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Post by roro4066 on Feb 22, 2017 6:47:35 GMT
Hey guys,
I'm new here so cheers every one. I'm also french so please try to be tolerant about my english mistakes. i think i have quite a lot to share about dai and to learn from you all as well, so let's start with that glitch, bug around the enhanced twin fangs ring. yesterday i decided to switch my rings for my dw rogue female inquisitor. i had an enhanced ring of twin fangs on and decided to better replace it with 2 superb rings of critical damage bonus since my flanking critical hit chance is 98%. So about numbers it should make 30% damage bonus, vs 40% when replaced, so the ring of twin fangs should be weaker.
But after about 20 tests in western approach i found out that i was doing about 2 times 3000 damage with one enhanced ring of twin fangs, and only about 2 times 2500 damage with 2 superb rings of critical damage bonus. So the conclusion is you do more damage with just one level 10 ring than the 2 level 20 rings even if your critical hit chance reaches the 100%. This should be a bug you guys may have already noticed, so could you please tell me what you know about it? So now i'm wearing 1 enhanced ring of twin fangs in combination to 1 superb ring of critical damage bonus to do around 2 times 3300 damage when using the related ability.
see ya
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Post by rynas on Feb 22, 2017 16:45:39 GMT
What is your critical damage bonus without any rings? See here, especially the damage formula calculations: bsn.boards.net/thread/472/guide-documentation-combat-mechanicsThe crit damage rings add 40 percentage points to critical damage, not 40%. So if your crit damage bonus is +100%, it will increase it to +140%, which means your crits will only have 20% higher damage (2.4x instead of 2.0x damage).
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roro4066
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Post by roro4066 on Feb 22, 2017 18:15:59 GMT
Thanks rynas, i really appreciate your quick feedback. I just checked my attributes without any rings and my critical damage bonus value is 81%. So, from what was clear to me, i'm supposed to do 1.81 times my regular damage when i score a crit. That is to say for example 1000 hit points damage with a normal hit and 1810 hit points damage with a critical hit. can you confirm that? So if we can be sure about that, an enhanced ring of twin fangs should bring 30% extra damage to the ability: 1.81+0.3 = 2.11 times the regular damage when crit. On the other hand, 2 superb rings of critical damage bonus should bring 40% extra damage on every hit or ability that scores a crit (this is here the case because i'm only doing crit when flanking) : that makes 1.81+0.2+0.2 = 2.21 times the regular damage. So instead of having more damage bonus with the 2 purple rings (normally 10% more) i've got less damage bonus (about 17%less) than with a single blue ring. This why i'm thinking of a possible bug.
See you
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Post by rynas on Feb 22, 2017 18:26:27 GMT
I believe it should be 1.81*1.3 = 2.35x regular damage with the Twin Fangs ring. It may not actually be quite that high depending on what kind of damage multiplier it is, but that's the idea. Meanwhile, yes, the crit damage rings should give 2.21x damage.
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Post by roro4066 on Feb 22, 2017 18:55:06 GMT
Thanks a lot bro, So i think this is what i was looking for, i mean your formula : 1.81*1.3 This doesn't explain the quite large difference of about 17% but it explains why the enhanced ring brings more to the table than the 2 superb rings. So i guess we have to admit those enhanced rings are really powerfull if you use the related ability often enough. Actually they can be more powerfull in some builds than all purple rings like attack or critical damage bonus for example. i play a tempest so don't need to tell you how important twin fangs is for me.... So i think i will keep my blue ring and add anyway a purple one in the other slot since you can't stack the blue ones (from what i have tested). Thanks for your help and have fun
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Feb 22, 2017 20:15:49 GMT
Thanks rynas, i really appreciate your quick feedback. I just checked my attributes without any rings and my critical damage bonus value is 81%. So, from what was clear to me, i'm supposed to do 1.81 times my regular damage when i score a crit. That is to say for example 1000 hit points damage with a normal hit and 1810 hit points damage with a critical hit. can you confirm that? So if we can be sure about that, an enhanced ring of twin fangs should bring 30% extra damage to the ability: 1.81+0.3 = 2.11 times the regular damage when crit. On the other hand, 2 superb rings of critical damage bonus should bring 40% extra damage on every hit or ability that scores a crit (this is here the case because i'm only doing crit when flanking) : that makes 1.81+0.2+0.2 = 2.21 times the regular damage. So instead of having more damage bonus with the 2 purple rings (normally 10% more) i've got less damage bonus (about 17%less) than with a single blue ring. This why i'm thinking of a possible bug. See you I believe it should be 1.81*1.3 = 2.35x regular damage with the Twin Fangs ring. It may not actually be quite that high depending on what kind of damage multiplier it is, but that's the idea. Meanwhile, yes, the crit damage rings should give 2.21x damage. Guys, I think you might be confused. You are misreading the damage formula. Here's the damage formula, linked above, for reference: final_damage = (base_damage * rand(0.95 to 1.05) - armor * (1 - armor_penetration)) * (ability_multiplier) * (1 + critical_damage_bonus + flanking_bonus) * (1 + attack_bonus + damage_multiplier + type_bonus) * (1 - magic_resistance)
critical_damage_bonus = (critical_chance * critical_damage). I think that's the detail you both missed. I know the term name is misleading, but that's what it means. You can't just take your 81% critical damage and apply it, *unless* your critical chance is exactly 100%. You have to multiply it by your critical chance. So with all rings removed but all other gear equipped, what is your critical chance% and critical damage%? And your attack% while we are at it, since that is important also.The Enhanced Twin Fangs ring is a 30% bonus to the ability_multiplier of 200%. It's not clear whether the Enhanced Ring adds 30% or multiplies by 130%. We'll assume it just adds, but you can try it both ways to see what matches actual numbers better. Let's run an example. We'll ignore the effects of armor and randomization and the flanking damage bonus, since that should be the same either way. Note that each calculation is only for one hit. Twin Fangs does two hits, so you would multiply the final totals by 2 to get the total damage for the ability. Ignoring the flanking damage bonus. base_damage = 100, attack_bonus = 10%, critical_chance=20%, critical_damage=81%, ability_multiplier=200% without the ring and 230% with. Using two Superb Critical Damage Rings adds 40% to critical_damage, do you agree? So the modified value of critical_damage would be 121%. So with two Superb rings we get: (100) * (2.00) * (1 + (0.20 * 1.21)) * (1 + 0.10) = 100 * 2.00 * 1.242 * 1.10 = 273.24 Now compare to the Enhanced Ring: (100) * (2.30) * (1 + (0.20 * 0.81)) * (1 + 0.10) = 100 * 2.30 * 1.162 * 1.10 = 293.986 The thing to observe is that the higher your critical_chance, the more valuable the two Superb Rings are going to be. Let's say your critical_chance is 50% instead of just 20%: (100) * (2.00) * (1 + (0.50 * 1.21)) * (1 + 0.10) = 100 * 2.00 * 1.605 * 1.10 = 353.1
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Post by rynas on Feb 22, 2017 20:28:08 GMT
Hi PapaCharlie9, I wasn't confused - was comparing damage on a Twin Fangs crit, not average damage. Not sure if the ring is a bonus to ability damage or a damage_multiplier, or if it's a multiplier to ability damage. (And I'm not confused about the damage formula, seeing as I was one of the original discoverers of it )
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Feb 22, 2017 20:34:48 GMT
Hi PapaCharlie9, I wasn't confused - was comparing damage on a Twin Fangs crit, not average damage. Not sure if the ring is a bonus to ability damage or a damage_multiplier, or if it's a multiplier to ability damage. (And I'm not confused about the damage formula, seeing as I was one of the original discoverers of it ) I did not know that, cheers! Okay, that makes sense, though I don't think OP was making the same assumption about 100% crit.
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roro4066
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Post by roro4066 on Feb 23, 2017 8:42:04 GMT
thanks for your feedback as well papacharlie, but as rynas has already said, we are not talking of average damage calculation but damage bonus when doing a critical hit by performing the twin fangs ability. maybe i wasn't clear enough and should have titled this topic: "critical damage calculation by using twin fangs with enhanced ring of twin fangs or 2 superb rings of critical damage bonus" but a bit long isn't it... Your formula is intersting as well though. But if i understood it correctly, in my case, i should remove the critical hit chance mulitplier because i'm talking about an ability which has 100% critical hit chance when flanking (that's what i do). feel free to add more info about that topic if you have any idea. So thanks again to both of you and i'll see you maybe again on my next topic "the imbued tusket" because i've been farming these little pinky asses for quite a long time in kulsdotten swamp. cheers
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Feb 23, 2017 18:33:47 GMT
thanks for your feedback as well papacharlie, but as rynas has already said, we are not talking of average damage calculation but damage bonus when doing a critical hit by performing the twin fangs ability. maybe i wasn't clear enough and should have titled this topic: "critical damage calculation by using twin fangs with enhanced ring of twin fangs or 2 superb rings of critical damage bonus" but a bit long isn't it... Your formula is intersting as well though. But if i understood it correctly, in my case, i should remove the critical hit chance mulitplier because i'm talking about an ability which has 100% critical hit chance when flanking (that's what i do). feel free to add more info about that topic if you have any idea. So thanks again to both of you and i'll see you maybe again on my next topic "the imbued tusket" because i've been farming these little pinky asses for quite a long time in kulsdotten swamp. cheers Okay, I guess I was mistaken all around! I somehow didn't get the 100% crit chance factor in the previous discussion. In that case, it does boil down to (2.0)*(2.21) or (2.3)*(1.81), assuming 30% is just added to the ability multiplier.
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