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Post by doflamingodonquijote on Mar 23, 2017 4:00:17 GMT
That doesn't change the fact that those are all illegal spells and those who use it without any kind of concession are criminlas for the law. Against a wrong law, (almost) everything is allowed. The Chantry's Circle law is a wrong law. A law isn't wrong just because you said so. I told you why the blood magic is illegal and those are all good reasons for the well being of everyone,thus the law is in this case well founded.
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Post by Catilina on Mar 23, 2017 4:04:35 GMT
Against a wrong law, (almost) everything is allowed. The Chantry's Circle law is a wrong law. A law isn't wrong just because you said so. I told you why the blood magic is illegal and those are all good reasons this the law is well founded. So: you think, there are no wrong laws in the whole Thedas? Because every law has its good reason?
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Post by doflamingodonquijote on Mar 23, 2017 4:33:11 GMT
A law isn't wrong just because you said so. I told you why the blood magic is illegal and those are all good reasons this the law is well founded. So: you think, there are no wrong laws in the whole Thedas? Because every law has its good reason? So I think? What does that even mean? The Blood magic is illegal in almost all the countries in Thedas, this isn't something controversial nor it's me thinking about anything and I've even provided the reasons that brought all the countries to restrict it's use. Also by changing arguments from the validity of the laws on blood magic to all the laws in general you are just attempting to change the subject who to be fair has already been changed enough already. The original premise was,if killing Loghain is right because of the law so it is to kill blood mages or those who use blood magic for other purposes that is not killing darkspawns.
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Post by Catilina on Mar 23, 2017 4:44:15 GMT
So: you think, there are no wrong laws in the whole Thedas? Because every law has its good reason? So I think? What does that even mean? The Blood magic is illegal in almost all the countries in Thedas, this isn't something controversial nor it's me thinking about anything and I've even provided the reasons that brought all the countries to restrict it's use. Also by changing arguments from the validity of the laws on blood magic to all the laws in generals you are just attempting to change the subject who to be fair has already been changed enough already. The original premise is,if killing Loghain is right under the law so it is to kill blood mages or those who use blood magic for other purposes that is not killing darkspawns. I said that we can use illegal means against the bad law if they are effective. I don't said anything, that this good or bad law, that the blood magic is forbidden. (But personally I think, the controlled teaching of nature of Blood Magic is important.) And: I never said, that the reason, why GOOD thing if the Warden/Alistair execute Loghain, is that because this is the law. I said, that even the law is not against this practice. SO: the Warden, who sentenced him to death, didn't do any wrong.And I said: that the Warden, who let Loghain redeem himself didn't do any wrong.
Both decisions is right.
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Post by doflamingodonquijote on Mar 23, 2017 5:13:31 GMT
So I think? What does that even mean? The Blood magic is illegal in almost all the countries in Thedas, this isn't something controversial nor it's me thinking about anything and I've even provided the reasons that brought all the countries to restrict it's use. Also by changing arguments from the validity of the laws on blood magic to all the laws in generals you are just attempting to change the subject who to be fair has already been changed enough already. The original premise is,if killing Loghain is right under the law so it is to kill blood mages or those who use blood magic for other purposes that is not killing darkspawns. I said that we can use illegal means against the bad law if they are effective. I don't said anything, that this good or bad law, that the blood magic is forbidden. (But personally I think, the controlled teaching of nature of Blood Magic is important.) And: I never said, that the reason, why GOOD thing if the Warden/Alistair execute Loghain, is that because this is the law. I said, that even the law is not against this practice. SO: the Warden, who sentenced him to death, didn't do any wrong.And I said: that the Warden, who let Loghain redeem himself didn't do any wrong.
Both decisions is right. And I've said that the laws against blood magic aren't bad laws and that if a warden kills Loghain on the ground of being supported by the law and thinks to be in the right only to do the DR later(which is an illegal act)then they're just using the law when it suites them thus being self-serving hypocrites.Understand now the point?
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Post by Catilina on Mar 23, 2017 5:25:12 GMT
I said that we can use illegal means against the bad law if they are effective. I don't said anything, that this good or bad law, that the blood magic is forbidden. (But personally I think, the controlled teaching of nature of Blood Magic is important.)
And: I never said, that the reason, why GOOD thing if the Warden/Alistair execute Loghain, is that because this is the law. I said, that even the law is not against this practice. SO: the Warden, who sentenced him to death, didn't do any wrong. And I said: that the Warden, who let Loghain redeem himself didn't do any wrong.
Both decisions is right. And I've said that the laws against blood magic aren't bad laws and that if a warden kills Loghain on the ground of being supported by the law and thinks to be in the right only to do the DR later(which is an illegal act)then they're just using the law when it suites them thus being self-serving hypocrites.Understand now the point? No. Because of the original question only was, that the Warden, who executed Loghain was wrong because the capital punishment is wrong. This post was my starting point:
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Post by ilsen on Mar 31, 2017 0:22:16 GMT
For some reason I expected to get a notification on replies. Imagine my surprise when I checked this thread and found two pages. Let me respond to some of the repeated comments:
Perfect for whom? The majority of the fine people of Ferelden. I put myself in power not to be a tyrant, but because I'm the best person for the job. If someone better comes along, then I will abdicate. Until then, I will rule because that's best, like Plato's philosopher king. Marry the King/Queen? I thought I already addressed this? Anora is a snake, and you're going to end up with poison in your goblet. Or at the very least a righteous bout of gonorrhea. Marrying Alistair is fine, but that's only open to females, and even then you're going to have to share him with Morrigan. Not perfect, my friend.
Capital punishment? Sometimes necessary. Maybe not in 2017, but this is the Dragon Age and we are battling monsters and blood mages at every turn. Sorry, friendo, you're going to have to get your hands dirty. This is a reality where the Blight is knocking at your door and the very existence of the various PC species is at stake. You can't afford to be a social justice warrior when the the whole world is burning down around you.
This ending is perfect because it sets Ferelden up as well as possible to go forward while still helping out some damsels along the way.
And, yes, Mark7, you are probably a sociopath.
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Post by Mark7 on Mar 31, 2017 0:27:43 GMT
And, yes, Mark7, you are probably a sociopath. Bahhaahhahh of course loser if you say so then it must be false.
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Post by secretrare on Mar 31, 2017 0:33:46 GMT
Capital punishment? Sometimes necessary. Maybe not in 2017, but this is the Dragon Age and we are battling monsters and blood mages at every turn. Sorry, friendo, you're going to have to get your hands dirty. This is a reality where the Blight is knocking at your door and the very existence of the various PC species is at stake. You can't afford to be a social justice warrior when the the whole world is burning down around you. This ending is perfect because it sets Ferelden up as well as possible to go forward while still helping out some damsels along the way. And, yes, Mark7, you are probably a sociopath. Capital punishment is never neccessary ,to those who did not executed anyone in the game nothing happened a-side from them being able to use more GW vs the AD.
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Post by Prince on Apr 2, 2017 22:05:03 GMT
Capital punishment,the way I see it,in this setting is justified only when dealing with very dangerous beings,such as the Archdemons,the beings like Corypheus,Solas and the Evanuris.Loghain is just an human being with no magical powers,after his defeat there is nothing he can do.
I put Morrigan on the list as well since she has the knowledge to save the old gods on top of being bounded with the Evanuris,so I consider her worthy of such punishment and i bet 70% of Thedas(the common folk,the templars,the seekers,the GW)would agree with me.
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Post by Catilina on Apr 2, 2017 22:27:09 GMT
Capital punishment,the way I see it,in this setting is justified only when dealing with very dangerous beings,such as the Archdemons,the beings like Corypheus,Solas and the Evanuris.Loghain is just an human being with no magical powers,after his defeat there is nothing he can do. I put Morrigan on the list as well since she has the knowledge to save the old gods on top of being bounded with the Evanuris,so I consider her worthy of such punishment and i bet 70% of Thedas(the common folk,the templars,the seekers,the GW)would agree with me. The common and Templars agree on every fun mage killing/torturing. They aren't a moral peak... in fact, the Templars are dark knights; the Order lost their morality. The Seekers corrupted too, perhaps Cassandra can do something against this, but she need to start from zero. Grey Wardens care about only the Archdemon, but I think, not very choosy, if we speak about Loghain. Grey Wardens not some kind pure innocent heroes. I think nobody in Thedas has a problem with a good little death punishment... There should be no illusions! Thedas's corrupt. Just a reminder: the Mages are people. Just as Loghain.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2017 22:38:49 GMT
Perfect ending imo is what you feel happy with. The game was a bit too rigid to accommodate what I actually wanted, but I lived with what I got. For everything else there is Dragon Age Keep.
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Post by Morrigan on Apr 3, 2017 11:18:10 GMT
OP, Morrigan would like to know if she is bae or if she's a swamp.
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Post by Prince on Apr 3, 2017 22:32:15 GMT
Just a reminder: the Mages are people. Just as Loghain. Mages are not regular people,the more magic they have the more dangerous they are,I decide for myself how I want to consider them,not you for me.
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Post by Catilina on Apr 3, 2017 22:58:09 GMT
Mages are not regular people,the more magic they have the more dangerous they are,I decide for myself how I want to consider them,not you for me. Loghain was a regent, he was more dangerous, than a mage. And Loghain had high responsibility. Loghain played with Jowan, with Uldred, exploiting their desire for freedom. The people likes to see, that a politician, who abused his power lose his head. He sold his people into slavery.
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Post by Iddy on Apr 6, 2017 17:11:14 GMT
For some reason I expected to get a notification on replies. Imagine my surprise when I checked this thread and found two pages. Let me respond to some of the repeated comments: Perfect for whom? The majority of the fine people of Ferelden. I put myself in power not to be a tyrant, but because I'm the best person for the job. If someone better comes along, then I will abdicate. Until then, I will rule because that's best, like Plato's philosopher king. Marry the King/Queen? I thought I already addressed this? Anora is a snake, and you're going to end up with poison in your goblet. Or at the very least a righteous bout of gonorrhea. Marrying Alistair is fine, but that's only open to females, and even then you're going to have to share him with Morrigan. Not perfect, my friend. Capital punishment? Sometimes necessary. Maybe not in 2017, but this is the Dragon Age and we are battling monsters and blood mages at every turn. Sorry, friendo, you're going to have to get your hands dirty. This is a reality where the Blight is knocking at your door and the very existence of the various PC species is at stake. You can't afford to be a social justice warrior when the the whole world is burning down around you. This ending is perfect because it sets Ferelden up as well as possible to go forward while still helping out some damsels along the way. And, yes, Mark7, you are probably a sociopath. Ah, arrogance. Lovely.
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Post by oyabun on Apr 6, 2017 18:19:26 GMT
Mages are not regular people,the more magic they have the more dangerous they are,I decide for myself how I want to consider them,not you for me. Loghain was a regent, he was more dangerous, than a mage. And Loghain had high responsibility. Loghain played with Jowan, with Uldred, exploiting their desire for freedom. The people likes to see, that a politician, who abused his power lose his head. He sold his people into slavery. Again with this story? The point is not what Loghain did but what he is potentially capable to do,and since he is just an human being after his defeat there is nothing he can do,all his power come from the support of others not from magic. People like Solas,Flemeth and the 8 Evanuris can destroy the entire world if they want,and they can do that any day they want,same is for the mages of Tevinter like the most educated magisters.Alexius learned how to manipulate time itself,only God know what he could have done with more researches,maybe blow up the entire timeline of the Universe? It's not a matter of responsability(what does that even mean?)but a matter of power,their power needs to be contained,even a 7-8 years old like Connor was able to defeat the whole Bannorn of Redclieffe on his own,and he was just 7-8 years old. The way I see it there is no solution for the mages,even if they are taught how to control their magic,they can use such knowledge to destroy everything,it takes one single very god mage to destroy the world,just one.
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Post by Catilina on Apr 6, 2017 18:30:15 GMT
Loghain was a regent, he was more dangerous, than a mage. And Loghain had high responsibility. Loghain played with Jowan, with Uldred, exploiting their desire for freedom. The people likes to see, that a politician, who abused his power lose his head. He sold his people into slavery. Again with this story? The point is not what Loghain did but what he is potentially capable to do,and since he is just an human being after his defeat there is nothing he can do,all his power come from the support of others not from magic. People like Solas,Flemeth and the 8 Evanuris can destroy the entire world if they want,and they can do that any day they want,same is for the mages of Tevinter like the most educated magisters.Alexius learned how to manipulate time itself,only God know what he could have done with more researches,maybe blow up the entire timeline of the Universe? It's not a matter of responsability(what does that even mean?)but a matter of power,their power needs to be contained,even a 7-8 years old like Connor was able to defeat the whole Bannorn of Redclieffe on his own,and he was just 7-8 years old. And: the politicians can uses mages for their own interest. Really few mages capable of gathering and keeping such a power, than Solas and the Evanuris. And don't forget, when the Evanuris raised, the Veil didn't exist yet. Connor wasn't able to defeat the Bannorn, the demon was. Just remember Meredith and Lord Seeker Lucius... they ween't mages.
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Post by Almila_Lavellan on Apr 6, 2017 18:46:10 GMT
How come Bhelen is better than Harrowmont? They are both rubbish rulers anyway. Just because he rules better by crushing his own people, doesn't mean he is better than Harrowmont.
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Post by oyabun on Apr 6, 2017 21:42:48 GMT
And: the politicians can uses mages for their own interest. Really few mages capable of gathering and keeping such a power, than Solas and the Evanuris. And don't forget, when the Evanuris raised, the Veil didn't exist yet. Connor wasn't able to defeat the Bannorn, the demon was. Just remember Meredith and Lord Seeker Lucius... they ween't mages. Your post is nothing but the same carbon copy of the previous one and I hope you are aware of that. Politicians who are not mages still remain mundanes who cannot do magic,they need others so you have proved absolutly nothing with your point. There are many Mages who can destroy the entire world in Thedas (The 7 Magisters,The 8 Evanuris,The 3-4 Old Gods,Some of the current magisters and rare talented mages) It takes one of these,one alone to cause worldwide damages. Connor was the host of the demon and there are millions of demons in the fade who can ghater the power they need only with a mage,so even mages as weak as Connor are a threat. Meredith is a mundane if it wasn't for the support she had(all the templars of Kirkwall)she would have been nothing and even then she caused a lot less damages than people like Solas,Anders,Corypheus,The Architect,Urthemiel,ecc...(the list is very long)
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Post by Catilina on Apr 6, 2017 22:25:37 GMT
And: the politicians can uses mages for their own interest. Really few mages capable of gathering and keeping such a power, than Solas and the Evanuris. And don't forget, when the Evanuris raised, the Veil didn't exist yet. Connor wasn't able to defeat the Bannorn, the demon was. Just remember Meredith and Lord Seeker Lucius... they ween't mages. Your post is nothing but the same carbon copy of the previous one and I hope you are aware of that. Politicians who are not mages still remain mundanes who cannot do magic,they need others so you have proved absolutly nothing with your point. There are many Mages who can destroy the entire world in Thedas (The 7 Magisters,The 8 Evanuris,The 3-4 Old Gods,Some of the current magisters and rare talented mages) It takes one of these,one alone to cause worldwide damages. Connor was the host of the demon and there are millions of demons in the fade who can ghater the power they need only with a mage,so even mages as weak as Connor are a threat. Meredith is a mundane if it wasn't for the support she had(all the templars of Kirkwall)she would have been nothing and even then she caused a lot less damages than people like Solas,Anders,Corypheus,The Architect,Urthemiel,ecc...(the list is very long) Are you kidding me, are you not? Anders and Solas? And the Evanuris? Urthemriel? What kind of damage caused Anders, what a "mundane" couldn't able to cause? He blew up the Chantry, not "removed" the Chantry with some spell. He used a mundane weapon. Because the Chantry was corrupt and wrong with the Circles. The Chantry explosion caused the Chantry, Elthina, personally. She would be able to stop Meredith. She was failed, so she died. Sadly. After this Anders/Justice gave their life in Hawke's hands, for sake of justice. Really dreadful Mage! But the death sentence is bad, yes? Of course, especially, if the accused person is right. So, the verdict is: acquittal. Explain it to me: if Anders/Justice were so dangerous, why not abolished the whole Kirkwall? He would be able to it, right? Every Mage able to do such a thing, right? Despite this "fact", he just sat on his ass and waited for the verdict... and the Mages in the Circles always just wait for their fate... Tell me, please: every Mage so idiot then? Or just not so dangerous, as you say...
Lord Seeker Lucius? Dealt with a demon, just as a mage. As I said: the Evanuris, Urthemriel etc. raised before the Veil. You know, that if the Mages would be so uncontrollable and dangerous, as you said, the whole Thedas already would be a nice, tearful remembrance of the Maker... Perhaps bad writing, sorry. (By the way: I suppose, Urthemriel wasn't a "mage"... he was something different.) I didn't say, that the mages never deserves death punishment (Erimond got it – or tranquility), but just as Loghain, just as a politician, no more. And, if they are really dangerous, you're right. Again: as I see in Loghain case there are NO bad choice: if the Warden executed him, s/he did it well. If the Warden gave him a last chance to redeem himself, s/he did well. I'm a big fan of redemption and mercy and second chance.
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Post by oyabun on Apr 7, 2017 10:31:47 GMT
The first part of your post is the exposition of your own personal perspective of the actions committed by Anders,that doesn't really matter for me as your own subjective agreement with his motivations doesn't affect me.Anders is able to build dangerous magical weapons which have the potential to generate a great destructive force and on top of that is possessed by a former spirit that is now totally corrupted,he doesn't deserve the death punishment for what he has done or out of a desire of Justice(that isn't how justice work for any magistrate,that is the childish concept of Justice ala Alistair)he deserve to be killed or to be contained for the threat he represent in virtue of being a possessed mage with the knowldge to build magical bombs. Demons can't gather magical powers from mundanes that's way Lucius is less of a threat than Anders,therefore they can't become abominations and even then Lucious still require to be contained and any prison can do that. All the special magical beings like Urthemiel( former Archdemon that can trigger a blight at any time)or Solas or Elgar'nan,ecc.. are world threats that needs to be either removed with total death or either be confined in some special prison or being depowered of their power regardless of if they did something wrong or not,there simply cannot be any coexistence with beings that can trigger world destruciton events at any moment on their own. AND YES,the only reason as for why Thedas exist is because all these super pwerful beings are imprisoned and are unable to do anything,the Evanuris on the fade,the Old gods underground. They were already akin to destory the whole planet on their times they can do it again as soon as they are released and the only reason as for why their kingdom lasted for a while was because the Evanuris became that powerful in thousands of years of being able to accumulate magical powers they weren't born that powerful.
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Post by Almila_Lavellan on Apr 7, 2017 10:56:11 GMT
^ Just want to point out that mundane people (people without magic) can turn into abominations. DA 2 clearly showed that in Act 1 with templar recruit Wilmod.
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Post by Catilina on Apr 7, 2017 11:42:32 GMT
The first part of your post is the exposition of your own personal perspective of the actions committed by Anders,that doesn't really matter for me as your own subjective agreement with his motivations doesn't affect me.Anders is able to build dangerous magical weapons which have the potential to generate a great destructive force and on top of that is possessed by a former spirit that is now totally corrupted,he doesn't deserve the death punishment for what he has done or out of a desire of Justice(that isn't how justice work for any magistrate,that is the childish concept of Justice ala Alistair)he deserve to be killed or to be contained for the threat he represent in virtue of being a possessed mage with the knowldge to build magical bombs. Demons can't gather magical powers from mundanes that's way Lucius is less of a threat than Anders,therefore they can't become abominations and even then Lucious still require to be contained and any prison can do that. All the special magical beings like Urthemiel( former Archdemon that can trigger a blight at any time)or Solas or Elgar'nan,ecc.. are world threats that needs to be either removed with total death or either be confined in some special prison or being depowered of their power regardless of if they did something wrong or not,there simply cannot be any coexistence with beings that can trigger world destruciton events at any moment on their own. AND YES,the only reason as for why Thedas exist is because all these super pwerful beings are imprisoned and are unable to do anything,the Evanuris on the fade,the Old gods underground. They were already akin to destory the whole planet on their times they can do it again as soon as they are released and the only reason as for why their kingdom lasted for a while was because the Evanuris became that powerful in thousands of years of being able to accumulate magical powers they weren't born that powerful. Not really understand, what you want to say. This is a new "Thedas needs prison-Circles, because the Mages are dangerous" debate? Because then I say what I usually say: this is unnecessary torture of innocents, give a false sense of security, in addition to being inhumane, even dangerous as well. Or you just wants to kill the mage children, because of every Mage child is a potentially danger? True, this is a solution. A bit cruel according to my taste (I'm just so squeamish), but it can work. Perhaps not a perfect solution, but at least cheaper than to maintain the Circles. Or turn back to the starting point: Loghain's execution and the capital punishment. I will copy my opinion, because it has not changed. So: "As I see in Loghain case there are NO bad choice: if the Warden executed him, s/he did it well. If the Warden gave him a last chance to redeem himself, s/he did well. I'm a big fan of redemption and mercy and second chance. "
And the case of the Mage criminals? The same opinion, as you see in related Loghain. The execution as good a choice as the redemption/mercy. You can't prevent a new raise of demigods with torture/mortification of innocents.
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Prince
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Post by Prince on Apr 7, 2017 12:45:39 GMT
^ Just want to point out that mundane people (people without magic) can turn into abominations. DA 2 clearly showed that in Act 1 with templar recruit Wilmod. An abomination is by definition a mage merged with a spirit(Magical powers of the mage+Magical powers of the spirit)who may result into those ugly looking things of the Circle tower of DAO. A mundane can be possessed by a spirit,however that doesn't make them abominations,they are often more weak than the original spirit that possess them.
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