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Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2017 20:09:28 GMT
So the Remnant aren't only super intelligent. They are intelligent enough to create life. And the life they create is so advanced that it is just organic. It isn't really possible in an Earthly sense to create life like that nobody here is capable of it. So randomly an AI being able to play God and make new life for an unknown purpose? Mass Effect tried to talk about aliens without really trying to write off God but now they have machines that simply create life and the religious person on board says God could be a machine basically.  I really don't like that direction they took in the end. It's suddenly a game where you can't really put in that universe because you'd have to reject the existence of God so it's less immersive. Also why doesn't Andromeda have any natural intelligent species? Kett mutate others, Remnant are an AI, and Angara are creations from machines. Nothing in the heleus cluster really evolved on to own for some reason? It's a really large cluster. |
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ziegrif
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Post by ziegrif on Mar 30, 2017 23:29:29 GMT
Make note that they refer the pilots of the Remnant facility as Jaadaara. SAM mentions them by name.
They're not mentioned that much but they're alluded to being an advanced race and not a god. Advanced enough tech will seem as magic to the less advanced one or godly as the Jaadaara are straight up creating life.
AI can learn infinitely, That's the point. It's an ever expanding intelligence that grows and learns according to its hardware limitations. Given enough time it will surpass its creators into godhood. Because that's what AI does in SCIFI. The remnant is just going through its programming as it's not aware AI like SAM or the Ancient AI and in this case it's mostly defense protocols, opening doors and other things that Ryder and crew tell them to do. The Remnant are not aware. They're tools. Maybe somewhere there is a Remnant AI doing its thing and learning but not in Andromeda.
God was not denied or confirmed. Suvi even says that even after the remnant revelation she'll keep believing as religion isn't exactly about is god there. It's about faith and belief. Or something along those lines.
As for is God in Mass Effect? Dunno. Who started big bang? Maybe God? Maybe Frank from accounting? Who knows.
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Post by Plague Doctor on Mar 30, 2017 23:44:38 GMT
I told Suvi that if she continues to believe in god shed be deluding herself and she actually agreed with me, happily in fact, and acted like i supported her beliefs. Suvis view on religion is strange, is what im saying.
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Post by dmc1001 on Mar 31, 2017 3:16:10 GMT
So the Remnant aren't only super intelligent. They are intelligent enough to create life. And the life they create is so advanced that it is just organic. It isn't really possible in an Earthly sense to create life like that nobody here is capable of it. So randomly an AI being able to play God and make new life for an unknown purpose? Mass Effect tried to talk about aliens without really trying to write off God but now they have machines that simply create life and the religious person on board says God could be a machine basically. I really don't like that direction they took in the end. It's suddenly a game where you can't really put in that universe because you'd have to reject the existence of God so it's less immersive. Also why doesn't Andromeda have any natural intelligent species? Kett mutate others, Remnant are an AI, and Angara are creations from machines. Nothing in the heleus cluster really evolved on to own for some reason? It's a really large cluster. My Ryder's responses were such that Suvi didn't need to reject God. Faith is not meant to be proof-based. Also, the Remnant and Angarans were creations of the Jardaan. That made Suvi wonder if the same couldn't be true of humanity. All very irrelevant, tbh. If you have faith, the fact that some powerful beings genetically created life would not take away from whatever greater truths you hold. Similarly, evolution doesn't need to alter the faith of a believer, but instead change the context. Andromeda apparently does have a natural species, the Jardaan. We simply haven't met them. Also, the Kett were natural at one point but have genetically altered themselves so that they no longer reproduce by natural means. Behemoths, for example, are not really Kett. They don't look like Kett. They're altered krogan, just like husks were altered humans. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2017 4:15:38 GMT
My point is now they can go the route of many other sci fi and be like "Christianity is actually ancient aliens" It's done so frequently and it's not necessary or fun for me. And Mass Effect had a really good story and now the closest they had to a religion perspective is someone totally willing to waive off her faith of God as long as she keeps faith in something. I told her God could still be real and Ryder said even if God is a machine it's no different and that's not at all why I was saying so now I can't even be religious in the games because the new writers must want to make up for any Christian motifs you can see in the original trilogy by now confirming God isn't real in that universe  no fun for me. |
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Post by wildelight on Mar 31, 2017 7:51:56 GMT
My point is now they can go the route of many other sci fi and be like "Christianity is actually ancient aliens" It's done so frequently and it's not necessary or fun for me. And Mass Effect had a really good story and now the closest they had to a religion perspective is someone totally willing to waive off her faith of God as long as she keeps faith in something. I told her God could still be real and Ryder said even if God is a machine it's no different and that's not at all why I was saying so now I can't even be religious in the games because the new writers must want to make up for any Christian motifs you can see in the original trilogy by now confirming God isn't real in that universe no fun for me. I think what Ryder said is that maybe humans were created by machines/AI? (Correct me if I'm misremembering.) I do recall the gist of the convo being: it doesn't matter who the -immediate- creator is, because if you go back a couple of cycles (to use Reaper jargon) life must have (originated out of nowhere/been designed by God) at some point. I never felt like the writers were trying to erase the possibility of a god. The whole Angaran situation does bring up some really interesting questions about the nature of faith, but that's something I actually really appreciate as a bit of added depth. That being said, any scifi that deals with aliens necessitates a bit of head canon if you're strict about how you interpret religious doctrine (regardless of your religion), as being "right" would necessitate copies of that same religion on other worlds (which is not near as fun for the writers as generating entirely new pantheons). I think Suvi's belief in a vague non-demoninational deity is pretty well written honestly. |
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Post by roseofquartz on Mar 31, 2017 8:47:31 GMT
Make note that they refer the pilots of the Remnant facility as Jaadaara. SAM mentions them by name. They're not mentioned that much but they're alluded to being an advanced race and not a god. Advanced enough tech will seem as magic to the less advanced one or godly as the Jaadaara are straight up creating life. AI can learn infinitely, That's the point. It's an ever expanding intelligence that grows and learns according to its hardware limitations. Given enough time it will surpass its creators into godhood. Because that's what AI does in SCIFI. The remnant is just going through its programming as it's not aware AI like SAM or the Ancient AI and in this case it's mostly defense protocols, opening doors and other things that Ryder and crew tell them to do. The Remnant are not aware. They're tools. Maybe somewhere there is a Remnant AI doing its thing and learning but not in Andromeda. God was not denied or confirmed. Suvi even says that even after the remnant revelation she'll keep believing as religion isn't exactly about is god there. It's about faith and belief. Or something along those lines. As for is God in Mass Effect? Dunno. Who started big bang? Maybe God? Maybe Frank from accounting? Who knows. Can I just make a note that I love Suvi? A+ whoever wrote her. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2017 21:38:13 GMT
My point is now they can go the route of many other sci fi and be like "Christianity is actually ancient aliens" It's done so frequently and it's not necessary or fun for me. And Mass Effect had a really good story and now the closest they had to a religion perspective is someone totally willing to waive off her faith of God as long as she keeps faith in something. I told her God could still be real and Ryder said even if God is a machine it's no different and that's not at all why I was saying so now I can't even be religious in the games because the new writers must want to make up for any Christian motifs you can see in the original trilogy by now confirming God isn't real in that universe no fun for me. I think what Ryder said is that maybe humans were created by machines/AI? (Correct me if I'm misremembering.) I do recall the gist of the convo being: it doesn't matter who the -immediate- creator is, because if you go back a couple of cycles (to use Reaper jargon) life must have (originated out of nowhere/been designed by God) at some point. I never felt like the writers were trying to erase the possibility of a god. The whole Angaran situation does bring up some really interesting questions about the nature of faith, but that's something I actually really appreciate as a bit of added depth. That being said, any scifi that deals with aliens necessitates a bit of head canon if you're strict about how you interpret religious doctrine (regardless of your religion), as being "right" would necessitate copies of that same religion on other worlds (which is not near as fun for the writers as generating entirely new pantheons). I think Suvi's belief in a vague non-demoninational deity is pretty well written honestly. My problem is that while Suvi is interesting there's no traditional view. ME OT had a lot of references and a more old school believer but now, when the game gets as far as it goes from traditional modern Christianity (my religion so I can only speak for that), is when it has no traditional view. The main charwcter cant even be Christian. Shepard could be but trying to make Ryder say she has faith leads to dialogue that hints that Ryder is uneasy too. "Oh there could be a machine that we thought God was" isn't nearly the same. |
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Post by SwobyJ on Apr 1, 2017 6:17:32 GMT
Shepard wasn't ever explicitly Christian.
Only deist. Same as Ryder can be.
You can't have the protagonist be explicitly of any religion. Not Christianity. Nor Islam. Nor Judaism. Nor Hinduism. Nor Buddhism. Nor, nor ,nor, nor anythinggggg.
In ME1 "atheist in a foxhole" was only used because almost no one knows what an "adeist" was. Shepard doesn't say anything about 'traditional Christianity'.
Ryder makes speculation about the Remnant or whatever, because they're basically just someone of deist persuasion at most. They don't follow a religion, though you're allowed to headcanon a degree of this. Most in the ME setting don't. Some do, and some have ties to religious concepts, but most don't.
Ashley does have a relatively traditional religious background, but that only means enough to focus on concepts of God and heaven. This doesn't mean Christian, though it is an acceptable presumption.
EDIT: I want to be perfectly clear here. Neither of ME protagonist have ever been explicitly Christian, and even Christians are perfectly capable of speculating otherwise anyway. If you think a Christian shouldn't even openly doubt, I think you're asking a Christian to either self-censor to a degree that religion is sadly known to do to people, or you're asking the Christian to not exist because 'doubt' is a very normal part of life.
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Post by SwobyJ on Apr 1, 2017 6:25:08 GMT
Also I want to note that the Angarans are not necessarily even 'just' organic, but have a technological aspect to them (their electrical powers) that can make them considered either more of a construct than organics, or be a potential evolution of organics. That it isn't necessarily just a matter of becoming more of a 'machine' or 'evolving to biotics', etc.
In any case, their role seems to be to blur the lines.
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Post by Scottphoto on Apr 1, 2017 6:48:56 GMT
Thats's odd, from what I recall my Ryder said they can still be a higher power than them, meaning God. Suvi and I continued our belief just fine. It is never implied however what concept of god they believe specifically, so thats its open for you to headcanon your personal one.
The Remnant are not the ones creating, its only the tech, it's still another species. I think we don't know enough details yet. We just know something eventually scared them away, what if the angaran turned on them at one point or something went wrong with that process years ago. Maybe this other race just exalted themselves and became Angaran instead. Too many variables.
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I really don't like that direction they took in the end. It's suddenly a game where you can't really put in that universe because you'd have to reject the existence of God so it's less immersive. 
no fun for me. 
