eternalgoddess
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Post by eternalgoddess on Dec 21, 2016 11:14:00 GMT
So I just found out that she was born a year after Dumat final death that's not a coincidence right?
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Post by shechinah on Dec 21, 2016 11:41:19 GMT
I don't think that would necessarily be not a coincidence. I imaging there would be quite a lot of children born after such an event especially since the first Blight was known as the longest and bloodiest in history.
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Post by javeart on Dec 21, 2016 12:10:34 GMT
Wouldn't it be fun though? I like extravagant theories, and I have to say that I've never picked up on that but, for absolutely no good reason (I can admit it ) I always thought that when Cole says "It was wrong to hide it in the child, It hurt her" he could be talking about Andraste, though I imagined that if that was the case it would be more about visions or something like that. But Kieran had odd dreams too after all. I know that piece of banter it's a reference to a movie, but it could be something more I have big hopes for the true story of Andraste turning to be something really interesting
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Post by gervaise21 on Dec 21, 2016 14:47:21 GMT
Eventually the truth is going to come out about Andraste. I don't think she is an OGB but rather she had some sort of encounter with an entity at the time her half sister died. It was after that she started having the dreams and visions. Plus she later was said to have connected the incident in some way with her step-mother hearing whispers of the Old Gods. The scholars maintain this was heresy, so I'm unclear whether Andraste later recanted her testimony about this or whether the Chantry have simply supressed it.
There is also the peculiar speech of the spirit impersonating her mother Brona in the Gauntlet. It claims she had a vision of Andraste's life whilst she was still in the womb, yet still could not prevent her death, suggesting that everything that happened was fated to do so. That in turn would suggest that the entity known as the Maker was jerking everyone's strings, including that of Maferath, to make things turn out as they did.
Of course, that would fly in the face of the Chantry dogma that the Maker abandoned humanity after the event because of their faithlessness. Unless her betrayal was intended as a test of her followers. In which case the only ones who passed the test were Shartan and his elite squad of elves who went with him to Minrathous and attempted to free her, whilst the Chant suggests that the barbarians just tamely abandoned her to her fate.
I do wonder if the Tevinter hierarchy suspected that Andraste might be the vessel of a powerful spirit and that is why they burned her. It was certainly the only sure fire way they could ensure that she couldn't be resurrected by a spirit, either as a living woman or an undead one.
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Post by secretrare on Dec 21, 2016 15:01:18 GMT
When the writers will reveal the name of the Dumat killer and show it's tomb everyone will accept that the Archdemon was eradicated in body and soul.Plus Gervaise21 is right Andraste did not had any vision until her sister died,so it is possible that she entered in contact with a different kind of entity.
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Post by phoray on Dec 21, 2016 15:09:19 GMT
I kinda think that they've decided the world is different by Dragon Age Inquisition and that the games themselves can't count much as canon. They now have the Dragon Age Bible/Handbook to refer to. They didn't have it before. It could be that at the time of Origins, the Dalish Creators were just another culture's religion. No big. Then by the end of DA2 thybwere firming things up, and it's finally legit and legible stuff by Inquisition. If that made any sense.
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Post by lobselvith8 on Dec 21, 2016 20:04:52 GMT
So I just found out that she was born a year after Dumat final death that's not a coincidence right? Some have speculated that the OGB ritual may have originated with Andraste, and that she was the precedence used for Asha'bellanar to inform Morrigan on what to do.
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Post by gervaise21 on Dec 21, 2016 22:23:44 GMT
The remains of Dumat were used by the Wardens to entrap Corypheus, although that doesn't prove anything except the corpse must still have had some signature to it that attracted him to its location.
To my mind she was more likely to have been an earlier vessel of Mythal than the host of Dumat but may be Andraste was simply unique to herself. Just because one person was the host of an earlier entity, doesn't mean that every significant person in Thedas has to be as well. If Andraste was the vessel of Dumat it seems very odd that she should have been so critical of the Old Gods and Dumat in particular. It would be a really bad case of self hatred.
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Post by Heimdall on Dec 21, 2016 22:50:01 GMT
The one thing that makes this a bit of a problem is that the First Blight was supposedly when the Wardens learned that an Archdemon can be killed by a Warden who has taken the Joining.
So this would mean that someone concocted the dark ritual just in time for the Wardens to make their first successful attempt to kill Dumat. So someone would have had to know the Joining would work and preempt the Wardens.
In which case, we might wonder why they were not able to have such incredible timing in all subsequent Blights and why no figures similar in importance and influence have emerged from each of them like Andraste. And does the Warden method even work?
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Post by doflamingodonquijote on Dec 22, 2016 1:11:20 GMT
This is impossible Andraste can't be the vessel of Dumat because that Old god was murdered by the Sentinel Warden whom armor is in the Black marsh(don't ask me why the armor was there and not in Wheissaupt because I don't know,I know nothing of that Warden).
I think Flemeth wanted to save Urthemiel to give it to Solas and then use them both,she never attempted to save Toth and Andhoral(and she was around at the time)
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Post by gervaise21 on Dec 22, 2016 11:28:22 GMT
To be honest I think it has been revealed somewhere that originally the means to kill the arch demon was just going to be some special sword. Then the writers changed their minds and decided to introduce the idea of the ultimate sacrifice. That created a problem in that some players might object to there being no way out of this, so they came up with the idea of the Dark Ritual as an optional reprieve for the Wardens involved. Which was the real reason why this had never occurred during previous Blights; because it was just a plot device for DAO.
The idea of the soul jumping to the nearest tainted creature made some sense in explaining how the Wardens realised what needed to be done to counter it. What made less sense was the explanation for the OGB. Even with her knowledge of soul splitting, it is hard to understand how Flemeth would know that the Warden conceiving a child would allow the soul to by-pass all Wardens and darkspawn in the vicinity and home in on the foetus instead. Then the regeneration of Corypheus made even less sense since he was jumping to a Warden with a soul, which we had previously been told should have destroyed them both.
That said, it was revealed in Jaws of Hakkon that the Avaar believe certain favoured individuals are destined to be reborn. Apparently the Augurs even know about this in advance, so they can undertake the necessary rituals to allow this to happen. I seem to recall that the individual remembers nothing of their previous life when they are reborn. (I'll have to check that one). So Andraste was from a culture (the Avaar descended from the same origins as the Alamaari) that believe in reincarnation and it is possible that she was an earlier hero reborn, not an OGB but perhaps someone from barbarian folklore.
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Post by Kantr on Dec 22, 2016 13:57:24 GMT
The idea of the soul jumping to the nearest tainted creature made some sense in explaining how the Wardens realised what needed to be done to counter it. What made less sense was the explanation for the OGB. Even with her knowledge of soul splitting, it is hard to understand how Flemeth would know that the Warden conceiving a child would allow the soul to by-pass all Wardens and darkspawn in the vicinity and home in on the foetus instead. Then the regeneration of Corypheus made even less sense since he was jumping to a Warden with a soul, which we had previously been told should have destroyed them both. Isn't there mention of some spell that needs to be done as well to call the soul into the embryo? Maybe because cory is human and was a magister he knows of a way not to get his soul destroyed. After all possession doesn't kill the demon doing it.
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Post by gervaise21 on Dec 22, 2016 21:24:59 GMT
There does indeed seem to need to be a spell, otherwise the soul would jump to a child conceived by Morrigan from the Warden but outside of the ritual. Instead that child is perfectly normal when we meet him. Presumably it is her knowledge of this spell and the way it allows the soul of the old god to home in on the foetus, that makes her declare that there is no limit to Corypheus' range when it comes to him jumping to a Warden or controlling them. Yet apparently there was a limit to Flemeth's ability to possess Morrigan from a distance, as Morrigan says she will be safer if she doesn't go with you to confront Flemeth. Then it turns out she totally misunderstood those references in the Grimoire, as Flemeth says the soul could not be forced on the unwilling. This is why I've always assume it is because Cory is controlling the mind of the Warden that the jump is successful, since essentially the Warden is willing because their mind is under his control, whereas a Warden is not willing to accept the soul of the arch demon and that is why it is unsuccessful.
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Post by doflamingodonquijote on Dec 22, 2016 21:45:33 GMT
Nah that doesn't make sense at all the ritual work for plot reasons and nothing more.If it was just a matter of will then by placing an unconscious GW near the dying Archdemon(killed by a non GW) that would have created a merged Warden-Old god abomination.
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Post by akiza on Dec 25, 2016 2:02:42 GMT
There does indeed seem to need to be a spell, otherwise the soul would jump to a child conceived by Morrigan from the Warden but outside of the ritual. Instead that child is perfectly normal when we meet him. Presumably it is her knowledge of this spell and the way it allows the soul of the old god to home in on the foetus, that makes her declare that there is no limit to Corypheus' range when it comes to him jumping to a Warden or controlling them. Yet apparently there was a limit to Flemeth's ability to possess Morrigan from a distance, as Morrigan says she will be safer if she doesn't go with you to confront Flemeth. Then it turns out she totally misunderstood those references in the Grimoire, as Flemeth says the soul could not be forced on the unwilling. This is why I've always assume it is because Cory is controlling the mind of the Warden that the jump is successful, since essentially the Warden is willing because their mind is under his control, whereas a Warden is not willing to accept the soul of the arch demon and that is why it is unsuccessful. She offers no real insight or explanation into how taking said soul from a tainted vessel and putting it into another tainted vessel would result in an uncorrupted being. Honestly, entire premise and expected outcomes of the DR don't seem particularly well thought out.
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Post by Heimdall on Dec 25, 2016 12:01:30 GMT
A thought, maybe it isn't the taint at all that draws the soul to the child exactly? I mean, it can't just be any Warden's child, it has to be the one that strikes down the Archdemon, right? Perhaps Morrigan's spell exploits the blood connection between the Warden and their child to create an untainted channel that draws the Old God soul when it attempts to enter the Warden.
(Been a long time since I actually listened to Morrigan's explanation)
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Post by Prince on Dec 25, 2016 17:37:08 GMT
A thought, maybe it isn't the taint at all that draws the soul to the child exactly? I mean, it can't just be any Warden's child, it has to be the one that strikes down the Archdemon, right? Perhaps Morrigan's spell exploits the blood connection between the Warden and their child to create an untainted channel that draws the Old God soul when it attempts to enter the Warden. (Been a long time since I actually listened to Morrigan's explanation) The Archdemon can be killed by a female warden as well which imply that the spell doesn't rely on any parental blood connection with the AD killer,it is just the taint that calls the Archdemon soul into the child,but that doesn't make sense either because within a corrupted host the soul shouldn't have been able to reborn free from the taint.
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Post by oyabun on Dec 25, 2016 18:21:27 GMT
I've also noticed this issue.
I can find some logic in the concept of the sacrifice in DAO(
But....there's no logic at all within the DR....because apparently the spirit of this entity (Urthemiel is the name) for some reasons if it goes into a corrupted unborn host it does not become an AD but is instead cleaned from the taint despite his host being still corrupted until birth....
And on top of that it does not even override the original soul of the host because the writers said so... to sanitize and later use Flemeth to nullify the choice.
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Post by Lulupab on Dec 25, 2016 18:39:07 GMT
Why not just a mage though? Does she has to be an old god?
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Post by gervaise21 on Dec 25, 2016 19:58:17 GMT
There is no reason why Andraste needs to be the reincarnation of an Old God and it makes very little sense if she was. As I say, everything she preaches is against the Old Gods, which would be odd if she was one.
The idea that Andraste was a mage seems far more likely. Tevinter believe she was one and a mage is far more likely to have been prey to these visions and dreams that she had. If she was a mage, then likely she was a Dreamer and that would account for her "trances". It also makes a nice irony if the southern Chantry persecuted mages and considered magic a curse when in fact Andraste was a mage. She never calls magic a curse but rather a gift of the Maker. Her criticism is of the abuse of power and misuse of magic, which would be in keeping with the view of a mage who used it responsibly. However, against that idea, there is the fact that she never personally seems to be shown as using magic, apart from the beauty of her song. Of course that could be because Drakon and his tame Divine had all such references removed from their approved Chant but it is equally possible that she was a non-mage touched by a faith spirit (as Seekers are). After all, Drakon also claimed to have a vision from the Maker/Andraste and he was a non-mage. (Mind you, I think his was a false prophesy and was either totally fabricated or came from some other source than Andraste).
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Post by javeart on Dec 25, 2016 20:29:43 GMT
She doesn't need to be anything but a mage and she probably is nothing but a mage, that's sure what seems more likely right now, but it would be fun if she was something more, particularly if she is something hard to imagine, like an old god One thing though, in this (highly unlikely, ok ) scenario, she doesn't need to be and old god, does she? I never thought of Kieran as an old god, just a boy who carries a piece of one of them. For me OGB it's not OG, or is it? In fact, she might not have kept that piece either, maybe someone took the piece of the old god, erased the memories of odd dreams associated whit it and put in their place new visions Again, it's not serious speculation, just that I thought the idea was fun when I read the OP
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Heimdall
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Post by Heimdall on Dec 25, 2016 21:47:59 GMT
A thought, maybe it isn't the taint at all that draws the soul to the child exactly? I mean, it can't just be any Warden's child, it has to be the one that strikes down the Archdemon, right? Perhaps Morrigan's spell exploits the blood connection between the Warden and their child to create an untainted channel that draws the Old God soul when it attempts to enter the Warden. (Been a long time since I actually listened to Morrigan's explanation) The Archdemon can be killed by a female warden as well which imply that the spell doesn't rely on any parental blood connection with the AD killer,it is just the taint that calls the Archdemon soul into the child,but that doesn't make sense either because within a corrupted host the soul shouldn't have been able to reborn free from the taint. Well there goes my theory, pity
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Post by gervaise21 on Dec 25, 2016 21:55:53 GMT
Well leaving aside the specific old gods of Tevinter, it is possible that Andraste was a reincarnated earlier hero of the Alamaari, which was in keeping with their beliefs, or indwelt by a spirit of one of their reincarnated "gods". When we visit the Avaar and we are told about reincarnation, there was a reference somewhere to the fact that those reincarnated do not directly remember their former life but only through dreams and portents. That would definitely fit with what we are told about Andraste.
As I've also pointed out above, may be the reason why Tevinter decided to burn her was because they suspected she was the vessel of a spirit and wanted to ensure there could be no resurrection.
Something to also consider about Andraste is the possible link between her family and elven survivors of Fen'Harel's rebellion, who didn't go into uthenera but instead lived on among their human neighbours and likely had relationships with them that ultimately resulted in the "pure" elves disappearing and only elf blooded descendants. Her mother Brona, who originated from an area that now encompasses the Dales, possessed Glandivalis which she passed on to Andraste. Glandivalis means "Blade of Faith" (or something similar) and according to the Dalish was given by Andraste to Shartan as her Champion of Freedom. An elven tablet recovered from the Temple of Mythal contains a elvish poem, elements of which are found in a later Alamaari war poem and from there find their way into a Denerim lullaby(and Denerim claims to be the birthplace of Andraste). This speaks of being committed to "inevitable and troubling freedom", in the original version, while the last line speaking of "when the wolf won, we lost the People to war" is found in the lullaby as "When wolfen wan, we wastrels warred." The word "Glandival" also appears in the original elvish, confirming the meaning of Glandivalis. Since no one, even the Dalish, were able to approach the Temple without being attacked, and the tablet was found within the complex, it seems unlikely that this tablet was the source of the Alamaari poem, so it could only have come from a separate group of elven survivors.
It seems to me that the writers would not have bothered with these references if there wasn't some sort of significance to them. Add in the preface to the Canticle of Shartan, when it says elements of an earlier elven folktale appear in it about a trickster warrior who fought against tyrants, and it would appear that there is some sort of link between Fen'Harel and Andraste. I have a suspicion that the "Maker" who spoke to Andraste was actually Solas speaking to her from the Fade, based off the Dalish belief in the Canticle of Shartan that the Maker was more concerned with the cause of freedom and that was the "faith" he was promoting.
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Post by sageoflife on Dec 26, 2016 23:41:50 GMT
Leaving aside the Andraste issue for a moment, there is a possibility that Dumat was reincarnated as a human. Dumat's death throws alone killed at least seven Wardens, so no one actually knows for sure that the Warden who dealt the killing blow died as a result, and that he wasn't just one of the several Wardens killed by Dumat's death throws.
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Post by gervaise21 on Dec 27, 2016 10:08:48 GMT
Was there some greater connection between the fate of Dumat and Corypheus? The intelligent darkspawn only became known to the Wardens AFTER Dumat was killed. So what were the ancient Magisters doing during the 200 years of the 1st Blight? They could resist the call of the arch demon but you'd think they would have made themselves known at some point during that time when the armies of darkspawn were matching across Thedas and their homeland of Tevinter in particular. Corypheus' ability to control the minds of Grey Wardens could have proved disastrous had he employed it to control them in the fight against Dumat. He apparently still spoke with reverence of Dumat when they eventually encountered him and they used the carcass of the archdemon as bait to lure him into their prison. Was it only the death of Dumat that actually freed Corypheus and the other Magisters from his thrall and up until then he was incapable of independent thought?
Another interesting thing is mentioned in the correspondence of the Grey Wardens of that time. Sashmiri, the Senior Warden who realised the danger posed by Corypheus and was directly responsible for trapping him, also claimed to have been studying an ancient weapon that they thought might assist in entrapping him. The knowledge of what the spell they used to achieve this was meant to have died with them but it would seem it had something to do with Dumat's remains as they would apparently be destroyed at the same time as they died, meaning that it would be impossible for Corypheus to learn how to break free from the prison from inside it but only, as it transpired, through outside agents breaking in. There may be something in that. Could there be a clue as to how Solas managed to entrap all the Evanuris simultaneously and why, despite being such all powerful mages, they were unable to break free by their own efforts?
Also, what could the ancient weapon be that Sashamiri was studying?
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