Andraste's religion.

lilyonce
N3

The whole universe is...

Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2
Posts: 277 Likes: 125

Andraste's religion. Dec 11, 2016 22:11:04 GMT Heimdall, lumix19, and 2 more like this

Quote

Post by lilyonce on Dec 11, 2016 22:11:04 GMT

Let's exegete the chant of light. Ascendant theological interpretations of the chant are often literalist, selective, and removed from all historical context. A deeper understanding of the chant however may accompany an exegesis of the text. I have a compilation of quick personal notes that might give us a peak at the heart of andrastianism, concepts central to its practice, and what the faith could be if the faithful were to vigorously commit to Andraste's vision. Please add to the thread or pick up on something you find interesting.

Some history:

Andraste as a powerful mage working in league with other mages of the Alamarri tribes to perform powerful magic written of in the chant. Putting Andraste in her context is sensical to do and: Andraste had an experience of the maker-- a transcendent experience of the fade implying a powerful fade connection that would fit nicely with magical talent. Andraste experienced intense suffering and suffering in Thedas weakens the Veil thus increasing the likelihood of a transcendent experience. IRL a lot of people find God in their suffering. There is no scripture that condemns the Alamarri mages (who surely must have existed if Avvar culture is any indication). The Chant shares a great deal of mythos with Avvar religious traditions (in which mages have vital roles and connections to the Fade). The shared stories makes sense as Andraste was an Alamarri tribal (the ancestors of the Avvar) and if you want to speak about your experience or revelation of god its convenient to use the ready made language of your culture. (No need to dig six one foot wells. Just dig one six foot well).

It could also be that she performed the magic in the chant alone or with the contact of a fade spirit but these interpretations are problematic. If Andraste alone held the "sword of creation" why didn't she save herself from the Magisters when they captured her in Nevarra? Or why did this supposed fade spirit abandon her? It's possible she was a dreamer which would also fit w/ her experience of "the maker". It also would not negate the above exegesis. Rather, it would strengthen it.

Andraste's god-- the creator of the world in solidarity with the marginalized, enslaved, oppressed, poor, suffering. Andraste's host battling for justice, for paradise is potent imagery. Andrastians should be at war with imperialism, racism, oppression, exclusion, poverty, suffering, and the abuse of magic. Logically the maker is against Orlesian imperial rule and Tevinter too. It's plain as day when you read the story straight up but this theme is a bit neglected by andrastians.

The chant offers a vision of elven and human respect and cooperation in the Canticle of Shartan near unheard of in Thedas. Andraste embraces a relationship of elven and human equality (fighting as equals against Tevinter) even as they disbelieve her as the Maker's Bride. Serious implications for Orlesian treatment of the Dales and general treatment of elves in human society. Moreover, we have an image of humans fighting to free elves and elves fighting to free humans from slavery. We have a picture of the Maker's paradise as a paradise for all races.

a comment on theology:

Andraste's union to the maker in marriage expresses intimate connection between maker and creation in incarnational theology. Two are one but are still two. It does not negate or raise questions about her marriage to Maferath because the marriage to the maker is metaphor. Marriage union bears fruit-- good things in the world in this context.

The potency of suffering has a huge part in Andraste's story which has interesting implications for Andrastian theodicy and ultimate goods that can arise out of suffering and sacrifice. i.e. in relation to blood magic.

conclusion:

Andrastianism is subversive. A threat to power systems everywhere in Thedas so its always co-opted by oppressive regimes.

Andrastianism's strong focus on justice, egalitarianism, eschatological vision of paradise sets its apart from the other religious traditions of Thedas. Not that they are bad. They ask and answer different questions.

a comment on metaphysics:

The maker is not a localized being that exists somewhere in the fade like Yaweh in LDS church. The concept of the maker I propose is either the god of classical or neo-classical theism (process). Thus a coherent understanding of the Canticles of Silence and Threnodies arises (sin and it's punishment, separation from the maker). The problem of evil has a solution in the neo-classical view. Reincarnation themes present in verses like Andraste 14:11 in the chant make more sense (the Avvar also explicitly believe in reincarnation). The model of god Andraste uses is the model of what must have been the ideal Alamarri chieftain of the age. It's a way to express what is ultimately inexpressible-- transcendent experience. But other models of god will work. Key point is the maker is not a petty human male or a fade spirit.

Why is this important? The concept of god you adhere to leads to radically different interpretations of a religious text. If you understand the maker as a localized being-- petty narcissistic fade spirit king of ultimate power holed up in the Golden City-- you may be sympathetic to the Magisters and their desire to seize his power even if you don't agree with their methods or morals. If you understand the maker as (in relational process thought, for example) conscious itself-- something all beings partake in and are shaped by and so too shape-- the Magister's ego driven attempt to control conscious is deep sin. A big no no. This interpretation explains why the Chant condemns it. Its similar to mind control which is a big no no and constant worry of blood magic in Thedas. Note-- there may be some scenarios where mind control is ethical. That's debatable.

The black/golden city as a symbol in collective consciousness. Very Jungian. The world is supposed to be a certain way but it is not. It is seen everywhere in the fade but is near impossible to get to because a mass of demons and web of untrackable paths block the way. The chant says Andraste saw the black city. Interpretation-- Andraste saw the fade for what it was, so not a world of forms separate from the physical world but the pool of creation/source of the physical world in a non-dual way. Forgetting/remembering the maker & the black/golden city is metaphor for ignoring/living out the world purpose. The Chant of Light. golden/blackness duality. Similar to stories of the cracked vessel in Judaism. The cracked vessel loses its light and we must collect the shards of light and bring them back to god on the Sabbath.

a comment on the Old Gods

Dragons as omens or signs. Symbols in a collective consciousness. Signs reading. There is signs reading in Thedas. The divine names the coming age the dragon age because a dragon is spotted and the dragon age is suspected to be an age of upheaval and destruction. The Inquisitor is called the herald of andraste. DAI features tarot cards prominently. IRL cultures all over the world do signs/omens readings. That's the basis of astrology, for example. The story of Moses and the burning bush. The miracles of Jesus in the New Testament can be read as signs document. Key point is the dragons themselves don't do anything. They aren't gods. Likely this is merely power attributed to them by deep seated symbology. In the same way spirits and demons are archetypal reflections of conscious experience in Thedas. Dragons are magical creatures. they breath fire and ice etc. so they have a fade connection. If magic is part of a being and dragons have a powerful fade connection, you can probably learn magic "from" a dragon, from its blood. especially if you believe as many cultures do that life is in the blood and that life is this mystical thing ultimately. You'll think up some use for the blood of a great being or try to get your hands on it for obvious purposes. my two cents on that.

Last Edit: Dec 17, 2016 0:13:53 GMT by lilyonce

PapaCharlie9
N5

✜ Forge Mechanic

Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 3,851 Likes: 6,256

Andraste's religion. Dec 12, 2016 3:59:51 GMT

Quote

Post by PapaCharlie9 on Dec 12, 2016 3:59:51 GMT

Dec 11, 2016 22:11:04 GMT lilyonce said:

Let's exegete the chant of light.

Now that is a word I have never seen used before. In any context. And I've read a lot of Gene Wolfe!

Well played.

Inquisitor: Is that innuendo?
Sera: No, it's at the front!

PapaCharlie9
N5

✜ Forge Mechanic

Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 3,851 Likes: 6,256

Andraste's religion. Dec 12, 2016 4:04:14 GMT phoray likes this

Quote

Post by PapaCharlie9 on Dec 12, 2016 4:04:14 GMT

P.S. I think you would enjoy this lore exploration about Andraste. This is Part 3 of a three-parter, with links to parts 1 and 2 at the top:

ns.reddit.com/r/dragonage/comments/52nvq3/spoilers_all_all_were_silent_with_her_why/

I'm not qualified to comment on lore to this depth, but /u/eravas is.

Inquisitor: Is that innuendo?
Sera: No, it's at the front!

lilyonce N3 The whole universe is... Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2 Posts: 277 Likes: 125 lilyonce inherit 1185 0 Jan 11, 2020 17:30:36 GMT 125 lilyonce The whole universe is... 277 N3 Aug 24, 2016 23:34:41 GMT August 2016 lilyonce Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2	Andraste's religion. Dec 12, 2016 4:15:24 GMT Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by lilyonce on Dec 12, 2016 4:15:24 GMT Thank you for the link. And exegete is just a fancy word for textual and contextual criticism of religious texts.

lilyonce N3 The whole universe is... Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2 Posts: 277 Likes: 125 lilyonce inherit 1185 0 Jan 11, 2020 17:30:36 GMT 125 lilyonce The whole universe is... 277 N3 Aug 24, 2016 23:34:41 GMT August 2016 lilyonce Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2	Andraste's religion. Dec 12, 2016 16:14:15 GMT Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by lilyonce on Dec 12, 2016 16:14:15 GMT Added a few comments on the Old Gods, the Golden city, and a bit more on models of god to the OP.

lumix19 N1 Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, Jade Empire Posts: 2 Likes: 9 lumix19 inherit Male 1084 0 Mar 21, 2017 11:22:19 GMT 9 lumix19 2 N1 Aug 20, 2016 15:02:43 GMT August 2016 lumix19 Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, Jade Empire	Andraste's religion. Dec 12, 2016 20:03:50 GMT via mobile Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by lumix19 on Dec 12, 2016 20:03:50 GMT I like this analysis, thanks for thus - it's certainly thought-provoking.

lilyonce
N3

The whole universe is...

Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2
Posts: 277 Likes: 125

Andraste's religion. Dec 14, 2016 15:31:32 GMT

Quote

Post by lilyonce on Dec 14, 2016 15:31:32 GMT

More quick notes--

A (mystical) process view of the maker unifies multiple phenomena so I propose it as my theory of Thedas. The da setting is fantasy so I think a mystical view fits.

It unifies:
cole
spirit divine justinia
spirits at the temple of sacred ashes
flemeth/mythal
flemeth's daughters
shapeshifting
the well of sorrows
OGB kieran
andraste's experience of foreign memories
magic
time magic
willpower
the fade
the void
the forgotten ones
the crossroads
morrigan's experience of many worlds
the golden city
the taint
lyrium
reincarnation
orlesian masks
harmonizes andrastinanism and the qun w/ other cultures and phenomena too.

using the above metaphysic cole becoming humans makes sense.
an individualized aspect of conscious identifying with one aspect of consciousness over another, even over what it used to be or is. so cole can become human because being human is just identifying with that aspect of consciousness over other aspects of consciousness like spirit or demon.
this is also why cole knows things about people. his conscious isn't rooted in one concrete identity. It's more fluid.

spirit divine justinia in the fade. clearly not justinia as she was in the flesh but still her essence you might say.
hesserarian writes of an everlasting soul but if so where is the soul of justinia? why didn't it appear instead of this "imposter"? so i don't think its correct to think of spirit divine justinia as an imposter but rather as the ideal form (in the philosophical sense) of justinia. consciousness picking up the mask of justinia again but not to the extent that Cole does where Cole walks around the physical world and even becomes the thing in the flesh same thing with spirits at temple of sacred ashes. (but what about the ritual?) rituals don't do anything. they have no power on their own. they just facilitate a focus. that's why the lameos became ash wraiths. shapeshifting magic is the same thing.

flemeth hosting mythal's soul makes sense.
its not "ghost operating the machine" animism or demonic possession of mages rather its expanded consciousness. flemeth identifies as mythal/mythal identifies as flemeth because she understands herself, her persona as just that-- a mask in the ocean of consciousness that can be re-molded and shed at will. for this reason she can also shapeshift.

flemeth's body snatching makes sense.
because its not really body snatching. like she teaches her daughters to shapeshift she teaches them to identify with more than the individualized aspect of consciousness they are. to identify with other aspects of conscious. that can bring on memories of a different life. knowledge. etc.

the well of sorrows for inquisitor and morrigan also fit. and why flemeth can control them. expanded consciousness. identify with what is not just you. works with OGB Kieran too.

andraste's past life memories.
not really past life but memories that were not her own. identifying with consciousness other than the slice of it that she is.

magic is a willing into being/into substance/into conscious awareness what was not/what was an ideal form.

willpower-- how magic is done and where and by whom. causality, perception, memory, substance, time, space, concentration-- the stuff of consciousness-- & everything it takes for a mage to do magic. especially complex magic like time magic. so magic as conscious/energy enlarged to creativity if you prefer that image shaped and wielded by individualized aspects of conscious.

the fade as consciousness in flux/the maker & to borrow from plato, the form of the good. it's the world of forms and its the form of the good because thru it all else comes into being.

"the void" as unconsciousness. titus calls "gaps between dreams" void places in the fade. conscious requires an object of focus. unconscious is nothing as in "no thing". like dreamless sleep. being cast to the void or abyss means total non-existence. a big deals since generally in process thought the world and god are eternally in relationship-- world needs god. god needs world. so literally outside god and the world. (to mystics god is also unconsciousness. but god needs a world to become conscious and "complete". to be something more than an idea). But eventually we dream in sleep so no thing is ever unconscious forever. nothing and infinity are two sides of the same coin. so the forgotten ones (who supposedly were locked in the void) probably do speak to people in dreams.

the crossroads-- a dimension between worlds. put another way a place in conscious between realities. magic breaks down the veil so magical objects like eluvians are used to break down the veil between realities and can be used to travel between them. in process thought, god is all consciousness so many worlds are possible if not real. so morrigan's experience of a different world thru the eluvian makes sense.

the world purpose for the human etc is as embodied in the golden city. (the symbol may be different for a sea creature w/ a strong fade connection). joy, creation, beauty, art, justice, adventure. conscious has created this playground for itself and it wants the golden city. that's what it set out for when it made the world. that's why the black city visible in the fade wherever you go. the black city was black when the magisters got there and it was black because the world purpose has never been lived. there's always been sin.

the taint-- spiritual sickness. killing off corrupted versions of what the old gods symbolize. killing off a twisted humanity etc.

lyrium--world/forms link.

reincarnation-- "from these emerald waters doth life begin anew." at death you return to the maker/back to consciousness. conscious is always becoming, so you can be "reborn". existence is a choice.

on some level the orlesians in their culture probably understood themselves as expressions of a super conscious. the culture of mask wearing and playing the grand game can be viewed as metaphors for the one super conscious individualizing itself to partake in life. The persona is a mask and a mask hides one's real identity.

the qun-- the qun and andrastianism essentially say the same thing under this metaphysic. ex. loss of the self is the source of suffering. the chantry just says forgetting the maker is the cause of suffering. this interpretation of the qun is not definitive but looking at it from this perspective helps understand some passages that we have access to more fully IMO. And certainly the qun was not written as a political treatise or a psychology text. what the qunari have done with it is just what the qunari have done with it.

(about the world) "A great ashkaari during his travels came upon a village in the desert. There, he found the houses crumbling. The earth so dry and dead that the people tied themselves to each other for fear a strong wind would carry the ground out from under their feet. Nothing grew there except the bitter memory of gardens. The ashkaari stopped the first man he saw, and asked, "What happened here?" "Drought came. And the world changed from prosperity to ruin," the man told him. "Change it back." The ashkaari replied. The villager became angry then, believing the ashkaari mocked him, for no one could simply change the world on a whim. To which the ashkaari answered, "Then change yourself. You make your own world."
(not trolling. think time magic.) And so I don't think the qun is actually against magic.

Existence is a choice.
There is no chaos in the world, only complexity.
Knowledge of the complex is wisdom.
From wisdom of the world comes wisdom of the self.
Mastery of the self is mastery of the world. Loss of the self is the source of suffering.
Suffering is a choice, and we can refuse it.
It is in our own power to create the world, or destroy it.

When the Ashkaari looked upon the destruction wrought by locusts,
He saw at last the order in the world.
A plague must cause suffering for as long as it endures,
Earthquakes must shatter the land.
They are bound by their being.
Asit tal-eb. It is to be.
For the world and the self are one.
Existence is a choice.
A self of suffering, brings only suffering to the world.
It is a choice, and we can refuse it.

[...]
The statue resists the ebb and flow of the sea.
And is whittled away with each wave.
It protests the setting sun, and its face is burned looking upon it. It does not know itself.
Stubbornly, it resists wisdom and is transformed.
If you love purpose, fall into the tide. Let it carry you.
Do not fear the dark. The sun and the stars will return to guide you.
You have seen the greatest kings build monuments for their glory
Only to have them crumble and fade.
How much greater is the world than their glory?
The purpose of the world renews itself with each season. Each change only marks
A part of the greater whole.
The sea and the sky themselves:
Nothing special. Only pieces.

Last Edit: Dec 16, 2016 17:55:09 GMT by lilyonce

Announcements

Recent Threads

Post by lilyonce on Dec 11, 2016 22:11:04 GMT

Post by PapaCharlie9 on Dec 12, 2016 3:59:51 GMT

Post by PapaCharlie9 on Dec 12, 2016 4:04:14 GMT

Post by lilyonce on Dec 12, 2016 4:15:24 GMT

Post by lilyonce on Dec 12, 2016 16:14:15 GMT

Post by lumix19 on Dec 12, 2016 20:03:50 GMT

Post by lilyonce on Dec 14, 2016 15:31:32 GMT