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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Feb 3, 2017 14:07:27 GMT
I'll concede that there's probably a lot more truth to your speculations about the Chantry's motivations than there should be to such cynicism, but... The problem is that as far as I remember we don't actually know that cured mages are immune to possession, and we certainly don't know for a fact that all Seekers are possessed by spirits. (Which is not to say that it would be a good thing if they are, since possessing Anders did bad things to Justice.) To my knowledge we only have the slightest idea how any of this works. We do, however, know that it's possible to fail the ritual by being "impure" and be Tranquil for good, and that the Seekers discovered Tranquility turns mages into muggles because a mage failed. We don't know the success rate, or if being a mage skews things, or even if mages can succeed at the ritual. I think it should be tried, if it hasn't been, but you seem to be arguing that we already know what the result would be. I'm not sure that's merited. One thing I will point out is that none of Ameridan's party seem to have been Seekers: Ameridan describes them in a way that suggests a group he's not part of, Haron is using a weapon that our Seeker companion describes as unnecessary for her group multiple times (and paying a huge price to do so,) and none of the others are described as having their powers. If mages could be made Seekers, you'd think Ameridan at least would have been; I can't think why he would have counted as "impure" if being a mage doesn't automatically qualify you somehow. I don't 100% remember the evidence that the mage isn't educated on how to deal with spirits. Could you refresh my memory? (Also I think the Summoning Sciences quest, at least, seems to suggest that mages are taught how to handle spirits. Oh, and Rhys's abilities as described in Asunder seem to give that impression too. You could argue that Rhys might have been taught how to use spirits after his Harrowing, as far as I know, but since the Codex for Summoning Sciences specifically says that apprentices are expected to handle this ritual I don't think you can argue the same for that evidence.) Wynne is the example we already know from DA:O of a mage possessed by a faith spirit. So we know that it works. Codex and game lore explains how the Seeker Ritual works, and why they need a state of "no emotions" in order to not affect the faith spirit in a negative way. The discovered that the Rite works on mages also after the described failed attempt. It`s easy to imagine that there were also failures for non-mage seeker candidates, like the case of candidates who fail the Grey warden Ritual. It`s normal for failures to exist, and perhaps innitially there were more failures, as the seeker ritual was perfected. The Seekers could have perfected it also for mages - they had 1000 years to do it (50 generations!) but they did nothing. It would have benefited mages, the society in general BUT NOT SEEKERS AND NOT THE CHANTRY. Therefore, they never did it. And probably they never informed the Divine about the Rite. It was their secret for the reasons already mentioned. If you play the DA:O mage origin, every dialogue option during the Harrowing, and the subsequent dialogues with Jowan and Irving suggest that the Warden has absolutely no clue about the Fade, spirits and demons. AND he is reminded by Irving that is forbidden to mention anything about Harrowing to any in-harrowed mages. Therefore, one can conclude that the un-harrowed mages receive no training or lore about the Harrowing on purpose. Jowan asks the Warden - probably being his last resort to learn something. You can easily play the Harrowing quest and the two dialogues in about 20 minutes max... Probably it would be useful to read again my "speculations". I tried to make it short, but to present an overall picture about both the Chantry and the Seeker Order`s decision concerning the creation of the Magi Circles, Harrowing/Tranquility, the alternative and the political/social consequences. I am curious if you have a better viewpoint. Well, my viewpoint is that you're making a whole bunch of assumptions in the post I'm replying to, and that not all of them seem to be entirely reasonable. I don't think rereading will change that. Again: we don't know that Seekers are possessed. And in fact the way the ritual is described, that they are " touched by spirits," seems to suggest they aren't. Nor do I think it would be a good thing if they were since once the Seeker is cured of Tranquility they can influence the spirit in a negative way. And we don't know that mages can pass the test to become Seekers. We know of one who failed, and none that succeeded. We know that they had 1000 years to try, and we don't know that they were trying, but that doesn't mean the goal is one that can be succeeded at if they do try. Nor do we know that cured mages are immune to possession, since as far as I know we haven't seen that idea tested or found out what about the Seeker ritual makes those who pass it immune to possession. (If the Seeker already is possessed that would do it, but I don't think we have any other reason to believe that is how it works.) We do know, or at least have reason to believe, that the general failure rate is scary enough to motivate Ameridan's entire group to eschew the ritual and motivate Haron to burn his brain out on lyrium instead. That's not reassuring. And we have reason to believe that apprentices are taught something about spirits. These seem to be pretty big holes in your idea that the Seeker ritual can entirely replace the Harrowing, and that the Harrowing is made to make mages want to become Tranquil. And you don't seem to even be trying to answer them. I admit that the Seekers benefit from mages being locked up, but I don't think that's evidence that they suppressed knowledge that could have made it unnecessary. And while the ritual you're suggested should be tested, and we have no evidence that it has been, I think that should preclude being as sure it will work as you seem to be.
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Post by adrianbc on Feb 3, 2017 14:09:19 GMT
I am making the comparison, and I find the Avvar wanting. At least the Chantry allows those who would live at any price to do so. I would share your humanitarian viewpoint if the Chantry would allow the volunteers to know more about the Tranquil state of mind. By forbidding any information not just about how the ritual is done (meaning mages cannot research it for a better option) but also how the Tranquil are affected by the rite in detail (not just a superficial "like submerged in a pool of cold water" as Owain said). This is dishonest TWICE because: It forces the mages to make a decision (choose the Rite or risk the Harrowing) without knowing anything about either option - how dangerous the Harrowing is, and how it is to be tranquil. The codexes described it like a constant dreamy state, and being easy to influence/command, AND in case of especially female mages to accept any kind of sexual suggestion - what Alric loved to do. We also have Karl`s reaction when his old self emerges for a short moment and his desire to die instead of remaining Tranquil. So, if Tranquility is quite awful for AT LEAST a part of the mages, and death is preferred by them why is Tranquility to be considered a mercy option? Compared with the one used by Avvars, who have also other dangerous rituals (as courting) with similar outcome. Avvar`s society is violent, and for them death while dreaming means great mercy. They use the best option available for their mages. Compare their training with the Harrowing, not the Tranquility. We have no statistics about the rate of success for Harrowing compared to the Avvar method. But my guess is that the Avvars have a much lower death rate among young mages that the Harrowing AND Tranquility combined.
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Post by adrianbc on Feb 3, 2017 14:20:13 GMT
Wynne is the example we already know from DA:O of a mage possessed by a faith spirit. So we know that it works. Codex and game lore explains how the Seeker Ritual works, and why they need a state of "no emotions" in order to not affect the faith spirit in a negative way. The discovered that the Rite works on mages also after the described failed attempt. It`s easy to imagine that there were also failures for non-mage seeker candidates, like the case of candidates who fail the Grey warden Ritual. It`s normal for failures to exist, and perhaps innitially there were more failures, as the seeker ritual was perfected. The Seekers could have perfected it also for mages - they had 1000 years to do it (50 generations!) but they did nothing. It would have benefited mages, the society in general BUT NOT SEEKERS AND NOT THE CHANTRY. Therefore, they never did it. And probably they never informed the Divine about the Rite. It was their secret for the reasons already mentioned. If you play the DA:O mage origin, every dialogue option during the Harrowing, and the subsequent dialogues with Jowan and Irving suggest that the Warden has absolutely no clue about the Fade, spirits and demons. AND he is reminded by Irving that is forbidden to mention anything about Harrowing to any in-harrowed mages. Therefore, one can conclude that the un-harrowed mages receive no training or lore about the Harrowing on purpose. Jowan asks the Warden - probably being his last resort to learn something. You can easily play the Harrowing quest and the two dialogues in about 20 minutes max... Probably it would be useful to read again my "speculations". I tried to make it short, but to present an overall picture about both the Chantry and the Seeker Order`s decision concerning the creation of the Magi Circles, Harrowing/Tranquility, the alternative and the political/social consequences. I am curious if you have a better viewpoint. Well, my viewpoint is that you're making a whole bunch of assumptions in the post I'm replying to, and that not all of them seem to be entirely reasonable. I don't think rereading will change that.
Again: we don't know that Seekers are possessed. And in fact the way the ritual is described, that they are "touched by spirits," seems to suggest they aren't. Nor do I think it would be a good thing if they were since once the Seeker is cured of Tranquility they can influence the spirit in a negative way.
And we don't know that mages can pass the test to become Seekers. We know of one who failed, and none that succeeded. We know that they had 1000 years to try, and we don't know that they were trying, but that doesn't mean the goal is one that can be succeeded at if they do try. Nor do we know that cured mages are immune to possession, since as far as I know we haven't seen that idea tested or found out what about the Seeker ritual makes those who pass it immune to possession. (If the Seeker already is possessed that would do it, but I don't think we have any other reason to believe that is how it works.)
We do know, or at least have reason to believe, that the general failure rate is scary enough to motivate Ameridan's entire group to eschew the ritual and motivate Haron to burn his brain out on lyrium instead. That's not reassuring. And we have reason to believe that apprentices are taught something about spirits. These seem to be pretty big holes in your idea that the Seeker ritual can entirely replace the Harrowing, and that the Harrowing is made to make mages want to become Tranquil. And you don't seem to even be trying to answer them.
I admit that the Seekers benefit from mages being locked up, but I don't think that's evidence that they suppressed knowledge that could have made it unnecessary. And while the ritual you're suggested should be tested, and we have no evidence that it has been, I think that should preclude being as sure it will work as you seem to be. You obviously did not read my post carefully. Care to explain Wynne? It seems to me that you are avoiding the delicate, political elements from my post in purpose. Care to comment about those also? About the seekers not being possessed: (1) we have the reaction of Karl when touched by Anders/Justice. A temporary touch by a spirit, which doesn`t last much. Then he reversed to his Tranquil self. Thus, we can expect the same outcome for Seekers if they are just touched. More, (2) the Seekers wanted to be a force of faith, hence their choice for a spirit of faith. That IS the purpose of the ritual, and the source of the magical kind of power they are receiving is from the spirit. So, there are two arguments in favor of possession, and none against. Do you have arguments disproving these, or in favor of not being possessed?
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Post by cardbutton on Feb 3, 2017 15:29:54 GMT
I know I'm late to the party on this, but honestly the "shelving" of the Tranquil until such a time an actual cure "could" be discovered (which the Inquisition only really happened upon by accident if they did Cassy's Seeker quests) is both a waist of resources, and actually sort of cruel. While the Tranquil don't seem to have what you'd call a traditional will of their own, when you talk to them in game they do seem to have at the very least a drive to be productive. They are skilled and they are useful, and they "want" to be doing something. Think of their use by the Inquisition as being no different than the "conscription" of any other in game group. If you conscripted the Mages, Templars, or the Wardens (sort of), their consent doesn't really matter either. They do as they are told. They are resources appropriated and used by the Inquisition for sake of A- Closing the rift, and B- Defeating Corypheus. The Inquisition is not a hospital, its goal is not the curing of the Tranquil Mages, and considering the gravity of what the organization is facing not utilizing every asset is foolish and short sighted. The Tranquil are being solely used for their research abilities. They aren't being experimented on, they are being well fed and well taken care of, and their talents are being put to good use SAVING THE WORLD, so if ever a time came when they became cured I really doubt many of them would have complaints at how they were used by the Inquisition. "You had no way of knowing you'd find a cure and had far bigger concerns on your mind, but how dare you selfishly use my unique situation and skill set to help save every living thing on this planet (including the Tranquil) without my consent. You're an unsympathetic monster!" Yeah, really doubt we'd ever see that bit of dialogue lol.
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Post by shechinah on Feb 3, 2017 15:57:28 GMT
What I take issue with is the idea that the tranquil do not fit the biological definition of being alive. What you seem to be arguing, amongst other things, is a philosophical definition of being alive. Was the last bit of your post directed at me? Because I don't recall ever expressing approval or disapproval in regards to the rite of Tranquility.
No, this was not personal. I'm sorry if you felt so. (And ofc, the Tranquils alive, according biological definition – this is the reason, why dangerous this method.) Ah, tempers sometimes runs hot in these kinds of discussions and I didn’t know what the mood of the thread was so I thought I’d ask.
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Post by Walter Black on Feb 3, 2017 18:37:48 GMT
Oh come on, all fantasy is an exaggeration of one form or another; a man facing embarrassment at work over a stupid camp fight becomes one man's descent into madness and anarchist revolution. A woman desperately trying to come to terms with her child's death becomes the autobiographical musings of a tortured vampire. Idle speculation on Patty Hearst becomes a supernatural battle for post-apocalyptic America. A dog that was merely pissed off becomes a murderously rabid, possibly possessed monster. A professor wondering what kind of world would speak the new languages he liked to invent becomes a new industry and mythology. A drunken bet between bored rich kids becomes one of the ultimate consequences of hubris and irresponsibility. All the real origins of Fight Club, Interview with the Vampire, The Stand, Cujo, Lord of the Rings, and Frankenstein or The Modern Prometheus. Tranquility may be an exaggeration of people heavily medicated, but the origin of the metaphor still fits. Fantasy or not, should have to be consistent. No, this is not medicament. If you want a parallel, the word, what you look for, the lobotomy. Nope. Even prior to Asunder, Tranquiled Mages could still exercise basic survival and purpose completely independently, whereas a lobotomized person cannot survive alone at all. The fact that Mages cured of Tranquility experience heightened and erratic emotions just like someone suddenly coming off their meds, makes the comparison even more apt. It sounds to me like you're trying to force a quick and easy, black and white fix onto a complex and grey issue. That and ignore anything that counters the idea of Mages being Mary Sue wish fulfillment.
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Post by xerrai on Feb 3, 2017 18:59:37 GMT
Well, my viewpoint is that you're making a whole bunch of assumptions in the post I'm replying to, and that not all of them seem to be entirely reasonable. I don't think rereading will change that.
Again: we don't know that Seekers are possessed. And in fact the way the ritual is described, that they are "touched by spirits," seems to suggest they aren't. Nor do I think it would be a good thing if they were since once the Seeker is cured of Tranquility they can influence the spirit in a negative way.
And we don't know that mages can pass the test to become Seekers. We know of one who failed, and none that succeeded. We know that they had 1000 years to try, and we don't know that they were trying, but that doesn't mean the goal is one that can be succeeded at if they do try. Nor do we know that cured mages are immune to possession, since as far as I know we haven't seen that idea tested or found out what about the Seeker ritual makes those who pass it immune to possession. (If the Seeker already is possessed that would do it, but I don't think we have any other reason to believe that is how it works.)
We do know, or at least have reason to believe, that the general failure rate is scary enough to motivate Ameridan's entire group to eschew the ritual and motivate Haron to burn his brain out on lyrium instead. That's not reassuring. And we have reason to believe that apprentices are taught something about spirits. These seem to be pretty big holes in your idea that the Seeker ritual can entirely replace the Harrowing, and that the Harrowing is made to make mages want to become Tranquil. And you don't seem to even be trying to answer them.
I admit that the Seekers benefit from mages being locked up, but I don't think that's evidence that they suppressed knowledge that could have made it unnecessary. And while the ritual you're suggested should be tested, and we have no evidence that it has been, I think that should preclude being as sure it will work as you seem to be. You obviously did not read my post carefully. Care to explain Wynne? It seems to me that you are avoiding the delicate, political elements from my post in purpose. Care to comment about those also? About the seekers not being possessed: (1) we have the reaction of Karl when touched by Anders/Justice. A temporary touch by a spirit, which doesn`t last much. Then he reversed to his Tranquil self. Thus, we can expect the same outcome for Seekers if they are just touched. More, (2) the Seekers wanted to be a force of faith, hence their choice for a spirit of faith. That IS the purpose of the ritual, and the source of the magical kind of power they are receiving is from the spirit. So, there are two arguments in favor of possession, and none against. Do you have arguments disproving these, or in favor of not being possessed? Well fact of the matter is we simply don't know much about the Seeker ritual. We don't know if the Seekers are merely touched and thus permanently opening their mind up the fade, or are touched as in a part of the spirit still lingers, or that they are indeed abominations. Nor do we know the specifics of the ritual that presumably summoned the sprit of faith and thence protecting it from corruption so that it wont turn into a demon. All that wee know for sure is that it had a vigil and lyrium. We have seen the consequences for when possession goes wrong. So we actually have quite a few arguments against it. Prominent among them is the mere existence of things like hostile abominations--which is the most common threat to mages. Then we have the case of a Pharamond, who was possessed by a demon. Then we have the case of Justice, who was at first a benevolent spirit but was corrupted into Vengeance while within Anders. Debatably we can even include Gurd Harofsen and Hakkon Wintersbreath from the Jaws of Hakkon DLC, as they were essentially abominations/possessed as well. Seekers have to go through a extensive vigil on the purity of their faith, mages simply go about their lives full of various emotions and memories that have the potential to change spirits. The tranquil are a different matter, but the rush of emotion that comes from being cured will likely be a hodgepodge of emotions like fear, anger and happiness that will in turn affect the summoned spirit. So for all of the positives "stable" possession can bring, we have several-- several--instances of what happens when the possession goes wrong. Even the most well meaning of spirits can be corrupted. Which is the primary concern when proposing to extend the posession cure to mages.
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Post by Catilina on Feb 3, 2017 19:04:49 GMT
Fantasy or not, should have to be consistent. No, this is not medicament. If you want a parallel, the word, what you look for, the lobotomy. Nope. Even prior to Asunder, Tranquiled Mages could still exercise basic survival and purpose completely independently, whereas a lobotomized person cannot survive alone at all. The fact that Mages cured of Tranquility experience heightened and erratic emotions just like someone suddenly coming off their meds, makes the comparison even more apt. It sounds to me like you're trying to force a quick and easy, black and white fix onto a complex and grey issue. That and ignore anything that counters the idea of Mages being Mary Sue wish fulfillment. Because this is not really grey. I can imagine, that originally the intention was good. But later they didn't seek another solutions, and didn't stopped this clearly cruel method. Look: they considered blood magic as evil thing, because the blood mage able to controlling anothers' mind. And the Chantry? They irreversibly spoilt the other's mind without remorse, in fact, they called this "solution": merciful. No, there are no safe cure yet. So: this is bad. Black. Clearly. Tranquils also unable to survive alone. And again. This is not medicament, not even similar.
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Post by fylimar on Feb 3, 2017 20:32:28 GMT
I know I'm late to the party on this, but honestly the "shelving" of the Tranquil until such a time an actual cure "could" be discovered (which the Inquisition only really happened upon by accident if they did Cassy's Seeker quests) is both a waist of resources, and actually sort of cruel. While the Tranquil don't seem to have what you'd call a traditional will of their own, when you talk to them in game they do seem to have at the very least a drive to be productive. They are skilled and they are useful, and they "want" to be doing something. Think of their use by the Inquisition as being no different than the "conscription" of any other in game group. If you conscripted the Mages, Templars, or the Wardens (sort of), their consent doesn't really matter either. They do as they are told. They are resources appropriated and used by the Inquisition for sake of A- Closing the rift, and B- Defeating Corypheus. The Inquisition is not a hospital, its goal is not the curing of the Tranquil Mages, and considering the gravity of what the organization is facing not utilizing every asset is foolish and short sighted. The Tranquil are being solely used for their research abilities. They aren't being experimented on, they are being well fed and well taken care of, and their talents are being put to good use SAVING THE WORLD, so if ever a time came when they became cured I really doubt many of them would have complaints at how they were used by the Inquisition. "You had no way of knowing you'd find a cure and had far bigger concerns on your mind, but how dare you selfishly use my unique situation and skill set to help save every living thing on this planet (including the Tranquil) without my consent. You're an unsympathetic monster!" Yeah, really doubt we'd ever see that bit of dialogue lol. I agree, the tranquils taking in by the inquisition have it a lot better than the ones, still roaming the lands and maybe fall prey to the venatori. They are well treated and from what I get from the dialogues, mostly respected. They have a place to stay, food, clothing. As far as I can see it, the Inquisitor is not responsible for the tranquils (well maybe you can roleplay a human inqui, who is a templar, but even then, you don't have to agree with the rite of tranquility and as inqui, you don#t have to make anyone tranquil), but leaving them to themselves would be much more cruel than taking them in and giving them something to do and a safe home to stay until the crisis is over. The tranquil in Redcliffe even asks for a job - he at least knows, that staying in Redcliffe would not be the most sensitive action for him and he recognises the inquisition as benevolent for him. And the girl that takes over for Minaeve remembers, that she was fond of animals and therefore feels, that she is suited for the task of researching creatures. So they basically can get voice their preferrences and my inquis at least wont stay in their way.
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Post by Iakus on Feb 3, 2017 23:17:41 GMT
So for all of the positives "stable" possession can bring, we have several-- several--instances of what happens when the possession goes wrong. Even the most well meaning of spirits can be corrupted. Which is the primary concern when proposing to extend the posession cure to mages. Yup. It has to be understood that spirits are highly mutable beings, and are changed based on their surroundings. Possession is not something to undertake lightly. Both the person and the spirit need to be totally in sync with each other. Otherwise, even a decent person like Anders was able to corrupt Justice.
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Post by Catilina on Feb 3, 2017 23:46:36 GMT
Yup. It has to be understood that spirits are highly mutable beings, and are changed based on their surroundings. Possession is not something to undertake lightly. Both the person and the spirit need to be totally in sync with each other. Otherwise, even a decent person like Anders was able to corrupt Justice. Yes, Anders's a decent, but very, very angry, frustrated and depressed person. He's damaged by Circle-system. So: Not Justice or Anders, the oppression is the reason. The circumstances in the Circles. Don't forget: Anders in Awakening was a very sad, sarcastic man.
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Post by lobselvith8 on Feb 4, 2017 1:50:25 GMT
I know I'm late to the party on this, but honestly the "shelving" of the Tranquil until such a time an actual cure "could" be discovered (which the Inquisition only really happened upon by accident if they did Cassy's Seeker quests) is both a waist of resources, and actually sort of cruel. While the Tranquil don't seem to have what you'd call a traditional will of their own, when you talk to them in game they do seem to have at the very least a drive to be productive. They are skilled and they are useful, and they "want" to be doing something. Think of their use by the Inquisition as being no different than the "conscription" of any other in game group. If you conscripted the Mages, Templars, or the Wardens (sort of), their consent doesn't really matter either. They do as they are told. They are resources appropriated and used by the Inquisition for sake of A- Closing the rift, and B- Defeating Corypheus. The Inquisition is not a hospital, its goal is not the curing of the Tranquil Mages, and considering the gravity of what the organization is facing not utilizing every asset is foolish and short sighted. The Tranquil are being solely used for their research abilities. They aren't being experimented on, they are being well fed and well taken care of, and their talents are being put to good use SAVING THE WORLD, so if ever a time came when they became cured I really doubt many of them would have complaints at how they were used by the Inquisition. "You had no way of knowing you'd find a cure and had far bigger concerns on your mind, but how dare you selfishly use my unique situation and skill set to help save every living thing on this planet (including the Tranquil) without my consent. You're an unsympathetic monster!" Yeah, really doubt we'd ever see that bit of dialogue lol. I agree, the tranquils taking in by the inquisition have it a lot better than the ones, still roaming the lands and maybe fall prey to the venatori. They are well treated and from what I get from the dialogues, mostly respected. They have a place to stay, food, clothing. As far as I can see it, the Inquisitor is not responsible for the tranquils (well maybe you can roleplay a human inqui, who is a templar, but even then, you don't have to agree with the rite of tranquility and as inqui, you don#t have to make anyone tranquil), but leaving them to themselves would be much more cruel than taking them in and giving them something to do and a safe home to stay until the crisis is over. The tranquil in Redcliffe even asks for a job - he at least knows, that staying in Redcliffe would not be the most sensitive action for him and he recognises the inquisition as benevolent for him. And the girl that takes over for Minaeve remembers, that she was fond of animals and therefore feels, that she is suited for the task of researching creatures. So they basically can get voice their preferrences and my inquis at least wont stay in their way. But Owain, in contrast, decided that cleaning the storeroom was the best thing to do while abominations were loose (and didn't even try to let Wynne know he was on the other side of the barrier when he encountered it, which also puzzled her) and Karl refers to his time as a tranquil as a 'templar puppet'. It's an abhorrent process, so I fully understand why some people would be uncomfortable with a scenario that seems to 'take advantage' of people who are robbed of their emotions.
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Post by fylimar on Feb 4, 2017 6:24:48 GMT
I agree, the tranquils taking in by the inquisition have it a lot better than the ones, still roaming the lands and maybe fall prey to the venatori. They are well treated and from what I get from the dialogues, mostly respected. They have a place to stay, food, clothing. As far as I can see it, the Inquisitor is not responsible for the tranquils (well maybe you can roleplay a human inqui, who is a templar, but even then, you don't have to agree with the rite of tranquility and as inqui, you don#t have to make anyone tranquil), but leaving them to themselves would be much more cruel than taking them in and giving them something to do and a safe home to stay until the crisis is over. The tranquil in Redcliffe even asks for a job - he at least knows, that staying in Redcliffe would not be the most sensitive action for him and he recognises the inquisition as benevolent for him. And the girl that takes over for Minaeve remembers, that she was fond of animals and therefore feels, that she is suited for the task of researching creatures. So they basically can get voice their preferrences and my inquis at least wont stay in their way. But Owain, in contrast, decided that cleaning the storeroom was the best thing to do while abominations were loose (and didn't even try to let Wynne know he was on the other side of the barrier when he encountered it, which also puzzled her) and Karl refers to his time as a tranquil as a 'templar puppet'. It's an abhorrent process, so I fully understand why some people would be uncomfortable with a scenario that seems to 'take advantage' of people who are robbed of their emotions. And what else would you do? Leave them to their fate? The tranquil in Redcliffe seems to be very aware of the dangers, he is in and asks specifically for help and a job as an alchemist. After discovering the tranquil skulls in that hutt in Redcliffe, I'd have to be a monster not taking him in. I'm pretty sure, most would agree that the right of tranquility is a barbaric practice ( do agree fully), but if people are already made tranquil, they don't need fear or being shoved away, they need help imo - uncomfortable or not.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Feb 4, 2017 9:12:48 GMT
Well, my viewpoint is that you're making a whole bunch of assumptions in the post I'm replying to, and that not all of them seem to be entirely reasonable. I don't think rereading will change that.
Again: we don't know that Seekers are possessed. And in fact the way the ritual is described, that they are "touched by spirits," seems to suggest they aren't. Nor do I think it would be a good thing if they were since once the Seeker is cured of Tranquility they can influence the spirit in a negative way.
And we don't know that mages can pass the test to become Seekers. We know of one who failed, and none that succeeded. We know that they had 1000 years to try, and we don't know that they were trying, but that doesn't mean the goal is one that can be succeeded at if they do try. Nor do we know that cured mages are immune to possession, since as far as I know we haven't seen that idea tested or found out what about the Seeker ritual makes those who pass it immune to possession. (If the Seeker already is possessed that would do it, but I don't think we have any other reason to believe that is how it works.)
We do know, or at least have reason to believe, that the general failure rate is scary enough to motivate Ameridan's entire group to eschew the ritual and motivate Haron to burn his brain out on lyrium instead. That's not reassuring. And we have reason to believe that apprentices are taught something about spirits. These seem to be pretty big holes in your idea that the Seeker ritual can entirely replace the Harrowing, and that the Harrowing is made to make mages want to become Tranquil. And you don't seem to even be trying to answer them.
I admit that the Seekers benefit from mages being locked up, but I don't think that's evidence that they suppressed knowledge that could have made it unnecessary. And while the ritual you're suggested should be tested, and we have no evidence that it has been, I think that should preclude being as sure it will work as you seem to be. You obviously did not read my post carefully. Care to explain Wynne? It seems to me that you are avoiding the delicate, political elements from my post in purpose. Care to comment about those also? About the seekers not being possessed: (1) we have the reaction of Karl when touched by Anders/Justice. A temporary touch by a spirit, which doesn`t last much. Then he reversed to his Tranquil self. Thus, we can expect the same outcome for Seekers if they are just touched. More, (2) the Seekers wanted to be a force of faith, hence their choice for a spirit of faith. That IS the purpose of the ritual, and the source of the magical kind of power they are receiving is from the spirit. So, there are two arguments in favor of possession, and none against. Do you have arguments disproving these, or in favor of not being possessed? I'm not trying to prove they aren't possessed, because I don't think we know they aren't. My argument from the start was that you're making very definitive claims about what is and isn't possible in this setting's magic system, and on what is and isn't true about Tranquility, when we don't have enough evidence to make a very good case either way. That's an argument that isn't going to involve much proof. As for why I didn't comment much on the political arguments, whether or not the Seekers would institute the system you desire if it was possible has little to do with whether or not it is possible. (Further, you'll remember that I actually pointed out that you're probably right that part of the reason the Chantry wants to control the Circles is to increase their own power.) Though while we're on the subject of what certain people seem to be avoiding, might I ask why you didn't answer my argument that if the ritual does involve being possessed by spirits, that makes it unsafe? If the ritual involves a spirit rewiring someone to make them immune to possession, that already involves enough contact with their heads to be dangerous. If the ritual involves taking up residence in that person's head, it's even more so. As far as your arguments for Seekers being possessed, the obvious response to #1 is that Justice wasn't trying to cure Tranquility permanently, and in fact didn't think it was possible. He probably didn't even directly touch Karl; Karl just got hit with the energy Justice was throwing around. For #2, the obvious response is that I have no idea what that has to do with whether they're possessed, or merely altered. And to go a little farther and give weak evidence they aren't possessed, you'd kind of expect the Seeker to notice that there's a spirit in their heads. (It might be that the spirit's hiding its presence, and I could probably even think of reasons why it might do so if I tried, but I think most of them would go out the window when Cassandra finds out she's been touched by a spirit at the end of her quest.) And I don't really see why I need to explain Wynne, or even what about Wynne you think I need to explain. We know she's possessed, but what does that have to do with whether or not the Seekers are? If you're trying to argue that she's relevant to whether or not mages can become Seekers, first you'll need to explain why you think she counts as a Seeker, which will involve proving that Seekers are possessed... which I don't think you've done. And another argument of mine you seem to be avoiding: what about the failure rate of the ritual? I don't think you've properly explained why you think that's not a major obstacle. For permanent Tranquility to become 100% unnecessary, you'd need to be able to get the failure rate to 100% of zero. I don't think we have any reason to believe that that can be done, or even that you can improve the failure rate of a ritual that hinges on a spirit with limited control of its own nature interacting with humans capable of corrupting it.
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Post by shechinah on Feb 4, 2017 12:11:23 GMT
But Owain, in contrast, decided that cleaning the storeroom was the best thing to do while abominations were loose (and didn't even try to let Wynne know he was on the other side of the barrier when he encountered it, which also puzzled her) and Karl refers to his time as a tranquil as a 'templar puppet'. It's an abhorrent process, so I fully understand why some people would be uncomfortable with a scenario that seems to 'take advantage' of people who are robbed of their emotions.Except how does what the Inquisition seem to be doing with the Tranquil "taking advantage" of them? As I recall, the Tranquil are well-treated, well-protected and are being allowed to do what they themselves wanted to do like research and alchemy.
I'd consider taking advantage of them would involve doing something like using their lack of self-preservation to make them into expendable resources or their lack of emotion to use them for something like sexual slavery.
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Post by Catilina on Feb 4, 2017 13:25:06 GMT
You obviously did not read my post carefully. Care to explain Wynne? It seems to me that you are avoiding the delicate, political elements from my post in purpose. Care to comment about those also? About the seekers not being possessed: (1) we have the reaction of Karl when touched by Anders/Justice. A temporary touch by a spirit, which doesn`t last much. Then he reversed to his Tranquil self. Thus, we can expect the same outcome for Seekers if they are just touched. More, (2) the Seekers wanted to be a force of faith, hence their choice for a spirit of faith. That IS the purpose of the ritual, and the source of the magical kind of power they are receiving is from the spirit. So, there are two arguments in favor of possession, and none against. Do you have arguments disproving these, or in favor of not being possessed? [...] And another argument of mine you seem to be avoiding: what about the failure rate of the ritual? I don't think you've properly explained why you think that's not a major obstacle. For permanent Tranquility to become 100% unnecessary, you'd need to be able to get the failure rate to 100% of zero. I don't think we have any reason to believe that that can be done, or even that you can improve the failure rate of a ritual that hinges on a spirit with limited control of its own nature interacting with humans capable of corrupting it. Humans capable to corrupting also another human's brain... with the rite of tranquility. This is NOT a solution, there is no excuse. This is just a cruel "troubleshooting"/"prevention"; no better than murder, in fact, even worse. If we have an inherently wrong "solution", then we need to try anything else ... even is not 100% safe. So: if we have a wrong "solution", we don't have any solution.
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Post by lobselvith8 on Feb 4, 2017 16:12:40 GMT
But Owain, in contrast, decided that cleaning the storeroom was the best thing to do while abominations were loose (and didn't even try to let Wynne know he was on the other side of the barrier when he encountered it, which also puzzled her) and Karl refers to his time as a tranquil as a 'templar puppet'. It's an abhorrent process, so I fully understand why some people would be uncomfortable with a scenario that seems to 'take advantage' of people who are robbed of their emotions. And what else would you do? Leave them to their fate? I'm fairly certain I didn't advocate leaving the tranquil to die. I did explain that what was done to the tranquil is so monstrous that it's obvious why some people would feel morally uncomfortable with putting them to work for them when their autonomy is questionable at best (particularly given the examples of tranquil like Owain and Karl). The tranquil in Redcliffe seems to be very aware of the dangers, he is in and asks specifically for help and a job as an alchemist. After discovering the tranquil skulls in that hutt in Redcliffe, I'd have to be a monster not taking him in. I'm pretty sure, most would agree that the right of tranquility is a barbaric practice ( do agree fully), but if people are already made tranquil, they don't need fear or being shoved away, they need help imo - uncomfortable or not. Considering that even the OP never said they should be shoved away, who - exactly - is that remark aimed at?
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Feb 4, 2017 18:45:49 GMT
[...] And another argument of mine you seem to be avoiding: what about the failure rate of the ritual? I don't think you've properly explained why you think that's not a major obstacle. For permanent Tranquility to become 100% unnecessary, you'd need to be able to get the failure rate to 100% of zero. I don't think we have any reason to believe that that can be done, or even that you can improve the failure rate of a ritual that hinges on a spirit with limited control of its own nature interacting with humans capable of corrupting it. Humans capable to corrupting also another human's brain... with the rite of tranquility. This is NOT a solution, there is no excuse. This is just a cruel "troubleshooting"/"prevention"; no better than murder, in fact, even worse. If we have an inherently wrong "solution", then we need to try anything else ... even is not 100% safe. So: if we have a wrong "solution", we don't have any solution. I agree that the thing adrianbc's pushing should be tried. All I'm saying is that there's no guarantee that this will work. And as for your argument that if we have a wrong solution we have no solution: what do you recommend doing before they get this to work, and what do you recommend them doing if it doesn't? Oh, wait, you recommend killing even the mages who would take Tranquility if it's offered. I don't think you've managed to explain how that's the moral answer to this question.
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Post by Catilina on Feb 4, 2017 19:08:52 GMT
Humans capable to corrupting also another human's brain... with the rite of tranquility. This is NOT a solution, there is no excuse. This is just a cruel "troubleshooting"/"prevention"; no better than murder, in fact, even worse. If we have an inherently wrong "solution", then we need to try anything else ... even is not 100% safe. So: if we have a wrong "solution", we don't have any solution. I agree that the thing adrianbc's pushing should be tried. All I'm saying is that there's no guarantee that this will work. And as for your argument that if we have a wrong solution we have no solution: what do you recommend doing before they get this to work, and what do you recommend them doing if it doesn't? Oh, wait, you recommend killing even the mages who would take Tranquility if it's offered. I don't think you've managed to explain how that's the moral answer to this question. Because this is not a solution. At least not better than murder. They shut down a portion of brain functioning of normal, healthy mages, because afraid from the Harrowing or failed. You don't think that the murder is a solution, I don't think, even the tranquilising is a solution. This is clear. You think, I don't have solution. But even nor you, in my viewpoint. adrianbc and others already offered some good solutions: avvar, rivain. You think, these are not perfect, and the tranquilising is better solution, because more effective. And you refused these, because not 100%. And I said the tranquilising is NOT a solution, this is murder. So: I support any other solution, just not the tranquility, because this is NOT a solution.
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Post by lobselvith8 on Feb 4, 2017 19:12:49 GMT
But Owain, in contrast, decided that cleaning the storeroom was the best thing to do while abominations were loose (and didn't even try to let Wynne know he was on the other side of the barrier when he encountered it, which also puzzled her) and Karl refers to his time as a tranquil as a 'templar puppet'. It's an abhorrent process, so I fully understand why some people would be uncomfortable with a scenario that seems to 'take advantage' of people who are robbed of their emotions.Except how does what the Inquisition seem to be doing with the Tranquil "taking advantage" of them? You can take advantage of someone in different ways, including with regards using them as labor to your advantage when it isn't necessarily to their benefit. Hence, why I understand the reason folks like Xil take issue with the Inquisition using the tranquil as labor instead of trying to reverse a process that people like her find morally reprehensible. As I recall, the Tranquil are well-treated, well-protected and are being allowed to do what they themselves wanted to do like research and alchemy. Being 'protected' and having some liberties reads similar to some argument I've perused about why mages should be content in the Chantry controlled Circles. That we know how Karl begged for death instead of a return to being a 'templar puppet', and that Alrik used the Rite of Tranquility to rape mages, suggests that the process prohibits them from having true autonomy. It's simplistically easy to understand why this would be an issue for anyone who thinks the tranquil should be helped instead of used as labor. I'd consider taking advantage of them would involve doing something like using their lack of self-preservation to make them into expendable resources or their lack of emotion to use them for something like sexual slavery. You can take advantage of someone in other ways.
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Post by xerrai on Feb 4, 2017 20:21:16 GMT
I agree that the thing adrianbc's pushing should be tried. All I'm saying is that there's no guarantee that this will work. And as for your argument that if we have a wrong solution we have no solution: what do you recommend doing before they get this to work, and what do you recommend them doing if it doesn't? Oh, wait, you recommend killing even the mages who would take Tranquility if it's offered. I don't think you've managed to explain how that's the moral answer to this question. Because this is not a solution. At least not better than murder. They shut down a portion of brain functioning of normal, healthy mages, because afraid from the Harrowing or failed. You don't think that the murder is a solution, I don't think, even the tranquilising is a solution. This is clear. You think, I don't have solution. But even nor you, in my viewpoint. adrianbc and others already offered some good solutions: avvar, rivain. You think, these are not perfect, and the tranquilising is better solution, because more effective. And you refused these, because not 100%. And I said the tranquilising is NOT a solution, this is murder. So: I support any other solution, just not the tranquility, because this is NOT a solution. Except those solutions are hardly solutions at all. Nearly all instances of possession in the Circle ends badly with the sole exception of Wynne. If we were to immediately implement possession as an alternative to harrowing/tranquil, then it would be little better than trying to kill them anyway given its high failure rate. So its not really much of a solution at all. The only reason the avaar/rivaini are so efficient at it is because of the unique culture/magic they have cultivated which deliberately reduces the chance of demonic abominations and spiritual corruption. Hell, the avaar have an entire spirit community dedicated to warding off demons, and an avaar community dedicated to spiritual purity. The Rivaini also presumably use their own methods to reduce the risk. And what does the Circle have? They have nothing. Most end up becoming either becoming monsters or become corrupted into something dangerous. Both end up getting killed in some manner (and oftentimes for good reason). So if you view tranquilizing as murder, how is a failed possession any different? Because failed possessions is what will most likely happen if you were to try and implement it as a tranquil alternative as it I now.
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Post by Catilina on Feb 4, 2017 20:35:20 GMT
Because this is not a solution. At least not better than murder. They shut down a portion of brain functioning of normal, healthy mages, because afraid from the Harrowing or failed. You don't think that the murder is a solution, I don't think, even the tranquilising is a solution. This is clear. You think, I don't have solution. But even nor you, in my viewpoint. adrianbc and others already offered some good solutions: avvar, rivain. You think, these are not perfect, and the tranquilising is better solution, because more effective. And you refused these, because not 100%. And I said the tranquilising is NOT a solution, this is murder. So: I support any other solution, just not the tranquility, because this is NOT a solution. Except those solutions are hardly solutions at all. Nearly all instances of possession in the Circle ends badly with the sole exception of Wynne. If we were to immediately implement possession as an alternative to harrowing/tranquil, then it would be little better than trying to kill them anyway given its high failure rate. So its not really much of a solution at all. The only reason the avaar/rivaini are so efficient at it is because of the unique culture/magic they have cultivated which deliberately reduces the chance of demonic abominations and spiritual corruption. Hell, the avaar have an entire spirit community dedicated to warding off demons, and an avaar community dedicated to spiritual purity. The Rivaini also presumably use their own methods to reduce the risk. And what does the Circle have? They have nothing. Most end up becoming either becoming monsters or become corrupted into something dangerous. Both end up getting killed in some manner (and oftentimes for good reason). So if you view tranquilizing as murder, how is a failed possession any different? Because failed possessions is what will most likely happen if you were to try and implement it as a tranquil alternative as it I now. So: there are no solution, you say. Then kill them, IF must. This is MY solution, if the Circle/Chantry can't/don't want to learn. Murder is so cruel, is not? Ugh! Soul murder is so merciful! This is the biggest problem with the tranquility. EASY. (You forget Anders. He and Justice also successful...)
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Post by shechinah on Feb 4, 2017 20:57:34 GMT
Except how does what the Inquisition seem to be doing with the Tranquil "taking advantage" of them? You can take advantage of someone in different ways, including with regards using them as labor to your advantage when it isn't necessarily to their benefit. Hence, why I understand the reason folks like Xil take issue with the Inquisition using the tranquil as labor instead of trying to reverse a process that people like her find morally reprehensible. I'd consider trying to stop Corypheus as being to the benefit of everybody including the Tranquils. This is especially given that his men have actively been hunting Tranquils for purposes not to said Tranquil's benefit and well-being. This is also not a case of the means justifying the ends being argued here: the Tranquil are being treated well and their abilities are being used to combat an evil that endangers them as well and have specifically been targeting them.
I have yet to read Asunder for myself so I'm going by what I've read elsewhere: people whose tranquility have been reversed are very emotionally unstable because of how long their "emotional core" has been removed and so they've "unlearned" how to handle emotions.
Given this, I'd consider it to be in the Tranquil's best interest to wait with any attempts at reversing the rite of tranquility to after the war on Corypheus. That way, there can be dedicated structure, time and resources to researching the rite, reversing the rite and most importantly, treating the once-Tranquil including helping them re-learn how to handle their emotions in a consistently safe enviroment. During the war, these things would be strained at best. Additionally, the emotional stress of being in an "end of the world"-scenario would be enough to break even someone very disciplined in handling their emotions. Not to mention that many once-Tranquils likely stand the chance of developing post-traumatic stress such as from what some underwent at the hands of templars and mages.
Basically, waiting until after the war would make it far more likely that the once-Tranquils would have the time and resources devoted to them that they'd need during their recuperation and adjustment especially given the psychological trauma a fair number of them would likely also need help with. Because of this, I do not consider any attempt to cure them during the war to be of any benefit to the Tranquil and in fact, be of detriment to their health and well-being.
Waiting also seems to be in line with one of xilizhra's statements in the opening post: “The only thing that should be done with Tranquil is curing them, or if there's a problem with resources, keeping them comfortable until they can be cured."
Although I think that any plans to implement a mass curing of Tranquils should be put on hold until the long-terms effects of the reversal ritual can be studied for the safety of the tranquils who would have the cure administered to them. If what I've read is correct then Pharamond died before those could be studied. It would also allow for better post-cure treatment, I think.
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Post by xerrai on Feb 4, 2017 21:25:22 GMT
Except those solutions are hardly solutions at all. Nearly all instances of possession in the Circle ends badly with the sole exception of Wynne. If we were to immediately implement possession as an alternative to harrowing/tranquil, then it would be little better than trying to kill them anyway given its high failure rate. So its not really much of a solution at all. The only reason the avaar/rivaini are so efficient at it is because of the unique culture/magic they have cultivated which deliberately reduces the chance of demonic abominations and spiritual corruption. Hell, the avaar have an entire spirit community dedicated to warding off demons, and an avaar community dedicated to spiritual purity. The Rivaini also presumably use their own methods to reduce the risk. And what does the Circle have? They have nothing. Most end up becoming either becoming monsters or become corrupted into something dangerous. Both end up getting killed in some manner (and oftentimes for good reason). So if you view tranquilizing as murder, how is a failed possession any different? Because failed possessions is what will most likely happen if you were to try and implement it as a tranquil alternative as it I now. So: there are no solution, you say. Then kill them, IF must. This is MY solution, if the Circle/Chantry can't/don't want to learn. Murder is so cruel, is not? Ugh! Soul murder is so merciful! This is the biggest problem with the tranquility. EASY. (You forget Anders. He and Justice also successful...) Actually I didn't include Anders because I don't consider him a "success". At some point or another, Justice corrupted into Vengeance, and fueled Ander's desire for radical actions in order to free the mages. A radical action that murdered a decent number of priests and innocent bystanders. While it may have been a mutually beneficial possession at the beginning, Anders is an example of what an extended possession can do to a spirit and mage alike. In other words, he is yet another example of the dangers of possession.
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Post by Catilina on Feb 4, 2017 21:36:01 GMT
You can take advantage of someone in different ways, including with regards using them as labor to your advantage when it isn't necessarily to their benefit. Hence, why I understand the reason folks like Xil take issue with the Inquisition using the tranquil as labor instead of trying to reverse a process that people like her find morally reprehensible. I'd consider trying to stop Corypheus as being to the benefit of everybody including the Tranquils. This is especially given that his men have actively been hunting Tranquils for purposes not to said Tranquil's benefit and well-being. This is also not a case of the means justifying the ends being argued here: the Tranquil are being treated well and their abilities are being used to combat an evil that endangers them as well and have specifically been targeting them. I have yet to read Asunder for myself so I'm going by what I've read elsewhere: people whose tranquility have been reversed are very emotionally unstable because of how long their "emotional core" has been removed and so they've "unlearned" how to handle emotions.
Given this, I'd consider it to be in the Tranquil's best interest to wait with any attempts at reversing the rite of tranquility to after the war on Corypheus. That way, there can be dedicated structure, time and resources to researching the rite, reversing the rite and most importantly, treating the once-Tranquil including helping them re-learn how to handle their emotions in a consistently safe enviroment. During the war, these things would be strained at best. Additionally, the emotional stress of being in an "end of the world"-scenario would be enough to break even someone very disciplined in handling their emotions. Not to mention that many once-Tranquils likely stand the chance of developing post-traumatic stress such as from what some underwent at the hands of templars and mages.
Basically, waiting until after the war would make it far more likely that the once-Tranquils would have the time and resources devoted to them that they'd need during their recuperation and adjustment especially given the psychological trauma a fair number of them would likely also need help with. Because of this, I do not consider any attempt to cure them during the war to be of any benefit to the Tranquil and in fact, be of detriment to their health and well-being.
Waiting also seems to be in line with one of xilizhra's statements in the opening post: “The only thing that should be done with Tranquil is curing them, or if there's a problem with resources, keeping them comfortable until they can be cured."
Although I think that any plans to implement a mass curing of Tranquils should be put on hold until the long-terms effects of the reversal ritual can be studied for the safety of the tranquils who would have the cure administered to them. If what I've read is correct then Pharamond died before those could be studied. It would also allow for better post-cure treatment, I think. I agree, that this is hard, as long as the war is finished. But perhaps the experiment can continuing in safe place, with volunteer Tranquils. And there are a good question again. They have will, but not same as before. So: I'm not sure, that in their current state of mind, they want to back their emotions especially uncertain outcome, and they have survival instinct. But I can imagine, that they are persuadable with the argument: useful. One more question: whether it is abuse? I never refused them, because they can't live alone. I agree, refusing them is cruel. The one thing, that seems can give some sense to their life, that is their work and the usefulness.
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