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Post by Lazarillo on Feb 8, 2017 6:01:04 GMT
I wasn't aware that the Archdemons were so interested in politics.... How did he knew all that? and if it was intelligent to the point of elaborating such tactics then it means that it was intelligent enough to understand that was for the best to strike right after Ostagar....when there was no oppsition at all.... Archdemons are smarter than your average bear. It can also use the taint to read the mind of Darkspawn and possibly the Wardens as well, so it's not hard to imagine that Urthemiel knows what's going on and is exploiting it. As for why it didn't sweep in right after Ostagar, comments made by Alistair shortly after the battle indicate Cailan's forces actually were pretty successful even without Loghain's flank (granted, Al is biased, but he seems to legitimately think the charge would've succeeded in squashing the horde when at Flemeth's hut later). Plus Loghain was keeping other united forces out of the country. By holding out and building up strength while the mortals wear each other down, sending small hordes forward all over the country, Urthemiel was nearly able to overturn all of Ferelden in the space of a couple days. If he'd been successful, the Orlesian Grey Wardens and their military support would've had to conquer the entire country to stop the horde's advance. If Urthemiel had pressed the attack and flattened Loghain in Lothering, the Orlesian Wardens could've busted in and the Blight might never have really made it out of the Wilds.
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Post by Kei on Feb 8, 2017 6:19:15 GMT
I wasn't aware that the Archdemons were so interested in politics.... How did he knew all that? and if it was intelligent to the point of elaborating such tactics then it means that it was intelligent enough to understand that was for the best to strike right after Ostagar....when there was no oppsition at all.... Archdemons are smarter than your average bear. It can also use the taint to read the mind of Darkspawn and possibly the Wardens as well, so it's not hard to imagine that Urthemiel knows what's going on and is exploiting it. As for why it didn't sweep in right after Ostagar, comments made by Alistair shortly after the battle indicate Cailan's forces actually were pretty successful even without Loghain's flank (granted, Al is biased, but he seems to legitimately think the charge would've succeeded in squashing the horde when at Flemeth's hut later). Plus Loghain was keeping other united forces out of the country. By holding out and building up strength while the mortals wear each other down, sending small hordes forward all over the country, Urthemiel was nearly able to overturn all of Ferelden in the space of a couple days. If he'd been successful, the Orlesian Grey Wardens and their military support would've had to conquer the entire country to stop the horde's advance. If Urthemiel had pressed the attack and flattened Loghain in Lothering, the Orlesian Wardens could've busted in and the Blight might never have really made it out of the Wilds. No offense but I think that you are making up a lot of contrived assumptions in order to justify what was simply bad writing.There is no way in which you can prove that Urthemiel was able to read the mind of the GW you are just making an unjustified jump between the AD being able to sense GW to AD being able to read their minds,if the Archdemons had that kind of power then it would have been impossible for any GW to defeat them since the first Blight.
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Post by Lazarillo on Feb 8, 2017 6:30:37 GMT
No offense but I think that you are making up a lot of contrived assumptions in order to justify what was simply bad writing.There is no way in which you can prove that Urthemiel was able to read the mind of the GW you are just making an unjustified jump between the AD being able to sense GW to AD being able to read their minds,if the Archdemons had that kind of power then it would have been impossible for any GW to defeat them since the first Blight. "Reading minds" might be stretching it, but the Archdemon can definitely acquire knowledge through some sort of Blight-connection. Hence why it knows the Wardens' precise location, and, if the Warden is Dalish, to send Tamlen in the raid. Even if it can't "read" Wardens, I don't think it's all that contrived to figure it has ways of finding out what's going on up on the surface.
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Post by Kei on Feb 8, 2017 6:54:33 GMT
No offense but I think that you are making up a lot of contrived assumptions in order to justify what was simply bad writing.There is no way in which you can prove that Urthemiel was able to read the mind of the GW you are just making an unjustified jump between the AD being able to sense GW to AD being able to read their minds,if the Archdemons had that kind of power then it would have been impossible for any GW to defeat them since the first Blight. "Reading minds" might be stretching it, but the Archdemon can definitely acquire knowledge through some sort of Blight-connection. Hence why it knows the Wardens' precise location, and, if the Warden is Dalish, to send Tamlen in the raid. Even if it can't "read" Wardens, I don't think it's all that contrived to figure it has ways of finding out what's going on up on the surface. It's contrived indeed. The Dragon has no way to know anything about the nobles and their struggle with Loghain,no way to know what Loghain is doing either and no way to percieve in any way what non- blighted beings are doing. Beside if the Archdemon was so clever like you claimed it wouldn't ever fight directly at all in the surface and keep just controlling the horde from the Deep roads,that away an Archdemon couldn't ever lose against Thedas.
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Post by cheeseandonion on Feb 8, 2017 7:17:48 GMT
I like to think that the Awakening crew are with the warden doing whatever, rather than at adamant being murdered horribly. Shale too.
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Post by BansheeOwnage on Feb 8, 2017 8:24:32 GMT
This isn't really the place for this, but I was wondering... the Avvar live where it's pretty freaking cold, right? Yet some of them are bundled up in fur parkas while others are... wearing nothing but war paint. Is it special war paint, like vitaar? Are they just so tough that they don't have to worry about exposure to the elements? How do they not freeze to death with their nips hanging out, is what I'm asking. I don't understand their clothes either. Half are bundled in furs while the other half are shirtless. What? That doesn't make sense in any climate. I think it is one of those instances where "cool" design idea overcame practicality. Although I suppose they could be regularly imbibing that substance we took to stop us freezing. Another thing that never made sense to me was the bare foot elf design that was introduced in DA2 (apparently against DG's objections) and has now become the norm. According to Masked Empire, ancient mages seemingly have control over the elements affecting them, which would account for Solas' immunity to cold but I have never understood why the Dalish would have developed such a tradition when they have been living in the cold and wet climate of southern Thedas for the most part. As for city elves, why on earth would they choose not to have proper footwear if they could afford it? This reminds me, there is a playful line in JoH that the Inquisitor can take (middle option when asking to borrow the boat to the island) that's basically: "I need the boat. Otherwise, I'd have to swim - my boots would get wet - very uncomfortable." Does this line play if you're an elf? I mean, most outfits do have boots regardless, but I wondered. The climate of the Frostback Basin is something that had confused me quite a bit, things simply don't fit together. The clothing of the Avvar would indicate low temperature (hoods, fur parts...), at least where it doesn't leave the skin exposed. The place is supposed to be somewhere up in the mountains, that would speak for cold, too. And yet there is lush plant growth with large leaves, not conifers that would usually grow in colder climates. In fact, it looks almost Mediterranean or in the swamp even tropical. A secluded basin could have its own microclimate and could be warmer than the rest of the Frostback Mountains, but in that case the Avvar would be wearing too warm clothes instead of being threatened by hypothermia. I guess some designer thought: "looks nice" and stopped thinking at that point. Actually, the Frostback Basin makes perfect sense - it's a temperate rainforest. We have a number of them in Australia. Do a google image search and marvel at the lush scenery . (This doesn't explain the shirtless Avvar, but it does explain the ones in furs. Temperate rainforests are pretty chilly.) I can second this, since I live in a temperate rainforest (which is very pretty). Can't speak for anywhere else, but the temperature here (as implied by "temperate") isn't all that extreme. It rarely snows, and the summers aren't overly hot compared to other places. Why are none of the mages you meet in Redcliffe or the templars you meet in Therinfall at Skyhold (apart from Fiona)? As far as I know, on the mages side, everyone survies and all mages join the inquisition, same with the templars - so why aren't they there? They could at least show Lysas, Connor or Ser Barris in Skyhold. It's more storyrelated than lore, but still, it bothers me It is annoying that we don't really see any extra mages or Templars around Skyhold, yeah. They added random Wardens if you recruit them, so surely it wouldn't have been that hard. And Barris' absence is annoying. I would have liked to talk to him like you can do with Fiona. I know he's in a lot of war table missions, but so are the Chargers and you can still talk to Krem, etc.
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Post by Pokemario on Feb 8, 2017 12:19:26 GMT
I could've sworn that random mages/templars did appear.
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Post by adrianbc on Feb 8, 2017 15:11:57 GMT
It doesn't make sense at all but I have an explanation for that.In the very first concept of the plot of DAO,Loghain(which was the first character ever created by the devs in DA)was supposed to abandon Cailan at Ostagar because he was under the influence of the Archdemon,he was literrally intended to be a minion of the Archdemon,that's why the Archdemon was supposed to attack only after that you defeated his minion Loghain.....However they changed the plot(Loghain not intended as an Archdemon's minion anymore)without changing the outcomes.....that's why is contrived. This is quite interesting. I have read about some early DA plot ideas, but I never encountered this one. Is there an online source about this idea of Loghain being an Archdemon minion? The problem with this first concept plot-line is that`s also hard to believe. Since after Ostagar Ferelden is defenseless, and Loghain an Archdemon minion, it would make no sense for the AD to wait until... what? Loghain did something? It makes no sense. The AD could have directed Loghain to gather all Ferelden forces and go somewhere out of the way (Highever, Amaranthine, Gwaren, watever), and in the meantime the horde would take Ferelden by storm. DA:O is a very good RPG, with well done characters, good quests, credible factions. But the main plot and the Archdemon are simply not credible. Wandering all over Ferelden Brecilian forest and the Deep Roads under most of Ferelden for almost a year while not caring even for a second about the fate of all those people abandoned to the horde is utterly stupid. And the Archdemon`s only meaningful role in the entire game is to be killed at the end. In rest, despite having a big army - the result of 400 years of darkspawn breeding, more than any Blight before - Urthemiel is the most imbecilic Archdemon ever. His behavior would have been credible if say it was the Grey Warden blood used by the Architect who stole Urthemiel`s intelect. Since DA:I`s main plot is not better, it`s probably Bioware`s dificulty to deal with a military campaign as the main plot for a RPG.
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Post by Steelcan on Feb 8, 2017 15:50:18 GMT
there are random mages and templars based on which tower upgrade you get iirc
also the templar line has the option to promote Ser Barris to Knight Captain in a ceremony at Skyhold
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Post by shroomofdoom on Feb 8, 2017 15:50:59 GMT
It doesn't make sense at all but I have an explanation for that.In the very first concept of the plot of DAO,Loghain(which was the first character ever created by the devs in DA)was supposed to abandon Cailan at Ostagar because he was under the influence of the Archdemon,he was literrally intended to be a minion of the Archdemon,that's why the Archdemon was supposed to attack only after that you defeated his minion Loghain.....However they changed the plot(Loghain not intended as an Archdemon's minion anymore)without changing the outcomes.....that's why is contrived. This is quite interesting. I have read about some early DA plot ideas, but I never encountered this one. Is there an online source about this idea of Loghain being an Archdemon minion? The problem with this first concept plot-line is that`s also hard to believe. Since after Ostagar Ferelden is defenseless, and Loghain an Archdemon minion, it would make no sense for the AD to wait until... what? Loghain did something? It makes no sense. The AD could have directed Loghain to gather all Ferelden forces and go somewhere out of the way (Highever, Amaranthine, Gwaren, watever), and in the meantime the horde would take Ferelden by storm. DA:O is a very good RPG, with well done characters, good quests, credible factions. But the main plot and the Archdemon are simply not credible. Wandering all over Ferelden Brecilian forest and the Deep Roads under most of Ferelden for almost a year while not caring even for a second about the fate of all those people abandoned to the horde is utterly stupid. And the Archdemon`s only meaningful role in the entire game is to be killed at the end. In rest, despite having a big army - the result of 400 years of darkspawn breeding, more than any Blight before - Urthemiel is the most imbecilic Archdemon ever. His behavior would have been credible if say it was the Grey Warden blood used by the Architect who stole Urthemiel`s intelect. Since DA:I`s main plot is not better, it`s probably Bioware`s dificulty to deal with a military campaign as the main plot for a RPG. I always operated on the assumption that the Archdemon was in the deep roads, like, the deep deep roads, faaaar underground when it was corrupted. The horde was able to surge to the surface rapidly to begin the blight, while the AD had to be dug out/break its way to the surface. Passing, along the way, various dawrven thaigs in it's ascent. One of which the wardens are privy to, due to the vision in camp. I saw it as the Archdemons first appreance, was also it's last, in Denerim. I can get that some people might feel the AD was abit rubbish, when we consider that previous AD took many years to overcome and DA:O takes place in such a short span of time. I guess I didn't find anything unbelieveable in DA:O in terms of the AD. We still don't really know what exactly they are, what they are capable of and if they vary from one another in some way that would justify why Urthemial was easier to overcome than say.. Dumat. DA:O story pacing was abit off, simply because we are made aware that ordinarily, a blight is a thing of decades long devestation and here we are fixing one in under a year. That was badly done I guess, but I felt it made sense for my Warden and co. to be focused on dealing with the bigger picture, rather than fighting every darkspawn and it's ghoul granny across all of Fereldan. We all have different levels at which our suspension of disbelief will snap and break. Mine I'm guessing is pretty up there!
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Post by Kei on Feb 8, 2017 18:44:08 GMT
This is quite interesting. I have read about some early DA plot ideas, but I never encountered this one. Is there an online source about this idea of Loghain being an Archdemon minion? It was on Mr Gaider's blog where he was talking about ideas being changed and/or scrapped: David Gaider "This is the point where a lot of stuff gets discarded or changed....Did you know the darkspawn were once intelligent, and that Loghain was once mind-controlled by the Archdemon? Did you know the final battle once took place at Redcliffe, with a one-on-one duel with Loghain? Or that the battle with the Archdemon once took place in the heart of the Blight down in the Korcari Wilds, and the Archdemon wasn’t even a dragon? You also needed a [temp name] artifact to kill it, which only later got replaced by the “only Grey Wardens can kill the Archdemon” thing— ten iterations of trying to figure in this foozle artifact without it seeming completely lame only to eventually realize the problem was the artifact and not how we were introducing it." I think mind control plots are totally lame, though, so I'm glad they didn't go that direction.
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Post by gervaise21 on Feb 8, 2017 19:43:10 GMT
Aborted plot lines probably accounts for why some of the lore seems so contradictory, particularly when it comes to how you kill arch demons as opposed to intelligent darkspawn. Unfortunately, it seems they couldn't resist returning to the mind control idea, hence the ridiculous Warden plot in DAI. What's the betting that the time travel idea came about through someone thinking it would be "cool" without properly thinking through all the problems associated with it.
The fact that the arch demon wasn't originally meant to be a dragon probably accounts for all the confusion related to the Old Gods too.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2017 2:03:22 GMT
It was on Mr Gaider's blog where he was talking about ideas being changed and/or scrapped: David Gaider "This is the point where a lot of stuff gets discarded or changed....Did you know the darkspawn were once intelligent, and that Loghain was once mind-controlled by the Archdemon? Did you know the final battle once took place at Redcliffe, with a one-on-one duel with Loghain? Or that the battle with the Archdemon once took place in the heart of the Blight down in the Korcari Wilds, and the Archdemon wasn’t even a dragon? You also needed a [temp name] artifact to kill it, which only later got replaced by the “only Grey Wardens can kill the Archdemon” thing— ten iterations of trying to figure in this foozle artifact without it seeming completely lame only to eventually realize the problem was the artifact and not how we were introducing it." I think mind control plots are totally lame, though, so I'm glad they didn't go that direction. That sounds like the battle with Saren in Mass Effect. Was Loghain going to jump around the room like some demonic frog?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2017 5:43:03 GMT
Why are none of the mages you meet in Redcliffe or the templars you meet in Therinfall at Skyhold (apart from Fiona)? As far as I know, on the mages side, everyone survies and all mages join the inquisition, same with the templars - so why aren't they there? They could at least show Lysas, Connor or Ser Barris in Skyhold. It's more storyrelated than lore, but still, it bothers me They're all camped down in the valley at Skyhold with the rest of the Inquisitions forces.
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Post by doflamingodonquijote on Feb 16, 2017 23:06:12 GMT
I'm still very eager to know and I've waited for a plausible explanation Plot armor,there it is your explanation,that's just one of the many she had with Gaider's blessing(mind you she is the only character in the whole franchise with such strong plot protection).Another of these plot armors is in the end-game of DAO where you go "I should have killed you before." and she says "Now you won't get the chance to." and just walks off RIGHT BESIDE YOU and you stand there with arms folded. So they created WH to offer the "illusion" of her dying,for somthing that should have been a final solution in Redclieffe.
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Post by nougat on Apr 7, 2017 20:03:55 GMT
DA has quite a number of lore asininities and violations (though not at Mass Effect scale) but personally I find DAI-introduced "three mages per clan rule" as the most aggravating one. I would have exact zero problem if Minaeve’ personal tragic story was indeed a truthful one-time (or exceptionally rare) event. Or if it is a lie that the dalish spread to keep the templars at bay. Alas, her case is meant to be taken at the face value and pushed as an universal rule among the Dalish clans. That is a huge problem and, pardon my french, spectacularly shits on established lore. In addition, we have several characters like Vivienne and Iron Bull parroting the same thing to the Lavellan' face. As if not enough mockery and dismissal the dalish inquisitor already has to endure. (Though the vashoth Adaar is close second in that prospect.) Hmm, interesting how they threw the Dalish under the bus, but quite respectfully treated the Avvar (= human) culture magic aspect. So I think it was done for two main reasons. Firstly, to add "grey morality" fuel to the mage-templar conflict' portrayal. We all know how it was not exactly adequate depicted in previous games. Instead of focusing on, let’s say, how brutally the Chantry treats its templars (hamfisted Cullen' arc barely counts and Samson ends up dead or vilified) or how dangerous unsupervised young mages to themselves and others or expanding on magisters’ corruption or not suddenly getting rid of abominations ("Jaws of Hakkon" rectified that) or some other angle, BioWare decided to twist the dalish lore with ease, which is already under the bombardment with truth eggs bombs. Indeed, I often see the reasoning that the three mages' bs was invented because the [pre-DAI] dalish example was solid argument for how the templars are not such a necessity. (Personally I think that the dalish cause can not be applied to [South] Andrastian societies because dalish mages have completely different socio-cultural role among their kin.) And another reason (though it’s more subjective), to illustrate Solas' tragic point about how apart, how "different", how the Dalish are "the furthest from what you were meant to be." Imagine beings who lived forever, for whom magic was as natural as breathing. That is what was lost. Yeah, sadly, now the Dalish throw their extra magic-gifted kids to the wolves. And then there is Keeper Hawen’s clan in the Dirthavaren, which canonically loses at least two mages during the game and the Keeper barely bats an eyelash. It should be catastrophic for the clan if the three mages rule is genuine, ffs… I actually like Minaeve but it kind of looks like the point of her existence is to make up new ~revelations~. And also the fact that the new Dragon Age lead writer (Patrick Weekes) is the one who wrote her character. (I read somewhere that PW actually did a similar thing with the krogan/genophage lore when he wrote Mordin Solus for ME2.) Furthermore, the Aqun-Athlok concept is introduced by [yet again] Weekes' written character(s). Though it doesn’t bother me as much as the three mages rule' reveal. Also I find it’s amusing (and fishy) that Weekes’ darling Solas does not mention the three mages' bs. Thanks for small mercies. So I’m indeed a little concerned about lore handling for future games because I like DA a great deal.
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Post by xerrai on Apr 7, 2017 21:20:37 GMT
Not that I don't disagree with the points said here or anything (particularly with how the three mage rule which came out of nowhere)I do want to point that not all lore changes are all that bad. Some of them were actually good. Or at least decent.
The qunari in DA:O were always supposed to have horns but there were technical limitations and people wanted Sten able to equip helmets. Then they decided to add in lore about hornless qunari existing and how they tend to do special things in their life. And DA:O's Alistair gave tons of misconceptions about lyrium and how templars use it and made it seem like something you took once, but though DA2 and DA:I they properly fleshed out the lore behind the qualities and use of lyrium.
Like many, I also would have liked it better if the game didn't shove it down our throats that the three mage rule is 'universal' and 'mostly common' among the Dalish. But I think if they gave the lore change a bit more nuance then I would not have minded it all that much. In fact it would have been a welcome addition to the varieties among Dalish customs.
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