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Post by straykat on Sept 16, 2016 6:59:02 GMT
Depending on the past you choose, ME1 Shepard will always have nightmares (esp Mindoir and Akuze Shep talking about troubled dreams and endless screaming) and then from the Prothean visions. The third ME3 dream have the same oily blackness at the edges and a lot of overlapping whispers like the time TIM used his powers on Shepard. That's not a coincidence. I don't really see Shepard having complete immunity from indoctrination. She's just as emotionally vulnerable as everyone else. The Leviathans didn't have any trouble making Shepard their thrall, they choose to let her go. Wait.. wait.. when does Akuze Shep do this? Only line I know is with Liara (I think if unromanced) and he talks about nightmares or something. Or maybe it's dealing with the visions. I forget. I figured this was available to all Sheps though. As for Shep's indoctrination, I guess the upside is every ending gets rid of it in one way or another. lol. Some definitely better than others. |
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Post by aoibhealfae on Sept 16, 2016 7:33:27 GMT
The ME1 nightmare talk from the visions with Liara is default for all Shepard.
It was the scene where Toombs turned to Shepard and ask if the screaming will stop, Shepard brush it off without really answering him and if Shepard didn't persuade him, he will kill himself. Paired that with Mindoir Shepard saying "I don't know" to Talitha who asked about the dreams. Even in the beginning of the game, Hackett even talk about this Shepard having serious emotional scars. To me it doesn't sound like Shepard getting over it, quite contrary, it was her hiding her troubles and keep functioning. I don't think ME2 ever talk about Shepard having nightmares or trouble sleeping (except that Aria making comment about how she looks like she need someone to warm her bed).
If ME3 nightmares were that insignificant, why do it need to be shown? What make it so different to the build-in trauma Shepard who went through a lot worse than a couple of dead squadmates?
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Post by straykat on Sept 16, 2016 7:37:46 GMT
The ME1 nightmare talk from the visions with Liara is default for all Shepard. It was the scene where Toombs turned to Shepard and ask if the screaming will stop, Shepard brush it off without really answering him and if Shepard didn't persuade him, he will kill himself. Paired that with Mindoir Shepard saying "I don't know" to Talitha who asked about the dreams. Even in the beginning of the game, Hackett even talk about this Shepard having serious emotional scars. To me it doesn't sound like Shepard getting over it, quite contrary, it was her hiding her troubles and keep functioning. I don't think ME2 ever talk about Shepard having nightmares or trouble sleeping (except that Aria making comment about how she looks like she need someone to warm her bed). If ME3 nightmares were that insignificant, why do it need to be shown? What make it so different to the build-in trauma Shepard who went through a lot worse than a couple of dead squadmates? Oh, I remember that now. I usually don't have persuade checks, so forgot about it. But I still rp'ed this way. I never thought Shep got over it. I just end up playing Shep as really closed off (at first at least). I love that Aria line btw.. I've incorporated into my gameplay as well. Funny you mention it. |
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Post by Ieldra on Sept 16, 2016 9:58:11 GMT
One of the first signs that something's going on is when TIM wants to keep the collector base, and thus, the human reaper. Think back to those logs we found of people who became fascinated with a reaper object and wanted to stay near to it and "study it". I mean, hell, he kept the remains of the human reaper right outside his office. Also, the game hammers it home that the idea of wanting to control the Reapers is a sign of indoctrination. For example, the Prothean faction that sabotaged the building of the crucible. Indoctrinated. Just my two cents. Whether the game hammers it home or not, this kind of thinking is bullshit. It would mean that nobody sane could come up with the idea of controlling the Reapers. I'd call it ambitious instead. Perhaps overambititous, but certainly not insane, particularly if losing the war means extinction. In that situation, you'll really try anything, and I think an argument can be made that using a completely untested device like the Crucible is less rational than experimenting to see how the Reapers can be controlled. Also, with regard to his methods: I only condemn the *unnecessary* evil (of which there is enough to consider the writing stupid, for a man with TIM's intelligence, but not all of it is like that). Again, consider that the alternative to losing the war is extinction. Our wars here on Earth have never been of that kind. Had they been, I'm sure we'd have seen something similar here or there. I can even imagine that once the survival mentality has taken hold of humanity, there would be volunteers for these experiments. It is hard to say, though, since there hasn't been a comparable situation in human history. There has never been a war you couldn't flee from, with a 100% certainty of death if you lost. |
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Post by Ieldra on Sept 16, 2016 10:12:06 GMT
Good vindication for the Illusive Man, and I appreciate you didn't go down the rabbit hole of moral degradation that many a bleeding heart paragon will make about how 'evil' he is. The fact is, the Illusive Man was one of the most effective fighters against the Reapers, and Shepard would never have been able to have stopped them without his key contributions throughout his life. A very interesting figure who understood the cost of survival, the future, and creating a stronger world. I can make the argument for how the Illusive Man was not a racist if you like. I always was the most vociferous defender of TIM, Cerberus, and practical realpolitik in the ME universe, something most fans probably haven't even heard of. I mostly agree with this - Anderson's "There's always another way", which many people appear to believe, is wishful thinking and stupid, to the point that I find it insulting to be expected to believe it, but the problem was that the presentation of TIM's projects suggested all too often "for the evulz" rather than practical realpolitik (mostly in ME2). It may be necessary to spend lives, but you certainly don't do it casually. |
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Post by straykat on Sept 16, 2016 11:04:15 GMT
Good vindication for the Illusive Man, and I appreciate you didn't go down the rabbit hole of moral degradation that many a bleeding heart paragon will make about how 'evil' he is. The fact is, the Illusive Man was one of the most effective fighters against the Reapers, and Shepard would never have been able to have stopped them without his key contributions throughout his life. A very interesting figure who understood the cost of survival, the future, and creating a stronger world. I can make the argument for how the Illusive Man was not a racist if you like. I always was the most vociferous defender of TIM, Cerberus, and practical realpolitik in the ME universe, something most fans probably haven't even heard of. I mostly agree with this - Anderson's "There's always another way", which many people appear to believe, is wishful thinking and stupid, to the point that I find it insulting to be expected to believe it, but the problem was that the presentation of TIM's projects suggested all too often "for the evulz" rather than practical realpolitik (mostly in ME2). It may be necessary to spend lives, but you certainly don't do it casually. I don't remember him saying there's "always another way". He said "not if there's another way". But I'm not talking about that exactly. I'm talking about throwing away people in the name of some "ideal" of those very people. Where the latter becomes more "real" than the former. The 20th century of full of communists in particular who did the same thing. There is no utopia or better world to fight for, except this one. In TIM's case though, the lure of Reaper tech and what it could do for humans became more important than the humans themselves. |
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Post by Ieldra on Sept 16, 2016 11:38:56 GMT
I don't remember him saying there's "always another way". He said "not if there's another way". He does say that. I don't recall where exactly, but it was somewhere in the ending sequence, after the beam run. That's not practical realpolitik, that's obsession. Not what we were speaking of here, but I agree the presentation of TIM's projects sometimes suggested this. BTW, this appears to be a pet peeve of yours. Meanwhile, I don't necessarily object to this as such - I am a consequentialist after all - but it is usually accompanied by one-sided blindness induced by your ideology. Communists, for instance, plainly ignore that given human nature, their utopia can never work without totalitarian control, and free-market apologists ignore that given human nature, their vision will result in very selective prosperity rather than benefitting everyone, and a great increase in unfairness and social instability. In TIM's case, if his Cerberus troopers are any indication, he has the same kind of blindness, in ignoring that using Reaper tech this way will make people not human any more. His scheme to control the Reapers, in contrast, doesn't suffer from the same blindness - it can actually work and any side effects can't be foreseen to be necessarily bad, so it's worth a try given the alternative of relying on a completely untested device of unknown functionalit. |
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Post by straykat on Sept 16, 2016 12:28:29 GMT
I don't remember him saying there's "always another way". He said "not if there's another way". He does say that. I don't recall where exactly, but it was somewhere in the ending sequence, after the beam run. That's not practical realpolitik, that's obsession. Not what we were speaking of here, but I agree the presentation of TIM's projects sometimes suggested this. BTW, this appears to be a pet peeve of yours. Meanwhile, I don't necessarily object to this as such - I am a consequentialist after all - but it is usually accompanied by one-sided blindness induced by your ideology. Communists, for instance, plainly ignore that given human nature, their utopia can never work without totalitarian control, and free-market apologists ignore that given human nature, their vision will result in very selective prosperity rather than benefitting everyone, and a great increase in unfairness and social instability. In TIM's case, if his Cerberus troopers are any indication, he has the same kind of blindness, in ignoring that using Reaper tech this way will make people not human any more. His scheme to control the Reapers, in contrast, doesn't suffer from the same blindness - it can actually work and any side effects can't be foreseen to be necessarily bad, so it's worth a try given the alternative of relying on a completely untested device of unknown functionalit. I'm not free market entirely, but even then, those guys were largely self-made. So it's not that "selective", other than first come, first served. That's probably why they were assholes, because they were so adamant about building their own empires themselves. Or at least at first. I'm not excusing that, but it had nothing to do with selection. If you look at the upper class in the Gilded age, they thumbed their noses at that kind of emphasis on wealth. Many of them valued community and service. These were actual people "selected" for wealth, but then they de-valued it in some ways. Some of them crusaded against it. The Roosevelts especially. And as those gilded age dudes died and their kids took over, their kids acted the same way as the upper class in the previous age. The Rockefellers, Hearsts, etc.. All of them either slummed it or tried to do a service for people. Something about growing up that way seems to bring guilt. It's competition and "new money" that gets ugly. ... But I'm kind of derailing. I think we can at least agree TIM had a blindness. As for controlling Reapers specifically, that's a logical thing to think when encountering computers. I can't hold against that on it's own. It just seems to come with a lot of extra baggage. In TIM's case, it's not just for the sake of control, but a path to evolution. Which is the same excuse for what he did to his Troops. And what Kai Leng ranted a little about. They stopped caring about actual humans or humanity in the pursuit of that goal. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2016 13:30:19 GMT
Depending on the past you choose, ME1 Shepard will always have nightmares (esp Mindoir and Akuze Shep talking about troubled dreams and endless screaming) and then from the Prothean visions. The third ME3 dream have the same oily blackness at the edges and a lot of overlapping whispers like the time TIM used his powers on Shepard. That's not a coincidence. I don't really see Shepard having complete immunity from indoctrination. She's just as emotionally vulnerable as everyone else. The Leviathans didn't have any trouble making Shepard their thrall, they choose to let her go. The thing that, for me, confirms that Shepard is not indoctrinated are the two Prothean VIs that say absolutely that he/she is not indoctrinated... Vigil on Ilos who doesn't sense the taint of indoctrination on any of you and Vendetta on Thessia, who indicates that Shepard is not indoctrinated and immediately senses that Kai Leng is indoctrinated. Where you place Leviathan in the game, therefore, would make a difference as to whether or not you might interpret that encounter as indoctrinating Shepard. If Leviathan is done before Thessia, then Thessia would confirm that Shepard was not indoctrinated by the Leviathan. Finally, the Catalyst indicates clearly that he controls TIM and that is why he could not control the Reapers. That Shepard can select the option to control the Reapers is (as I interpret) an indication that Shepard is not indoctrinated at the end of the game. Of course, as with everything else in this game... others can interpret the complete inverse... since what Bioware has done is insert conflicting details at all levels of the game to make this game interpretable on any number of disparate levels. |
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Post by The Hype Himself on Sept 16, 2016 13:44:35 GMT
He does say that. I don't recall where exactly, but it was somewhere in the ending sequence, after the beam run. That's not practical realpolitik, that's obsession. Not what we were speaking of here, but I agree the presentation of TIM's projects sometimes suggested this. BTW, this appears to be a pet peeve of yours. Meanwhile, I don't necessarily object to this as such - I am a consequentialist after all - but it is usually accompanied by one-sided blindness induced by your ideology. Communists, for instance, plainly ignore that given human nature, their utopia can never work without totalitarian control, and free-market apologists ignore that given human nature, their vision will result in very selective prosperity rather than benefitting everyone, and a great increase in unfairness and social instability. In TIM's case, if his Cerberus troopers are any indication, he has the same kind of blindness, in ignoring that using Reaper tech this way will make people not human any more. His scheme to control the Reapers, in contrast, doesn't suffer from the same blindness - it can actually work and any side effects can't be foreseen to be necessarily bad, so it's worth a try given the alternative of relying on a completely untested device of unknown functionalit. ... But I'm kind of derailing. I think we can at least agree TIM had a blindness. As for controlling Reapers specifically, that's a logical thing to think when encountering computers. I can't hold against that on it's own. It just seems to come with a lot of extra baggage. In TIM's case, it's not just for the sake of control, but a path to evolution. Which is the same excuse for what he did to his Troops. And what Kai Leng ranted a little about. They stopped caring about actual humans or humanity in the pursuit of that goal. For the most part, we can't agree: I don't think TIM had a blindness beyond his arrogance to think he had to be the one to control the Reapers. FDR made the same mistake in wanting to be the one to ensure the proper implementation of the UN (his baby) post-war (and look how that turned out.) That said, who knows how much better the galaxy would be if TIM could have had the Reapers. Honestly man, the only blindness I see is yours: you don't get or see or want to see the big picture. The actual humans and humanity are nothing next to what they can be through our evolution. It's an opportunity to evolve and control our own destiny, for us make the necessary sacrifice for today to ensure that we are Gods tomorrow. Or, perhaps, it's the knowledge that that future is out there for humanity, and that's what motivates us to preserve humanity. I don't advocate casually throwing human lives aside; ideally, I would preserve as many as the vision I pursue allows. But if the case for the future, requires death, even my own, to be enacted, I would still put it all out there to achieve it. |
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Post by The Hype Himself on Sept 16, 2016 14:18:20 GMT
I mostly agree with this - Anderson's "There's always another way", which many people appear to believe, is wishful thinking and stupid, to the point that I find it insulting to be expected to believe it, but the problem was that the presentation of TIM's projects suggested all too often "for the evulz" rather than practical realpolitik (mostly in ME2). It may be necessary to spend lives, but you certainly don't do it casually. I don't remember him saying there's "always another way". He said "not if there's another way". But I'm not talking about that exactly. I'm talking about throwing away people in the name of some "ideal" of those very people. Where the latter becomes more "real" than the former. The 20th century of full of communists in particular who did the same thing. There is no utopia or better world to fight for, except this one. In TIM's case though, the lure of Reaper tech and what it could do for humans became more important than the humans themselves.To be blunt, it's because it is. Our world is malleable, constructionist. We can change it and build on it; there need not be a utopia or better world to fight for, when we have our own to do the same to as such. Comparing that vision to Communism and its proponents in the 20th century has little cogency beyond the same idealist dream that might have inspired them to attain Utopia; otherwise, in the future presented, we have a greater technological opportunity to enact a better, stronger, more prosperous world than might have been inspired. We have extrasolar colonies, faster-than-light travel and communication, the ability to miniaturize technology and make it faster, more efficiently, and in far greater numbers than ever before. We have a means of enacting a better world than the Communists of our 20th century in this universe. Despite their being inspired, we have a means of truly becoming something more, and with the Reapers, no matter how you decide to end the conflict, we can have so much more than that. Anderson says that there is another way, but |
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Post by Garo on Sept 16, 2016 15:00:14 GMT
Maybe he wasn't but was easier to indoctrinate later.
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Post by dmc1001 on Sept 16, 2016 16:07:38 GMT
The ME1 nightmare talk from the visions with Liara is default for all Shepard. It was the scene where Toombs turned to Shepard and ask if the screaming will stop, Shepard brush it off without really answering him and if Shepard didn't persuade him, he will kill himself. Paired that with Mindoir Shepard saying "I don't know" to Talitha who asked about the dreams. Even in the beginning of the game, Hackett even talk about this Shepard having serious emotional scars. To me it doesn't sound like Shepard getting over it, quite contrary, it was her hiding her troubles and keep functioning. I don't think ME2 ever talk about Shepard having nightmares or trouble sleeping (except that Aria making comment about how she looks like she need someone to warm her bed). If ME3 nightmares were that insignificant, why do it need to be shown? What make it so different to the build-in trauma Shepard who went through a lot worse than a couple of dead squadmates? My Akuze survivor told Toombs that the nightmares would end. I wasn't suggesting Shepard has always suffered from nightmares but that people do after traumatic events. In ME3, Joker says that Anderson tasked him with helping bring down Shepard's stress level. It was said that Shepard has never experienced this level of stress, including after events like Akuze/Mindoir/Torfan. The boy in the nightmares symbolizes Shepard's inability to save everyone. Even Garrus tells Shepard that humans want to save everyone and that's not possible in this war. BW has also said indoctrination (for Shepard) is not a thing. Putting all that together you have an overstressed Shepard who is literally dying inside while trying not to let anyone know about it. That manifests in nightmares. It would be more surprising if a person in Shepard's position didn't have nightmares. |
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Post by themikefest on Sept 16, 2016 16:24:16 GMT
I don't remember him saying there's "always another way". He said "not if there's another way". He does say that. I don't recall where exactly, but it was somewhere in the ending sequence, after the beam run. |
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Post by aoibhealfae on Sept 16, 2016 20:30:31 GMT
My Akuze survivor told Toombs that the nightmares would end. I wasn't suggesting Shepard has always suffered from nightmares but that people do after traumatic events. In ME3, Joker says that Anderson tasked him with helping bring down Shepard's stress level. It was said that Shepard has never experienced this level of stress, including after events like Akuze/Mindoir/Torfan. The boy in the nightmares symbolizes Shepard's inability to save everyone. Even Garrus tells Shepard that humans want to save everyone and that's not possible in this war. BW has also said indoctrination (for Shepard) is not a thing. Putting all that together you have an overstressed Shepard who is literally dying inside while trying not to let anyone know about it. That manifests in nightmares. It would be more surprising if a person in Shepard's position didn't have nightmares. Joker also said that Akuze and Torfan Shepard was at the Blitz which was never mentioned specifically until that exact conversation. Shepard have make a lot of decisions prior to Thessia which involved sacrificing a lot of lives for the entirety of the game. Sacrificed 1/3 of Alliance fleet to save Destiny Ascension or the destruction of Destiny Ascension and the thousands of people in it. The kidnappings of human colonies is the by-product of Shepard's role in destroying the Sovereign which attracted Harbinger's attention to the species. And then not being able to rescue anyone that the Collectors took from the colonies except for Normandy's crew. The destruction of Bahak system. That was hundred of thousands of lives affected by Shepard's decisions prior to ME3. Although, I hate how forced it was with the whole Shepard-have-to-feel-bad-and-responsible-about-Thessia, I do Horizon immediately after the cutscene just so. And I get a scene where the camera pan to Joker drinking a glass of water and talking about the good all days when they went to Eden Prime with Nihlus at his ass. Therefore, no more Shepard yelling at Joker about not being her therapist. For me, (wanted to be neutral for this but nah..), the nightmares situated itself neatly when Shepard was in a tough situation with someone she love. The first dream starts after Kaidan being hospitalized and Shepard was worried whether he would pull through. The second dream occur after Tuchanka and she heard Ashley whispering to her and it happen prior to Cerberus coup where she could've shot Kaidan dead. And then the third dream occurs while she was in his arms, she was running for the boy again only to see herself hugging the boy like she was his mother. She was more freaked out by that. So... I accept that the dreams was her deepest unfulfilled desire. She appropriated the boy she fail to save at Vancouver to represent the son she wanted to have with Kaidan (who was ironically raised in Vancouver). But this future of her having a family is impossible as they're constantly being threatened by the Reapers. And at her most vulnerable point at the end of the game, the Leviathan AI needed something to influence her choices away from her intention to destroy it by projecting the image of the ghost of a child she fail to save and repetitively fail again in her dreams. How does it knows she's having dreams of the kid? She never told anyone about it.
So, the dreams isn't something she conjured up because ME3 is unusually stressful for her. Its something born out of her deepest desires and her fears should the reapers win. Since realistically, she's someone who had lost her entire family and just lost Anderson who she love as a father figure. The only way for her not to lose the possible future was to confront her fears and realizing her nightmares; of her and the child being engulfed in flames = Destroy ending. I could add more sap in it by having her pregnant when she dream that she's the nightmare's kid's mother because god knows what hormones does to you .
Of course, I interpret it as such because it was my own Shepard's narrative and it started to sound suspiciously of another episode of frelling Farscape.. grr. |
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Post by straykat on Sept 17, 2016 4:40:30 GMT
I blame Thessia on being a rushed rewrite and slimming down all it's options. I still don't mind Shepard feeling bad about it, but to take it so personally like that is lame. And lets not kid ourselves. The lack of options probably made them happy. It just becomes another way for these writers to jerk off to Liara again. It became very one sided, rather than the more complicated previous version of Thessia. Which they probably never liked in the first place. They have to guard their precious waifu, completely losing sight of what made the other games work better, when it came to emotions.
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Post by HYR on Sept 17, 2016 5:34:45 GMT
One of the first signs that something's going on is when TIM wants to keep the collector base, and thus, the human reaper. Think back to those logs we found of people who became fascinated with a reaper object and wanted to stay near to it and "study it". I mean, hell, he kept the remains of the human reaper right outside his office. Also, the game hammers it home that the idea of wanting to control the Reapers is a sign of indoctrination. For example, the Prothean faction that sabotaged the building of the crucible. Indoctrinated. Just my two cents. Whether the game hammers it home or not, this kind of thinking is bullshit. It would mean that nobody sane could come up with the idea of controlling the Reapers. I'd call it ambitious instead. Perhaps overambititous, but certainly not insane, particularly if losing the war means extinction. In that situation, you'll really try anything, and I think an argument can be made that using a completely untested device like the Crucible is less rational than experimenting to see how the Reapers can be controlled. . I'd long felt (before ME3's release) that Reaper indoctrination was an area where people should have focused their attention in fighting the Reapers. That is, doing some serious study about how it works and what could be exploited/used against them. Taking the approach of hackers against them always made a lot of sense to me. To what end you do it -- control, destruction, liberation -- is another debate, that proverbial bridge you wait to arrive at before you cross it. It's maddening that TIM and Cerberus are the only ones in the galaxy doing this, under the premise of something that seems far-fetched. |
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Post by Ieldra on Sept 17, 2016 5:50:13 GMT
The actual humans and humanity are nothing next to what they can be through our evolution. It's an opportunity to evolve and control our own destiny, for us make the necessary sacrifice for today to ensure that we are Gods tomorrow. Or, perhaps, it's the knowledge that that future is out there for humanity, and that's what motivates us to preserve humanity. I don't advocate casually throwing human lives aside; ideally, I would preserve as many as the vision I pursue allows. But if the case for the future, requires death, even my own, to be enacted, I would still put it all out there to achieve it. I agree with this in principle, but there's a problem: In ME's scenario, the fact that we're fighting against total extinction justifies the extreme measures, but in any other case nobody would want to be killed for another's vision of the future (at least if they didn't agree with it passionately enough to risk their lives), and if this (the killing) happened, it would create a future where anyone can be killed for such a vision at any time - after all, there is no limit to what we might envision for our future. I may be willing to offer myself for, say, experiments with genetic engineering, but I wouldn't want to live in a world where another can make that decision for me. I wouldn't want to live in a world where people can be made into mind-controlled slaves (like the Cerberus troopers) on another's whim either. So, TIM's scheme to control the Reapers, that I support, but his vision for humanity's future I find very questionable. I see no-one becoming god-like except himself. Would he share the means to get there with the rest of humanity if he's successful? |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2016 13:30:05 GMT
Depending on the past you choose, ME1 Shepard will always have nightmares (esp Mindoir and Akuze Shep talking about troubled dreams and endless screaming) and then from the Prothean visions. The third ME3 dream have the same oily blackness at the edges and a lot of overlapping whispers like the time TIM used his powers on Shepard. That's not a coincidence. I don't really see Shepard having complete immunity from indoctrination. She's just as emotionally vulnerable as everyone else. The Leviathans didn't have any trouble making Shepard their thrall, they choose to let her go. Wait.. wait.. when does Akuze Shep do this? Only line I know is with Liara (I think if unromanced) and he talks about nightmares or something. Or maybe it's dealing with the visions. I forget. I figured this was available to all Sheps though. As for Shep's indoctrination, I guess the upside is every ending gets rid of it in one way or another. lol. Some definitely better than others. Because the Ontarom mission is bugged, any Shepard (not just Akuze Shepard) can respond to the nightmare dialogue. It really detracts from that mission, IMO, unless the player happens to be playing an Akuze Shepard. I don't think the dialogue has anything to do with indoctrination... just plain ole PTSD... which Shepard has a lot of reasons to be suffering from it. If playing a Torfan Shepard, the stress of what happened there causes Major Kyle to essentially break down as well. Only Elysium Shepard seems to get to walk away from their background experience with no PTSD related effects. In that background side mission (Agebinium), it's the mercs (Haliat) who come off as being somewhat unstable. |
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Sept 17, 2016 14:04:06 GMT
I blame Thessia on being a rushed rewrite and slimming down all it's options. I still don't mind Shepard feeling bad about it, but to take it so personally like that is lame. And lets not kid ourselves. The lack of options probably made them happy. It just becomes another way for these writers to jerk off to Liara again. It became very one sided, rather than the more complicated previous version of Thessia. Which they probably never liked in the first place. They have to guard their precious waifu, completely losing sight of what made the other games work better, when it came to emotions. Interesting view point care to elaborate on how you came to that conclusion? |
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Post by straykat on Sept 17, 2016 14:22:15 GMT
I blame Thessia on being a rushed rewrite and slimming down all it's options. I still don't mind Shepard feeling bad about it, but to take it so personally like that is lame. And lets not kid ourselves. The lack of options probably made them happy. It just becomes another way for these writers to jerk off to Liara again. It became very one sided, rather than the more complicated previous version of Thessia. Which they probably never liked in the first place. They have to guard their precious waifu, completely losing sight of what made the other games work better, when it came to emotions. Interesting view point care to elaborate on how you came to that conclusion? It was meant to parallel Virmire originally, where you were torn between the VS or Liara. They couldn't get a time extension to flesh out the whole Javik story connected to this, so had to trim things and made Javik a DLC. By taking that out though, Thessia becomes more linear. And emotional scenes aren't the result of any particular choice. But I think they were happy enough having to rewrite anyhow. 1) It's easier and 2) They seemed to want to push Liara to the forefront anyways. I'm not averse to her character personally -- I'm not mikefest lol.. but it's hard to deny this. She's ubiqutious. |
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Post by straykat on Sept 17, 2016 14:26:34 GMT
Wait.. wait.. when does Akuze Shep do this? Only line I know is with Liara (I think if unromanced) and he talks about nightmares or something. Or maybe it's dealing with the visions. I forget. I figured this was available to all Sheps though. As for Shep's indoctrination, I guess the upside is every ending gets rid of it in one way or another. lol. Some definitely better than others. Because the Ontarom mission is bugged, any Shepard (not just Akuze Shepard) can respond to the nightmare dialogue. It really detracts from that mission, IMO, unless the player happens to be playing an Akuze Shepard. I don't think the dialogue has anything to do with indoctrination... just plain ole PTSD... which Shepard has a lot of reasons to be suffering from it. If playing a Torfan Shepard, the stress of what happened there causes Major Kyle to essentially break down as well. Only Elysium Shepard seems to get to walk away from their background experience with no PTSD related effects. In that background side mission (Agebinium), it's the mercs (Haliat) who come off as being somewhat unstable. That makes sense. Personally I like Akuze more, but my second choice is the Blitz.. I see it kind of like Die Hard. Like one soldier (maybe Infriltrator lol) causing havoc and being very elusive. Probably making jokes to himself the whole time like Bruce Willis. |
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Sept 17, 2016 16:57:32 GMT
Interesting view point care to elaborate on how you came to that conclusion? It was meant to parallel Virmire originally, where you were torn between the VS or Liara. They couldn't get a time extension to flesh out the whole Javik story connected to this, so had to trim things and made Javik a DLC. By taking that out though, Thessia becomes more linear. And emotional scenes aren't the result of any particular choice. But I think they were happy enough having to rewrite anyhow. 1) It's easier and 2) They seemed to want to push Liara to the forefront anyways. I'm not averse to her character personally -- I'm not mikefest lol.. but it's hard to deny this. She's ubiqutious. I do not see any possible way it could mirror Virmire. Since the main points of that is kill/convince Wrex to stand down. Then pick which team mate you want to die a noble but questionably pointless death. Liara pulling a gun and needing to be talked down or shot over learning the Protheans were the ones that influenced Asari culture doesn't make any sense. Because the Salarians and the Council them selves have already shown doing that. Javik I can't see given his personality to even give a shit that a primitive doesn't believe him. They must have cut a metric ton of that level because I have Javik and I usually take him with me on that mission and nothing even vaguely hints to some how be a parallel to Virmire. But I do agree it is forced the way Shepard responds to the conquest of Thessia. |
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Post by Obadiah on Sept 17, 2016 16:57:39 GMT
I don't think we ever had all the facts on what indoctrination really was. There are versions of it sprinkled throughout the lore, and then there is the final effect on the individual. And of course there is the Codex entry, but I'm pretty sure that was meant to be incomplete. I think it is perfectly possible the TIM was "indoctrinated" from his contact with the Reaper artifact, but his distance from all things Reaper over time just made his indoctrination slower and more subtle.
To be frank, I'm not even sure indoctrination in itself is a bad thing, its just the Reaper minds are so much more powerful than organics, we get overwhelmed to the point of madness and self destruction.
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Post by straykat on Sept 17, 2016 22:41:47 GMT
It was meant to parallel Virmire originally, where you were torn between the VS or Liara. They couldn't get a time extension to flesh out the whole Javik story connected to this, so had to trim things and made Javik a DLC. By taking that out though, Thessia becomes more linear. And emotional scenes aren't the result of any particular choice. But I think they were happy enough having to rewrite anyhow. 1) It's easier and 2) They seemed to want to push Liara to the forefront anyways. I'm not averse to her character personally -- I'm not mikefest lol.. but it's hard to deny this. She's ubiqutious. I do not see any possible way it could mirror Virmire. Since the main points of that is kill/convince Wrex to stand down. Then pick which team mate you want to die a noble but questionably pointless death. Liara pulling a gun and needing to be talked down or shot over learning the Protheans were the ones that influenced Asari culture doesn't make any sense. Because the Salarians and the Council them selves have already shown doing that. Javik I can't see given his personality to even give a shit that a primitive doesn't believe him. They must have cut a metric ton of that level because I have Javik and I usually take him with me on that mission and nothing even vaguely hints to some how be a parallel to Virmire. But I do agree it is forced the way Shepard responds to the conquest of Thessia. Let me clarify. I meant Kai Leng forced a situation that made you choose between Liara or the VS. And Javik wasn't meant to be recruited until that mission. But they did cut a ton, yeah. There wasn't a Cerberus Coup the same way it is now. And you didn't have the VS as a squadmate until Thessia either. They got well and became Spectres and were sent out to track some news about Prothean relics. |
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