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Post by akiza on Dec 28, 2016 5:34:47 GMT
Andraste may have been an host of Mythal like Flemeth was.She had the same Cap-crown Flemeth had when she appeared in DA2.
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Ponendus
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Post by Ponendus on Dec 29, 2016 2:43:13 GMT
Oh I'm totally with you OP. Not only do I believe Andraste is an OGB, I also believe she's still alive! Because it's fun to believe that.
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Post by gervaise21 on Dec 29, 2016 9:44:42 GMT
I thought it was interesting that the Disciples in Haven believed that Andraste had been reborn as a dragon. Then World of Thedas 2 tells us that the Neromenians believed their heroes were reborn as dragons, the Avaar (an offshoot of the Alamaari barbarians) believe in reincarnation of certain favoured individuals and we are shown the way this is meant to be brought about. I was never sure how exactly they knew the dead person was one of the "favoured" ones or whether it was just the decision of the tribal elders or augur but it seemed to be connected with a similar way in which their "gods" (spirits) could be called into the body of a mortal beast. Still the beliefs of the Avaar definitely tied in with those of the people in Haven, confirming the antiquity of the settlement, even if the Guardian seemed critical of their lack of faith.
Another thing to consider is the individual seems to have a better chance of retaining their identity if people remember them. The Avaar continuing to worship and offer prayers to their "god" allows it to return after being killed in our world in the same persona, whereas the reincarnated individual does not remember their former life except in dreams and visions. Whilst I don't know about Andraste, it would seem that could be the reason that Mythal was able to return and still remember her former self; because not only her priests but also the Dalish still remembered her. It could be why she recognised Lavellan as one of the People when Abelas did not. When you accuse her of not responding when they had cried out to her constantly for help, she says we don't know what we ask. Now we know that the "help" that Solas is going to give, presumably with the approval of Mythal, is tearing down the Veil and the death of the modern elves in order to restore the ancient ones and gain revenge on the Evanuris. There's gratitude for you.
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Post by doflamingodonquijote on Dec 30, 2016 10:22:36 GMT
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Post by oyabun on Dec 30, 2016 10:36:55 GMT
The Red lyrium idol had the face of Andraste? how creepy.
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Post by gervaise21 on Dec 30, 2016 11:27:59 GMT
Well it certainly seems to have the face of Flemeth/Mythal - whether that is also Andraste remains to be seen. The moment I first saw the red lyrium idol I thought it reminded me of a certain someone, so once it was confirmed that Flemeth was Mythal, then that seemed pretty much a given, particularly when we get all those references to Mythal doing something in the Deep Roads that likely freed the dwarves to become what they are today.
The problem with all that Chantry iconography is whether it is an actual depiction of the real person, a stylized image from the mind of the artist that may be based off a number of influences, including depictions of gods in old paintings, or an actual clue by the writers dropped in to either point us towards the truth or muddy the waters.
Take the depiction of Shartan in the stained glass window in the Redcliffe Chantry. What is he even doing there? The Chantry outlawed depictions of Shartan 700 years ago and all were removed apart from one in Val Royeaux where his ears were docked. Orlais was under control of Ferelden for a considerable time, so even if the locals hadn't been inclined to remove the image, surely the Orlesians would have insisted upon it? However, in placing his image at the head of the aisle the graphics people clearly did not understand how iconography in churches should work. Even if the Fereldens had wanted to acknowledge Shartan, they would not have put him in the place of honour. That should always be reserved for either the principle deity of the religion or the person to whom the building is dedicated. What would Ferelden have a Chantry dedicated to Shartan? It made no sense at all. Plus Shartan has always been known as a warrior and his most famous item is his sword, that was actually given to him by Andraste, so why show him as a robbed figure with a key? So if this was meant to be a clue, it is a very heavy handed one and completely out of keeping with the world it is meant to illustrate.
So Andraste having a crown that looks the same as Flemeth's could be a clue but could equally be some sort of generic symbol of leadership in Thedas. Or it could just be that the graphics department thought it looked cool, even that one designer was unaware of what another designer had used. However, that said, they have been dropping a number of hints that there are parallels between the life of Andraste and that of Flemeth/Mythal, the most obvious one being betrayal by her husband. I think it is going to likely be proven that whilst Elgar'nan didn't do the actual murder, he was the one responsible for setting it up. Also there is going to be something that links Minrathous to Mythal.
Singing is an important part of what is going on but may be unconnected in this case or a way of saying that Mythal was in tune with the deity. Lyrium has its own song and is said by the Chantry to be the voice of the Maker. Dwarves say the Stone sings. The Stone seems to be connected with Titans and lyrium is their blood. Lyrium bridges the gap between the waking world and the world of dreams. The Chantry also believe it is the essence of all creation. Darkspawn seem to be repelled by lyrium in its purest form.
Red lyrium has a song of its own, a corrupted song and thus the essence of destruction. It is connected with the Blight and sends people mad. It grows on living things like a cancer. I believe that red lyrium connects you to the Void, the antithesis of life. It is the same song as that of the archdemons.
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Post by secretrare on Jan 13, 2017 10:19:03 GMT
There does indeed seem to need to be a spell, otherwise the soul would jump to a child conceived by Morrigan from the Warden but outside of the ritual. Instead that child is perfectly normal when we meet him. Presumably it is her knowledge of this spell and the way it allows the soul of the old god to home in on the foetus, that makes her declare that there is no limit to Corypheus' range when it comes to him jumping to a Warden or controlling them. Yet apparently there was a limit to Flemeth's ability to possess Morrigan from a distance, as Morrigan says she will be safer if she doesn't go with you to confront Flemeth. Then it turns out she totally misunderstood those references in the Grimoire, as Flemeth says the soul could not be forced on the unwilling. This is why I've always assume it is because Cory is controlling the mind of the Warden that the jump is successful, since essentially the Warden is willing because their mind is under his control, whereas a Warden is not willing to accept the soul of the arch demon and that is why it is unsuccessful. She offers no real insight or explanation into how taking said soul from a tainted vessel and putting it into another tainted vessel would result in an uncorrupted being. Honestly, entire premise and expected outcomes of the DR don't seem particularly well thought out. At first i thought it had sense because the taint inherited by the child had the immunity of a GW so that may help the old god soul to not be corrupted into an archdemon,but then the Architect made his explanation in DAA where he said that he used a little quantity of GW blood on the original old god but he became an Archdemon.meaning that this dragons are totally intolerant to the corruption.
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Post by xerrai on Jan 13, 2017 20:23:40 GMT
Am I the only one that thinks it would be super if Andraste is what she appeared to be? A former-slave warrior rising up against her oppressors while forging her own destiny and not some ancient god interfering in mortal affairs because mortals can't be expected to do anything right themselves?
Yes?....No?
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Post by gervaise21 on Jan 13, 2017 22:05:07 GMT
I'm with you on that one. I really don't want Andraste to be anything other than a human prophet at a particular time in history. I also don't want Shartan to be anything other than an elven slave who led his people to freedom. That makes them far more interesting to me than being the possible reincarnation of some ancient being or an ancient being under an alias. I want some ordinary people in the world who do heroic acts which result in them becoming legends, like Garahel. That is something that can be inspirational to later generations.
However, having established through Flemeth/Mythal that it is possible for an apparently dead entity to be reincarnated, plus all this body hopping of arch demons and ancient magisters, that unfortunately leads to all this speculation, which for all we know may actually be true.
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Post by javeart on Jan 14, 2017 0:36:53 GMT
Nah, all our PCs are perfect examples of capable mortals, I want something spectacular for Andraste And I love the idea that DA is the story of how nothing is what it looks like, and how nobody got the story entirely right, only a piece of it, so that by the time that we get to the end (20 or 30 games from now ) we're going to look to DAO and say "wow, they really didn't now shit" And I have to say that while I still think that the safe bet is mage+dreamer/spirit, I'm getting fond of the OGB tehory honestly, thinking more about it, the whole business with the blight, the sister born from a misterious "alchemy advisor" who might "have been whispering of the old gods" and that eventualy died in very misterious circumstances too, does looks fishy So, what if: maybe the OGB was her sister, but "they" (just some "they" ) needed the armies and political alliances that only the legitimate daughter could have, so "they" tainted Andraste and then killed Halliserre so the OG soul went to her. I don't know, something like whatever Cory did to posses Larius' body . And that's why it was only then when Andraste started getting the odd dreams and also why she had a hard time conceiving, not because of a sickness of the lungs, but because she was blighted I'm not being realy serious, I know nothing of lore, but I'd love it if Andraste's true story was something crazy like that everything about her story sounds extra wierd, there has to be something there
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Post by Iakus on Jan 14, 2017 2:00:42 GMT
Am I the only one that thinks it would be super if Andraste is what she appeared to be? A former-slave warrior rising up against her oppressors while forging her own destiny and not some ancient god interfering in mortal affairs because mortals can't be expected to do anything right themselves? Yes?....No? I'd be willing to go as far as Andraste being a mage.
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Post by xerrai on Jan 14, 2017 2:54:54 GMT
Am I the only one that thinks it would be super if Andraste is what she appeared to be? A former-slave warrior rising up against her oppressors while forging her own destiny and not some ancient god interfering in mortal affairs because mortals can't be expected to do anything right themselves? Yes?....No? I'd be willing to go as far as Andraste being a mage. I would be too. Given the constant contradictory information that the two Chantries have, I would not be surprised if Tevinter got at least a part of it right. Or it could be that while she is not technically a mage, she had the favor of some residential spirits that were willing to aid her. I would also be willing to theorize that was 'marked' by an artifact of the evanuris much like the Inquisitor, but was interpreted as divine intervention by her followers. But by this point I'm just spouting personal fancy. For all I know, it could be that she really was a vessel for Mythal's soul or whatever. It's just that I hope its not, and that Andraste really was a human woman with a vision.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jan 14, 2017 12:53:37 GMT
Would also add that Andraste was never simply a slave like Shartan. So far as I can tell she never left the south before her abduction from Nevarra. Essentially she was always the daughter of a chieftain. She had already been married to Maferath to secure an alliance between the barbarian tribes across the south before her father's death, after which she briefly fell into the hands of Tevinter slavers. Maferath needed her for the warriors that belonged to clans who were only loyal to her, so he negotiated her release from the slavers, probably by simple expedient of paying for it because it is common practice to ransom people of rank. That is the historical truth - the pretty little Chantry version of some humble girl from a fishing village, who was taken into slavery in Tevinter,escaped her captors, travelled back home and then married a chieftain is pious myth.
It is likely that Maferath's jealousy was genuine but not of the Maker so much as the hold she had on the horde. He wanted to call a halt to the Exalted March and knew the only way to achieve this was to put her out of the picture in such a way as would allow him to keep the loyalty of her clans. The important part is that she always had their loyalty by reason of her birth not simply because they believed in her vision. However, given the prominent place that the Auger enjoys in the Avaar clan and they are an offshoot of the Alaamari, it is likely Andraste was a mage and was regarded by her clans in much the same light as an Auger: she could contact the gods and receive advice and other forms of assistance for the clan. Each clan seems to have their own particular patron god and so for Andraste this was the Maker. This would account for why the clans continued to worship their owns gods in addition to the Maker after her death and it was only the rise of Drakon and the introduction of his version of the faith as the only one allowed that put a stop to this.
So it is perfectly possible to explain the whole of Andraste's story with conventional beliefs from among the Alaamari at that time, without the need for her to be an OGB or an earlier incarnation of Mythal. However, I will concede that the Avaar also believe that certain individuals are destined to be reborn at a later date, so Alamaari probably believed that too and Andraste being the reincarnation of an earlier hero figure would be entirely consistent with that belief.
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Post by Cirvante on Jan 16, 2017 19:23:27 GMT
Same crown and same hair color, Knight-Commander Meredith is Andraste FUCKING CONFIRMED!!! Seriously though, the Primeval Thaig with the tainted Lyrium and the idol is older than the First Blight and Andraste. And while normal Lyrium sings the Titan's Hymn, the red stuff has a different song, possibly connected to the Old Gods' song. I think Andraste was likely a powerful mage. Possibly touched or possessed by a faith spirit. I highly doubt she was an OGB, since the Wardens had just figured out how to permanently kill Dumat by using the taint on themselves to trigger a Taking You With Me. They had an Archdemon who kept coming back to fuck them and saving their own lifes or preserving it's soul were probably the last things on their mind at that time.
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Post by oyabun on Jan 19, 2017 15:30:06 GMT
Am I the only one that thinks it would be super if Andraste is what she appeared to be? A former-slave warrior rising up against her oppressors while forging her own destiny and not some ancient god interfering in mortal affairs because mortals can't be expected to do anything right themselves? Yes?....No? I don't think the devs intended for Andraste to be just a mortal she had clearly some kind of mystical powers that weren't just a form of conventional magic.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jan 19, 2017 22:04:42 GMT
She could simply be a Dreamer. These people have powers beyond that of conventional mages and have become increasingly rare down the years, so her contemporaries may not have encountered such person before. However, that person is still just a mortal. Beyond having dreams and visions, communicating with some spirit entity in the Fade, which are consistent with being a mage and particularly a Dreamer, there is no evidence of Andraste doing anything more remarkable. If the Canticle of Shartan is anything to go by, she was not even capable of countering the magic that was used against her warriors by the Tevinter mages (which might argue against her being a mage) and it was left to Shartan and his elves to save the day.
The only aspect that was unique to Andraste and is constantly emphasised is her singing. That may be significant in view of the prominence given to music and enticing song in the lore of the Old Gods, Arch demons, lyrium and red lyrium but it is equally possible that she was simply a beautiful singer.
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Post by dayze on Jan 27, 2017 1:30:31 GMT
Andraste may have been a mage or a dreamer with no education or knowledge of magic who focused it through her singing/being a bard?
The Meredith thing is kind of strange, hair, features, crown, sword(?) both leaders of a military group against mages. Both associated with an elf, both betrayed.
Makes you wonder if something was going on there, what the point of the parallels were.
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Post by zarrokhai on Jan 27, 2017 14:08:00 GMT
Dunno whether this has been pointed out already but remember back in DA II: Legacy we had a small quest called Dumat's Altar or something. That quest had us collecting trinkets and placing them on the altar or we could alternatively defile the altar. Whatever choice we made, the altar responded and if you read the journal entry for the quest, it said(if you placed the trinkets) "Sacrifices made at the altar of Dumat appear to have pleased the old god. The altar now appears dormant." Unless this bit of info was retconned, that means Dumat is still alive in some form out there. So there's a high-probability that Andraste was indeed an OGB and that she held Dumat's soul in her. It would also explain the voice she heard(whom she called the Maker) that no one else did.
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