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Post by kheld on May 20, 2017 10:34:16 GMT
Now that I have your attention with the clickbait thread title....
After a certain level in the game, you find out a fact about the origins on the Angara.
The fact that they were bio-engineered by the Jaardan.
Later on, Suvi tells you what a horrible thing it was, and Ryders options were limited to;
1) Yes its bad.
2) Yes its bad.
I rolled my eyes a bit at another example of SJW preaching & carried on with the game.
Lets make it clear though - slavery is bad when you apply it to earth. Treating a living, breathing, self aware person as a thing is bad, especially when that person doesnt want to be a slave.
But then I started to think about it, and I got annoyed at the blinkered approach to an interesting question.
How can we have the arrogance to apply our beliefs to a race far more advanced than us, about which we know practically nothing? Maybe the Jaardan were a right bunch of evil buzztards & created a sentient, self aware race that they oppressed as organic slaves, but maybe they didnt.
What technogically advanced race is going to be stupid enough to create untold millions of self aware, sentient beings who might rebel & overthrow them?
What if it went like this. The engineers go to the Jaardan supreme leader & say "Boss, we have found a way to create organic tools. No Jaardan will ever have to work again, risk their lives in war, do the dishes or laundry, will you authorise it?"
If I was the leader id say "Bloody hell, I will be the most popular leader in history, my people will love me for ever". Then I would say "What if the slaves overthrow me & my people you dumb engineers?"
The engineers say "Sorted boss, the slaves will be genetically programmed to love their jobs & serve us. It will actually make them happy & content". "Do it!" I would reply.
We wont know why the current day Angara have free will, maybe the engineers made a mistake, or the Jardaan set them free, or they simply evolved.
But if an organic being is created by another being & has no concept of freedom & loves its role in life, is it our place to criticize said creators?
If we create AI's to serve us, & we program them like the Jaardan programmed the Angara, are the AI's slaves? Are WE slavemasters?
An interesting moral quandary, totally avoided in ME:A, because we are forced to say "Slavery is BAD, m'kay".
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Post by LogicGunn on May 20, 2017 12:03:30 GMT
Ryder is a human with human and Milky Way values. It's not strange for her to react that way at all.
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Post by toomanyclouds on May 20, 2017 12:21:38 GMT
Dude, this has nothing to do with SJWs. Even a spoopy SJW skeleton would probably manage to happen upon the variation answer "What we do with SAM is not so dissimilar, does that make us bad people as well?"; in fact, since the general idea is that they are more sensitive to even slight injustices done to others, they would be more likely to say that. People gotta stop using that word as shorthand for "things I don't like in the writing", it's losing all the little meaning it ever had.
It's quite often that Ryder's answers really just change in tone, not in meaning, so this is only one more instance in which this has happened. They either ran up against a hard deadline and had to cut answers that would lead to differing reactions from the NPCs (more work, more VA time), or they decided from the start that the roleplaying of Ryder was supposed to be limited and that they are a more defined character for whom, among other set parameters, slavery is unacceptable. I agree it would be more interesting if you could at least discuss the possible the motives of the Jardaan, but I think they were just trying to play their cards close to their chest with the Jardaan in general so it would be more effective sequelbait.
(I'd also recommend Huxley's "Brave New World" if you're interested in works concerning the idea of subjugating people for their own good, although maybe you've read it already, since it's a popular high school class book.)
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Post by duskwanderer on May 20, 2017 19:16:15 GMT
I don't consider it SJW preaching merely because the common SJW's today don't really discuss this sort of subjugation. Mostly, they discuss really hyperactive and stupid things like white women wearing hoop earrings or whether eating burritos is bad.
But yeah, I'd like the ability to, at the very least, say "The Jaardan are nothing like us."
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2017 20:22:06 GMT
Now that I have your attention with the clickbait thread title.... After a certain level in the game, you find out a fact about the origins on the Angara. The fact that they were bio-engineered by the Jaardan. Later on, Suvi tells you what a horrible thing it was, and Ryders options were limited to; 1) Yes its bad. 2) Yes its bad. I rolled my eyes a bit at another example of SJW preaching & carried on with the game. It's possible that I mis-remember (or misinterpreted) that bit, but I don't remember Ryder ever commenting about whether it was a good/bad thing for the jaardan to create another sentient species. What I remember is that the conversation was about how the angarans would react to learning the truth about their origins. Again, different interpretation. Did the jaardan create the angaran to use them as slaves? I don't remember their reasoning being revealed - given the terra-forming technology at their disposal, it looked like they were trying to engineer a race that would thrive in that environment. |
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Post by kalasaurus on May 20, 2017 22:51:27 GMT
Shepard couldn't defend Batarian slavery either, despite it being part of their caste system and culture. Ryder is coming from a human and Council-centric perspective (as well as an avatar for real life players made by real life people). Ryder can also attempt to understand the Kett's motivations, but at the end of the day, they think that exhaltation is wrong too. The exhalted Kett are all happy in their situation as well, and are grateful for being given that gift. Does that make the Kett system of reproduction right? I'm not defending either side, but you could use the same argument there.
And there has been (some) discussion on the implications of AI and slavery in the MEU. Not a lot, but the Geth/Quarian conflict in the MET, and to a lesser extent the Angaran AI (whether to follow her wishes to go to SAM) hint at this. I agree that some kind of deeper discussion on the matter would be interesting as you described it (though I'm a bit fuzzy on the discussion now- I've only played through it once).
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Post by colfoley on May 21, 2017 1:57:46 GMT
Yeah I remember having a very different conversation with Suvi. My Ryder and her talked about her faith, how it was shaken, how it related to the creation of SAM, and also wondering how the Angarra would take it. The word 'slavery' never came up.
ANyways if the OP is right this is not the first time ME has done shoehorned morality like this, even on the issue of Slavery. I am looking at you quest with the Indentured Servant from ME 2.
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Post by kalasaurus on May 21, 2017 3:07:19 GMT
Yeah I remember having a very different conversation with Suvi. My Ryder and her talked about her faith, how it was shaken, how it related to the creation of SAM, and also wondering how the Angara would take it. The word 'slavery' never came up. That's actually the conversation I remember too. Maybe it's dependent on Ryder's stance on faith with Suvi. My first playthrough, Ryder agreed and shared Suvi's faith. My current Ryder disagreed, so I should be able to confirm this later. |
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Post by KonguZya on May 21, 2017 3:20:00 GMT
Just never talk to Suvi, I made that rule number one for my NG+.
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Post by colfoley on May 21, 2017 3:54:14 GMT
Yeah I remember having a very different conversation with Suvi. My Ryder and her talked about her faith, how it was shaken, how it related to the creation of SAM, and also wondering how the Angara would take it. The word 'slavery' never came up. That's actually the conversation I remember too. Maybe it's dependent on Ryder's stance on faith with Suvi. My first playthrough, Ryder agreed and shared Suvi's faith. My current Ryder disagreed, so I should be able to confirm this later. i Think.mine too. |
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Post by zipzap2000 on May 21, 2017 8:24:33 GMT
Just never talk to Suvi, I made that rule number one for my NG+. Or Gil Or Liam Or Lexi Or PeeBee Or Keri Or Morda Or the Salarian Kallo wants you to talk to Or Sid. |
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Post by raikas on May 23, 2017 14:01:52 GMT
Yeah I remember having a very different conversation with Suvi. My Ryder and her talked about her faith, how it was shaken, how it related to the creation of SAM, and also wondering how the Angara would take it. The word 'slavery' never came up. That's actually the conversation I remember too. Maybe it's dependent on Ryder's stance on faith with Suvi. My first playthrough, Ryder agreed and shared Suvi's faith. My current Ryder disagreed, so I should be able to confirm this later. I don't think that's it - I had Ryder disagree with Suvi on faith and still got the "how will the Angara react" discussion with nothing about slavery. From the way it's portrayed in the game it doesn't even look like the species was created as a slave species, so that angle on the discussion would have struck me as coming out of nowhere. |
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Post by sil on May 23, 2017 15:12:22 GMT
I can't see how it can be compared to slavery, all that is revealed is that the Angaran's were created, they aren't a natural species. If anything, I'm of the opinion that the creation of life should be the goal of civilisation, to spread life through the galaxy. Such as seeding mars with life, for example. So for me, I found the idea really interesting and as far away from slavery as you can get.
If evidence is brought forward that the Angara were made to be slaves, that is different. If they were made for the purpose of creating life, then it's great.
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Post by dmc1001 on May 26, 2017 20:55:32 GMT
If you seed dead worlds with life, and they all start to expand outward beyond their own world, conflict is certain. Now, if we expand into those worlds, and perhaps genetically alter ourselves to fit the environment, that's something else. Or if tech trumps the environment, that's also something else. The angara were created/evolved (whichever it actually is) to fit a certain type of environment. Then the vaults were created to alter environments so the angara can live there. An assumption could be made that either a) these worlds were previously uninhabitable or  nothing significant evolved. (However, in looking at the cycles in the MW, there's no reason to assume life might not evolve due to some unexpected disaster - like an asteroid changing the environment and allowing a species to eventually become "intelligent"; something that now can't happen because of the angara having been created.) |
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Post by Psychevore on May 27, 2017 18:25:22 GMT
Those damn SJWs making me say things in a conversation that never happened in the game.
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Post by BansheeOwnage on May 27, 2017 19:17:13 GMT
The fact that they were bio-engineered by the Jaardan. Later on, Suvi tells you what a horrible thing it was, and Ryders options were limited to; 1) Yes its bad. 2) Yes its bad. I have no idea what you're talking about. I don't recall a single conversation about slavery with Suvi, only about the ethics of creating sentient life. And in it, you had the options to agree with Suvi that it's not so different from creating other "unnatural" things (biotics, fire, clothes), or disagree and say the Jaardan when too far. Shepard couldn't defend Batarian slavery either, despite it being part of their caste system and culture. Ryder is coming from a human and Council-centric perspective (as well as an avatar for real life players made by real life people). Ryder can also attempt to understand the Kett's motivations, but at the end of the day, they think that exhaltation is wrong too. The exhalted Kett are all happy in their situation as well, and are grateful for being given that gift. Does that make the Kett system of reproduction right? I'm not defending either side, but you could use the same argument there. Incorrect. You can find datapads talking about Kett who aren't happy. One, on Voeld, has flashbacks of their previous life as an angara, and feels uncomfortable, to say the least. They bring it up to a superior and say that if they need to be killed for it to stop, that's cool. Not exactly what I'd call happy or healthy. Further, we know the Archon has a team that handles dissident Kett, and we also know they can have civil conflict (Archon's Kett vs Primus' Kett). So no, I don't think we can say "They're all happy with Exaltation." Just never talk to Suvi, I made that rule number one for my NG+.   I can't imagine going through a playthrough without talking to her, are you a masochist?  |
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Post by kalasaurus on May 27, 2017 20:57:40 GMT
Shepard couldn't defend Batarian slavery either, despite it being part of their caste system and culture. Ryder is coming from a human and Council-centric perspective (as well as an avatar for real life players made by real life people). Ryder can also attempt to understand the Kett's motivations, but at the end of the day, they think that exhaltation is wrong too. The exhalted Kett are all happy in their situation as well, and are grateful for being given that gift. Does that make the Kett system of reproduction right? I'm not defending either side, but you could use the same argument there. Incorrect. You can find datapads talking about Kett who aren't happy. One, on Voeld, has flashbacks of their previous life as an angara, and feels uncomfortable, to say the least. They bring it up to a superior and say that if they need to be killed for it to stop, that's cool. Not exactly what I'd call happy or healthy. Further, we know the Archon has a team that handles dissident Kett, and we also know they can have civil conflict (Archon's Kett vs Primus' Kett). So no, I don't think we can say "They're all happy with Exaltation." I stand corrected. I must have missed those datapads, though I do remember a terminal in the final room of the kett base in Eos that goes with what you're saying. A kett that remembers their past life. I was honestly just going off what the Cardinal was saying. I was also half asleep when I wrote that and rambling myself in response to the OP. |
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Post by BansheeOwnage on May 27, 2017 23:30:41 GMT
Incorrect. You can find datapads talking about Kett who aren't happy. One, on Voeld, has flashbacks of their previous life as an angara, and feels uncomfortable, to say the least. They bring it up to a superior and say that if they need to be killed for it to stop, that's cool. Not exactly what I'd call happy or healthy. Further, we know the Archon has a team that handles dissident Kett, and we also know they can have civil conflict (Archon's Kett vs Primus' Kett). So no, I don't think we can say "They're all happy with Exaltation." I stand corrected. I must have missed those datapads, though I do remember a terminal in the final room of the kett base in Eos that goes with what you're saying. A kett that remembers their past life. I was honestly just going off what the Cardinal was saying. I was also half asleep when I wrote that and rambling myself in response to the OP. No problem, sorry if I sounded overly stern. |
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Post by Mihura on May 28, 2017 2:36:26 GMT
Now that I have your attention with the clickbait thread title.... After a certain level in the game, you find out a fact about the origins on the Angara. The fact that they were bio-engineered by the Jaardan. Later on, Suvi tells you what a horrible thing it was, and Ryders options were limited to; 1) Yes its bad. 2) Yes its bad. I rolled my eyes a bit at another example of SJW preaching & carried on with the game.Lets make it clear though - slavery is bad when you apply it to earth. Treating a living, breathing, self aware person as a thing is bad, especially when that person doesnt want to be a slave. But then I started to think about it, and I got annoyed at the blinkered approach to an interesting question. How can we have the arrogance to apply our beliefs to a race far more advanced than us, about which we know practically nothing? Maybe the Jaardan were a right bunch of evil buzztards & created a sentient, self aware race that they oppressed as organic slaves, but maybe they didnt. What technogically advanced race is going to be stupid enough to create untold millions of self aware, sentient beings who might rebel & overthrow them? What if it went like this. The engineers go to the Jaardan supreme leader & say "Boss, we have found a way to create organic tools. No Jaardan will ever have to work again, risk their lives in war, do the dishes or laundry, will you authorise it?" If I was the leader id say "Bloody hell, I will be the most popular leader in history, my people will love me for ever". Then I would say "What if the slaves overthrow me & my people you dumb engineers?" The engineers say "Sorted boss, the slaves will be genetically programmed to love their jobs & serve us. It will actually make them happy & content". "Do it!" I would reply. We wont know why the current day Angara have free will, maybe the engineers made a mistake, or the Jardaan set them free, or they simply evolved. But if an organic being is created by another being & has no concept of freedom & loves its role in life, is it our place to criticize said creators? If we create AI's to serve us, & we program them like the Jaardan programmed the Angara, are the AI's slaves? Are WE slavemasters? An interesting moral quandary, totally avoided in ME:A, because we are forced to say "Slavery is BAD, m'kay". Nop that is shitty writing, you can agree with Dorian when you talk about slavery. DA:I had a lot more political and diverse characters aka "SJW". |
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Post by smellycatbutts on May 28, 2017 6:05:45 GMT
Seems a fair trade. I couldn't tell Suvi she was a dumb cunt for bringing Jesus to Heleus. Bitch needs a solid ShepPunch.
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Post by BansheeOwnage on May 28, 2017 20:45:40 GMT
Seems a fair trade. I couldn't tell Suvi she was a dumb cunt for bringing Jesus to Heleus. Bitch needs a solid ShepPunch. Looks like someone wasn't paying any actual attention to Suvi's faith. |
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Post by smellycatbutts on May 29, 2017 9:23:32 GMT
Seems a fair trade. I couldn't tell Suvi she was a dumb cunt for bringing Jesus to Heleus. Bitch needs a solid ShepPunch. Looks like someone wasn't paying any actual attention to Suvi's faith. Suvi isn't worth paying attention to :kiss: . It's why I made sure to cheat on her ass with a blue tentacle head. Either way, I call bullshit on Ryder having to play nice with every damn character in this game. Responding to Suvi blathering on about Jesus is a basically choice of "Yup, religion is great," or "Yup, religion is great." There ought to be an option to *eyeroll* and laugh, "Yeah, well with SAM, I've achieved OT VIII. Have you read Dianetics lately?" Or "Oh no, Lord Xenu has returned!!! Oh, LOL, it's just the Archon. No worries!" |
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2017 9:31:27 GMT
Looks like someone wasn't paying any actual attention to Suvi's faith. Suvi isn't worth paying attention to :kiss: . It's why I made sure to cheat on her ass with a blue tentacle head. Either way, I call bullshit on Ryder having to play nice with every damn character in this game. Responding to Suvi blathering on about Jesus is a basically choice of "Yup, religion is great," or "Yup, religion is great." There ought to be an *eyeroll* and "Yeah, well with SAM, I've achieved OT VIII. Have you read Dianetics lately?" She never mentions Jesus once, but ok! Just because she believes in god, doesn't mean she is christian. |
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Post by smellycatbutts on May 29, 2017 9:33:50 GMT
Suvi isn't worth paying attention to :kiss: . It's why I made sure to cheat on her ass with a blue tentacle head. Either way, I call bullshit on Ryder having to play nice with every damn character in this game. Responding to Suvi blathering on about Jesus is a basically choice of "Yup, religion is great," or "Yup, religion is great." There ought to be an *eyeroll* and "Yeah, well with SAM, I've achieved OT VIII. Have you read Dianetics lately?" She never mentions Jesus once, but ok! Just because she believes in god, doesn't mean she is christian. :poop: |
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Post by BansheeOwnage on May 29, 2017 18:16:54 GMT
Looks like someone wasn't paying any actual attention to Suvi's faith. Suvi isn't worth paying attention to :kiss: . It's why I made sure to cheat on her ass with a blue tentacle head. Either way, I call bullshit on Ryder having to play nice with every damn character in this game. Responding to Suvi blathering on about Jesus is a basically choice of "Yup, religion is great," or "Yup, religion is great." There ought to be an option to *eyeroll* and laugh, "Yeah, well with SAM, I've achieved OT VIII. Have you read Dianetics lately?" Or "Oh no, Lord Xenu has returned!!! Oh, LOL, it's just the Archon. No worries!" The level of willful ignorance condensed into only one paragraph is astounding. |
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nothing significant evolved. (However, in looking at the cycles in the MW, there's no reason to assume life might not evolve due to some unexpected disaster - like an asteroid changing the environment and allowing a species to eventually become "intelligent"; something that now can't happen because of the angara having been created.)
