Gileadan
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Agent 46
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Post by Gileadan on Feb 4, 2018 10:12:50 GMT
2. Keep in mind that DAI had troubled development too, given that it was the first game of its kind on a new engine and was developed for 5 platforms, which also resulted with limitations stemming from old-gen. Still, the game may have not been delayed 'for more polish', but that additional year resulted in 3 additional races for PC, among other story-related things. So basically, it was delayed to gain more significant features that have also resulted in way more replayability. All in all, not a bad trade-off for a delay and if current delay means more features in Anthem, I don't think people would complain. You're right, of course - I didn't mean to accuse them of outright incompetence for DAI's delay. I imagine a lot of it came from having to figure out how to make a shooter engine run a RPG, and that they used that delay to add playable races is certainly to their credit and was well done. It's just that "delay" tends to mean "technical issues" with them, not "additional polish". I would welcome a more open communication in such aspects, I understand that technical problems happen and would rather have the devs take their time to fix them instead of delivering a flawed product on release... but I suppose "open communication" and "publisher with shareholders" don't go that well together.
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Feb 4, 2018 16:39:41 GMT
True, but which camp do you think has the bigger consensus at this moment? The people that apologize for BioWare and accept something as "good enough" or great only because they have goodwill for the company or the remaining people that find BioWare have all but fallen off the map and otherwise just disappointed their expectations. It's cool that truthful BioWare fans are still happy with the recent output. I certainly wish I was part of it, I just think arguing for BioWare's recent games comes across as unconvincing for why it should be strange or unfair when people seem to have an anti-BioWare bias these days when you consider that it was the body of work they made that caused the reactions that led to this point. We all saw the same games. Some people just have bigger expectations which isn't unreasnoable when ME2 and DA:O were as good as they were.
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Post by SofaJockey on Feb 4, 2018 17:20:43 GMT
True, but which camp do you think has the bigger consensus at this moment? The people that apologize for BioWare and accept something as "good enough" or great only because they have goodwill for the company or the remaining people that find BioWare have all but fallen off the map and otherwise just disappointed their expectations. It's cool that truthful BioWare fans are still happy with the recent output. I certainly wish I was part of it, I just think arguing for BioWare's recent games comes across as unconvincing for why it should be strange or unfair when people seem to have an anti-BioWare bias these days when you consider that it was the body of work they made that caused the reactions that led to this point. We all saw the same games. Some people just have bigger expectations which isn't unreasnoable when ME2 and DA:O were as good as they were. Arguing for who has the consensus is pretty pointless. ME3 and DAI were successful games, MEA less so. You don't have to bring others down to vindicate your perspective. We've shared our views, great, shall we move on?
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Feb 4, 2018 18:36:55 GMT
True, but which camp do you think has the bigger consensus at this moment? The people that apologize for BioWare and accept something as "good enough" or great only because they have goodwill for the company or the remaining people that find BioWare have all but fallen off the map and otherwise just disappointed their expectations. A pox on both their houses, says I. I have no patience for apologists that think Bioware can do no wrong -- sometimes Bioware is it's own worst enemy. And, I have even less patience for the "average gamers" that are still raging about their disappointments. FFS, get over it already. Consensus, conshmensus. I've topped 10'd games that most other people have hated, and I've hated games that most other people loved. What I don't do is go on fan boards and push either case beyond constructive purpose or reason. It's pointless and just serves to annoy people who no doubt already have a surfeit of unavoidable annoyance in their lives already.
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Feb 4, 2018 19:23:58 GMT
True, but which camp do you think has the bigger consensus at this moment? The people that apologize for BioWare and accept something as "good enough" or great only because they have goodwill for the company or the remaining people that find BioWare have all but fallen off the map and otherwise just disappointed their expectations. A pox on both their houses, says I. I have no patience for apologists that think Bioware can do no wrong -- sometimes Bioware is it's own worst enemy. And, I have even less patience for the "average gamers" that are still raging about their disappointments. FFS, get over it already. Consensus, conshmensus. I've topped 10'd games that most other people have hated, and I've hated games that most other people loved. What I don't do is go on fan boards and push either case beyond constructive purpose or reason. It's pointless and just serves to annoy people who no doubt already have a surfeit of unavoidable annoyance in their lives already. It's fine either way. I'm not here to convince anyone to think differently than they do, but I just find the notion of it somehow being weird or unfair that BioWare, delaying a game is making ppl go "Oh noes!" whereas it won't for other big beloved studios, disingenous, like, even if you love what BioWare's been doing personally as of late you gotta know why this is happening. I have to comment on that.
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Post by rras1994 on Feb 4, 2018 19:41:02 GMT
A pox on both their houses, says I. I have no patience for apologists that think Bioware can do no wrong -- sometimes Bioware is it's own worst enemy. And, I have even less patience for the "average gamers" that are still raging about their disappointments. FFS, get over it already. Consensus, conshmensus. I've topped 10'd games that most other people have hated, and I've hated games that most other people loved. What I don't do is go on fan boards and push either case beyond constructive purpose or reason. It's pointless and just serves to annoy people who no doubt already have a surfeit of unavoidable annoyance in their lives already. It's fine either way. I'm not here to convince anyone to think differently than they do, but I just find the notion of it somehow being weird or unfair that BioWare, delaying a game is making ppl go "Oh noes!" whereas it won't for other big beloved studios, disingenous, like, even if you love what BioWare's been doing personally as of late you gotta know why this is happening. I have to comment on that. It's not as if the other companies delaying havn't had a lot of bad press as well recently, I'm more surprised that there isn't more noise about CDPR with Cyberpunk 2077 and Rockstar with Red Dead Redemption 2 as they've had bad press that would normally make a much bigger splash. But maybe I shouldn't be surprised, as a lot of their bad press has been about how they treat their employees and it seems a lot of gamers are willingly to let that slide.
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Feb 4, 2018 20:04:38 GMT
I think the difference is CDPR thus far has not kowtowed to the dumb trends of AAA enough and even when they have like Witcher 3 going all Skyrim-like with its marketing, they blew everyone away with how well they realized their vision. BioWare has been attempting the open-world ideas as well but they're terrible at it. Andromeda was an improvement over DAI but was still just mimicing Witcher 3 and then still doing the boring fetch-quest design for a majority of quests and then it was super broken where it mattered, in the story and writing didn't live up to the trilogy either. I mean, even ME3 was a disappointment to many people and Andromeda couldn't even pass that bar. Whereas a few aspects of Witcher 3 disappointed me it was overall super impressive. I appreciate BioWare's continued efforts with customization but even that isn't too flattering when it creates a lot of broken-looking choreography in cutscenes, people wearing armor when they kinda shouldn't or my Inquisitor holding their staff like a Sword etc.
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Post by Superhik on Feb 5, 2018 4:05:19 GMT
It's fine either way. I'm not here to convince anyone to think differently than they do, but I just find the notion of it somehow being weird or unfair that BioWare, delaying a game is making ppl go "Oh noes!" whereas it won't for other big beloved studios, disingenous, like, even if you love what BioWare's been doing personally as of late you gotta know why this is happening. I have to comment on that. It's not as if the other companies delaying havn't had a lot of bad press as well recently, I'm more surprised that there isn't more noise about CDPR with Cyberpunk 2077 and Rockstar with Red Dead Redemption 2 as they've had bad press that would normally make a much bigger splash. But maybe I shouldn't be surprised, as a lot of their bad press has been about how they treat their employees and it seems a lot of gamers are willingly to let that slide. There wasn't any "bad press", glass door "reviews" are unreliable, unverifiable and not taken seriously, especially coming in small samples. Here is some criticism on Bioware: Crunch lasts between 6 months to over a year. Many people work 90+ hours a week. Unless you were hired when the company was founded there is zero chance for advancement. Lots of weird politics, nepotism and unfathomable decision making. Management is clueless about building anyone's careers but their own. Production always seems like its their first project ever. Get in, get a credit and get out. Innovation is rejected from a place of jealousy and insecurity as the old guard (the 1%) are easily threatened … It's as if they don't realize their audience is gamers, and that's a fail right there. I don't know how many times I walked from a meeting shaking my head in complete confusion as to why rational common sense ideas were thrown out in favor of what the marketing head thought was best. EA has taken over and everything is about the finances now unfortunately. Seems like much of the soul of the company as a whole has left Crunch - all of the crunch. Every project I've worked on has resulted in 80 - 100 hour weeks for at least 6 months.And there were direct interviews from former employees who talked about reasons they left. CDPR, Rockstar, and others...have had delays and result were worth it, judging by player reception/commercial success. People have reason for scepticism, last few years for Bioware could've gone a lot better.
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Post by melbella on Feb 5, 2018 4:13:33 GMT
Source? Quotes are a lot more meaningful when attributed to an actual person.
Management being clueless is, unfortunately, not a problem exclusive to Bioware. Nor is sales promising the moon and expecting production to deliver, regardless of a situation's reality.
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Post by slimgrin727 on Feb 5, 2018 4:52:10 GMT
Source? Quotes are a lot more meaningful when attributed to an actual person. Management being clueless is, unfortunately, not a problem exclusive to Bioware. Nor is sales promising the moon and expecting production to deliver, regardless of a situation's reality. They (CDPR) have around 400-500 employees between GOG and the dev team. I really would not take glass door too seriously.
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Post by melbella on Feb 5, 2018 4:55:29 GMT
Who/what is "glass door"? I was asking for the source of the quote listed above. Is that it? Doesn't tell me much if it is.
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Agent 46
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Gileadan on Feb 5, 2018 7:25:52 GMT
Who/what is "glass door"? I was asking for the source of the quote listed above. Is that it? Doesn't tell me much if it is. Glassdoor is a website where employees post reviews of the companies they work/worked at. Reviews are posted anonymously, making them hard to verify. You may only able to read a small amount of reviews before the site requires you to sign up.
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Post by rras1994 on Feb 5, 2018 12:43:32 GMT
Who/what is "glass door"? I was asking for the source of the quote listed above. Is that it? Doesn't tell me much if it is. Glassdoor is a website where employees post reviews of the companies they work/worked at. Reviews are posted anonymously, making them hard to verify. You may only able to read a small amount of reviews before the site requires you to sign up. Of course that's ignoring that CDPR when addressing the Glassdoor reviews basically admitted it was true and that if you don't like the heat get out of the kitchen. And other people have referred to CDPR as a crunch all the time studio like Ask a Game Dev: link
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Post by Gileadan on Feb 5, 2018 13:07:49 GMT
Glassdoor is a website where employees post reviews of the companies they work/worked at. Reviews are posted anonymously, making them hard to verify. You may only able to read a small amount of reviews before the site requires you to sign up. Of course that's ignoring that CDPR when addressing the Glassdoor reviews basically admitted it was true and that if you don't like the heat get out of the kitchen. And other people have referred to CDPR as a crunch all the time studio like Ask a Game Dev: linkI know what CDPR said, I was referring to glassdoor in general. We knew that CDPR was a crunch studio years before TW3 was released, they basically said so themselves in one of their hidden 1-frame trailer messages. It's five year old news, and now some people act like Sherlock Holmes.
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Post by rras1994 on Feb 5, 2018 13:35:25 GMT
Of course that's ignoring that CDPR when addressing the Glassdoor reviews basically admitted it was true and that if you don't like the heat get out of the kitchen. And other people have referred to CDPR as a crunch all the time studio like Ask a Game Dev: linkI know what CDPR said, I was referring to glassdoor in general. We knew that CDPR was a crunch studio years before TW3 was released, they basically said so themselves in one of their hidden 1-frame trailer messages. It's five year old news, and now some people act like Sherlock Holmes. People still deny that it is a crunch studio, you can see it in this thread. Even with Glassdoor reviews and CDPR's statement, I still see people denying it. Not really targeting your comment, just that my original comment didn't mention Glassdoor at all, and the bad press was actually the CDPR statement which is far more damning. Yet people kept replying to my comment that "You can't trust Glassdoors" which I hadn't actually mentioned.
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Post by Gileadan on Feb 5, 2018 13:50:55 GMT
I know what CDPR said, I was referring to glassdoor in general. We knew that CDPR was a crunch studio years before TW3 was released, they basically said so themselves in one of their hidden 1-frame trailer messages. It's five year old news, and now some people act like Sherlock Holmes. People still deny that it is a crunch studio, you can see it in this thread. Even with Glassdoor reviews and CDPR's statement, I still see people denying it. Not really targeting your comment, just that my original comment didn't mention Glassdoor at all, and the bad press was actually the CDPR statement which is far more damning. Yet people kept replying to my comment that "You can't trust Glassdoors" which I hadn't actually mentioned. Ah, I get it, I wasn't reading all the stuff above, just tried answer melbella's question. I don't like that they're a crunch studio, that's just no way to treat employees. But it became clear about two years before the release of TW3, when they did those one-frame hidden messages in their trailers you could only read by stopping playback at just the right instant. One message said (this is all my paraphrasing but I trust my memory on this) "Please say something nice about this trailer and that we're going in the right direction with this game, we're worked to the bone here". I work in development myself (not games though), so I'm fairly confident that I know crunch when I see it.
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Post by Superhik on Feb 5, 2018 14:07:14 GMT
I know what CDPR said, I was referring to glassdoor in general. We knew that CDPR was a crunch studio years before TW3 was released, they basically said so themselves in one of their hidden 1-frame trailer messages. It's five year old news, and now some people act like Sherlock Holmes. People still deny that it is a crunch studio, you can see it in this thread. Even with Glassdoor reviews and CDPR's statement, I still see people denying it. Not really targeting your comment, just that my original comment didn't mention Glassdoor at all, and the bad press was actually the CDPR statement which is far more damning. Yet people kept replying to my comment that "You can't trust Glassdoors" which I hadn't actually mentioned. Nearly every AAA studio ( and many smaller ones) goes through "crunch", ( unless you're Blizzard), this so far has been unavoidable. CDPR was being honest there and admitting they are working on improving their state of productions. Massive competition, no unions, game pricing, and how video games in general are designed are main causes of this: www.gameinformer.com/b/features/archive/2018/01/17/crunch-the-video-game-industrys-notorious-labor-problem.aspx?PostPageIndex=1&PageIndex=2Few years back, I remember reading an interview with ex BW devs who were forming new indie studio: Burton, Ledden, etc...in nutshell, they had to choose between career or their health. And srs, throwing mud on someone else is such a silly knee jerk reaction, more when you seem to be playing blind with same issues "elsewhere".
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Post by rras1994 on Feb 5, 2018 14:16:28 GMT
People still deny that it is a crunch studio, you can see it in this thread. Even with Glassdoor reviews and CDPR's statement, I still see people denying it. Not really targeting your comment, just that my original comment didn't mention Glassdoor at all, and the bad press was actually the CDPR statement which is far more damning. Yet people kept replying to my comment that "You can't trust Glassdoors" which I hadn't actually mentioned. Nearly every AAA studio ( and many smaller ones) goes through "crunch", ( unless you're Blizzard), this so far has been unavoidable. CDPR was being honest there and admitting they are working on improving their state of productions. Massive competition, no unions, game pricing, and how video games in general are designed are main causes of this: www.gameinformer.com/b/features/archive/2018/01/17/crunch-the-video-game-industrys-notorious-labor-problem.aspx?PostPageIndex=1&PageIndex=2Few years back, I remember reading an interview with ex BW devs who were forming new indie studio: Burton, Ledden, etc...in nutshell, they had to choose between career or their health. And srs, throwing mud on someone else is such a silly knee jerk reaction, more when you seem to be playing blind with same issues "elsewhere". There's a difference between normal crunch which is still a major problem across the industry and crunch studio. Normal Crunch normally occurs at the end of a project to get it out the door , it can be for a significant period like 6 months or so. It does have a horrible impact on the health of the workers as well as making employees more likely to leave which is way you've seen the big publishers in recent years like EA, Blizzard and Ubisoft, try to minimise or eliminate crunch at all. Then you get studios like CDPR which are studios that crunch all the time, it's their normal part of development. Which is why it's a much bigger issue. And they never talked about trying to improve conditions in their PR statement. This is what they said: That's not a company trying to change it's practices.
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Post by Hrungr on Feb 5, 2018 19:13:29 GMT
Emily (aka Domino) pentapod"Almost every RPG has a corpse-touching mechanic" "Could we maybe call it something other than corpse-touching?" "Grave robbing?" "But usually you're the one who just killed them." "Murder-stealing?" #overheardintheoffice #gamedev [HASH]ANT
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Post by midnight tea on Feb 5, 2018 19:53:30 GMT
" Almost every RPG has a corpse-touching mechanic" Heyyyyyy....
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Post by Hrungr on Feb 5, 2018 19:58:48 GMT
" Almost every RPG has a corpse-touching mechanic" Heyyyyyy.... The followup was pretty good too... Lord Dreamo @dreamo84Touching a corpse is different than robbing lol 😂 Emily (aka Domino) pentapodWell, not from a game dev point of view - it's just a player-click mechanic with some story applied 😄 [hash]ANT
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Post by melbella on Feb 5, 2018 20:24:37 GMT
If they implement auto-loot, no corpse-touching required.
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Post by Superhik on Feb 6, 2018 3:47:48 GMT
Nearly every AAA studio ( and many smaller ones) goes through "crunch", ( unless you're Blizzard), this so far has been unavoidable. CDPR was being honest there and admitting they are working on improving their state of productions. Massive competition, no unions, game pricing, and how video games in general are designed are main causes of this: www.gameinformer.com/b/features/archive/2018/01/17/crunch-the-video-game-industrys-notorious-labor-problem.aspx?PostPageIndex=1&PageIndex=2Few years back, I remember reading an interview with ex BW devs who were forming new indie studio: Burton, Ledden, etc...in nutshell, they had to choose between career or their health. And srs, throwing mud on someone else is such a silly knee jerk reaction, more when you seem to be playing blind with same issues "elsewhere". There's a difference between normal crunch which is still a major problem across the industry and crunch studio. Normal Crunch normally occurs at the end of a project to get it out the door , it can be for a significant period like 6 months or so. It does have a horrible impact on the health of the workers as well as making employees more likely to leave which is way you've seen the big publishers in recent years like EA, Blizzard and Ubisoft, try to minimise or eliminate crunch at all. Then you get studios like CDPR which are studios that crunch all the time, it's their normal part of development. Which is why it's a much bigger issue. And they never talked about trying to improve conditions in their PR statement. This is what they said: That's not a company trying to change it's practices. You're dodging the question...give me any verifiable report on CDPR being a "crunch studio" ( and the whole idea is absurd, not even Naughty Dog works all the time in overdrive..."Crunch studio" is complete nonsense: crunch happens after failing/or afraid you will not meet the deadline, which happens at mid project development, at earliest ). And you seem to be willfully ignoring Bioware's own history, coming from testimonies of actual former employees, and how it went with recent projects ...Dragon Age II, Mass Effect III, let's not even get into how it went with Andromeda: all were delivered under massive crunch for it's employees. As for that statement, is reads more closely that they are aware of the problems in AAA development and working to improve them (instead of butting their heads in the sand ). And that for their goals, they expect much from their people and they have a more director centric approach ( which is very common for Japanese studios) Or would you prefer EA's notorious Everything is fine and lovely PR...until, out of the blue, you learn of conditions ( it's ironic that what brought wider attention to crunch and conditions in game development is exactly report on EA: "an EA spouse"), or how they've decided to kill the studio. EA would never make that kind of statement ( you see, it goes poorly for company's image, investors and stock value): take a look at that "explanation" they gave for cancelling Henning's Star Wars project. Or as well you somehow miss the part of EA winning several "awards" for worst company?
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Heimdall
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Post by Heimdall on Feb 6, 2018 12:52:31 GMT
Actually I read a little while ago that EA has very high employee satisfaction ratings and provides a lot of benefits to their workers.
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