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Post by ScumbagShepurd on May 23, 2019 3:51:54 GMT
You don't seem to clear on the medieval concept of a king, are you? there's no single "medieval concept of a king". If you claim to know about it more than me, get off your high horse and do share. and no, "Stannis didn't kill Renly" is as much bollocks as "Dany didn't kill people in KL, Drogon did". Stannis did cheat on his wife, Stannis did participate in the black magic ritual and Stannis did know that said ritual would result in Renly's death.
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Post by Noxluxe on May 23, 2019 8:56:20 GMT
Wait, what did people like about Stannis? He was so drab IMO... 1: Stephen Dillane 2: Stephen Dillane's voice I liked Stannis well enough in the books, and he has moments of seeming to be the most grounded and focused of the king claimants, usually thanks to the fact that he really does spend a lot of time receiving and accepting counsel from Davos, Melisandre and Jon. But Stephen Dillane gave him life and personality way beyond what he was on paper. Every word out of his mouth was both badass and bone-dry. And unlike Daenerys he never appeared to be presented as a perfect savior. Just a bitter man with strong principles and flaws for all to see, whose merits were genuinely weighed against his fanaticism instead of being blown out of proportion. Also, any character human enough to sport a receding hairline on television automatically gets a few likes from me. warsandpoliticsoficeandfire.wordpress.com/2017/05/31/iron-bends-the-surprising-flexibility-of-stannis-baratheon/so Stannis had his suspicions about Robert not having legitimate offspring. Stannis claims to have some proof of it. Yet he does absolutely nothing until Robert's dead. To be precise, he doesn't warn Robert at all. why? Is he scared for his life? He could sent a letter from Dragonstone to Robert. the only real explanation is that Stannis didn't want Robert to know because Robert could just legitimate some of his bastards and name them heirs ahead of Stannis. So Stannis was waiting until Robert died not knowing and then Stannis could claim the throne. He was the one who approached Jon Arryn about the matter, who was in a better position to ascertain he truth, who Robert trusted and loved more, and who would be an impartial judge of the matter where any attempt on his own part to de-legitimize Robert's children could be seen as a naked power-grab, seeing as that would make him Robert's heir by default. It doesn't explain his inaction throughout the events of the first book, although the timeline between Jon Arryn's and Robert's deaths wasn't that long. But he didn't do nothing about the issue, and what he did was fairly shrewd and honorable.
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ScumbagShepurd
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Post by ScumbagShepurd on May 23, 2019 10:52:49 GMT
He was the one who approached Jon Arryn about the matter, who was in a better position to ascertain he truth, who Robert trusted and loved more, and who would be an impartial judge of the matter where any attempt on his own part to de-legitimize Robert's children could be seen as a naked power-grab, seeing as that would make him Robert's heir by default. It doesn't explain his inaction throughout the events of the first book, although the timeline between Jon Arryn's and Robert's deaths wasn't that long. But he didn't do nothing about the issue, and what he did was fairly shrewd and honorable. i know about investigation. But the whole investigation thing didn't mean much since Stannis fled to his lair and didn't say a word to anyone about it. Ned had to start all over again and Robert still died not knowing - very convenient for Stannis. Stannis still did nothing to expose the incest to the world until Stannis could be the only "rightful" heir to the throne.
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ScumbagShepurd
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Post by ScumbagShepurd on May 23, 2019 11:29:05 GMT
now that i re-read parts of ASOIAF, i'm even more convinced that Stannis isn't some "i dont wanna but oh well if y'all insist" type of guy. He seems entitled and childish to the point that he'd threaten fate of the whole kingdom in order to get what he thinks belongs to him.
not only Stannis didn't tell Robert, he didn't tell Renly either - knowing that Renly was working against Cersei: "A year ago you were scheming to make the girl [Margaery] one of Robert's whores." "A year ago I was scheming to make the girl Robert's queen," Renly said" - ACOK.
so Stannis and Renly didn't get along but Stannis knew that Renly was anti-Cersei as well. Stannis claims that his accusation wouldn't weigh much since he'd be the one cashing in on the whole scandal. But Renly's words on incest could've changed everything since Robert trusted Renly a lot more.
so Stannis didn't tell Robert cuz reasons. Stannis didn't tell Renly cuz other reasons. Stannis didn't tell Ned cuz...why again?
then how exactly was he going to overthrow Cersei and her incest babies without war (which would tremendously damage the kingdom he claims to care so much)? What exactly was he hoping to achieve by doing nothing after Jon Arryn's death? The only plausible reason for me is that Stannis was waiting for Robert's death without any legitimate children so Stannis could claim the throne.
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Post by Iakus on May 23, 2019 13:10:30 GMT
It's all hype and headcanon (like how people like the Shepard in their heads than the one in the actual game) that drives a lot of the Stannis fandom. The Stannis on both the show and the books is a political incompetent with no charisma (as stated correctly by Renly) and given his tendency to burn alive his own men and kill his own relatives with black magic without so much as a trial, he isn't fit to be King of a porta-john, let alone of the seven kingdoms. He reminds me of a male Danaerys but without the excuse of of youth and growing up outside of the kingdoms for the lack of political savyness and naive entitlement. I was in the Stannis camp until he sacrificed his daughter. Then the scum deserved all the failures coming his way. Stannis from the books would NEVER have done that. For practical reasons as well as sentimental ones.
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Post by Pounce de León on May 23, 2019 13:51:10 GMT
Stannis is opportunist prick in the show. Just like medieval power hungry lord. He had nice journey too but I hated character for following through with the burning for weird gods. Not a fan of fantasy stuff. But from acting and general other character that was a very believable one. In comparison I feel Davos was "overplayed" - Stannis was acted like a badass with reservation and very professional. What I liked with show Stannis - apart from red lady god stuff - was how he had no problem taking serious blow and still continue without complaining. There's "ironborn" that whined for less.
Also liked his final scene. Well-acted indeed.
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Post by Noxluxe on May 23, 2019 14:10:47 GMT
I was in the Stannis camp until he sacrificed his daughter. Then the scum deserved all the failures coming his way. Stannis from the books would NEVER have done that. For practical reasons as well as sentimental ones. I'm not quite so sure about that. Martin puts a lot of emphasis on food scarcity when Stannis marches on the Boltons, just like in the show. Starvation, desperation and a religion encouraging human sacrifice to fix everything is a really shitty combination, no matter who or where you are. I have no idea if Martin was in over the decision about Shireen in the show, but I wouldn't discount it entirely. Although I agree with you in principle, the sacrifice would be way more out of character for book Stannis than it is for show Stannis. He was the one who approached Jon Arryn about the matter, who was in a better position to ascertain he truth, who Robert trusted and loved more, and who would be an impartial judge of the matter where any attempt on his own part to de-legitimize Robert's children could be seen as a naked power-grab, seeing as that would make him Robert's heir by default. It doesn't explain his inaction throughout the events of the first book, although the timeline between Jon Arryn's and Robert's deaths wasn't that long. But he didn't do nothing about the issue, and what he did was fairly shrewd and honorable. i know about investigation. But the whole investigation thing didn't mean much since Stannis fled to his lair and didn't say a word to anyone about it. Ned had to start all over again and Robert still died not knowing - very convenient for Stannis. Stannis still did nothing to expose the incest to the world until Stannis could be the only "rightful" heir to the throne. Again, he was the one who originally approached Jon Arryn to get him to expose the incest. A few months later, Jon Arryn is dead, with Stannis having no proof that he was murdered. And a few months after that, after appointing Ned his Hand, Robert is dead too. That isn't a huge span of time to secure your household from assassins and decide who to trust with such insanely dangerous and scandalous information, especially since he's no more practiced at courtly intrigue or connected than Ned is. I don't remember any line where he claims to have ironclad evidence either, which he would need for Robert not to simply brush him off or even punish him for slandering the queen, let alone the danger he would be exposing himself to from the Lannisters themselves. Both of which are obviously why he recruited Jon Arryn in the first place. Otherwise, I'm not nearly as certain as you are that Robert would give a fig what paranoid reservations Stannis had about his wife. The two of them really didn't see eye to eye, and any conversation or issue we hear about them having had in the past ended with at least one feeling outraged and humiliated. And if you remember, while you're just simply speculating about Stannis secretly plotting to take the throne out from under Robert, Renly explicitly wanted to do it and crown himself, even before learning anything untoward about Cersei. I don't see any reason whatsoever why Stannis would see him as a trustworthy ally in this. You're right that the weirdest thing is that he didn't contact Ned as soon as he was appointed but again, Ned was only Hand for a few weeks before his imprisonment, and Dragonstone is a good distance away. And I never got the sense that the two of them had a close relationship, aside from recognizing each other as principled men.
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Post by HYR on May 23, 2019 14:34:18 GMT
Wait, what did people like about Stannis? He was so drab IMO... 1: Stephen Dillane 2: Stephen Dillane's voice I liked Stannis well enough in the books, and he has moments of seeming to be the most grounded and focused of the king claimants, usually thanks to the fact that he really does spend a lot of time receiving and accepting counsel from Davos, Melisandre and Jon. But Stephen Dillane gave him life and personality way beyond what he was on paper. Every word out of his mouth was both badass and bone-dry. And unlike Daenerys he never appeared to be presented as a perfect savior. Just a bitter man with strong principles and flaws for all to see, whose merits were genuinely weighed against his fanaticism instead of being blown out of proportion. Also, any character human enough to sport a receding hairline on television automatically gets a few likes from me. warsandpoliticsoficeandfire.wordpress.com/2017/05/31/iron-bends-the-surprising-flexibility-of-stannis-baratheon/ Oh, that I totally get. Style/appearance was on-point.
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Post by Iakus on May 23, 2019 15:01:33 GMT
Stannis from the books would NEVER have done that. For practical reasons as well as sentimental ones. I'm not quite so sure about that. Martin puts a lot of emphasis on food scarcity when Stannis marches on the Boltons, just like in the show. Starvation, desperation and a religion encouraging human sacrifice to fix everything is a really shitty combination, no matter who or where you are. I have no idea if Martin was in over the decision about Shireen in the show, but I wouldn't discount it entirely either. Although I agree with you in principle, the sacrifice would be way more out of character for book Stannis than it is for show Stannis. Shireen was the last true-born Baratheon, and thus the legitimate queen of the Seven Kingdoms should Stannis fall, based on what he knows. Sacrificing her would undermine everything he's fighting for. She was the future of House Baratheon to him. Heck when he went off to fight the Boltons, he left Shireen at the comparative safety of Castle Black for just such a reason! In fact, Stannis left written instructions to Ser Justin Massey when he's sent to Braavos to recruit an army of sellswords that, should he receive word Stannis has been killed, he was to continue to recruit an army to put Shireen on the Iron Throne. Not to mention he was very well aware of the morale hit that such a sacrifice would have on his people: “A sacrifice will prove our faith still burns true, Sire,” Clayton Suggs had told the king. And Godry the Giantslayer said, “The old gods of the north have sent this storm upon us. Only R’hllor can end it. We must give him an unbeliever.”
“Half my army is made up of unbelievers,” Stannis had replied. “I will have no burnings. Pray harder.”
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Post by Iakus on May 23, 2019 15:04:45 GMT
Also, Stannis had character development over the course of the books. He became slightly more reasonable. a bit more empathetic:
"Lord Seaworth is a man of humble birth, but he reminded me of my duty, when all I could think of was my rights. I had the cart before the horse, Davos said. I was trying to win the throne to save the kingdom, when I should have been trying to save the kingdom to win the throne."
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Post by Noxluxe on May 23, 2019 15:37:47 GMT
Also, Stannis had character development over the course of the books. He became slightly more reasonable. a bit more empathetic: "Lord Seaworth is a man of humble birth, but he reminded me of my duty, when all I could think of was my rights. I had the cart before the horse, Davos said. I was trying to win the throne to save the kingdom, when I should have been trying to save the kingdom to win the throne."Absolutely. I'm not disagreeing at all. Just saying that starvation is the sort of thing that makes people do things they'd never otherwise consider, makes them very susceptible to anyone who claims to have a simple way to fix the situation, and only makes them more so as time goes on. His story-arc in the books seem to be going in a more optimistic direction, at least so far as the war in the north is concerned, but I could still see Melisandre getting in his head after months or a year more of campaigning on an empty stomach if the Boltons seem to gain too much of an upper hand.
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Post by ScumbagShepurd on May 23, 2019 15:57:15 GMT
That isn't a huge span of time to secure your household from assassins and decide who to trust with such insanely dangerous and scandalous information, especially since he's no more practiced at courtly intrigue or connected than Ned is. my beef with Stannis is that he didn't hesitate to announce to the world about "such insanely dangerous and scandalous information" once Robert died. He still had none or very weak proof of the incest but that didn't stop him. Then why did it stop him when Robert was alive? "Robert wouldn't believe him" is a shallow explanation. Maybe Robert wouldn't, maybe Robert would, but telling Robert the truth is still better than starting to act when it's too late.
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Post by gervaise21 on May 23, 2019 15:57:34 GMT
If Littlefinger hadn't tried to assassinate Bran Littlefinger didn't try to assassinate Bran; that was Joffrey indirectly through his inept assassin (in the books anyway) or am I remembering this totally wrong?
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Post by gervaise21 on May 23, 2019 16:14:11 GMT
Maybe Robert wouldn't, maybe Robert would, but telling Robert the truth is still better than starting to act when it's too late. The problem with Robert is more that such an assertion would make him a fool and a cuckold and that is something he wouldn't react well to. Whilst Ned might have got away with it, in Stannis' case he probably thought that Robert might kill the messenger before he would believe the message, even if later he had second thoughts and started to realise it was true.
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Post by ScumbagShepurd on May 23, 2019 16:20:17 GMT
Maybe Robert wouldn't, maybe Robert would, but telling Robert the truth is still better than starting to act when it's too late. The problem with Robert is more that such an assertion would make him a fool and a cuckold and that is something he wouldn't react well to. Whilst Ned might have got away with it, in Stannis' case he probably thought that Robert might kill the messenger before he would believe the message, even if later he had second thoughts and started to realise it was true. so not only Stannis is an entitled, bitter child that bitches all the time about people who wronged him in the past (cough Robert cough), but he's also a coward that doesn't really care about the well-being of the kingdom as he claims to do? Stannis is supposed to be all about justice. Yet he didn't do the right thing. Why? Because: -they wouldnt believe me -they could harm me -yadayada Robert iz a meanie which brings us back to my claim that he's just a hypocrite.
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Post by alanc9 on May 23, 2019 17:06:16 GMT
A lot of problems would've been avoided for the Starks and the North if Ned had just listened to Renly instead of strictly following protocol for line of ascension in favor of Stannis. A lot of problems could have been avoided at a lot of points. If Ned hadn't confronted Sersi before getting his family out of King's Landing If Catelyn hadn't kidnapped Tyrion If Littlefinger hadn't tried to assassinate Bran Hell, if Robert had survived the boar hunt! Of course, Littlefinger was actively trying to cause problems.
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Post by Noxluxe on May 23, 2019 17:54:50 GMT
That isn't a huge span of time to secure your household from assassins and decide who to trust with such insanely dangerous and scandalous information, especially since he's no more practiced at courtly intrigue or connected than Ned is. my beef with Stannis is that he didn't hesitate to announce to the world about "such insanely dangerous and scandalous information" once Robert died. He still had none or very weak proof of the incest but that didn't stop him. Then why did it stop him when Robert was alive? "Robert wouldn't believe him" is a shallow explanation. Maybe Robert wouldn't, maybe Robert would, but telling Robert the truth is still better than starting to act when it's too late. Well, once Robert and Ned are both dead the North is in open rebellion, the Lannisters have completely made the capital their base of power and the rest of the country is split between supporting Renly and Stannis, the former not caring one bit whether or not Cersei and Jaime did the dirty. The damage is done. Continuing to keep their indiscretions under wraps would be pointless, while broadcasting it would at least undermine Joffrey and Tywin. And since Ned came to the same conclusion independently, it's likely enough to be true as not to need further substantiation so far as Stannis is concerned. I get what you're saying, but I don't think it's nearly as incriminating as you're trying to make it sound. The situations he was in, both before and after Robert's death and Ned's execution, were more complicated than you're pretending.
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Post by mybudgee on May 23, 2019 19:13:59 GMT
RIP Stannis the Mannis
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Post by Sifr on May 23, 2019 19:17:02 GMT
Littlefinger didn't try to assassinate Bran; that was Joffrey indirectly through his inept assassin (in the books anyway) or am I remembering this totally wrong? In the books, both Jaime and Tyrion independently come to the same conclusion that Joffrey was the one behind the failed assassination attempt on Bran.
Littlefinger lied about owning the dagger and losing it to Tyrion after Jaime was unseated by Loras in the last tourney. Tyrion however claims that he never owned a Valyrian steel dagger (pointing out his size would make it hard for him to use it effectively anyway), but even if he did, why would he risk losing a priceless Valyrian steel relic on a tourney wager, let alone bet against his own brother?
The dagger actually belonged to Robert, as something he owned but never wore and likely didn't even remember having. It's therefore plausible for Joffrey to have gotten access to the dagger without anyone noticing it missing, which backs up his later boast during his wedding that he's "familiar with Valyrian steel".
(Admittedly, it doesn't make much sense why Joffrey would so casually give away the dagger to a random assassin, given the daggers worth and that the Lannisters have been trying to get a Valyrian sword unsuccessfully for centuries? But I suppose we're supposed to chalk it up to him being young, stupid and having a bad case of affluenza.)
Cersei mentions to Jaime that Robert had made some drunken comment about it being a mercy to put down crippled horses, but not crippled children, which their children apparently were witness to. Jaime concludes that he might have gotten the idea to murder Bran to try to impress Robert. The assassin even repeated Robert's (supposed) words during the attempt, claiming that "It's a mercy".
Joffrey might have also gotten the idea to kill Bran after his encounter with Tyrion in the courtyard, having already expressed the desire for Bran to die quickly and annoyance about the wailing of the women and Direwolves keeping him awake. Along with this obvious display of Joffrey's utter lack of empathy, this might explain why he didn't think anyone would be in the room with Bran when he sent the assassin? If you don't understand empathy, of course you won't understand why a mother would want to remain with their injured child.
So yeah, the books painted the picture that Joffrey was most likely the culprit. He might be as well in the show, with Littlefinger only responsible for misdirecting Cat as the agent of chaos that he is, rather than behind the assassination as the Stark's eventually conclude in S7.
(Incidentally, there's a theory that Littlefinger's intended target at the Purple Wedding was actually Tyrion, not Joffrey. Littlefinger needed Sansa widowed because most of his plans for her involved marrying her off and the poison was actually in Tyrion's pie, rather than the wine. Tyrion never ate any of the pie before Joffrey stole it for himself, which occurs right before he started choking.)
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Mr. Rump
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Apr 28, 2024 20:19:57 GMT
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Lavochkin
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Lavochkin on May 23, 2019 19:26:48 GMT
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Dark Helmet
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mybudgee
Fear is your only God
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Post by mybudgee on May 23, 2019 19:30:48 GMT
Yeah, two years to shoot 8 episodes is really rushing things... (HBO was walking into a fucking minefield, there was absolutely no way to satisfy every fan)
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Champion of Kirkwall
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
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Post by Sifr on May 23, 2019 20:07:53 GMT
Yeah, two years to shoot 8 episodes is really rushing things... All the prep time in the world isn't going to matter if the people in charge no longer care about what they're doing, aren't putting any effort into their work or are over-confident that they can get away with half-arsing things because the fanbase will watch it regardless.
All that leads to is weak scripts (full of plot holes, plot-armour and OOC moments), bad production choices (I know the night is dark and full of terrors, but the lighting for Ep 3 was beyond ridiculous) and obvious gaffes (coffee and water bottles left on set) that they'd never have allowed to happen in previous seasons.
D&D clearly got bored of this franchise as they entered the final laps of the race. The result was them crashing into the finishing line, all because they got too distracted rubber-necking at another franchise in the stands.
(Doctor Who S11 had similar issues. The new production team coming in were given two years of prep-time by the Beeb, but when you watch S11, it really doesn't seem like it they had bothered to use that time wisely at all.)
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KSSSSHK, PAYDAY!
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate
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Post by Voluptuous Volus on May 23, 2019 20:26:35 GMT
Yeah, two years to shoot 8 episodes is really rushing things... (HBO was walking into a fucking minefield, there was absolutely no way to satisfy every fan) I think HBO wanted 10 seasons, but Dumb&Dumber said NO. Or so I read it somewhere.
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mybudgee
Fear is your only God
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Post by mybudgee on May 23, 2019 20:41:24 GMT
Yeah, two years to shoot 8 episodes is really rushing things...
All that leads to is weak scripts (full of plot holes, plot-armour and OOC moments), bad production choices (I know the night is dark and full of terrors, but the lighting for Ep 3 was beyond ridiculous) and obvious gaffes (coffee and water bottles left on set) that they'd never have allowed to happen in previous seasons.
I agree about the gaffes, and some illogical/dumb writing. However, most of the characters with plot-armor are dead now; Dany, Jamie, Joras, Sandor/Hound, Mel (Other than Jon, the high King of Plot-armor. Honorable plot-armor mention goes to Arya & Sansa LoL)
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