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Post by Arijon van Goyen on Sept 23, 2016 16:15:12 GMT
I want to say how much war is bad for economy and failure of empires. By too much expense on the battlefield, high debts, high taxation and crippling the economy in general. Even if they win the war.
- Roman Empire in 2nd and 3rd century AD (War with German barbarians and Persians... but they were ill-fated not just economically, but in other aspects too)
- French and Indian War/Seven Years' War, 1754–63 ... for both French and British Empires (One led to revolution, the other to America independence)
- Athens and Sparta in the period after Persian wars till the Macedonian rule (mostly in Peloponnesian Wars, destroyed their economies by war and become easy prey for later Greek and Roman empires)
- Sasanian Empire and Byzantine Empire in 7th century AD (after the ceasefire with Byzantine Empire, Sasanian emperor was imprisoned, their economy was broken and there was chaos in the empire until Muslims defeated them with not much hardship... The Byzantines although won the war, were weakened too and couldn't hold against Muslims)
- German Empire in WW1 and WW2 (after few years of war in both fronts, their economy couldn't handle it anymore. In the first case it hastened the surrendering of Germany, and in the second case it weakens the country during the last few years of war to the level of destroyed currency... and certainly their industry turned to ashes)
- British Empire in WW1 and WW2 (lead to losing most of its colonies and its supreme power status)
- USA Empire after Afghanistan and Iraq wars (their financial collapse may soon happen because instead of lowering the expending they increased it in Obama age)
Should be enough...
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Post by Arijon van Goyen on Sept 23, 2016 18:28:40 GMT
...I have no need for a paper to tell me the Republican Guard can fight. They were the most organized and combat ready units we fought against in Baghdad. Tough bastards too. Wore body armor usually, had better guns and could use them. Didn't read these comments before. Great points, you two.
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Post by Primordial Walker on Sept 23, 2016 20:45:47 GMT
Alexander the Great cried when he found out that there are infinite words in the universe. Approached by one of his friends they asked what was the matter, and Alexander replied, "There are so many worlds and I have not yet conquered one!"
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Post by Beerfish on Sept 23, 2016 21:13:02 GMT
One of the biggest errors the states made re Iraq was disbanding the army including rep guard once the war was 'won' just a huge error.
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Post by B. Hieronymus Da on Sept 23, 2016 22:46:46 GMT
I want to say how much war is bad for economy and failure of empires. By too much expense on the battlefield, high debts, high taxation and crippling the economy in general. Even if they win the war. - Roman Empire in 2nd and 3rd century AD (War with German barbarians and Persians... but they were ill-fated not just economically, but in other aspects too) - French and Indian War/Seven Years' War, 1754–63 ... for both French and British Empires (One led to revolution, the other to America independence) - Athens and Sparta in the period after Persian wars till the Macedonian rule (mostly in Peloponnesian Wars, destroyed their economies by war and become easy prey for later Greek and Roman empires) - Sasanian Empire and Byzantine Empire in 7th century AD (after the ceasefire with Byzantine Empire, Sasanian emperor was imprisoned, their economy was broken and there was chaos in the empire until Muslims defeated them with not much hardship... The Byzantines although won the war, were weakened too and couldn't hold against Muslims) - German Empire in WW1 and WW2 (after few years of war in both fronts, their economy couldn't handle it anymore. In the first case it hastened the surrendering of Germany, and in the second case it weakens the country during the last few years of war to the level of destroyed currency... and certainly their industry turned to ashes) - British Empire in WW1 and WW2 (lead to losing most of its colonies and its supreme power status) - USA Empire after Afghanistan and Iraq wars (their financial collapse may soon happen because instead of lowering the expending they increased it in Obama age) Should be enough... Yes. It's put very succinctly in Sun Tzu Art of War, in one of the commentaries I believe - I can't quote it verbatim, but written Chinese can't really be quoted verbatim anyway - , something like: " those who so love war, shall certainly perish."
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Post by B. Hieronymus Da on Sept 23, 2016 22:55:04 GMT
One of the biggest errors the states made re Iraq was disbanding the army including rep guard once the war was 'won' just a huge error. Yes, but those who accepted that decision seem to belong to that mindbogglingly stupid wing of rightwingers who fantasize that less order and less government is beneficial. Maybe they expected a phenomenal outburst of prosperity? Those who championed and took it, were those who expected it would be easier for their friends to rob all the fundings through lucrative contracts. They were right, otoh.
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Post by B. Hieronymus Da on Sept 23, 2016 23:06:41 GMT
As for WW2. I don't really get why it periodically gets fashionable to pretend that Patton was "overrated". That brilliant insight about this craftsman of war who managed every campaign competently, seem to have only one single origin: Omar Bradleys mouth.
If we want to play 'What If' about German victory in WW2, I think there are two really big elephants in the room: What would have happened if Germany could have used Luftwaffe to support their troops in the East? What would have happened if Hitler had never bothered to attack France (or Britain)?
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Post by Lavochkin on Sept 24, 2016 1:31:38 GMT
As for WW2. I don't really get why it periodically gets fashionable to pretend that Patton was "overrated". That brilliant insight about this craftsman of war who managed every campaign competently, seem to have only one single origin: Omar Bradleys mouth. If we want to play 'What If' about German victory in WW2, I think there are two really big elephants in the room: What would have happened if Germany could have used Luftwaffe to support their troops in the East? What would have happened if Hitler had never bothered to attack France (or Britain)? What would've been better than a "German victory in WW2" was a Germany that after consolidating their territorial gains with Austria and the Sudentenland(which were gained without a shot fired), worked out a deal with Poland over annexing Danzig and coming into some kind of arrangement with the corridor, and after doing all that.....that's it. We'd have a larger and stronger Germany and no conflict. This of course, would've required a different German leader.
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Post by B. Hieronymus Da on Sept 24, 2016 8:30:15 GMT
As for WW2. I don't really get why it periodically gets fashionable to pretend that Patton was "overrated". That brilliant insight about this craftsman of war who managed every campaign competently, seem to have only one single origin: Omar Bradleys mouth. If we want to play 'What If' about German victory in WW2, I think there are two really big elephants in the room: What would have happened if Germany could have used Luftwaffe to support their troops in the East? What would have happened if Hitler had never bothered to attack France (or Britain)? What would've been better than a "German victory in WW2" was a Germany that after consolidating their territorial gains with Austria and the Sudentenland(which were gained without a shot fired), worked out a deal with Poland over annexing Danzig and coming into some kind of arrangement with the corridor, and after doing all that.....that's it. We'd have a larger and stronger Germany and no conflict. This of course, would've required a different German leader. ...Uhmm. I think you misread me there somewhere. *What if*s quickly become diffuse nonsense, which is why it's of limited usefulness to indulge in them. They are worthwhile only as means to identify mistakes or opportunities, in a very short perspective. Hitler was an artist. His leadership was not the usual of trying to provide a way to prosperity and welfare for the people, or alternatively enriching himself and friends. He was doing an art project. This War of wars in future history books. This giant Germania empire, full of pompous architecture and populated by beautiful, healthy "aryan" people. That's what he burned for. He didn't give a rat's ass for the wellbeing of the German people. They were just one of his brushes, to be used and discarded. Shaping the empire was his goal. Not the existing people. He'd kill everyone of them if he could replace them with a blond, blue-eyed model. What I thought was interesting in these cases is the role the Luftwaffe didn't get to play in the war. Since most historians ignore it. And in the other case the question of not fighting on two fronts. Hitler attacked France because he didn't want to fight on two fronts. But what if that is really how he got two fronts? What if he had just played it cool and done nothing. Splitting and digesting Poland with his pal Stalin. And waiting. What is Britain and France going to do? They're not mobilized or equipped to fight a war. Much less an offensive war. Any such attempt against Germany would have been total disaster. And it wouldn't have gone down well in USA either. They declared war on Germany because of the invasion of Poland. But with Poland gone, what are they to do? Declare war on Soviet as well, for their part? How long before the democratic forces pull down Churchill and other 'warmongers' from power?
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Post by kizanare on Sept 24, 2016 9:08:57 GMT
There's no "What ifs" and you get a similar conclusion.
Nazi Germany pretty much destroys and takes over all of continental Europe and even parts of Africa.
Then they basically destroy the USSR.
Then the Allies and kind of all the others (India, New Zealand, Australia, Canada, U.S.) get in on the act late in the stages of the war manifesting itself with various things, Dieppe raid, etc.
Nazi Germany pretty much stonewalls the Allies in Italy, resulting in DDay.
Nazi Germany rips through the best fighting men of the US and various other forces, setting up the Battle of the Bulge.... even though they were losing ground on both east and west at that point.
Before that battle, as stated, Nazi Germany hadn't lost to pretty much anyone in the world, any country, at least in the overall sense, anywhere, then the various US forces get it together enough to win a single battle (in a strategic sense) basically, and given the incredible numbers of USSR etc everything, Nazi Germany could not win if they lost a single battle tactically/strategically.
So once that happened, the war was basically over.
The crazy reality though, is that Nazi Germany was basically fine up to BotB, as stated, they had an in tact half million strong army in Scandinavia and were rapidly developing even more powerful weapons and technology, as stated, it was the United States, and no one other than the US that essentially determined the fall of Nazi Germany.
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Post by straykat on Sept 24, 2016 9:50:16 GMT
I think US might have won eventually.. since they were developing nukes to use against Nazis specifically. By the time they finished only Japan was left. But in your scenario, Germany would still be around. And they still wouldn't have anything to fight this off.
It might have taken more than two nukes though. I think they were even more fanatical than the Japanese.
...
On a sidenote, I'm glad it didn't work out this way. I'm watching a documentary from the 90s, about the Cold War. America helped do good things for Germany eventually (and Europe). And in the longrun, maybe it was a good thing that the Soviets stole the nuke too... just to deter either of them getting too powerful and using this more.
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Post by kizanare on Sept 24, 2016 9:55:30 GMT
I couldn't help but notice that the Manhattan Project finished only after Germany had lost WW2... that is to say after their own developments were essentially just taken whole0cloth. I think the unavoidable conclusion is that essentially they needed Nazi secrets and material on that front in order to complete the bomb ultimately.
I've no doubt many people would contest this but it's definitely a fact that the bomb wasn't completed until after Germany had totally lost the war (and whatever was meant to be recovered was recovered)
But yes that was kind of my point, ignoring nukes, I think the US wins eventually, although if it were a medieval contest, Nazi Germany would of essentially taken over the entire East Coast and most of the heartland of America, and it would of been kind of a "Scotland during the Roman Empire" situation where resistance fighters in Denver and California, the Dakotas, etc, kept it going and used a lot of guerilla tactics to eventually prevail after a virtual mutual genocide.
If someone wants to call that one side "winning" they could, not sure why, though.
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Post by straykat on Sept 24, 2016 10:05:31 GMT
I couldn't help but notice that the Manhattan Project finished only after Germany had lost WW2... that is to say after their own developments were essentially just taken whole0cloth. I think the unavoidable conclusion is that essentially they needed Nazi secrets and material on that front in order to complete the bomb ultimately. I've no doubt many people would contest this but it's definitely a fact that the bomb wasn't completed until after Germany had totally lost the war (and whatever was meant to be recovered was recovered) But yes that was kind of my point, ignoring nukes, I think the US wins eventually, although if it were a medieval contest, Nazi Germany would of essentially taken over the entire East Coast and most of the heartland of America, and it would of been kind of a "Scotland during the Roman Empire" situation where resistance fighters in Denver and California kept it going and used a lot of guerilla tactics to eventually prevail after a virtual mutual genocide. If someone wants to call that one side "winning" they could, not sure why, though. It's interesting speculation, but theoretically, they knew it would work from the start. And I was under the impression that their initial triggering mechanism set them back.. and the problem of producing enough uranium or plutonium.. neither easy to come by. Even once they were ready, they only had enough for a few bombs. That's why there was only one test.
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Post by kizanare on Sept 24, 2016 10:09:10 GMT
My understanding was basically both sides were fairly theoretically aware of the possibilities, but right as you say some of it boiled down to resources.
Delivery was certainly more advanced in Nazi Germany.
Ultimately though I think I read some scientist in Nazi Germany was basically there but it was also the end of the war at that point, at least, my understanding, then they pretty much had to focus purely on just infantry/tank warfare because they were literally at the doorstep.
Actually, in medieval terms, it might of literally just been San Diego or something as like the last holdout, like the Maniots during the Ottoman Empire, or that tiny portion of Belgium during WWI.
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Post by nanotm on Sept 24, 2016 11:11:15 GMT
The crazy reality though, is that Nazi Germany was basically fine up to BotB, as stated, they had an in tact half million strong army in Scandinavia and were rapidly developing even more powerful weapons and technology, as stated, it was the United States, and no one other than the US that essentially determined the fall of Nazi Germany. um no it was the SOE agents that sabotaged hitlers push to create a nuke in Scandinavia and the sabotage by more SOE agents of his V2 rocket program that sealed the fate of the Nazis, their army was bogged down in Russia and due to the Russian policy of burning as they retreated the Germans died in their thousands due to the cold winter nights, they had no hope of victory on that front all Russia did was waste lives to stall them and then the weather did the rest. had those SOE agents failed hitler would of created the first atom bomb and the Nazi war machine would wiped out everyone that tried to fight it, but lets say neither side managed to get an atom bomb, how would the war have gone, well Russia was wasting lives in Leningrad stalling for time to keep the Nazis on the plane outside the city until winter did the rest, their trucks didn't work their guns stopped working and their horses were killed to keep the troops alive, but the Russians had equipment that worked regardless, as soon as that happened the germans had lost the war, they were chassed all the way to berlin being killed in their droves.... there was no chance for them to win the Russian front without that nuclear program in Scandinavia bearing fruit... had the allies not already crushed German industry through hourly bombing raid across Germany they might of stood a small chance to hold out against Russia but in reality the allies launched several campaigns to ensure hitlers forces were split across both Europe and Russia, indeed many people viewed market garden as a failure because they didn't manage to sneak the 30th army into Germany to gut the top but it did its diversionary job perfectly, instead of sending his well rested and modified for cold weather units to Russia (that might have meant they were able to defeat the Russians) they were forced to keep them in Europe to keep the allies busy for several months... and of course it gave the Russians time to build more armour armour ultimately used to crush their invaders and it simultaneously gave the allies time to build up the numbers required for D-day.... as to the battle of the bulge allied commanders at the top wanted the Germans to do it, they might of been surprised at the numbers pulled away from the eastern front but they needed to draw away at least half that number so the Russians could start their push anyway, indeed had they failed to bait the trap in such a juicy fashion its likely that the war would of dragged on for a lot longer.... that the allies nearly faced defeat because they had specifically refused to conduct the needed ariel recon to spot troop numbers being moved was a miscalculation, but the us forces managed to hold the line despite harrowing losses and the allies were ultimately successful. another way to look at it is that had the allies lost at the bulge hitler would of signed a piece pact with them and wiped out Russia he would of then taken out the allies in blitzkrieg attacks one by one until the Nazis controlled most of the world, they would of continued the war machine and achieved world domination and ultimately his genocide of everyone that wasn't blue eyed and blond haired would of happened..... just be glad that enough clever and brave people were on the allied side and achieved supremacy through superior intellect despite not actually having superior equipment or numbers /
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Post by straykat on Sept 24, 2016 11:15:54 GMT
Kruschev called Mao an "old boot" that needed to be forgotten (like Stalin). But in Chinese, the word for boot can also mean "prostitute". So the Chinese thought he was calling him an old whore. lol
Thus, ends Sino/Russian relations.
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Post by kizanare on Sept 24, 2016 11:19:31 GMT
The crazy reality though, is that Nazi Germany was basically fine up to BotB, as stated, they had an in tact half million strong army in Scandinavia and were rapidly developing even more powerful weapons and technology, as stated, it was the United States, and no one other than the US that essentially determined the fall of Nazi Germany. um no it was the SOE agents that sabotaged hitlers push to create a nuke in Scandinavia and the sabotage by more SOE agents of his V2 rocket program that sealed the fate of the Nazis, their army was bogged down in Russia and due to the Russian policy of burning as they retreated the Germans died in their thousands due to the cold winter nights, they had no hope of victory on that front all Russia did was waste lives to stall them and then the weather did the rest. had those SOE agents failed hitler would of created the first atom bomb and the Nazi war machine would wiped out everyone that tried to fight it, but lets say neither side managed to get an atom bomb, how would the war have gone, well Russia was wasting lives in Leningrad stalling for time to keep the Nazis on the plane outside the city until winter did the rest, their trucks didn't work their guns stopped working and their horses were killed to keep the troops alive, but the Russians had equipment that worked regardless, as soon as that happened the germans had lost the war, they were chassed all the way to berlin being killed in their droves.... there was no chance for them to win the Russian front without that nuclear program in Scandinavia bearing fruit... had the allies not already crushed German industry through hourly bombing raid across Germany they might of stood a small chance to hold out against Russia but in reality the allies launched several campaigns to ensure hitlers forces were split across both Europe and Russia, indeed many people viewed market garden as a failure because they didn't manage to sneak the 30th army into Germany to gut the top but it did its diversionary job perfectly, instead of sending his well rested and modified for cold weather units to Russia (that might have meant they were able to defeat the Russians) they were forced to keep them in Europe to keep the allies busy for several months... and of course it gave the Russians time to build more armour armour ultimately used to crush their invaders and it simultaneously gave the allies time to build up the numbers required for D-day.... as to the battle of the bulge allied commanders at the top wanted the Germans to do it, they might of been surprised at the numbers pulled away from the eastern front but they needed to draw away at least half that number so the Russians could start their push anyway, indeed had they failed to bait the trap in such a juicy fashion its likely that the war would of dragged on for a lot longer.... that the allies nearly faced defeat because they had specifically refused to conduct the needed ariel recon to spot troop numbers being moved was a miscalculation, but the us forces managed to hold the line despite harrowing losses and the allies were ultimately successful. another way to look at it is that had the allies lost at the bulge hitler would of signed a piece pact with them and wiped out Russia he would of then taken out the allies in blitzkrieg attacks one by one until the Nazis controlled most of the world, they would of continued the war machine and achieved world domination and ultimately his genocide of everyone that wasn't blue eyed and blond haired would of happened..... just be glad that enough clever and brave people were on the allied side and achieved supremacy through superior intellect despite not actually having superior equipment or numbers / Well then you agree with me basically, they basically had the atom bomb, they basically would of eventually crushed Russia, etc, etc. You got the intellect and numbers thing reversed though, Russia/US is sheer numbers and numbers over intellect and such.... I read one article that Russia basically used one strategy the entire war with no exceptions or deviations the entire time more or less. Also Battle of the Bulge was a disaster on some levels... I just meant they were holding... possibly the greatest general was maybe just Devers during the actual Invasion of Germany.
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Post by nanotm on Sept 24, 2016 12:34:33 GMT
the Germans had lower overall troop numbers but they massed far greater numbers of artillery armour and anti armour units, it was the ingenuity of the allies with things like sticky bombs that saw them win since most of their anti armour weaponry was rendered ineffective through the Germans having added thicker plating to their vehicles... so yes it was superior intellect that won the day, despite outnumbering the Germans in manpower numbers the allies were overmatched in firepower terms at the start of the battle of the bulge and even more so after the germans reinforced themselves... but by that time the Nazis had already failed, if if they had managed to somehow beat the allies at the bulge they had lost the war because they lost too much of that key armour to the allies and were essentially done after the first week, the Russians would of rickrolled them without any major problems after that, mostly because they had managed to build a sizeable number of tanks, and yes the Russian philosophy of spend lives until we run out was always going to work, sending 100 guys with 5 bullets each and 1 gun between them always meant they were going to win since htye had the numbers the other side didn't, and it meant they were loosing mouths to feed faster than the germans making their supplies last longer during the siege, it also meant the germans couldn't advance and were effectively stalled, the Luftwaffe couldn't operate in the cold and more german forces were lost to the weather than to enemy fire, but those conscripts bought time whilst the militias trained behind them and the commissars were able to arm and train in staggering numbers.... the Nazi war machine was never going ot be able to win through attrition but their lack of knowledge (knowledge the allies did have) about the extreme cold and its effects was ultimately what cost them the war, Russian air is more wet than Scandinavian and actually colder on the plains so not only would your skin freeze to metal but also ice would form on everything including eyes lips and mouths, and the animals died to the cold so they ran out of transport and their weapons and armour become useless.... lack of knowledge equates to the same thing as stupidity in warfare and that's why the Nazis were doomed from the start, the allies on the other hand knew things because of previous military operations (like the Prussian wars) and so when hitler was dumb enough to attack a non aggressive ally he effectively lost the war, the last 4 years were just the time it took for the message to get through ....
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Post by kizanare on Sept 24, 2016 12:46:23 GMT
the Germans had lower overall troop numbers but they massed far greater numbers of artillery armour and anti armour units, it was the ingenuity of the allies with things like sticky bombs that saw them win since most of their anti armour weaponry was rendered ineffective through the Germans having added thicker plating to their vehicles... so yes it was superior intellect that won the day, despite outnumbering the Germans in manpower numbers the allies were overmatched in firepower terms at the start of the battle of the bulge and even more so after the germans reinforced themselves... but by that time the Nazis had already failed, if if they had managed to somehow beat the allies at the bulge they had lost the war because they lost too much of that key armour to the allies and were essentially done after the first week, the Russians would of rickrolled them without any major problems after that, mostly because they had managed to build a sizeable number of tanks, and yes the Russian philosophy of spend lives until we run out was always going to work, sending 100 guys with 5 bullets each and 1 gun between them always meant they were going to win since htye had the numbers the other side didn't, and it meant they were loosing mouths to feed faster than the germans making their supplies last longer during the siege, it also meant the germans couldn't advance and were effectively stalled, the Luftwaffe couldn't operate in the cold and more german forces were lost to the weather than to enemy fire, but those conscripts bought time whilst the militias trained behind them and the commissars were able to arm and train in staggering numbers.... the Nazi war machine was never going ot be able to win through attrition but their lack of knowledge (knowledge the allies did have) about the extreme cold and its effects was ultimately what cost them the war, Russian air is more wet than Scandinavian and actually colder on the plains so not only would your skin freeze to metal but also ice would form on everything including eyes lips and mouths, and the animals died to the cold so they ran out of transport and their weapons and armour become useless.... lack of knowledge equates to the same thing as stupidity in warfare and that's why the Nazis were doomed from the start, the allies on the other hand knew things because of previous military operations (like the Prussian wars) and so when hitler was dumb enough to attack a non aggressive ally he effectively lost the war, the last 4 years were just the time it took for the message to get through .... I mean what counts as an anti-armour unit? A guy with a Panzerfaust? I think that was the point, the enemy had so much "armour" from sheer mass (literally tens of thousands of Russian tanks) that Germany had to rely on things like the Panzerfaust etc which was wholly devastating and ripped through huge numbers of tanks particularly in the Battle of Berlin itself. You can honestly even make the argument they weren't really done until Hitler committed suicide, they were still holding most of the outer rings and a few key fortresses that took forever to effectively surrender. One of the most effective fighting units in the entire war for instance was the 33rd Waffen Grenadier unit en.wikipedia.org/wiki/33rd_Waffen_Grenadier_Division_of_the_SS_Charlemagne_(1st_French)They were pretty much a tiny force composed of nothing but guys and perhaps even children with Panzerfausts and that's how you get 2000 tanks destroyed during the final battle there itself. And what convinced him most of all to finally commit suicide? It wasn't really the failure of Seelow Heights and Steiner's offensive like in the movie, it was Wenck's failed efforts which was once again bogged down by guess who the Americans. I'm just saying, in a pure straight up fight ignoring all the other factors Nazi Germany loses to the depths of the US forces every time, but that's it, everything else in the world was handled. Even Russia right in the middle of Berlin wasn't doing the trick, basically.
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Post by B. Hieronymus Da on Sept 24, 2016 17:01:26 GMT
There's no "What ifs" and you get a similar conclusion. Nazi Germany pretty much destroys and takes over all of continental Europe and even parts of Africa. Then they basically destroy the USSR. Then the Allies and kind of all the others (India, New Zealand, Australia, Canada, U.S.) get in on the act late in the stages of the war manifesting itself with various things, Dieppe raid, etc. Nazi Germany pretty much stonewalls the Allies in Italy, resulting in DDay. Nazi Germany rips through the best fighting men of the US and various other forces, setting up the Battle of the Bulge.... even though they were losing ground on both east and west at that point. Before that battle, as stated, Nazi Germany hadn't lost to pretty much anyone in the world, any country, at least in the overall sense, anywhere, then the various US forces get it together enough to win a single battle (in a strategic sense) basically, and given the incredible numbers of USSR etc everything, Nazi Germany could not win if they lost a single battle tactically/strategically. So once that happened, the war was basically over. The crazy reality though, is that Nazi Germany was basically fine up to BotB, as stated, they had an in tact half million strong army in Scandinavia and were rapidly developing even more powerful weapons and technology, as stated, it was the United States, and no one other than the US that essentially determined the fall of Nazi Germany. You know what I think? That you are going to have decades of glorious exploration of WW2 ahead of you. And that you are going to change opinion many times. WW2 is neither a small nor simple historical complex. Germany was not basically fine up to BotB. That line makes me remember the scene in Pulp Fiction, where Bruce Willis asks Ving Rhames if he's okay... No, by the time of BotB, Germany was pretty F*****. By that time, Luftwaffe was utterly shot down, fuel supply cut and large parts of Germany in ruins. Germany was basically fine by BoB, meaning Battle of Britain. That's where it started to go seriously wrong, as the failure there meant that Germany was stuck with a 2-front war and an entrance was left for USA to enter the war. Though I would argue that the essential mistake was attacking France. That Germany would lose, no matter what, if US enters the war, is a given thing.
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Post by Lavochkin on Sept 24, 2016 18:31:20 GMT
Vids on the WW1 backgrounds of notable WW2 figures.
(Hopefully they do one on Goering in the future)
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kizanare
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Post by kizanare on Sept 25, 2016 7:54:56 GMT
There's no "What ifs" and you get a similar conclusion. Nazi Germany pretty much destroys and takes over all of continental Europe and even parts of Africa. Then they basically destroy the USSR. Then the Allies and kind of all the others (India, New Zealand, Australia, Canada, U.S.) get in on the act late in the stages of the war manifesting itself with various things, Dieppe raid, etc. Nazi Germany pretty much stonewalls the Allies in Italy, resulting in DDay. Nazi Germany rips through the best fighting men of the US and various other forces, setting up the Battle of the Bulge.... even though they were losing ground on both east and west at that point. Before that battle, as stated, Nazi Germany hadn't lost to pretty much anyone in the world, any country, at least in the overall sense, anywhere, then the various US forces get it together enough to win a single battle (in a strategic sense) basically, and given the incredible numbers of USSR etc everything, Nazi Germany could not win if they lost a single battle tactically/strategically. So once that happened, the war was basically over. The crazy reality though, is that Nazi Germany was basically fine up to BotB, as stated, they had an in tact half million strong army in Scandinavia and were rapidly developing even more powerful weapons and technology, as stated, it was the United States, and no one other than the US that essentially determined the fall of Nazi Germany. You know what I think? That you are going to have decades of glorious exploration of WW2 ahead of you. And that you are going to change opinion many times. WW2 is neither a small nor simple historical complex. Germany was not basically fine up to BotB. That line makes me remember the scene in Pulp Fiction, where Bruce Willis asks Ving Rhames if he's okay... No, by the time of BotB, Germany was pretty F*****. By that time, Luftwaffe was utterly shot down, fuel supply cut and large parts of Germany in ruins. Germany was basically fine by BoB, meaning Battle of Britain. That's where it started to go seriously wrong, as the failure there meant that Germany was stuck with a 2-front war and an entrance was left for USA to enter the war. Though I would argue that the essential mistake was attacking France. That Germany would lose, no matter what, if US enters the war, is a given thing. You know what I know? I'm pretty much done with WW2, I've covered it more than enough, European history etc. I daresay it's the beginning of the end, having already delved into that complexity far too many times to count, including the ethical and moral ramifications, analogies to the present, etc. I'm sure those narratives will change but I'm not really interested in following, whatever interested in me about it all I kind of got my answers, I guess. Anyway, nother interesting quirk is how long after the war was supposedly "over" it kept going, at least a few days in Berlin, a week more even still fighting. Apparently even like 375 days or something a reconnaissance squad in Iceland or something finally returned thinking the war was still going on... crazy stuff. Apparently a Flak Tower in the Berlin Zoo kept going for a long time and they basically never even really were captured they just eventually stopped fighting, same for a number of fortresses back along the Rhine. I think it even took the army near Czechoslovakia another few weeks to capitulate, and so on and so forth. Btu yes, the US entering, means, Germany loses on some level, true.
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Post by Arijon van Goyen on Sept 25, 2016 8:26:04 GMT
Friendly reminder: Civilizations with liberal tendencies fail and get conquered fast.
Unless your enemies are like Mongolians in the 13th century. Then it doesn't matter what your socio-economical policies are!
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Post by kizanare on Sept 25, 2016 8:41:19 GMT
Friendly reminder: Civilizations with liberal tendencies fail and get conquered fast. Unless your enemies are like Mongolians in the 13th century. Then it doesn't matter what your socio-economical policies are! False, civilizations tend to conquer hunter gathering nimrods full of pride and ego and violence, know what the #1 cause of death was in HG society? Murder. Hateful, stupid people eat berries off of plants like pieces of ****. Civilization and liberal tendencies are one and the same, "hateful civilization" is an oxymoron.
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PhroX
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Post by PhroX on Sept 25, 2016 10:08:41 GMT
Regarding the state of Germany in WW2....read Tooze's Wages of Destruction.
Which leads me onto a more general point - lets have some book recommendations. Youtube videos are interesting, but they can't compete with a good old fashioned bit of dead tree for depth.
Here's a few from me, rather scattered about topic wise, but all well worth checking out:
Findlay, Power and Plenty - An overview of trade in the second millennium and how it shaped history Wilson, Europe's Tragedy - The definite history of the 30 Years War Clark, The Sleepwalkers - Best book I've read on the origins of WW1 McPherson, Battle Cry of Freedom - Probably the best single volume book on the American Civil War Foner, Reconstruction - The perfect follow up to the previous Halsall, Barbarian Migrations and the Roman West - Not the easiest read, as it's intended more as a textbook, but covers the whole "barbarians vs Rome" thing very well Mann, 1491 - Good history of pre-columbian America Miles, Carthage Must Be Destroyed - Very well written look at the Punic Wars and Carthage in general.
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