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Post by ScumbagShepurd on Feb 17, 2017 11:36:44 GMT
Jews, allied with the Sassanid Persians, held and controlled Jerusalem and the Roman province of Palestine from 613 to 617 AD. Pressure from the Persian shahinshah's Christian subjects in the face of Jews killing Christians in the city and the rest of the province, eventually shifted direct control of the city away from the Jewish leaders (no king was crowned). en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_revolt_against_HeracliusThis was in effect the last revolt the Jews ever undertook against the Romans, and was also the most succesful one. Had the Persians been succesful against the Romans, and had the Arabs been defeated and contained to the Arabian peninsula, Jews might have become part of a vassal kingdom under the Sassanid Persian empire. For as long as that might have lasted... As it was, the Romans eventually regained Jerusalem, expelled all Jews from the city, and proceeded to massacre the Jews there. I know Byzantines called themselves Romans, but from modern point of view the Empire was more Greek than Roman by the 7th century. So it's probably more accurate to call them Greeks.
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Post by bear on Feb 17, 2017 13:49:00 GMT
It would be historically misleading to call simply call them Greeks. Primarily because it makes it confusing for those who might confuse "Greeks" with "Ancient Greeks" and "Greeks" as a ethnic-linguistic group. Greek was always the administrative language of the eastern half of the Roman empire just like Latin was for the western half. Doesn't make the eastern half lesss "Roman". Rome was a state, a civic construct, a civilization, not an ethnicity.
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Post by masterwarderz on Feb 17, 2017 13:53:34 GMT
It would be historically misleading to call simply call them Greeks. Primarily because it makes it confusing for those who might confuse "Greeks" with "Ancient Greeks" and "Greeks" as a ethnic-linguistic group. Greek was always the administrative language of the eastern half of the Roman empire just like Latin was for the western half. Doesn't make the eastern half lesss "Roman". Rome was a state, a civic construct, a civilization, not an ethnicity. They certainly considered themselves 'heirs' to Rome. On this point though, there is a sizable group with the Greek Orthodox Church that actually wants to reclaim Constantinople via well...Crusade They sort of view that city as their's by right, and well... You can kind of make a case for it.
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Post by masterwarderz on Feb 17, 2017 13:59:49 GMT
Speaking of Crusades and Constantinople
A relevant video.
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Post by ScumbagShepurd on Feb 17, 2017 14:12:13 GMT
It would be historically misleading to call simply call them Greeks. And calling them Romans ain't misleading? Rome was a state, a civic construct, a civilization, not an ethnicity. Yes, but all of it had died during VI and VII centuries and was replaced with Greek. The leftovers of Roman civilization-- Latin language, military system (legions and all that jazz), and names and titles-- were replaced with Greek language, Theme system, and Greek names and titles (for instance, "Basileus" instead of "Augustus") respectively.
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Post by bear on Feb 17, 2017 14:14:55 GMT
Orthodox "Crusade"? Good luck getting the Patriarch in Istanbul to declare something like that. I don't think they even have that concept in the Orthodox denomination. I don't see how one could say that that's not what they were. The actual city of Rome had been falling into ruin even before what little remained of the WRE died. Constantinople had been made the new, prestigious, center of the Roman nobility, senate and culture. But As for Greek Orthodox clergy wanting back Constantinople. I wish them the same amount of luck that I'd extent to Zoroastrians wishing to reclaim Iran for Ahura Mazda. The city didn't belong to the clergy, it belonged to the empire and the emperor. That last emperor died in 1453. The tzars of Russia had some claim to Constantinople in their capacity as tzars, but they have no power anymore.
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Post by bear on Feb 17, 2017 14:27:06 GMT
It would be historically misleading to call simply call them Greeks. And calling them Romans ain't misleading? Rome was a state, a civic construct, a civilization, not an ethnicity. Yes, but all of it had died during VI and VII centuries and was replaced with Greek. The leftovers of Roman civilization-- Latin language, military system (legions and all that jazz), and names and titles-- were replaced with Greek language, Theme system, and Greek names and titles (for instance, "Basileus" instead of "Augustus") respectively. If that's what they were called, how can it be misleading? The term "Byzantines" or "Eastern Roman Empire" are modern historiographical terms meant to distinguish, in terms of time period, between classical Rome and post-Constantine Rome where the center of Roman power shifted Rome and Ravenna towards Constantinople. And what? 0_o "All of it died in the 6th and 7th centuries"? The Roman state most certainly did not die out during the 6th and 7th centuries, it was in fact more powerful than ever during the reign of Justinian I. You are confusing "Latin" with "Roman". One is not the other. Latin and Greek are languages. Rome is a state construct, a "country". The "country" of Rome did not die in the 6th and 7th century.
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Post by masterwarderz on Feb 17, 2017 14:34:58 GMT
The tzars of Russia had some claim to Constantinople in their capacity as tzars, but they have no power anymore. That actually ties into an interest premise that I have heard of involving an alternative ending to world war one in which you have Russian/Greek cooperation to reclaim the city but beyond that its nothing more then an entertaining notion to think of, I myself find the premise a little too stuck in the mentality of having it as overseas territory assigned to the Ruskies to be very on board with it. Neat idea for a historical AU book though. Overall I'd prefer the city return to its former controlling interests then the current folks who besieged it and decided to never leave but that's neither here nor there. I merely remarked upon that being a somewhat popular stance among the Church in Greece, not that they'd have the capacity to do anything about it, but given the current situation who knows. Its not like Turkey is proving itself a friend of anyone these days, but that conversation would fall under modern politics rather then historical ones wouldn't it?
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Post by masterwarderz on Feb 17, 2017 14:42:22 GMT
I don't think they even have that concept in the Orthodox denomination. It exists, it has existed historically as a concept. If you want a very big name in advocating of using 'The Word of the Lord in the name of War?' Augustine of Hippo circa the 400s AD via his Just War Theory. Which I presume everyone has heard of, via some extent or another given he set criteria for war to be needed, mandated, required etc for it to be 'just'. Point being the contention for it exists outside of the Catholic Church even if they deemed the man a Saint, it isn't as if his teachings are not applicable to the Orthodox church. It's never been acted upon but it exists. Though even that I'd argue isn't necessarily the truth given that in its time the Church has backed one side or another in war, has fought, has called for violence. Yet because they did not label it a 'Crusade' it doesn't count?
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Post by Heimdall on Feb 17, 2017 15:06:49 GMT
It would be historically misleading to call simply call them Greeks. Primarily because it makes it confusing for those who might confuse "Greeks" with "Ancient Greeks" and "Greeks" as a ethnic-linguistic group. Greek was always the administrative language of the eastern half of the Roman empire just like Latin was for the western half. Doesn't make the eastern half lesss "Roman". Rome was a state, a civic construct, a civilization, not an ethnicity. Are you sure Greek was always the administrative language of the eastern half of the empire? I thought it gradually became dominant as the western half waned. Regardless, the eastern empire evolved considerably and developed a distinct Greek speaking cultural identity of its own that went beyond a simple continuation of Rome. So I just call them Byzantines.
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Post by bear on Feb 17, 2017 15:06:50 GMT
Yes, if Russia hadn't turned Communist and had supported a Greek takeover of what is today's Western Turkey, it probably would have ended up as some sort of Russian satellite state.
And there are people of many different religions and ethnicities that probably like to retake some territory that "they" lost to someone fifty, hundred, thousand or two thousand years ago. The Turks won the city over 600 years ago. No one can claim legitimate ownership of something lost that long time ago. You can invade, and then, make up pseudo-historical nonsense like the Israelis did by waving passages claiming that their Divine Real Estate Agent gifted them that land millenia ago. But at the end of the day, the only thing that matters, is wether you kill the people you need to kill to take over the land, and wether or not you succesfully attain some diplomatic recognition of your assumed ownership of the captured territory.
I'd prefer living in a world where the only way to change national borders is through political consent. If Greek Orthodox people want Constantinople back, there are only two legitimate parties that need consulting and who need to agree with the claim: The national government of Turkey and the actual people now living in Instanbul.
And Turkey was sold out by the Obama administration and the rest of NATO when we all decided to arm the, admittededly sympathetic, Kurdish YPG fighters...who actively support seperatist terrorism against our long-standing NATO ally Turkey. If we've proven ourselves traitorous "friends" ourselves beforehand, then we cannot expect being treated like friends in return. Common sense, tbh. Doesn't mean I like Turkish regime, though. Just understand their distrust for fair weather friends.
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Post by bear on Feb 17, 2017 15:10:52 GMT
It would be historically misleading to call simply call them Greeks. Primarily because it makes it confusing for those who might confuse "Greeks" with "Ancient Greeks" and "Greeks" as a ethnic-linguistic group. Greek was always the administrative language of the eastern half of the Roman empire just like Latin was for the western half. Doesn't make the eastern half lesss "Roman". Rome was a state, a civic construct, a civilization, not an ethnicity. Are you sure Greek was always the administrative language of the eastern half of the empire? I thought it gradually became dominant as the western half waned. Regardless, the eastern empire evolved considerably and developed a distinct Greek speaking cultural identity of its own that went beyond a simple continuation of Rome. So I just call them Byzantines. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_the_Roman_Empire
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Post by Arijon van Goyen on Feb 17, 2017 15:21:00 GMT
I don't think they even have that concept in the Orthodox denomination. It exists, it has existed historically as a concept. If you want a very big name in advocating of using 'The Word of the Lord in the name of War?' Augustine of Hippo circa the 400s AD via his Just War Theory. Which I presume everyone has heard of, via some extent or another given he set criteria for war to be needed, mandated, required etc for it to be 'just'. Point being the contention for it exists outside of the Catholic Church even if they deemed the man a Saint, it isn't as if his teachings are not applicable to the Orthodox church. It's never been acted upon but it exists. Though even that I'd argue isn't necessarily the truth given that in its time the Church has backed one side or another in war, has fought, has called for violence. Yet because they did not label it a 'Crusade' it doesn't count? I agree with you. And... This is the 2nd holiest (if not the holiest) city of Orthodox Christianity. Even if 1000 years is passed after its conquest, the Greeks and the Russians have a rightful claim on it. I predict its recapture will happen in the 22nd century.
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Post by bear on Feb 17, 2017 15:31:36 GMT
I don't think they even have that concept in the Orthodox denomination. It exists, it has existed historically as a concept. If you want a very big name in advocating of using 'The Word of the Lord in the name of War?' Augustine of Hippo circa the 400s AD via his Just War Theory. Which I presume everyone has heard of, via some extent or another given he set criteria for war to be needed, mandated, required etc for it to be 'just'. Point being the contention for it exists outside of the Catholic Church even if they deemed the man a Saint, it isn't as if his teachings are not applicable to the Orthodox church. It's never been acted upon but it exists. Though even that I'd argue isn't necessarily the truth given that in its time the Church has backed one side or another in war, has fought, has called for violence. Yet because they did not label it a 'Crusade' it doesn't count? Just war and crusade are not the same. Justified war - usually defensive war - is not the "pious war" found in the Crusades, where warmaking itself is an act of piety, wether defensive or aggressive.
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ScumbagShepurd
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Post by ScumbagShepurd on Feb 17, 2017 15:34:57 GMT
And calling them Romans ain't misleading? Yes, but all of it had died during VI and VII centuries and was replaced with Greek. The leftovers of Roman civilization-- Latin language, military system (legions and all that jazz), and names and titles-- were replaced with Greek language, Theme system, and Greek names and titles (for instance, "Basileus" instead of "Augustus") respectively. If that's what they were called, how can it be misleading? The term "Byzantines" or "Eastern Roman Empire" are modern historiographical terms meant to distinguish, in terms of time period, between classical Rome and post-Constantine Rome where the center of Roman power shifted Rome and Ravenna towards Constantinople. And what? 0_o "All of it died in the 6th and 7th centuries"? The Roman state most certainly did not die out during the 6th and 7th centuries, it was in fact more powerful than ever during the reign of Justinian I. You are confusing "Latin" with "Roman". One is not the other. Latin and Greek are languages. Rome is a state construct, a "country". The "country" of Rome did not die in the 6th and 7th century. First off, I neither mix up Latin and Roman, nor I think of Rome as ethnicity. I just think Latin language was considerable part of Roman civilization. If Latin language wasn't used anymore and other parts of what can be considered Roman civilization were lost, then there's nothing to be called "Roman". Second, "Romanians" means "Romans", it's just the same. Should we consider them Romans? The point is, sometimes states evolve into something completely different to the point where we can't consider them what they used to be, so we should think of them as something different. If I'm not mistaken and understand you correctly, then according to your logic the Caliphate didn't die in 1258 when Mongols sacked Baghdad. How could it die if Mamluk Egypt proclaimed itself continuation of the old Caliphate?And then the Ottomans conquered Egypt in 1517 and the Ottoman sultan proclaimed himself the Caliph. So do you think the Caliphate, the original Caliphate that was founded by Arabs in the VII century, actually ended in 1924 with the last Ottoman sultan? No, it didn't. It had died long before that and any other Caliphates were not the same as the original one, no matter what they claimed themselves. So yes, Roman civilization died and Roman state evolved into something completely different during VI-VII centuries. It wasn't that Roman to begin with tbh. But yeah, we can consider East Roman Empire as new Rome at the dawn of its existence. But to the VII century there was no Rome anywhere on Earth but in Italy. It's interesting discussion though. If you point out that there's no criteria on when should we think of states as something different from what they used to be, I will probably agree Should we think of post-1789 France as completely different country? idk lol. But as far as I know, there's some kind of universal consensus among historians that Byzantine Empire stopped being Roman Empire after some time.
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Post by Heimdall on Feb 17, 2017 15:35:37 GMT
Are you sure Greek was always the administrative language of the eastern half of the empire? I thought it gradually became dominant as the western half waned. Regardless, the eastern empire evolved considerably and developed a distinct Greek speaking cultural identity of its own that went beyond a simple continuation of Rome. So I just call them Byzantines. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_the_Roman_EmpireDominant as a language in the region of course, but I was under the impression that Latin was still the language of imperial administration. According to that link, both were used by government officials although Latin remained the language of the military and for imperial edicts, at least for awhile. Eventually they just used Greek.
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Post by masterwarderz on Feb 17, 2017 15:38:55 GMT
It exists, it has existed historically as a concept. If you want a very big name in advocating of using 'The Word of the Lord in the name of War?' Augustine of Hippo circa the 400s AD via his Just War Theory. Which I presume everyone has heard of, via some extent or another given he set criteria for war to be needed, mandated, required etc for it to be 'just'. Point being the contention for it exists outside of the Catholic Church even if they deemed the man a Saint, it isn't as if his teachings are not applicable to the Orthodox church. It's never been acted upon but it exists. Though even that I'd argue isn't necessarily the truth given that in its time the Church has backed one side or another in war, has fought, has called for violence. Yet because they did not label it a 'Crusade' it doesn't count? Just war and crusade are not the same. Justified war - usually defensive war - is not the "pious war" found in the Crusades, where warmaking itself is an act of piety, wether defensive or aggressive. That'd be a matter of historical contention in relation to what constitutes a 'Crusade' you asked if the term existed outside of the Catholics, I gave you its father. Or rather his own musings on what mandated a righteous war in acting in concert with the teachings of the gospel that preach peace. I mean I could have gone more modern but I figured that having a fellow who lived in the time of Rome and its relation to the topic at hand was a point that I needed to make. I mean even I honor saints from pre division, if they are like this fellow a guy who predates the actual founding of the Catholic Church as an institution. But that relates more to Christian secular politicking then history.
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Post by bear on Feb 17, 2017 15:45:34 GMT
I agree with you. And... This is the 2nd holiest (if not the holiest) city of Orthodox Christianity. Even if 1000 years is passed after its conquest, the Greeks and the Russians have a rightful claim on it. I predict its recapture will happen in the 22nd century. If 21st century Russia is anything to go by, a Russian aiding in taking Istanbul to "retake" it for Orthodoxy, is very unlikely. Russia is one of the most Islam-friendly countries in Europe, of those not majority Muslim themselves. They allow (regionally) sharia courts and Putin claimed that Islam is closer to Orthodox Christianity than Catholicism is. And most of the native Muslim population of Russia (those territories conquered in the eastern expansion of the 18th to 19th centuries) are Sunni Muslim. I don't see why Russian Orthodox Christians, both at the state level or popular level would want to engage in something so stupid as taking Constantinople?
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Post by bear on Feb 17, 2017 16:16:12 GMT
If that's what they were called, how can it be misleading? The term "Byzantines" or "Eastern Roman Empire" are modern historiographical terms meant to distinguish, in terms of time period, between classical Rome and post-Constantine Rome where the center of Roman power shifted Rome and Ravenna towards Constantinople. And what? 0_o "All of it died in the 6th and 7th centuries"? The Roman state most certainly did not die out during the 6th and 7th centuries, it was in fact more powerful than ever during the reign of Justinian I. You are confusing "Latin" with "Roman". One is not the other. Latin and Greek are languages. Rome is a state construct, a "country". The "country" of Rome did not die in the 6th and 7th century. First off, I neither mix up Latin and Roman, nor I think of Rome as ethnicity. I just think Latin language was considerable part of Roman civilization. If Latin language wasn't used anymore and other parts of what can be considered Roman civilization were lost, then there's nothing to be called "Roman". Second, "Romanians" means "Romans", it's just the same. Should we consider them Romans? My apologies for making assumptions, then. They were part of Rome at one point, but no. They did not rule the Roman empire, nor were any Dacian or Romanian city the administrative seat of the empire. Calling themselves, or being called "Romans", doesn't make them Romans. The point is, sometimes states evolve into something completely different to the point where we can't consider them what they used to be, so we should think of them as something different. - Your argument makes sense. It's just that we differ on the "completely different" part. The Romans also become "completely" different when Christianity became the state religion.
Hell... you could also argue that they became completely different when they started wearing pants. That's what some Romans believed themselves at the time...
If I'm not mistaken and understand you correctly, then according to your logic the Caliphate didn't die in 1258 when Mongols sacked Baghdad. How could it die if Mamluk Egypt proclaimed itself continuation of the old Caliphate?And then the Ottomans conquered Egypt in 1517 and the Ottoman sultan proclaimed himself the Caliph. So do you think the Caliphate, the original Caliphate that was founded by Arabs in the VII century, actually ended in 1924 with the last Ottoman sultan? No, it didn't. It had died long before that and any other Caliphates were not the same as the original one, no matter what they claimed themselves. The Caliphate is not the Roman empire. I am not asserting universal truths here. If a state is conquered, destroyed, all its government functions either destroyed over taking over by a conqueror, then it is no more. That did not happen to the last Roman emperor until 1453AD. The Mongols destroyed the Abbassid caliphate, and that caliphate was thus destroyed. There is no continuity between it and the Ottomans. But there is straight line of continuity between the decline of Western Rome and the rise of Eastern Rome in terms of the institutions of state, administration, and it becoming the new Roman capital already under Constantine I. So yes, Roman civilization died and Roman state evolved into something completely different during VI-VII centuries. It wasn't that Roman to begin with tbh. But yeah, we can consider East Roman Empire as new Rome at the dawn of its existence. But to the VII century there was no Rome anywhere on Earth but in Italy. We'll have to agree to disagree on that, I guess. Seems we're going in circles abit, now. It's interesting discussion though. If you point out that there's no criteria on when should we think of states as something different from what they used to be, I will probably agree Should we think of post-1789 France as completely different country? idk lol. But as far as I know, there's some kind of universal consensus among historians that Byzantine Empire stopped being Roman Empire after some time. The books I've read and used usually referred to either ERE (Eastern Roman Empire) or Byzantine Empire. Historians use those terms for practical purposes. It defines which period of time the historian is talking about. I personally like ERE over Byzantine, because Byzantine just seems to illicit even more blank stares than "Eastern Roman Empire".... at least then they'll ask, "Why Eastern Roman...".
Generally seems that professional historians don't devote much time to contemplating wether they personally see ERE/Byzans as a continuity or a break with Rome. If it's something they focus on at all, it's to describe what everybody else at the time thought of them.
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Post by Arijon van Goyen on Feb 17, 2017 17:06:33 GMT
My pessimistic POV:
Political and economic powers severely change every 100-150 years. Most great cultures flourish spiritually and aesthetically in 700-1000 years, then degenerate and reach stagnation. Social and cultural relations between different cultures and countries are not permanent. Additionally the war for strategic resources and food will be harder than before. Even the nuclear power can't change that.
The globalist dream of turning the earth into one huge global country is nonsense. Diplomatic relations will be different in the 22nd century. Liberalism will die until then, and no, Marxism sucks more. So there will be other forms of governance.
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Post by masterwarderz on Feb 17, 2017 23:31:20 GMT
Old guns and tactics revolving around said old guns.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2017 14:52:00 GMT
It would be historically misleading to call simply call them Greeks. Primarily because it makes it confusing for those who might confuse "Greeks" with "Ancient Greeks" and "Greeks" as a ethnic-linguistic group. Greek was always the administrative language of the eastern half of the Roman empire just like Latin was for the western half. Doesn't make the eastern half lesss "Roman". Rome was a state, a civic construct, a civilization, not an ethnicity. Are you sure Greek was always the administrative language of the eastern half of the empire? I thought it gradually became dominant as the western half waned. Regardless, the eastern empire evolved considerably and developed a distinct Greek speaking cultural identity of its own that went beyond a simple continuation of Rome. So I just call them Byzantines. Greek was the most widely spoken language in the eastern half of the Roman Empire, but Latin had always been the language of government. That changed under the Byzantine emperor Heraclius, who made Greek the language of state. I view the Byzantine empire as a Greek state from that point on, though they continued calling themselves Romans until the empire fell.
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Mr. Rump
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Lavochkin
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lavochkin
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Lavochkin on Feb 18, 2017 15:16:44 GMT
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Mr. Rump
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Apr 28, 2024 20:19:57 GMT
8,986
Lavochkin
6,786
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lavochkin
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Lavochkin on Feb 18, 2017 23:01:23 GMT
These vids got into the history of how these odd borders came to be.
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Mr. Rump
46
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Apr 28, 2024 20:19:57 GMT
8,986
Lavochkin
6,786
August 2016
lavochkin
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Lavochkin on Feb 20, 2017 17:17:11 GMT
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