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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Dec 22, 2016 20:17:22 GMT
This probably belongs in The Lobby(Off-Topic), but since some of the in-depth critiques are about DAI, I figured I could talk my way into posting it here instead. As you should already know from your YouTube subscription to Extra Credits ... wait, what? What do you mean you don't know what Extra Credits is??! Go subscribe right now! Extra Credits is a master's level course on game development and what makes good game design good. Every time I write a post that says, "A good game should do X ...", I learned X from Extra Credits. Seriously, if you don't look at any other video recommended in this post, at least look at Extra Credits ( www.youtube.com/channel/UCCODtTcd5M1JavPCOr_Uydg). So, as I was saying, narrator Dan recently posted a video saying that Extra Credits was going on holiday hiatus, and in the meantime, why don't you try some of Dan's favorite channels for game dev discussion and game critique? Here is his list. I've taken a quick look at all of them and there is some good stuff on DAI in there, particularly from Noah Gervais. He also has an in-depth video about Baldur's Gate. The very last link is a blog rather than a channel, hosted by an anonymous game dev, who being anonymous, is free to make candid comments about how games are really developed, even when such observations are negative. Not every one of these channels has something about Bioware, but even the one's that don't do make general observations about good game design that is relevant to what DA4 could and should be. Check 'em out! DAN RECOMMENDS: Game Maker’s Toolkit www.youtube.com/channel/UCqJ-Xo29CKyLTjn6z2XwYAwHow Did They Do That? www.youtube.com/channel/UCEas6ztXcwEkbaClw4zof9gErrant Signal www.youtube.com/channel/UCm4JnxTxtvItQecKUc4zRhQNoah Gervais www.youtube.com/channel/UC5CYeHPLer3lbEhgonvbbAASuper Bunnyhop www.youtube.com/channel/UCWqr2tH3dPshNhPjV5h1xRwInnuendo Studios www.youtube.com/channel/UC5fdssPqmmGhkhsJi4VcckAAsk a Game Developer askagamedev.tumblr.com/askagamedev.tumblr.com/post/150314247111/ask-a-game-devs-frequently-asked-questions |
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Dec 22, 2016 20:56:49 GMT
Apropos the cone of silence over DA4 ... from the Ask a Game Developer blog response to "Why all the secrecy?": "Mommy, I want to be a forum lawyer when I grow up!"  |
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Post by Hrungr on Dec 23, 2016 0:28:00 GMT
Thanks for posting this here - gonna start checking 'em out tonight.  |
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Post by colfoley on Dec 23, 2016 0:40:14 GMT
I'll have to check these out tonight myself. Someone who is interested in Game Design, especially from the writing standpoint...yeah I might be looking forward to all sorts of videos on this topic.
Anyways to adress the one specific comment about game's cut content I have noticed a rather interesting trend. Now all this I am saying with the proviso that I do not hang out on movie forums the way I do here.
When I was younger I remember the trailers for the movie Flubber. And there was one scene that stuck in my head was..and then in the movie, bam, that scene was not in the movie. Fast forward to recent times and I read an article of 'the twelve scenes which were not in Rogue One'. Again, talking about cut content. Except...there does not seem to be the amount of backlash and outcry over cut scenes in movies anywhere near as they are in the game inudstry, and bioware in particular. Where one feature of Inquisition which was shown off in a demo, which was not even supposed to be public, was cut from the final game and the forums have gone bonkers. Still, as of quite recently, acusing BioWare of making bad games or downright lying to people. Then why isn't the same true for movies? Especially given that making a game is a lot more chaotic, and precise, then making a movie in the first place. It boggles the mind.
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Hrungr
Twitter Guru
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Post by Hrungr on Dec 23, 2016 6:58:09 GMT
I've watched a number of Extra Credits videos before but now they're in my sub list.  There's a lot of thread-worthy discussion to be had... - Blank Slate vs More Defined Protagonist and their effect on nuanced relationships. - Core vs Casual Players and how early should you introduce the depth of your systems. - Character Progression and Narrative. - Fun Non-Combat Experiences. - More engaging dialogue with important NPCs with combat-like mechanics. Something they joked about recently on twitter... |
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Dec 23, 2016 20:13:39 GMT
I've watched a number of Extra Credits videos before but now they're in my sub list. There's a lot of thread-worthy discussion to be had... - Blank Slate vs More Defined Protagonist and their effect on nuanced relationships. - Core vs Casual Players and how early should you introduce the depth of your systems. - Character Progression and Narrative. - Fun Non-Combat Experiences. - More engaging dialogue with important NPCs with combat-like mechanics. Something they joked about recently on twitter... Great list! A few more to consider: - Choice & Conflict, Choices vs. Decisions, The Feeling of Agency, The Illusion of Choice, How Much Agency Do Games Need? - Spectacle Creep (each installment of a franchise must be bigger and badder than the previous -- this is not sustainable) - Bartle's Taxonomy (why some people love shard collecting and others hate it with a passion) - Open World Design - Negative Possibility Space - When Exploration Lets Players Down - Understanding The Fantasy - Quest Design parts I & II - The Skinner Box (true evil) - When Difficult Is Fun - Bad Writing - Balancing for Skill I could probably add another 50 or so, but all of these together provide a good analytical framework for examining DAI. We can see where DAI does well and where it falls short, according to the lessons from those EC videos. |
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Post by Gwydden on Dec 24, 2016 16:37:19 GMT
Ironically, I've been subscribed to Extra Credits for a while but I mostly just check out their Extra History videos. Maybe I should correct that.
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Post by lundajfs on Dec 25, 2016 13:10:56 GMT
"- When Difficult Is Fun"
This one should be a short video: NEVER.
Not in real life, not in fantasy, never.
But for masochists and psychotics that think that challenge is a valid exerience because reasons put 4 difficult settings, as long as the easiest means that by the time you realize you were in a battle/puzzle/quest it already finished. The Qun says the struggle is an illusion, I disagree the struggle is boring, just boring, no matter how it is done, it is always boring. The one thing all games should offer no matter the genre is the lack of challenge for those healthy people who are not masochists, who were not enraptured by existence's stockholm syndrome. You need for a fact to train your body and mind to bear frustration/suffering/pain, be it when you're a child or an adult, but to enjoy the struggle is just masochism, if it is not needed and you seek frustration it is just plain masochism. Even if you do it with a game it is still BDSM.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Dec 25, 2016 20:56:00 GMT
"- When Difficult Is Fun" This one should be a short video: NEVER. Not in real life, not in fantasy, never. But for masochists and psychotics that think that challenge is a valid exerience because reasons put 4 difficult settings, as long as the easiest means that by the time you realize you were in a battle/puzzle/quest it already finished. The Qun says the struggle is an illusion, I disagree the struggle is boring, just boring, no matter how it is done, it is always boring. The one thing all games should offer no matter the genre is the lack of challenge for those healthy people who are not masochists, who were not enraptured by existence's stockholm syndrome. You need for a fact to train your body and mind to bear frustration/suffering/pain, be it when you're a child or an adult, but to enjoy the struggle is just masochism, if it is not needed and you seek frustration it is just plain masochism. Even if you do it with a game it is still BDSM. Uh, no. It's not about enjoying the struggle, it's about the value of an achievement being greater the more effort required to attain it. Sure, there is a popular mentality of, "No Pain, No Gain," where the pain is a badge of honor, sometimes overshadowing the goal itself. Or the cases where a player really, really does not enjoy dying 100 times trying to defeat Ludwig in Bloodborne -- it's kind of like hitting yourself on the head with hammer over and over again and when you finally decide to stop, it feels so good. If you're railing against either of those, fine, but those don't have anything to do with Difficult Is Fun. |
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Post by KaiserShep on Dec 26, 2016 3:42:46 GMT
"- When Difficult Is Fun" This one should be a short video: NEVER. Not in real life, not in fantasy, never. But for masochists and psychotics that think that challenge is a valid exerience because reasons put 4 difficult settings, as long as the easiest means that by the time you realize you were in a battle/puzzle/quest it already finished. The Qun says the struggle is an illusion, I disagree the struggle is boring, just boring, no matter how it is done, it is always boring. The one thing all games should offer no matter the genre is the lack of challenge for those healthy people who are not masochists, who were not enraptured by existence's stockholm syndrome. You need for a fact to train your body and mind to bear frustration/suffering/pain, be it when you're a child or an adult, but to enjoy the struggle is just masochism, if it is not needed and you seek frustration it is just plain masochism. Even if you do it with a game it is still BDSM. Well, that's like, your opinion, man. |
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Dec 27, 2016 0:13:21 GMT
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Post by fylimar on Dec 27, 2016 11:18:04 GMT
I stumbled across Extra Credits a few time, when browsing through interesting game videos on youtube. I like their storytelling vids: Bad writing in games, how the first minutes decide, if a player is invested or not and so on. I do prefer actual 'real' voices over these computer generated once, that narrate through the clips, but I guess, some people like their privacy and that is totally ok.
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Post by Gileadan on Dec 27, 2016 11:53:05 GMT
About difficulty: not only can it be fun if the game mechanics are fair and fairly transparent about it, but sometimes it is also great to support the narrative. If you have a story about danger and doom and gloom and imminent apocalypse, you're not helping it in any way if you let the protagonist breeze through it, flattening everything and everyone that looks at him/her funny.
Extra Creditz is good stuff, I watch their channel regularly.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Dec 27, 2016 21:22:42 GMT
I stumbled across Extra Credits a few time, when browsing through interesting game videos on youtube. I like their storytelling vids: Bad writing in games, how the first minutes decide, if a player is invested or not and so on. I do prefer actual 'real' voices over these computer generated once, that narrate through the clips, but I guess, some people like their privacy and that is totally ok. Daniel Floyd explains why he sped up the sound of his voice -- it's not what you thought, it's a much dumber reason -- and why the EC team retained the style, lo these many years later, in the interview vid below. If you want to skip straight to the voice explanation, it's at 4:49. |
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Post by fylimar on Dec 27, 2016 22:05:00 GMT
I stumbled across Extra Credits a few time, when browsing through interesting game videos on youtube. I like their storytelling vids: Bad writing in games, how the first minutes decide, if a player is invested or not and so on. I do prefer actual 'real' voices over these computer generated once, that narrate through the clips, but I guess, some people like their privacy and that is totally ok. Daniel Floyd explains why he sped up the sound of his voice -- it's not what you thought, it's a much dumber reason -- and why the EC team retained the style, lo these many years later, in the interview vid below. If you want to skip straight to the voice explanation, it's at 4:49. Thanks for explaining. But I have to disagree with Daniel: He has a really nice voice to listen to (because he said, that he does not have an exiting voice). The videos are fun and informative though. I liked the open letter to EA, where they addressed the atrocity that is called 'Dantes Inferno' - and I'm glad, I'm not the only one, that would have loved to see Dantes actual description of Hell coming to life and playing the florentine poet, not a stupid templar in some fantasy hell filled with boring creatures(I love the Divine Comedy and Dante Alighieri). |
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