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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2017 15:51:36 GMT
Ugh... I'm just sticking with Jaal. Their romance and main plot become one big story connected in the game and it makes sense. Reyes is a mess and Liam gets the short end of the stick. I have no other options. I'm stick with Liam. He may have less content but Jaal but he's adorables and my bro and that makes all the difference. Yeah I wanted to try his romance, but like Kaidan he just keeps feeling like a bro to me. I don't know, maybe it's because of my real life age it feels odd. Reyes makes more sense (not my type though), but what they did is unforgivable to gay players. And since Reyes started off it seems as a gay fling, Sara was an afterthought.
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Post by uirebhiril on Mar 24, 2017 15:57:01 GMT
I'm stick with Liam. He may have less content but Jaal but he's adorables and my bro and that makes all the difference. That and Jaal's a bit of a cloaca. He doesn't mesh very well with my Ryder. No way in hell she's going for the alien loving this time around. Well, except for maybe Vetra. But she and Liam connected over their love of bad movies, thanks to a dialogue option I took with another character, so I guess it works out. But yea... fade to black on a manky couch compared to soft porn with Cora or Peebee? Honestly, I prefer the fade to black in this case. There's a difference between explicit-because-we're-adults-here and wankbait.
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Post by allanschumacher on Mar 24, 2017 15:58:20 GMT
I can't decide Liam or Vetra for first Sara Ryder playthrough... probably most difficult choice I'll be faced with, lol. They're both too good... (and I'm too hurt to try Jaal) Liam
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2017 15:59:48 GMT
I'm stick with Liam. He may have less content but Jaal but he's adorables and my bro and that makes all the difference. That and Jaal's a bit of a cloaca. He doesn't mesh very well with my Ryder. No way in hell she's going for the alien loving this time around. Well, except for maybe Vetra. But she and Liam connected over their love of bad movies, thanks to a dialogue option I took with another character, so I guess it works out. But yea... fade to black on a manky couch compared to soft porn with Cora or Peebee? Honestly, I prefer the fade to black in this case. There's a difference between explicit-because-we're-adults-here and wankbait. Yep. Cora, PeeBee and Jaal = hot porn-level sex scenes. Liam and Vetra = fade to black and no alien nudity. Gil is fade to black and Suvi I don't think has sex at all.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2017 16:01:59 GMT
I had no idea the m/m romances were this bad...damn even me, one of the most hardcore me fans, feels they should have delayed this by a few months to fix all these issues.
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Post by JewlieGhoulie on Mar 24, 2017 16:03:06 GMT
:screaming; SHOULD HAVE MADE BOTH JAAL AND CORA BI!!!
:clears throat: I mean, that would have made plenty of people much happier and gay, lesbian, and straight people would have had really fleshed out romances to enjoy.
though from what I hear Peebee's romance is pretty good too?
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Post by pupsofwar on Mar 24, 2017 16:05:28 GMT
I can't help but wonder if a lot of the messes Bioware makes in this area are down to a certain focus on breadth over depth, or, if you like, quantity over quality.
If you make it about numbers then it becomes a matter of resource-allocation, and if it's a matter of resource-allocation then sexual minorities get shafted and even hetero characters who are more niche - check the amount of content that a character like Jack got, in ME3, relative to others - get shafted.
The Witcher 3 was praised for its handling of sex and romance (certainly moreso than the other witcher games, which were bad about this) and that featured only 2 main love-interests to choose between, and a handful of flings.
People seem to like some of the relationship stuff in the Uncharted games or in the Wolfenstein reboot, and those don't even let the player choose.
Bioware got a strong positive reception for the Shadow Broker DLC, where they were able to lavish great effort and attention on a particular character and relationship.
Seems like maybe that's the way to go.
Something I'd like to see in the future is for them to make sort of a more LGBT-friendly Witcher 3-type arrangement. A game with basically two main love interests - one of each gender, both bi - who each have an amount of arc and narrative weight sufficient to qualify them as a deuteragonist. Then if the player/player-character is straight, they have one canon love-interest, if the player/player-character is gay, they have one canon love-interest, bi players/player-characters get an option, but everybody has equivalent content and importance.
I know this is extremely unlikely to happen, given that they've said they're averse to doing Everybody Is Bi again. I'm just trying to brainstorm what would be the optimal way to handle things.
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Post by uirebhiril on Mar 24, 2017 16:06:10 GMT
I was honestly hoping Jaal would be bi because the disparity is kind of glaring and crappy. I don't care for him as a romance character, but damn, enough people did and it was the perfect opportunity. I'm glad the DA team is better about this shit, but seriously. Space. In the future. For sure it "makes sense" for another alien race to like any and all genders. The Asari can't be that unique.
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Post by amoebae † on Mar 24, 2017 16:06:12 GMT
BioWare have really pissed me off.
When I'm playing the game I love it. When I'm reading about this shit I'm a seething ball of fucking fury.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2017 16:07:07 GMT
The thing with TW3 is it's one man and many women to have sex with. BW has diversity and straight males are the top priority, lesbians second, straight women 3rd and gay men last.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2017 16:07:52 GMT
I had no idea the m/m romances were this bad...damn even me, one of the most hardcore me fans, feels they should have delayed this by a few months to fix all these issues. Yes. Coming from Inquisition to Andromeda was a bit of an adjustment in terms of queer male characters...
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Post by amoebae † on Mar 24, 2017 16:08:09 GMT
I was honestly hoping Jaal would be bi because the disparity is kind of glaring and crappy. I don't care for him as a romance character, but damn, enough people did and it was the perfect opportunity. I'm glad the DA team is better about this shit, but seriously. Space. In the future. For sure it "makes sense" for another alien race to like any and all genders. The Asari can't be that unique. It didn't even have to be that. Humans are attracted to a range of genders, it just differs from person to person. You don't have to apply some sort of space magic for it to make sense for Jaal or any other angaran to be into men. It can just happen, like it can for any human.
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Post by Syv on Mar 24, 2017 16:10:55 GMT
So, If i understand, Cora / Jaal are considered canon romances because they have a sex scene showed unlike Liam or Vetra for example ? That's it ?
Also, something that makes me a little laugh. I remember all these debates about if we should put a full sex scene with nudity. And you had a loooot of people who said " I don't need porn in my video games " " Bioware games aren't The witcher, thanks god " Or ' I prefer fade to black "
Among straight guys, there were much less prude folks. I'd say 80% of them said they wanted nudity and among them a lot were fine with tthe witcher scenes.
It's interesting to see how everyone now complains because it doesn' thave its soft porn.
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Post by Panda on Mar 24, 2017 16:11:05 GMT
ME2: I had forgotten how tedious probing us. But I'm such completionist player, that I feel bad if I just stop with it. In other hand I got to hold hands with frog prince, more than I managed to do first time I tried. So it's going well. I'm going to pick Legion and then head to Tali's missions with him. Sounds like fun conflict.
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Post by vertigomez on Mar 24, 2017 16:12:36 GMT
jus waitin on that DA4 announcement cuz this andromeda situation not lookin gud DA had david gaider and Patrick weekes and David gaider passed his position onto him so im sure DA will be more inclusive. It always has compared to ME True. Plus Sheryl is back on DA, last I heard? I'm not trying to lionize the DA team or pretend that that franchise has no faults, but aaall I'm saying is that f/f players, m/m players, m/f players, and f/m players have had at least two content-rich romance options since DA2, and always at least one squadmate, none of whom looked like CC afterthoughts. Zevran and Leliana's s/s paths weren't perfectly executed but they existed from day one. Anders not telling female Hawke about Karl was a cop-out and should never be repeated again (because letting people get away with their biphobia is gross), but at least the dude explicitly had an ex-boyfriend. Fenris was written with a male Hawke in mind. Isabela's romance with a female Hawke has a thousand subtle and meaningful differences. Bull and Dorian both had intimate scenes with nude models in DAI and Sera's sex scene was hands-down the least male gazey lesbian love scene I have ever witnessed in a video game. I don't really have faith that the ME team can resolve this clusterfuck in a satisfying way, at least not one that, ya know... respects their fanbase, but honestly when I think of DA4 I ain't even worried.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2017 16:12:56 GMT
I can't help but wonder if a lot of the messes Bioware makes in this area are down to a certain focus on breadth over depth, or, if you like, quantity over quality. If you make it about numbers then it becomes a matter of resource-allocation, and if it's a matter of resource-allocation then sexual minorities get shafted and even hetero characters who are more niche - check the amount of content that a character like Jack got, in ME3, relative to others - get shafted. The Witcher 3 was praised for its handling of sex and romance (certainly moreso than the other witcher games, which were bad about this) and that featured only 2 main love-interests to choose between, and a handful of flings. People seem to like some of the relationship stuff in the Uncharted games or in the Wolfenstein reboot, and those don't even let the player choose. Bioware got a strong positive reception for the Shadow Broker DLC, where they were able to lavish great effort and attention on a particular character and relationship. Seems like maybe that's the way to go. Something I'd like to see in the future is for them to make sort of a more LGBT-friendly Witcher 3-type arrangement. A game with basically two main love interests - one of each gender, both bi - who each have an amount of arc and narrative weight sufficient to qualify them as a deuteragonist. Then if the player/player-character is straight, they have one canon love-interest, if the player/player-character is gay, they have one canon love-interest, bi players/player-characters get an option, but everybody has equivalent content and importance. I know this is extremely unlikely to happen, given that they've said they're averse to doing Everybody Is Bi again. I'm just trying to brainstorm what would be the optimal way to handle things. I honestly really wouldn't mind if that were the case. But of course, it'll all depend on how you can customise your player character, how these other characters are written and designed...
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Post by uirebhiril on Mar 24, 2017 16:12:56 GMT
It didn't even have to be that. Humans are attracted to a range of genders, it just differs from person to person. You don't have to apply some sort of space magic for it to make sense for Jaal or any other angaran to be into men. It can just happen, like it can for any human. I completely agree. I was just saying that to counter the usual "it needs to make sense" thing. That's old ground when it comes to characters like Liam or Cora. When you start applying that to a whole new alien species, it then becomes shaky ground, and one has to wonder why. It's ultimately bullshit.
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Post by frebu on Mar 24, 2017 16:13:41 GMT
Some people were very quick to dismiss all the people leaving the project over the course of the game. But so many were right, and it is clear those early warning signs were clearly indicative of the developmental troubles with this game. It shows in every area, a sort of internal conflict, the story, the writing, the characters. It's like one half of the team is trying to take them in one direction, the other taking them in the opposite. The game is, especially in comparison to the other three games, a bit of a mess, and I'm not just talking about m/m romances here. The terrible handling of m/m romances is indicative of wider spread problems and issues in regards to the handling and development of this game in my opinion. Ultimately they needed more time, and just a bunch of culling the stuff that really just needlessly bloats the game. Can we please take exploration out of the description of all future BioWare games? I miss when we had well designed levels/areas in games. Extra space for nothing should have never been a feature. Exploring is great..........if there is something to find. The problem with this game is everything is based on a "here is a quest to go to a spot" system(from what I have seen)..........those are terrible because if you find the spot before the quest.......that makes it just an empty spot until you have to backtrack to it later to do the thing the spot was designed for. That makes exploring pretty frustrating because the game is designed waste your time if you do.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2017 16:14:38 GMT
So, If i understand, Cora / Jaal are considered canon romances because they have a sex scene showed unlike Liam or Vetra for example ? That's it ? Also, something that makes me a little laugh. I remember all these debates about if we should put a full sex scene with nudity. And you had a loooot of people who said " I don't need porn in my video games " " Bioware games aren't The witcher, thanks god " Or ' I prefer fade to black " Among straight guys, there were much less prude folks. I'd say 80% of them said they wanted nudity and among them a lot were fine with tthe witcher scenes. It's interesting to know how everyone now complains because it doesn' thave its soft porn. No it's not sex scenes. Scott and Cora's romance is very detailed and also flows with the main plot (her role, her feelings about Alec, her feelings about Scott's role), and she suits Scott's background, which gives him a personality that is different from his sister. Sara and Jaal have the same thing. Her background and personality makes her fit him, as well as their romance connecting to the main plot and how Angara and humans came live together. In fact they focus quite a bit on the idea of humans and Angara relationships being something common in the future.
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Post by sandalisthemaker on Mar 24, 2017 16:15:42 GMT
So, If i understand, Cora / Jaal are considered canon romances because they have a sex scene showed unlike Liam or Vetra for example ? That's it ? Also, something that makes me a little laugh. I remember all these debates about if we should put a full sex scene with nudity. And you had a loooot of people who said " I don't need porn in my video games " " Bioware games aren't The witcher, thanks god " Or ' I prefer fade to black " Among straight guys, there were much less prude folks. I'd say 80% of them said they wanted nudity and among them a lot were fine with tthe witcher scenes. It's interesting to see how everyone now complains because it doesn' thave its soft porn. It's not that there is sex specifically. It's the fact that Cora and Peebee (and Jaal's ?) scenes were painstakingly detailed. Compared to the rest of the game, it looks like they spent the bulk of the animation budget on those scenes alone. It's the time, effort, and care spent on those scenes compared to the other romances that is the problem.
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Post by flog61 on Mar 24, 2017 16:16:03 GMT
So, If i understand, Cora / Jaal are considered canon romances because they have a sex scene showed unlike Liam or Vetra for example ? That's it ? Also, something that makes me a little laugh. I remember all these debates about if we should put a full sex scene with nudity. And you had a loooot of people who said " I don't need porn in my video games " " Bioware games aren't The witcher, thanks god " Or ' I prefer fade to black " Among straight guys, there were much less prude folks. I'd say 80% of them said they wanted nudity and among them a lot were fine with tthe witcher scenes. It's interesting to see how everyone now complains because it doesn' thave its soft porn. People aren't upset because they want soft porn, the issue is that every orientation has at least one sex scene apart from gay men. I think either romances should generally be explicit, or none should. At the moment it feels like the team is just prudish about gay men having sex.
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Post by lysander on Mar 24, 2017 16:19:06 GMT
Is it me, or is this thing about Jaal being a "douche" unfounded? He pays some flirty compliments to other crew members, sure. Do people hate Isabela because she's flirty as well?
Because on the whole, Jaal comes across as super genuine, caring, and passionate about his cause and his people. Once Ryder commits to him, he's nothing less than 100% devoted to her. Looking at other male Bioware LIs, I think there's nothing to complain about with him.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2017 16:21:07 GMT
Is it me, or is this thing about Jaal being a "douche" unfounded? He pays some flirty compliments to other crew members, sure. Do people hate Isabela because she's flirty as well? Because on the whole, Jaal comes across as super genuine, caring, and passionate about his cause and his people. Once Ryder commits to him, he's nothing less than 100% devoted to her. Looking at other male Bioware LIs, I think there's nothing to complain about with him. Jaal isn't really aware he's turning on the ladies and making them think he likes them. He just likes the female body, admires the women on your team and even has female Angara falling all over him. He also likes Avela it seems, but it's just a crush that he never does anything about.
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Post by Ryzaki on Mar 24, 2017 16:22:40 GMT
I'm stick with Liam. He may have less content but Jaal but he's adorables and my bro and that makes all the difference. That and Jaal's a bit of a cloaca. He doesn't mesh very well with my Ryder. No way in hell she's going for the alien loving this time around. Well, except for maybe Vetra. But she and Liam connected over their love of bad movies, thanks to a dialogue option I took with another character, so I guess it works out. But yea... fade to black on a manky couch compared to soft porn with Cora or Peebee? Honestly, I prefer the fade to black in this case. There's a difference between explicit-because-we're-adults-here and wankbait. Yeah and I chose the option that got him all "I'm upset and don't feel like talking." and okay then be that way. Seriously and every time I see how lovingly animated restricted scenes like that are and then look at the general scenes EVERYONE is going to see and they look janky as fuck and I'm just "really?" This isn't a goddamn dating sim why the fuck do those scenes look better? FTB please for everyone now on since they clearly can't use their animation budget wisely. lmao my poor Sara just shook her head at movie night.
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Post by witchcocktor on Mar 24, 2017 16:23:09 GMT
So, If i understand, Cora / Jaal are considered canon romances because they have a sex scene showed unlike Liam or Vetra for example ? That's it ? Also, something that makes me a little laugh. I remember all these debates about if we should put a full sex scene with nudity. And you had a loooot of people who said " I don't need porn in my video games " " Bioware games aren't The witcher, thanks god " Or ' I prefer fade to black " Among straight guys, there were much less prude folks. I'd say 80% of them said they wanted nudity and among them a lot were fine with tthe witcher scenes. It's interesting to see how everyone now complains because it doesn' thave its soft porn. Characters having more detailed content and being more integral to the plot? Yes, I would call them '' canon '' romances. And excuse you, I have no problem with fade-to-black, but gay men are the only one who don't get a softcore space porn scene. You think that's fair? If everyone else gets one, why don't we, hmmh?
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