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Post by parsival on Apr 14, 2017 11:53:28 GMT
I'm pondering changing my canon ending to ME:3. It occurs to me that the lack of huge consequences for the failure of the Andromeda Initiative are partly down to the fact that the races of the Milky Way mostly seem to recover after the three standard choices - Control, Destroy or Merge. The stakes just aren't too high in the Andromeda system as a result - we know that life goes on elsewhere. However, if the beings of the Initiative are literally the last sentient survivors of the Milky Way - 200,000 souls out of hundreds of billions - suddenly the importance of the colony flourishing is incalculable. This is the one seed left out of a mighty forest - a town the size of Little Rock, Arkansas, is all that is left of the races of the old galaxy, with all the stored knowledge of entire civilisations.
I'd say that ups the ante!
I'm not saying that 'Refuse' is my favoured end - it is horrible to contemplate a long defeat and the extinguishing of almost all sentient life. 'Control' tended to be my least worst option, personally. However, my contention is that 'Refuse' actually improves the story of Mass Effect Andromeda.
I remember arguing previously (years ago on the old Bioware forums) that another choice - saving the Collector base at the end of ME:2 - actually improved the plot of ME:3 as it explained better the rise of Cerberus. This is regardless of the moral or pragmatic merits of the choice - it simply improved the story.
Just thinking about the 'Refuse' ending evokes a feeling of dread in me, but I suppose that at least one can still argue that Sheppard saved the Milky Way races, by alerting the galaxy to the Reaper threat after ME:1 and thereby accelerating the progress of the Initiative. It could even be that the Andromeda colonists could return to the Milky Way one day and defeat the Reapers after all, utilising the information stored by Liara - again, all down to Sheppard's actions.
If the Andromeda Initiative is the last hope of the Milky Way, the stakes couldn't be higher. Wouldn't you agree?
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Post by zeratul12 on Apr 14, 2017 12:01:52 GMT
This actually makes a lot of sense and makes the events of MEA weight much more heavily than if the Milky Way was saved.
It would mean that who ever went with the Initiative are the last of their races and that at any moment they could go extinct......that is a seriously chilling thought and makes settling Andromeda that much more important.
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Post by Conquer Your Dreams on Apr 14, 2017 12:02:08 GMT
Refuse will be a complete nonsense in that case, because: if Shep will say NO, and Reapers will finally WIN - even after 100-200 years - they will destroy all advanced life and at some point their will acquire information about Andromeda Initiative somehow - Javik explain how this works - and lucky Ilos will not happen in this case - so sooner or later they will send their troops to finish Milky Way survivors . If that trip take 600 years for us, it will take much shorter for them - it will be funny, after beating Archon - during party on Meridian Harbinger will show up - some fireworks and Initiative sorted.
So Shep needs to make a choice, refuse will be a death wish for Andromeda.
Just wondering - if Quarian Ark will really happen in next story DLC - what they will say about situation in Milky Way? As we know, they have quite a big delay, so they probably started AT or AFTER Reapers attacked.
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Post by parsival on Apr 14, 2017 12:13:02 GMT
Refuse will be a complete nonsense in that case, because: if Shep will say NO, and Reapers will finally WIN - even after 100-200 years - they will destroy all advanced life and at some point their will acquire information about Andromeda Initiative somehow - Javik explain how this works - and lucky Ilos will not happen in this case - so sooner or later they will send their troops to finish Milky Way survivors . If that trip take 600 years for us, it will take much shorter for them - it will be funny, after beating Archon - during party on Meridian Harbinger will show up - some fireworks and Initiative sorted. But they only seem to care about the galaxy they are in - the Milky Way. Otherwise they'd have gone off extinguishing life in other galaxies millenia ago. Not only that, but they are hardly omnipotent or flawless - they missed the Leviathons surviving, the stuff on Ios, and countless other omissions (such as Liara's buried messages). I like to believe that news of the Andromeda Initiative was deliberately concealed from Sheppard because of the Reaper tech implanted in him by Cerberus, just in case he was indoctrinated. |
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Post by cypherj on Apr 14, 2017 12:13:06 GMT
The reapers would just go to Andromeda and kill everyone, and now you've drug the Angarans into it.
Not to mention from a player perspective, there would be widespread outrage if Bioware made everyone's Shepard allow the reapers the kill everyone. I can hear the claims of Bioware invalidated the entire OT right now.
They made Andromeda this way in an attempt to avoid making one of the endings cannon.
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Post by parsival on Apr 14, 2017 12:15:58 GMT
The reapers would just go to Andromeda and kill everyone, and now you've drug the Angarans into it. Not to mention from a player perspective, there would be widespread outrage if Bioware made everyone's Shepard allow the reapers the kill everyone. I can hear the claims of Bioware invalidated the entire OT right now. They made Andromeda this way in an attempt to avoid making one of the endings cannon. I'm not saying that one of the endings should be canon. Everyone has their own canon ending, but if you make it 'refuse', then the events of ME: Andromeda gain huge significance. It's a player choice, not a Bioware one. |
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Post by cypherj on Apr 14, 2017 12:17:59 GMT
Refuse will be a complete nonsense in that case, because: if Shep will say NO, and Reapers will finally WIN - even after 100-200 years - they will destroy all advanced life and at some point their will acquire information about Andromeda Initiative somehow - Javik explain how this works - and lucky Ilos will not happen in this case - so sooner or later they will send their troops to finish Milky Way survivors . If that trip take 600 years for us, it will take much shorter for them - it will be funny, after beating Archon - during party on Meridian Harbinger will show up - some fireworks and Initiative sorted. But they only seem to care about the galaxy they are in - the Milky Way. Otherwise they'd have gone off extinguishing life in other galaxies millenia ago. Not only that, but they are hardly omnipotent or flawless - they missed the Leviathons surviving, the stuff on Ios, and countless other omissions (such as Liara's buried messages). I like to believe that news of the Andromeda Initiative was deliberately concealed from Sheppard because of the Reaper tech implanted in him by Cerberus, just in case he was indoctrinated. They care about anyone once they've reached a certain level of advancement. So you would have Milky Way species, new advanced species and remnant tech in Andromeda. Even if they didn't destroy them right away, they would watch them and go there when they reached the height of their new civilization. Remember, they would have access to all the records, they might even use the FTL telescope lol. |
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Post by lavigne on Apr 14, 2017 12:19:20 GMT
They made Andromeda this way in an attempt to avoid making one of the endings cannon. And in that regard, it works very well. Them not knowing how it all played out back in the MW just adds to the mystery and gravity of their situation in Andromeda. As far as Ryder et al are concerned, failure could well spell the end of not just the human race but all races from the MW. Heaps even more pressure to the situation and on the Pathfinder's shoulders. |
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Post by parsival on Apr 14, 2017 12:23:37 GMT
They made Andromeda this way in an attempt to avoid making one of the endings cannon. And in that regard, it works very well. Them not knowing how it all played out back in the MW just adds to the mystery and gravity of their situation in Andromeda. As far as Ryder et al are concerned, failure could well spell the end of not just the human race but all races from the MW. Heaps even more pressure to the situation and on the Pathfinder's shoulders. I agree that Ryder doesn't know what happened - he never should and he never will. The 'Refuse' ending is for the player's benefit, not the character's. Knowing that this is the last chance for the Milky Way advanced races, makes it all far more meaningful, I think. |
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Post by Conquer Your Dreams on Apr 14, 2017 12:27:54 GMT
Refuse will be a complete nonsense in that case, because: if Shep will say NO, and Reapers will finally WIN - even after 100-200 years - they will destroy all advanced life and at some point their will acquire information about Andromeda Initiative somehow - Javik explain how this works - and lucky Ilos will not happen in this case - so sooner or later they will send their troops to finish Milky Way survivors . If that trip take 600 years for us, it will take much shorter for them - it will be funny, after beating Archon - during party on Meridian Harbinger will show up - some fireworks and Initiative sorted. But they only seem to care about the galaxy they are in - the Milky Way. Otherwise they'd have gone off extinguishing life in other galaxies millenia ago. Not only that, but they are hardly omnipotent or flawless - they missed the Leviathons surviving, the stuff on Ios, and countless other omissions (such as Liara's buried messages). I like to believe that news of the Andromeda Initiative was deliberately concealed from Sheppard because of the Reaper tech implanted in him by Cerberus, just in case he was indoctrinated. Reapers would not let them survive ANYWHERE - cause they KNEW about them because of Alec - and because their time to be "preserved" has come - every 50.000 years they clean the whole galaxy just to be sure that they cannot be traced by anyone, but for AI they will make an exception ?? Seriously ? They miss Ilos cause in first attack during Prothean cycle all evidence about this place was destroyed, they miss Leviathans cause for millenia they been using their indoctrination skills to stay cover, and Liara use all the knowledge about Reapers against them... but AI doesn't even know about the attack cause they go BEFORE that. Ryder get warnings cause of Alec e-mails, but they didn't include any real info about Reapers. From the other side, too many people knew about Andromeda, for example Kallo friends who helped him to build the Tempest. Sooner or later Reapers will find out what's happended. Milky Way races been way to advanced to let them go, just like that. If Harbinger will appear Ryder could only say "what is this ?"... |
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Post by cypherj on Apr 14, 2017 12:35:37 GMT
And in that regard, it works very well. Them not knowing how it all played out back in the MW just adds to the mystery and gravity of their situation in Andromeda. As far as Ryder et al are concerned, failure could well spell the end of not just the human race but all races from the MW. Heaps even more pressure to the situation and on the Pathfinder's shoulders. I agree that Ryder doesn't know what happened - he never should and he never will. The 'Refuse' ending is for the player's benefit, not the character's. Knowing that this is the last chance for the Milky Way advanced races, makes it all far more meaningful, I think. But you would be role playing your character based off information your character doesn't have. My Sara Ryder is going through this not knowing what's going in the Milky Way, and having a "hope for the best , plan for the worst" attitude. |
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Post by zeratul12 on Apr 14, 2017 12:36:39 GMT
But they only seem to care about the galaxy they are in - the Milky Way. Otherwise they'd have gone off extinguishing life in other galaxies millenia ago. Not only that, but they are hardly omnipotent or flawless - they missed the Leviathons surviving, the stuff on Ios, and countless other omissions (such as Liara's buried messages). I like to believe that news of the Andromeda Initiative was deliberately concealed from Sheppard because of the Reaper tech implanted in him by Cerberus, just in case he was indoctrinated. Reapers would not let them survive ANYWHERE - cause they KNEW about them - every 50.000 years they clean the whole galaxy just to be sure that they cannot be traced by anyone, but for AI they will make an exception ?? Seriously ? They miss Ilos cause in first attack during Prothean cycle all evidence about this place was destroyed, they miss Leviathans cause for millenia they been using their indoctrination skills to stay cover, and Liara use all the knowledge about Reapers against them... but AI doesn't even know about the attack cause they go BEFORE that. Ryder get warnings cause of Alec e-mails, but they didn't include any real info about Reapers. From the other side, too many people knew about Andromeda, for example Kallo friends who helped him to build the Tempest. Sooner or later Reapers will find out what's happended. Milky Way races been way to advanced to let them go, just like that. If Harbinger will appear Ryder could only say "what is this ?"... Well the Reapers basically patrol the dark space around the milky way so even if something did try to enter the system it would get annihilated but the Reapers |
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brad2240
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Post by brad2240 on Apr 14, 2017 12:39:22 GMT
However, my contention is that 'Refuse' actually improves the story of Mass Effect Andromeda.
I have to disagree. It really doesn't change MEA's story, everyone in the AI still doesn't know the outcome of the Reaper war and I doubt they ever will. I think it's best that way.
As to player perception of the story, I don't think it improves anything either. Even if it did, I don't think I could live with myself knowing that I "improved" MEA by tanking everything I worked to accomplish in the OT.
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Post by Conquer Your Dreams on Apr 14, 2017 12:40:25 GMT
This is only proving my point. If they are patrolling dark space around the milky way, they will knew that Ark's left Milky Way, and definitely at least one Reaper will go after them, just to find out what's going on and observe /like Sovereign/.
No one coming in, no one going out.
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Post by KaiserShep on Apr 14, 2017 12:43:23 GMT
Refuse is still a problem in itself because we know how the whole thing goes down. Shepard makes a dumb speech about dying free, paints half of his face blue and Hologod laughs and reaps them all.
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Post by Conquer Your Dreams on Apr 14, 2017 12:50:37 GMT
Refuse is still a problem in itself because we know how the whole thing goes down. Shepard makes a dumb speech about dying free, paints half of his face blue and Hologod laughs and reaps them all. Yeah, but sometimes refusal is the only option. At the beginning of 1939r., Adolf Hitler invited Polish representative to his private house, and offered him 3 different deals just to convince him to join his side against Russia, and at some point later probably againt France and England. He was denied. War started 8 months later, and Poland was beaten. You can imagine how different things will look like today in he will accept the offer. |
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Post by kleindropper on Apr 14, 2017 12:54:09 GMT
The only endings that make Andromeda a viable scenario are refuse or bad destroy (or even pre-extended cut good destroy.) These are the only endings that would prevent Milky Way races from advancing so far technologically in 600 years that a trip to Andromeda is no big deal (using mass relay tech). If a 100,000 light year trek across the MW is nearly instantaneous with mass relays, I wouldn't think a 2.5 million light year trip would be much of a hurdle to overcome. Now let's think about Andromeda and the lack of Reapers within it: Does the scenario play out that the Andromeda synthetics (the Remnant) destroy organic life but then eventually feel "guilty" about it and begin recreating it? Is the scourge the result of a civil war among synthetics or is it from an advanced organic race attempting to wipe out the the synthetics? Makes you think twice about restarting all that Remnant tech. |
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Post by Conquer Your Dreams on Apr 14, 2017 13:02:57 GMT
If Reapers will win, AI will be in danger, cause they could go after them anytime they want. That's why any choice will do, except Refuse.
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Post by Muddy Boots on Apr 14, 2017 13:05:03 GMT
It would make the most impact if the people in Andromeda knew what happened in the Milky Way. If they all know for a fact that they're the last of their perspective races, then the stakes would truly skyrocket. And the exile/Nexus factions might have a reason to come together more cooperatively, if not complete allies.
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Post by Conquer Your Dreams on Apr 14, 2017 13:10:08 GMT
They will find out, when upgraded Shep Reaper will arrive in next DLC.
On the missing Quarian Ark we will find Tali in stasis, and after waking her up we will discover that we won the war, but Shep has become a new life form ShepReap and destroy all existing life in the Milky Way, and then he go after his ex-LI Tali, cause she didn't want to make robo-sex with him.
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Post by garrusfan1 on Apr 15, 2017 20:38:36 GMT
The reapers would just go to Andromeda and kill everyone, and now you've drug the Angarans into it. Not to mention from a player perspective, there would be widespread outrage if Bioware made everyone's Shepard allow the reapers the kill everyone. I can hear the claims of Bioware invalidated the entire OT right now. They made Andromeda this way in an attempt to avoid making one of the endings cannon. I'm not saying that one of the endings should be canon. Everyone has their own canon ending, but if you make it 'refuse', then the events of ME: Andromeda gain huge significance. It's a player choice, not a Bioware one. You should put that in the OP. It does make andromeda far more important yet if they made that cannon I would be furious. Saying you can imagine it sounds far better |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2017 22:11:09 GMT
No.
Refuse is a DLC only ending that the great majority of people who played ME3 have likely never seen. The people who post on official forums aren't representative of the average fan, they're representative of the most hardcore fans, a tiny minority of all people who played the game. Most people who completed the game probably moved on to other games after and didn't bother with DLC, and most of those that came back for the Extended Cut and other DLC probably didn't experiment and see every possible ending. I would not be surprised if the majority of Mass Effect fans do not even know the Refuse ending exists.
Even if it wasn't a DLC ending that most players probably haven't seen, it is the worst possible ending to ME3. It is effectively the equivalent of a critical mission failure screen, except with cinematics and a voice over. In Refuse Shepard is a complete and utter failure, the Reapers win the war and destroy galactic civilization, and in the process kill every character that players came to know and love. Every known species in the Milky Way, with the exception of the Yahg, go extinct within that galaxy. Hardly anyone, with the exception of the tiny minority that are Refuse fans, would want that carried over to a sequel as the canon ending to ME3. Considering the backlash Bioware received over just the perception that Shepard didn't really win in the original endings, fans would not take too kindly to confirmation of that in a sequel. It would be literally doubling down on one of the aspects of the pre-EC endings that people hated most.
Finally Refuse only exists to debunk the Indoctrination Theory. It had no other purpose beyond that.
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Post by Seera1024 on Apr 15, 2017 22:27:04 GMT
While it might make ME:A a little better, it makes the MET ending a lot worse. And I'll choose to make ME:A a little worse over MET being a lot worse. But that's just me.
My cannon will still be with MET Destroy.
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Post by kino on Apr 15, 2017 22:38:54 GMT
Doing the Refuse ending would definitely add some weight to the mission of the Andromeda Initiative and their plight. I don't know if it would be enough to make Refuse canon, though. I did a Refuse ending. For a paragade Shepard it worked pretty well.
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VanSinn
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Post by VanSinn on Apr 15, 2017 23:18:34 GMT
If you complete the Memory Trigger quest, you can hear reports that the Reapers may be on their way, and then later hear reports about Palaven and Earth being attacked by the Reapers. We, as players, know how things turned out in the Milky Way, but those in Andromeda do not. I'd say that the above spoiler already puts a very large sense of what the OP is musing about into the game, with no need to canonize any particular ending, player side or otherwise. The MET is done. Shepard's story is over. The endings to ME3, for good or ill, are the reason a sequel left the Milky Way. I personally want to continue the Andromeda story without thinking about the Milky Way again. I don't want Bioware to touch the shitshow that was the chaos of the 3+1 ending debacle of the MET. Let's move forward and not look back. |
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