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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Apr 20, 2017 21:18:06 GMT
Time travel... TIME TRAVEL!
It's not just now I realize it but I just got to this part again when you meet Dorian and... it's just as bad as I remember it. It could've been anything else like a fade-portal that showed a potential vision of the future (since that's the point) but instead we get the most dumbed down thing you can ever do in fantasy -- time travel.
I'll pretend this never happened canonically.
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Post by Heimdall on Apr 20, 2017 21:55:19 GMT
Honestly, the time travel thing doesn't bother me. Especially since they made it clear that it couldn't be done now that the Breach is closed so it won't likely happen again.
What bothers me more about the mage questline overall is that the mage-Templar war was resolved so easily.
I think we should have been running into rogue splinter groups all over the place of both mages and templars, taking over small villages, practicing blood magic, holding kangaroo courts, plotting. Really emphasize how chaotic the conflict was supposed to make the South.
Instead we got one battleground in the Hinterlands..
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Post by azarhal on Apr 20, 2017 23:48:11 GMT
I don't like In Hushed Whisper either, but because of all the gameplay/story segregation, not really the time travel part.
For example, the two party members you brought along are still alive a year later, now red lyrium zombies (despite Seekers being practically immune to the effect of red lyrium according to two different quests in the game, dwarves easily going crazy near it - Varric was already hearing the stuff in DA2 - and lets not talk about Solas) and prisoners in Redcliff castle when everyone else was killed...just so you can continue with the exact same party.
I personally consider the whole thing just a crazy Fade induced dream Alexius cooked to trap the Inquisitor that was affected by everyone around them, kinda like DAO Broken Circle Fade section (which I'm currently replaying).
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Post by lynroy on Apr 21, 2017 6:19:01 GMT
And drink.
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Apr 21, 2017 6:56:55 GMT
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Post by gervaise21 on Apr 21, 2017 10:43:11 GMT
Yeh, I've said this time and again in posts on multiple threads. The time travel plot should never have been part of the game. It breaks the lore previously established about the limits of magic and it is very poorly explained how it actually worked, particularly the idea that Alexius wound back time just in the bubble of Redcliffe so he could recruit the mages BEFORE Fiona left to give her invitation, so she denies all knowledge of the meeting and then starts rubbing her head as if perhaps she does remember. One or the other guys, either she never gave the invitation and you just turn up by accident, or she gave the invitation but Alexius turns up before you arrive and persuades her to his cause.
To my mind, it doesn't matter if they do say it was only possible because of the Breach, it is an immersion breaking anomaly. They could have dealt with the plotline far better if they had relied on conventional blood magic mind control to explain everything. Fiona was controlled by blood magic into making her decision (making a valid excuse for such stupidity), Alexius could have tried to control the Inquisitor's mind through blood magic and demons in the Fade (requiring Dorian to use his expertise to go into the Fade to aid you) and the whole business about knowing the future could have been dealt with in exactly the same way as for CoJ.
Instead we had Dorian as the Thedas Dr Who, who just need to locate his sonic screwdriver (amulet) in order to put everything back the way it was. To make it more annoying you have to take this path if you want to side with the mages. My canon game goes with Champions of the Just. It introduces Cole in a much better way, I find Dorian far more heroic in that scenario, having been knocked back because I didn't believe his whole time magic spiel (I still go to Redcliffe, my PC just finds the whole thing mind boggling) and the lore for what happens is consistent with the game world.
Our PC can even object to Dorian's explanation in the Chantry of "It's time magic, go for it". Well I didn't.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Apr 21, 2017 11:50:05 GMT
Honestly, the time travel thing doesn't bother me. Especially since they made it clear that it couldn't be done now that the Breach is closed so it won't likely happen again. What bothers me more about the mage questline overall is that the mage-Templar war was resolved so easily. I think would should have been running into rogue splinter groups all over the place of both mages and templars, taking over small villages, practicing blood magic, holding kangaroo courts, plotting. Really emphasize how chaotic the conflict was supposed to make the South. Instead we got one battleground in the Hinterlands.. This is exactly how I look at it. There is also the addition that Alexius was personally motivated (because of Felix) and was working on this even before Corypheus appeared; it simply never worked before the Breach happened, despite all the research and work he and Dorian put into it. To me, it plays out as more like, "We know it's theoretically possible to move through time, but we don't have the means to make it happen." Heck, one of the options the Inquisitor says while doing Alexius's judgement reveals the time travel, and Alexius seems shocked that it actually worked, since to him the Inquisitor and Dorian never left.
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Post by azarhal on Apr 21, 2017 12:42:47 GMT
Heck, one of the options the Inquisitor says while doing Alexius's judgement reveals the time travel, and Alexius seems shocked that it actually worked, since to him the Inquisitor and Dorian never left. I'm telling you, it was all just a dream/mind game that Alexius did, not actual time travel happened.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Apr 21, 2017 12:43:51 GMT
Heck, one of the options the Inquisitor says while doing Alexius's judgement reveals the time travel, and Alexius seems shocked that it actually worked, since to him the Inquisitor and Dorian never left. I'm telling you, it was all just a dream/mind game that Alexius did, not actual time travel happened. You can have that as your headcanon if you want. It's not mine.
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Post by Catilina on Apr 21, 2017 12:51:00 GMT
Heck, one of the options the Inquisitor says while doing Alexius's judgement reveals the time travel, and Alexius seems shocked that it actually worked, since to him the Inquisitor and Dorian never left. I'm telling you, it was all just a dream/mind game that Alexius did, not actual time travel happened. Indeed, this time travel never happened... this is the time travel's essence!
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Apr 21, 2017 12:54:58 GMT
I think the worst part is when you get out of the time-warp spell and it's just like "Ha-haaarh! Take THAT Alexius!". That's the biggest problem with this time-travel plot is that it's just a complete waste of time. I guess we learned how EEVIIL someone called "The Elder One" is but god damnit if this isn't the low-point of Dragon Age.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2017 13:10:19 GMT
On the other hand; holy shit motherfucking time travel it's awsome. It's about perspective
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Post by alanc9 on Apr 21, 2017 16:07:51 GMT
Yeh, I've said this time and again in posts on multiple threads. The time travel plot should never have been part of the game. It breaks the lore previously established about the limits of magic This is a non-issue. All the lore on magic is in-universe knowledge. A Circle Mage's understanding of the limitations of magic is exactly as reliable as his understanding of the Veil. Or Aristotle's understanding of physics.
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Post by xerrai on Apr 21, 2017 16:45:30 GMT
I have very little patience when it comes to time-travel plots. There are so many ways it could go wrong, and so many ways it could end up being just a contrived way of making a plot seem cool. And Dragon Age's attempt at a time-travel plot left much to be desired.
Companions were relatively unaffected by the red lyrium, the entire time thing seemed to only affect Redcliffe even though we know Fiona was presumably outside that bubble when she tried to contact the Inquisition--only for Fiona herself to seem susceptible to the time magic by the time we try to meet her. So the actual scope of time manipulation is sketchy to say the least. I will give them props though for giving a convincing reason for why time travel was possible in this particular instance though (breach allowing time to be more malleable).
The only good thing that came out of the plot was the theories that players came up with afterwards. Some of the interesting ones included the theory that elves were once immortal because a world without the veil is less affected by time permanence. Another was how even we saw a future, that future was merely a possible reality perpetuated by spirits, with several lore references to how spirits view times differently than others, and how Cole has made several references to how spirits can see "what can be". Like a dream that doubled as a premonition or a prophesy. Another one went Game theory on it and said that the only reality is a dream reality and the entire dragon age series is merely one particular form of these dream-realities, where every possible world state exists because there are multiple dream realities.
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Post by gervaise21 on Apr 21, 2017 19:31:41 GMT
Thats the thing though, the players had to come up with the decent explanation of why it occurred or was possible. That should have been the role of the writers. I totally get that time does not operate in the Fade in the same way as it does in the real world. If they had had Alexius throwing us into the Fade, where we experienced the whole thing and then re-emerged only moments after we left, that would have been fine, but that is not how it was explained.
Take the fact that Alexius was meant to be able to alter the flow of time in Redcliffe but nowhere else. After we disappeared from the throne room, Alexius apparently continued trying to rewind time to before the Breach for the next twelve months until we pop up again. Each time he managed to get back to the point just after the Breach was created but no further. But surely that meant each time he was resetting the time period in Redcliffe to before we arrived to meet him? So he was now travelling on a completely different time line to the one where the Inquisitor disappeared. In that time line the Inquisitor could have decided not to meet him and go to the Templars instead. Or taken a different set of companions with them. I don't know, may be that is why we moved in space as well as in time because in the actual time line we formed a part of, the action took place in his dungeon. Except that still wouldn't work because in every time line he keeps on winding back time. It is a wonder we ever get to the future at all.
This apparent paradox is just hand waved away as with everything else to do with the time travel.
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Apr 21, 2017 20:02:58 GMT
Any time you resort to time travel when it isn't already part of your fictional premise you're copping out. I can't believe David Gaider didn't stop this from happening.
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Post by gervaise21 on Apr 21, 2017 20:22:02 GMT
Well given that Dorian was his "baby" so to speak, I rather suspect that David Gaider was all in favour of it, seeing us how is it the main way he is introduced to the game and the focus is on him throughout. Also the sequence was used to show case the game, which also suggests that the team were rather proud of it.
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Post by oyabun on Apr 22, 2017 0:04:12 GMT
Honestly, the time travel thing doesn't bother me. Especially since they made it clear that it couldn't be done now that the Breach is closed so it won't likely happen again. What bothers me more about the mage questline overall is that the mage-Templar war was resolved so easily. I think we should have been running into rogue splinter groups all over the place of both mages and templars, taking over small villages, practicing blood magic, holding kangaroo courts, plotting. Really emphasize how chaotic the conflict was supposed to make the South. Instead we got one battleground in the Hinterlands.. Who's to say it won't happen again? This was an experiment made by Alexius,if they improve the spell they may even be able to create time travel without the need of the breach or they could create small breaches just to cast the spell.Afterall it takes nothing to create tears in the veil for Tevinter mages.
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Apr 28, 2017 2:01:58 GMT
Well given that Dorian was his "baby" so to speak, I rather suspect that David Gaider was all in favour of it, seeing us how is it the main way he is introduced to the game and the focus is on him throughout. Also the sequence was used to show case the game, which also suggests that the team were rather proud of it. DG did leave after this game so it could be a sign he was already running out of passion for DA but he did talk at a panel in 2013 or 2014 about how much he wanted a certain vision for how the series should end already and he really hoped he could make the team retain that vision at all times. But it wasn't him who wrote this story. Mary Kirby took care of the In Hushed Whispers Quest so she probably decided to do Time Travel or maybe it was a Lead Writer's note saying "here you show time travel" but I suspect it was Mary because she tends to fall into the traps of writing bad plot-devices into the story like the Red Lyrium of Varric's plotline in DA2 that Meredith suddenly had. David was probably in on it too because I assume he wrote most of Act 2 in DA2 as well, so *shrug*. Speaking of Dorian however, that's at least one thing that the quest doesn't fail. The characters are still good it's just the plot which is surprisingly dumbed down for Dragon Age.
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Post by Catilina on Apr 28, 2017 8:56:03 GMT
Well given that Dorian was his "baby" so to speak, I rather suspect that David Gaider was all in favour of it, seeing us how is it the main way he is introduced to the game and the focus is on him throughout. Also the sequence was used to show case the game, which also suggests that the team were rather proud of it. DG did leave after this game so it could be a sign he was already running out of passion for DA but he did talk at a panel in 2013 or 2014 about how much he wanted a certain vision for how the series should end already and he really hoped he could make the team retain that vision at all times. But it wasn't him who wrote this story. Mary Kirby took care of the In Hushed Whispers Quest so she probably decided to do Time Travel or maybe it was a Lead Writer's note saying "here you show time travel" but I suspect it was Mary because she tends to fall into the traps of writing bad plot-devices into the story like the Red Lyrium of Varric's plotline in DA2 that Meredith suddenly had. David was probably in on it too because I assume he wrote most of Act 2 in DA2 as well, so *shrug*. Speaking of Dorian however, that's at least one thing that the quest doesn't fail. The characters are still good it's just the plot which is surprisingly dumbed down for Dragon Age. I liked Meredith's fate, and I don't think, that this was "sudden". (But I'm curious, what happened to the smith, who created her sword.)
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2017 13:50:41 GMT
Ah, I love this quest. It gave me the only way of getting through the Inquisition. Focus on Dorian. Just focus on Dorian... Ignore everything else.
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Post by gervaise21 on Apr 28, 2017 20:01:22 GMT
Dorian doesn't "need" that quest though to be a great character. As I've said above, it could just as easily have been Dorian entering the Fade to rescue you from a blood magic attack. He could still have been the hero of the quest using his undoubted mage skills. Everything could have pretty much been the same, except it wouldn't have involved time travel and throwing up all the problems that it did with explaining how it could possibly work.
You can simply ignore the ridiculousness of the premise but it does rather spoil the immersion. Mind you, I suppose you could say the same of 'Into the Abyss' and physically walking in the Fade with all your companions simply because you have a magical bauble in your hand, or Corypheus being suddenly able to levitate whole mountains with his blight magic.
What I loved about Dragon Age is that the setting had an internal consistency. There were limitations on what mages could do and this wasn't just because of the southern Chantry's attitude to magic as Tevinter had been pushing the boundaries of magic for hundreds of years, so they knew what was and wasn't possible. Then suddenly everything we had been told concerning the limitations of magic in Thedas was suddenly thrown out of the window because of the discovery of long hidden elven artefacts (I'm thinking that amulet that Alexius was using wasn't something he made himself).
The Limits of Magic given in WoT were, so far as I was aware, the rules set out by the writers and not meant to be something that could be hand waved away. It says the following: "Like mages, enchanted items are unable to break the rules of common magic. Enchanted items cannot resurrect the dead or physically enter the Fade." Now it would seem that we can forget these rules, so long as we can find some ancient elven artefact. In fact DG was breaking the rules as far back as his comic series, since the Magellan was meant to be some sort of magical artefact that Aurelius Titus had discovered that could make Thedas-wide effects once powered up by someone's "special" blood. So who knows what they will come up with next.
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Apr 28, 2017 22:12:39 GMT
DG did leave after this game so it could be a sign he was already running out of passion for DA but he did talk at a panel in 2013 or 2014 about how much he wanted a certain vision for how the series should end already and he really hoped he could make the team retain that vision at all times. But it wasn't him who wrote this story. Mary Kirby took care of the In Hushed Whispers Quest so she probably decided to do Time Travel or maybe it was a Lead Writer's note saying "here you show time travel" but I suspect it was Mary because she tends to fall into the traps of writing bad plot-devices into the story like the Red Lyrium of Varric's plotline in DA2 that Meredith suddenly had. David was probably in on it too because I assume he wrote most of Act 2 in DA2 as well, so *shrug*. Speaking of Dorian however, that's at least one thing that the quest doesn't fail. The characters are still good it's just the plot which is surprisingly dumbed down for Dragon Age. I liked Meredith's fate, and I don't think, that this was "sudden". (But I'm curious, what happened to the smith, who created her sword.) Well it fits the scenario but it has no applicability. The most resonant moments in the storytelling of any game or story I always find is when it's relatable or has some feature you can compare to how humans are in reality. They had a super interesting thing going on with her and orsino being the monolithic figures to act like authorities in the mages and templars issue but then they break all of that when it turns out that Meredith had been as harsh as she was all along because Varric found a piece of Red Lyrium that his brother stole and then sold to Meredith as a sword which made her insane because arbitrary red lyrium. You can't relate to this change of her character and the conflict that seemed real because mages are dangerous and their worst kin need to be controlled, but whereas you saw Meredith as ruling too harshly before out of fear or cruelty you end up finding it all stupid because somehow a plot-device on her back made her do it and not actual human emotions or causality. Red Lyrium is a cop-out in every single place it appears, except for when they made good use of it like Samson who knew its effects but made himself immune to it and then used it to enslave Templars. That's interesting because Samson has human qualities. Meredith had human emotions until you found out she didn't due to the slab of Red Lyrium that just made her "insane". I had the same feeling in Witcher 3 when the excellent and intricate political conflicts from Witcher 2 were reduced to "insanity" for no reason. A new king rose to power in Witcher 2 and banished all mages to persecution and death for conspiring against the monarchy. That was because he was a bigot and wanted revenge and he was genocidal. In Witcher 3 he was "insane" because that's how the writers suddenly interpreted it or maybe just copped out, but suddenly King Radovid went from a radical and ruthless... wrong ruler to a stupid and idiotic and mad one... for no reason and it made the entire political backdrop of Witcher 3 feel super reductive. That's how I felt about Dragon Age 2's entire plot too when Meredith turned out to be "insane".
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Post by Catilina on Apr 28, 2017 22:50:21 GMT
I liked Meredith's fate, and I don't think, that this was "sudden". (But I'm curious, what happened to the smith, who created her sword.) Well it fits the scenario but it has no applicability. The most resonant moments in the storytelling of any game or story I always find is when it's relatable or has some feature you can compare to how humans are in reality. They had a super interesting thing going on with her and orsino being the monolithic figures to act like authorities in the mages and templars issue but then they break all of that when it turns out that Meredith had been as harsh as she was all along because Varric found a piece of Red Lyrium that his brother stole and then sold to Meredith as a sword which made her insane because arbitrary red lyrium. You can't relate to this change of her character and the conflict that seemed real because mages are dangerous and their worst kin need to be controlled, but whereas you saw Meredith as ruling too harshly before out of fear or cruelty you end up finding it all stupid because somehow a plot-device on her back made her do it and not actual human emotions or causality.
Red Lyrium is a cop-out in every single place it appears, except for when they made good use of it like Samson who knew its effects but made himself immune to it and then used it to enslave Templars. That's interesting because Samson has human qualities. Meredith had human emotions until you found out she didn't due to the slab of Red Lyrium that just made her "insane".
I had the same feeling in Witcher 3 when the excellent and intricate political conflicts from Witcher 2 were reduced to "insanity" for no reason. A new king rose to power in Witcher 2 and banished all mages to persecution and death for conspiring against the monarchy. That was because he was a bigot and wanted revenge and he was genocidal. In Witcher 3 he was "insane" because that's how the writers suddenly interpreted it or maybe just copped out, but suddenly King Radovid went from a radical and ruthless... wrong ruler to a stupid and idiotic and mad one... for no reason and it made the entire political backdrop of Witcher 3 feel super reductive. That's how I felt about Dragon Age 2's entire plot too when Meredith turned out to be "insane". She didn't lost her emotions, these only intensified. Meredith was paranoid and cruel even before red lyrium. Her paranoia was the reason, why she could not resist the temptation and her foolish and overweening faith in her own willpower made her confident, that she will be able to handle this magical power. This is really human, and so similar than her despised blood mages' reasons. She died as an Abomination. Very ironic. But she was really strong, she was able to withstand the total madness for a long time. Until the end, she behaved as if she was almost normal.
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Apr 29, 2017 0:11:50 GMT
Yes but it's a terrible reveal. The Red Lyrium is just a completely hamfisted plot device. Think about it for a second. The entire story revolves around the ideological conflict about mages and templars where one is the oppressive force of order and the other is the dangerous but not always guilty mages and you destroy the entire thesis of DA2 by telling me that the reason the order was oppressive was because of an external force that came from the underground that manipulated Meredith into being more cruel than she would've normally been. All reason is being reduced because of an arbitrary evil that has no root in reality. The metaphor for mages and templars as David Gaider always put it was gun control. So, imagine you have tight gun control that has started to imprison a fraction of the population for owning guns unfairly but it's partly justfied due to increasing amounts of gun violence in the last couple of years due to an anarchistic movement and some terrorist rings. The law is pushing too hard and thousands of innocent people are being interrogated and sent to jail but it turns out that the president was being manipulated by alien radiowaves to overreact to the situation.
I mean, it's just silly.
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