Mages and Templars discussion

We looked into reports of Knight-Commander Meredith’s harsh treatment of her charges years earlier. But we found so many shocking cases of magical corruption, it was decided her actions were justified

Which just goes to show that being a murderous asshat doesn't really help.

I mean, if Beatrix was still Divine, all Anders would have accomplished is getting every single Circle mage on Thedas killed. For nothing.

Well if we are going off the premise that Cory is still a thing (and thus Alexius was still a thing), then it would be very possible the Templar Order would be nearly wiped out as well. The game is pretty adamant that if it wasn't for the Inquisitor, the entire world would have pretty much gone to shiz. It wouldn't have been just the mages. But if Cory wasn't a factor? It would be hard to say what the mages would do. We have little evidence to suggest that the actual Tevinter was even interested in the southern mages. They could have very well just stayed in Redcliffe and turned the tide of the war with Ferelden's protection.

It's sort of interesting to think about it though. If the mage templar war never happened or the conclave actually worked, the mages would have most likely have gone back to a system very similar to what they had before. Justinia's successor would have been more likely to have gone the 'slow reform' route like she did and not be anything like Divine Leliana or even Cassandra. Unless of course Justinia planned on naming them one of her successors anyway.

It was only because of the Inquisition, the chaos made by Corypheaus, and resulting bloody world-shaping it did that allowed the mages to possibly gain results that could possibly far outweigh what the mages would have gotten if they tried for peace and compromise under Justinia. So in some ways they may have gotten better results by not compromising and allowing for radical change by taking advantage of the chaotic political climate. Or, in some cases, actually got worse then what Justinia would have provided.

Ironic as it is, it seems the mages got a higher probability better results from not compromising than they would have had if they tried to compromise with the Divine and the Templar Order (still lead by the Lord Seeker) at the conclave.

That's some pretty industrial-strength conspiracy theory there...

There might be tiny bit of truth to this, but from what we can tell, most of the magically related problems of Kirkwall is not entirely because of the Templars.

Kirkwall's Circle had an unusually high failed harrowing rate, and the city  itself had a high amount of maleficar cropping up. The only known investigative team to uncover the reason 'why' these things were occurring was killed off (Band of the Three), and their researched pointed more toward Ancient Tevinter blood rituals (which can attract demons) instead of corrupt officials. That's not to say the two may be unrelated, but it does imply that there was more going on in Kirkwall other than "Meredith is making things worse on purpose".

Personally I just think its a bad idea to have a Circle in an area with a known weakness in the Veil + Maleficar/Demon sightings. It's really starting to look like they are sitting on a giant ritual area that is still active in some capacity or where the effects of the ritual are still being felt by mage and common men alike.

Ok, let's discuss Corypheus and his trip into the fade, nobody knows what really happened, what if he and his cohorts met up with a fade creature that can divide itself, (like Flemeth) and put pieces of itself into others but Cory and his buddies don't remember this because they're semi-possessed, so now you have 7 mages with a creature that can divide itself(it is in fact formless) and enter others at will. This creature has been doing this for thousands of years and slowly taking control of the people of Thedas and strategically placing pieces of itself into positions of power. The Circle, the Templars, nobility, the Grey Wardens, and the Promisers, the only one's it can't touch are the Seekers because the Seekers are already 'possessed' by faith spirits and Avvar mages who have been 'possessed' and trained by friendly spirits. We know there is a behind the scenes feud between the Promisers and Seekers, and with Lord Seeker Lucious, it would seem that the Seeker ranks have been compromised as well as the Templars now.

Knowing animals, trees and now Templars can be possessed by demons means that no one is actually immuned except for Seekers and mages already possessed. The difference between Anders and the Avvar mages is the age he and Justice joined together and his emotional state of mind.

Ok, the ancient Thaig has roads that connect to it from all over, I have no doubt there are roads leading through Neverra, SunderMount, Starkhaven and Tevinter. DA2 time those roads are blocked, but who knows what condition they were in around the time Meredith arrived, let alone around the time of the Exalted March, for all we know those roads could've been used for centuries by ancient Tevinter mages and their decendants, but as time has gone by their access has been cut off...they knew of the idol but couldn't get to through the back way so they needed someone to arrange a way to it through Kirkwall.

No, I do not think the Templars were the only ones at fault with all the magic abuse, in fact I only think it was a select few mages,templars,nobles, commoners and chantry folk working together as a unit to slowly break down the system and create distractions while demons methodically took control.

Somewhere along the line Circle mages were taught that whole demon/fade thing, and it could be considered wrong, so I deduce that somewhere in history they were deliberately taught the wrong thing so that more demons than spirits will appear to them. I don't think mages are inherently evil, nor do I think Templars are...well there may be some who are dickheads no matter what, but on the whole both sides would be fairly reasonable, given the choice.

Yeah, especially considering in theory mages are perhaps best managed by the Chantry. As of right now they are the only international "neutral" organization that can be trusted to manage mage affairs without succumbing to personal gain even though they already do. (The Divine office/Chantry is becoming an increasingly political affair). But no one trusts the mages to form an organization themselves because they fear a second Tevinter. The Templars can't do it either because of how much animosity/distrust the mages have developed toward them due to their close ties to Chantry law and its ideology. But the general fear of tying mages to individual nations is that mages will primarily be 'used' and 'harnessed' as war assets or political bludgeons by the crown instead of being properly trained or taken care of.

Basically the Chantry has set itself up as the only legitimate way to manage mages "without ulterior motive" (even though the Circles bring in a lot of resources for the Chantry) because no other international and neutral organization has been recognized yet. The Inquisition was closest the world has ever gotten to debunking that status, and that organization has been removed due its unaligned military presence come Trespasser. There may also be the College of Enchanters, but I think we are all waiting to see how it turns out before we judge it completely.

Well to be more accurate its the teachings of the Chantry and thus the religious adherence to those teachings that is truly to blame.  The Circles may have been a fairly decent stop-gap method of dealing with the Mages directly post fall of the Tevinter Imperium in the South, but their paranoia and religious dogma created both an expectation of Demonic possession in the Mages and a refusal to allow further academic research into all things related to the Fade to alleviate those expectations.  The Templars themselves were actually initially created as a means to protect everyone (including Mages) from the hazards of Magic, and work in tandem with the Circle to that effect.  While many Templars still did their job to letter even till DA:I, the issue quickly becomes ideology can only go so far in suppressing the suspicions and paranoia of the Templars who are guarding a bunch of people who inherently are more prone to Demonic possessions because they believe they are more prone to demonic possession and attracting Demons to them in Fade.  The Templars actually do have a pretty dangerous job in the Modern Circle system, but the more they crack down to make in an effort to make it safer for themselves, the more pressure the put on the Mages and the more likely they are of doing something stupid and becoming and abomination.  Its the core that created this downward spiral of destruction for both factions.

The Chantry is responsible for doing a lot of good in the world of Thedas and I don't blame the Chantry members and workers themselves, but if not for the teachings of the Chantry and the resulting refusal to pursue academia about all things Fade, Spirits, and Demons the relationship between Mages and Templars could have been a far more symbiotic one and it is likely as a result of that improved relationship the Circle System would have dissipated or have taken on a form more like the College of Enchanters centuries ago.