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Post by roseofquartz on Mar 21, 2017 6:38:48 GMT
Does... anyone get the feeling there are ... literally parts missing to this game? It feels very... jumpy. Like someone just taped a bunch of E3 demos together and called it good.
I started an earlier thread about this, but the whole Angara thing is just like, thrown into the game very haphazardly. All the Angara suddenly speak English, the Angara already talk to Ryder about the Kett as if Ryder already knows about them, the Angara know Ryder is from another galaxy immediately, like... what?
Like, am I missing something? Did the Nexus already make first contact with the Angara?
On a side note, I really love the way Jaal says "Milky Way", very cute.
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ATR16
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Post by ATR16 on Mar 21, 2017 8:35:24 GMT
Yeah I was talking with a friend earlier about how it feels like the game is three or four plots just kinda smashed together. Some stuff is good but other bits feel way too generic. Other parts here and there like "Well... we wrote it. Sure just toss it in... there!"
Then that led to chatting about the stuff about writers leaving mysteriously through the game and theorizing on bits of story we've come across and what feels artificially bigger versus what may have been the first intent, some of our theories based on heresay, trailers, etc.
The story just doesn't feel like it flows. Like a lot of the game, it feels unpolished. Like it just needed to have another once over and then a quick final touch up.
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roseofquartz
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Post by roseofquartz on Mar 21, 2017 8:43:18 GMT
Yeah I was talking with a friend earlier about how it feels like the game is three or four plots just kinda smashed together. Some stuff is good but other bits feel way too generic. Other parts here and there like "Well... we wrote it. Sure just toss it in... there!" Then that led to chatting about the stuff about writers leaving mysteriously through the game and theorizing on bits of story we've come across and what feels artificially bigger versus what may have been the first intent, some of our theories based on heresay, trailers, etc. The story just doesn't feel like it flows. Like a lot of the game, it feels unpolished. Like it just needed to have another once over and then a quick final touch up. To say that the story doesn't feel like it flows is a huge understatement. It's clunky as hell, and when it's not, there seems to be huge gaps in the story telling. The Angara treat you with suspicion but that's it, "oh you're an alien? neat, anyway, can you do this for me?" Like, yeah, okay, they're familiar with aliens, they know aliens are out there, but the only other species they've ever met is the Kett, who enslaved their race. Like, idk, aside from that initial hositility when you land on Aya, that's it
You could've lampshade this easier? Like a physiology thing like Protheans, or say that the Intiative already met the Angara but had no luck getting beyond first contact because the Angara are so (understandably) suspicious?
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Mar 22, 2017 2:20:53 GMT
Same as Inquisition. The priorities are on everything but the plot and it ends up being really barebones, but I think for the amount of scenes they have, with good writing it could've easily worked. Too bad they hired Schlerf.
But yes, this is practically not a plot. Same issue as Inquisition. It does not establish its setpieces with enough context before just throwing you into a new chapter. The Archon is not properly introduced and apparently he can speak english whereas we hadn't previously understood any of his kind and Ryder isn't even confused about this. As far as I'm concerned this is a gaping plot hole
Then it jumps again when we land to meet the Angara because now the plot just assumes our goal is to help them defeat the Kett. The kett being the villains is never properly established in terms of theme. They're just bad guys that happen to be wherever there's Remnant Tech. The Remnant tech is interfering with our Golden Worlds, but for no good reason, as soon as the Archon is introduced to Ryder in person, the plot starts assuming without rhyme or reason that the goal of the story is now to defeat the Kett and the Archon even though Ryder's job is to find worlds to settle. The scenes in particular are contrived. You just meet the Archon and then it goes all over the place tonally as we escape from his Derp ships.
Sometimes it does not feel like a plot because there's no cause and effect. It's like Batman Vs Superman, where there is no throughline and the premise is never properly established. "We're going to Andromeda" is not a premise, that's just a starting point. "We're going to Andromeda to settle golden worlds" is too basic a premise because it has no clear conlfict, so what is it? The game never explains before we bump into the Kett and Angara and it just moves along assuming that this is our new premise. Stitched together it becomes "We're going to Andromeda to settle golden worlds which aren't as golden as we thought, so we'll help the alien race to defeat the evil Kett and...", and then what? A plot cannot progress like this. It's a big fundamental flaw. You have to establish the premise, motivation and a clear-cut premise (aka a goal or destination we're striving for) by the end of act 1, which would be once we've settled Eos and met the Archon. It just doesn't work.
The plot of Andromeda is broken as much as the ending to ME3. There's lots of other good stuff but the plot is simply broken before it even begins.
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Post by warbaby2 on Mar 22, 2017 4:12:03 GMT
It's not only the writing, though, it's also the composition... whoever cobbled together the different plots and sub plots should be beat over the head with flowchart made of solid gold. I just reached the end of act one, and already I had three instances of characters mentioning stuff that hasn't even happened yet. I mean, PeeBee giving me opinions about Drak even though she never met him and he isn't even part of the crew yet? Or Gil sending me an e-mail mentioning Jaal although I don't even know the Angara exist? Come on BW, I know it's a big game, but jeez!
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roseofquartz
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Post by roseofquartz on Mar 22, 2017 5:58:17 GMT
It's not only the writing, though, it's also the composition... whoever cobbled together the different plots and sub plots should be beat over the head with flowchart made of solid gold. I just reached the end of act one, and already I had three instances of characters mentioning stuff that hasn't even happened yet. I mean, PeeBee giving me opinions about Drak even though she never met him and he isn't even part of the crew yet? Or Gil sending me an e-mail mentioning Jaal although I don't even know the Angara exist? Come on BW, I know it's a big game, but jeez! Like I said, this feels more like someone pasted together some E3 demos and called it good. There's a lot of exposition missing.
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Post by zeowik on Mar 22, 2017 5:59:55 GMT
They outright lampshade the language thing very early in the game. Perhaps it's easy to miss, but they do talk about it very briefly. I figured it's just implied that once the language is analyzed Star Trek style magical translators take care of the rest.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2017 7:57:47 GMT
It feels like the game's plot was written by 3 different people, oh wait it was! The writing is all over the place, ranging from pretty decent to god awful. I swear the intro, and the first time you are on the Nexus feels like something that Bioware never wrote. After that i feel the writing does get better and better, but a lot of things are hand waved because of Rule of Cool, which is unfortunate. Also the tone is off so often. There are so many attempts to be humorous when it doesn't fit, its not earned. Its the Marvel effect. If they do a sequel, well fix it!
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Mar 22, 2017 13:15:43 GMT
Yeah, the game had Schlerf who wrote the crit-path back in 2014 and finished his last iterations sometime before summer 2016 when he left, then Mac can be quoted for saying "I'm the lead writer" in the first interviews since then, and then it became Cathleen Rosaert (writer for Kaidan's normandy/citadel dialogues in ME3) and along the way more movies came out (the whole studio saw Interstellar together) and then Guardians of the Galaxy became popular, John "Marvel fanboy" Dombrow joined in 2015, and yadayada. I think they couldn't keep track of their influences and Mac did not help keeping anything consistent - they also had cut story beats as always I guess, and voila. An inconsistent scrambled-together plot with no throughline. They outright lampshade the language thing very early in the game. Perhaps it's easy to miss, but they do talk about it very briefly. I figured it's just implied that once the language is analyzed Star Trek style magical translators take care of the rest. They did not explain it at first. It was technically not even part of the fiction. However, in Andromeda they open with Kett that clearly speak in foreign tongue and Angara do too, until they just switch around with no explanation. It's not smooth at all.
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Mar 22, 2017 13:18:55 GMT
It's not only the writing, though, it's also the composition... whoever cobbled together the different plots and sub plots should be beat over the head with flowchart made of solid gold. I just reached the end of act one, and already I had three instances of characters mentioning stuff that hasn't even happened yet. I mean, PeeBee giving me opinions about Drak even though she never met him and he isn't even part of the crew yet? Or Gil sending me an e-mail mentioning Jaal although I don't even know the Angara exist? Come on BW, I know it's a big game, but jeez! "Writing" when I say it is an umbrella term for - Plot - Pacing & Structure - Characterization - Dialogue - Prose & Word economy - Theme & Message I usually specifiy if I mean specifically dialogue or plot is an issue but it can be hard for most people to know right away what it is about the writing that doesn't work when they notice it isn't well done.
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roseofquartz
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Post by roseofquartz on Mar 22, 2017 14:15:48 GMT
It's not only the writing, though, it's also the composition... whoever cobbled together the different plots and sub plots should be beat over the head with flowchart made of solid gold. I just reached the end of act one, and already I had three instances of characters mentioning stuff that hasn't even happened yet. I mean, PeeBee giving me opinions about Drak even though she never met him and he isn't even part of the crew yet? Or Gil sending me an e-mail mentioning Jaal although I don't even know the Angara exist? Come on BW, I know it's a big game, but jeez! "Writing" when I say it is an umbrella term for - Plot - Pacing & Structure - Characterization - Dialogue - Prose & Word economy - Theme & Message I usually specifiy if I mean specifically dialogue or plot is an issue but it can be hard for most people to know right away what it is about the writing that doesn't work when they notice it isn't well done. In this case I would say the problems would be around plot, pacing/structure and (maybe) theme. The pacing is all over the place, and it's interfering with my ability to 'get' the plot or theme. It's not that the whole "they're using our own people against us" or "incredibly intelligent machines" thing has been done before. Ultimately, no idea is original, and tbh, I like the idea of this better then the Reapers, it's that I feel it was poorly executed? They can't seem to focus on what they want to say.
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Mar 22, 2017 14:25:28 GMT
"Writing" when I say it is an umbrella term for - Plot - Pacing & Structure - Characterization - Dialogue - Prose & Word economy - Theme & Message I usually specifiy if I mean specifically dialogue or plot is an issue but it can be hard for most people to know right away what it is about the writing that doesn't work when they notice it isn't well done. In this case I would say the problems would be around plot, pacing/structure and (maybe) theme. The pacing is all over the place, and it's interfering with my ability to 'get' the plot or theme. It's not that the whole "they're using our own people against us" or "incredibly intelligent machines" thing has been done before. Ultimately, no idea is original, and tbh, I like the idea of this better then the Reapers, it's that I feel it was poorly executed? They can't seem to focus on what they want to say. It's a genre-problem, and as you say it comes from the inconsistency of plot, structure and pacing and on top of that the tone isn't compatible across the entirety of the journey. Imagine if Andromeda was a book. It would be impossible to read this thing to the final page because you can't follow it. It keeps changing its focus every 10 pages and you cannot predict anything. People like cause and effect and clarity. Not to mistake clarity with "spoonfeeding exposition" but we need a clear-cut premise and a relatable motivation revealed somehow for the protagonist and a sense of what drives him and why we're going there. Andromeda just does whatever the hell it wants at every turn. It's a classic example of "then this happened, and this happened". It's not how you tell a story.
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Post by warbaby2 on Mar 22, 2017 15:38:45 GMT
In this case I would say the problems would be around plot, pacing/structure and (maybe) theme. The pacing is all over the place, and it's interfering with my ability to 'get' the plot or theme. It's not that the whole "they're using our own people against us" or "incredibly intelligent machines" thing has been done before. Ultimately, no idea is original, and tbh, I like the idea of this better then the Reapers, it's that I feel it was poorly executed? They can't seem to focus on what they want to say. It's a genre-problem, and as you say it comes from the inconsistency of plot, structure and pacing and on top of that the tone isn't compatible across the entirety of the journey. Imagine if Andromeda was a book. It would be impossible to read this thing to the final page because you can't follow it. It keeps changing its focus every 10 pages and you cannot predict anything. People like cause and effect and clarity. Not to mistake clarity with "spoonfeeding exposition" but we need a clear-cut premise and a relatable motivation revealed somehow for the protagonist and a sense of what drives him and why we're going there. Andromeda just does whatever the hell it wants at every turn. It's a classic example of "then this happened, and this happened". It's not how you tell a story. In essence, it's what happens when inapt fanfic writers try to continue/build upon the original... and it shows... oh god, how it shows. The only stuff that really works/hold the whole thing together is what the writers copy pasted from the trilogy. ...but at least they got their obligatory trans NPC in.
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Mar 22, 2017 16:29:00 GMT
Dunno about the last line, I mean, whatever, it's nothing preachy and it's just one side-character. Proportional to the size of that audience compared to the total players active (but of course the cons BioWare attends shows a different demographic ratio).
It's just... you can play this game if you like the atmosphere and inspiration from the areas you can walk around in or some of the squadmates but it really feels like if you cut out the plot and some of the better side-quests from ME1. Like, cut out Ilos and the Ash/Kaidan part of virmire and the Noveria and Feros. That's what this game is like but just with more side-quests and all of the Citadel stuff.
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Post by zeowik on Mar 22, 2017 22:47:23 GMT
Yeah, the game had Schlerf who wrote the crit-path back in 2014 and finished his last iterations sometime before summer 2016 when he left, then Mac can be quoted for saying "I'm the lead writer" in the first interviews since then, and then it became Cathleen Rosaert (writer for Kaidan's normandy/citadel dialogues in ME3) and along the way more movies came out (the whole studio saw Interstellar together) and then Guardians of the Galaxy became popular, John "Marvel fanboy" Dombrow joined in 2015, and yadayada. I think they couldn't keep track of their influences and Mac did not help keeping anything consistent - they also had cut story beats as always I guess, and voila. An inconsistent scrambled-together plot with no throughline. They outright lampshade the language thing very early in the game. Perhaps it's easy to miss, but they do talk about it very briefly. I figured it's just implied that once the language is analyzed Star Trek style magical translators take care of the rest. They did not explain it at first. It was technically not even part of the fiction. However, in Andromeda they open with Kett that clearly speak in foreign tongue and Angara do too, until they just switch around with no explanation. It's not smooth at all. Near the end of the intro mission I could swear they talk about analyzing it. Also the Nexus would have had that information too.
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Mar 23, 2017 0:50:43 GMT
I swear they do too... then they ignore it 10 hours later.
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