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Post by naughtynomad on Aug 18, 2017 16:00:09 GMT
I wouldn't mind the option to be there, but it's probably one I wouldn't choose. I can't even play Red!Hawke without getting panicky But for others to try, go for it. I wonder why they never kept the choice that was in most of the trailers: Lead them or fall? Maybe you could have destroyed the Inquisition from within or something like that? The concept art showing a Qunari Inquisitor sitting on the Sunburst Throne seemed to indicate they originally wanted you to be able to seize total power for yourself...
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House Targaryen
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The night is dark and full of terrors, but the fire burns them all away.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: gscott7833
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Post by House Targaryen on Aug 18, 2017 16:34:30 GMT
I wouldn't mind the option to be there, but it's probably one I wouldn't choose. I can't even play Red!Hawke without getting panicky But for others to try, go for it. I wonder why they never kept the choice that was in most of the trailers: Lead them or fall? Maybe you could have destroyed the Inquisition from within or something like that? The concept art showing a Qunari Inquisitor sitting on the Sunburst Throne seemed to indicate they originally wanted you to be able to seize total power for yourself... That's too bad. I want my Inky to be the next god of Thedas.
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Post by XJlock on Aug 18, 2017 16:51:52 GMT
I would not mind if it returned in a future installment.
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Post by kotoreffect3 on Aug 18, 2017 17:42:50 GMT
There should have been a fourth option. I am down with ruthless choices if they are given a logic to them but I don't want evil choices just for the sake of evil choices. I'll take something along the lines of a renegade Shepard.
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House Targaryen
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The night is dark and full of terrors, but the fire burns them all away.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: gscott7833
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The night is dark and full of terrors, but the fire burns them all away.
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Post by House Targaryen on Aug 18, 2017 18:08:47 GMT
Sure why not. I always wanted an evil elf Inquisitor who hated humans and used the inquisition to their own ends. And at the end game of Trespasser, they agree to help Solas out with his diabolical plan to return the world back to the old days of elfy glory. I wanted to play a non-elf Inquisitor who did that! Some Inkys just want to see the world burn.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2017 18:09:53 GMT
I wanted to play a non-elf Inquisitor who did that! Some Inkys just want to see the world burn. Yes, and I would have wanted to see the setting to change as well to something more dramatic and unusual.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Aug 18, 2017 22:42:27 GMT
I was confused by reading "truly evil" and "return" in the same sentence. You can't return to something that has never happened. TRULY evil in DAO would have been helping the Blight and making sure no GW survived to kill the Archdemon. TRULY evil in DA2 would have been to blow up the Chantry AND the Circle. TRULY evil in DAI would have been to save both the GW and Hawke and let the demon army pour through the rift.DA4 must let you side with Solas and dance while the shemlen burn to have a TRULY evil option. I don't know....I think the bolded is just Saturday morning cartoon evil (I'm going to destroy the world!!!) and also completely insane (the darkspawn/demons will likely just kill you too). The italicized is evil...sort of, but more the actions of a ruthless opportunist (assuming it was done by a Hawke who could become Viscount. The underlined is nuts...unless you're an elf, then we roll back around to ruthless opportunist. Truly evil acts - that aren't insane - would, of necessity, impart some kind of future or immediate benefit to the one committing them, wouldn't they? If I'm stuck on an island with a bunch of kids and I decide to kill them to make the food we have last longer so that I can rescued, that's truly evil. If I'm stuck on the same island with a bunch of similarly physically capable adults and I survive by killing them all, that's just ruthless pragmatism. Letting the darkspawn take over, or the demons through the rift would be akin to burning all the food and watching the people on the island starve alongside me. Evil...and insane. I guess I read TRULY as just meaning "very". Very evil doesn't need to make sense and could be self destructive, ala The Joker in Dark Knight. The points you made I'd describe as INTERESTING evil.
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Post by colfoley on Aug 19, 2017 1:18:50 GMT
Being a saint or mustache twirling evil isn't always realistic. Besides the inquisitor can make some truly depraved choices. Making mages tranquil, seizing people's property for personal use,and making deals with Demons.
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Post by isaidlunch on Aug 19, 2017 1:31:30 GMT
Why can't I do anything like this? Sounds more interesting than being trampled on by the powers of southern Thedas despite saving them.
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Post by roselavellan on Aug 19, 2017 2:17:10 GMT
There should have been a fourth option. I am down with ruthless choices if they are given a logic to them but I don't want evil choices just for the sake of evil choices. I'll take something along the lines of a renegade Shepard. Agree with this. I don't see DA fitting into any scenarios which are TRULY evil - that requires a cynicism which, I feel, is just not part of the Dragon Age DNA, and it just wouldn't feel right. I do believe that there is always some kind of heroism to the DA story: even the villains, mostly, have been fallen heroes aiming for a better world somehow. I can see our protagonists being ruthless, or even making some bad or selfish choices (like Morrigan's ritual in DAO), but I wouldn't really like to see DA descend into some kind of depressing pit of cynicism.
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Post by Revan Reborn on Aug 19, 2017 5:08:17 GMT
I find this thread, and poll, rather comical. The reason being Dragon Age has never really had "evil" choices, as the series has never really had a morality system. The only game that came somewhat close to representing that was Dragon Age 2, and even then you are railroaded into being the Champion of Kirkwall.
In general, Dragon Age has been BioWare's most restricted property when it comes to doing truly detestable acts. We are always railroaded on the path of being a hero. In Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic, you could end the game by becoming the Dark Lord of the Sith and ruling the galaxy with an iron fist. In Jade Empire, there were similar consequences if you decided to follow the path of the Closed Fist.
Mass Effect had a morality system, but Shepard could really never go beyond just being an asshole. You still had to save the Citadel. You still had to do the suicide mission. You still have to save Earth. Shepard could do some really detestable things along the way, but nothing that one could truly construe as evil. Half of Renegade Shepard's actions were justified, just over the top.
Dragon Age was never built to really support an "evil" character, and I doubt BioWare will change now. To be quite honest, I wouldn't even really want that option anyway in Dragon Age. Not only would actually supporting such a path be an incredibly expensive endeavor, but we would fall back into the issue of having only two options in the game, much like all the previous games I mentioned.
I prefer to have a range of options that are shades of gray, rather than "good" choice and "evil" choice. That's not to say that I wouldn't like a character that's more morally ambiguous and not "good" by default. I just believe expecting a downright "evil" character in Dragon Age is silly and unrealistic.
The likelihood of BioWare actually doing this is almost 0%. It doesn't matter how many believe this is a good idea.
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Post by Warrick on Aug 19, 2017 7:43:53 GMT
I find your reply rather comical. Read the first paragraph of the OP and you'll learn we're not limiting the conversation to DA, we're looking at all Bioware games.
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Post by jackdruthers on Aug 19, 2017 11:30:14 GMT
What about something like they did with Darkspawn Chronicles? The player could be a Commander from one the factions fought in Inquisition.
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Post by Revan Reborn on Aug 19, 2017 15:53:31 GMT
I find your reply rather comical. Read the first paragraph of the OP and you'll learn we're not limiting the conversation to DA, we're looking at all Bioware games. I'd say to read the thread title and recognize we are in the Dragon Age sub-forum, but it's clear the art of reading has been lost on you long ago...
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Aug 19, 2017 16:32:53 GMT
I find this thread, and poll, rather comical. The reason being Dragon Age has never really had "evil" choices, as the series has never really had a morality system. The only game that came somewhat close to representing that was Dragon Age 2, and even then you are railroaded into being the Champion of Kirkwall. In general, Dragon Age has been BioWare's most restricted property when it comes to doing truly detestable acts. Hey, now. Taking a piss on the Sacred Ashes of Andraste in DAO was pretty detestable. If you had Leliana or Wynne in the party, they fight you over it. And the reward for taking a piss is pretty awesome, so it's not like Bioware were trying to discourage you or anything. But as you are agreeing with a point I made earlier, I guess I can't argue too much with the rest of your reply. The yardstick I use for evil done right is ME OT Renegade, particularly ME1 and ME2, and any Bethesda RPG. Bethesda does a much better job at player agency, at the cost of story. I haven't played any Star Wars franchise stuff since Jedi Academy, so can't say as to that, but I can believe that Bioware did a great job with the Dark Side, interpolating from ME.
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Post by Warrick on Aug 19, 2017 17:01:47 GMT
This thread had me thinking about SWTOR so I redownloaded it and did Korriban. Goddamn I have more fun with Tremel and Baras and leaping at klorslugs than with 75% of Inquisition. I wish DA4 takes some cues from the sith warrior story, it's not surprising but it's solid. Read this review, it's worth it. From now on I'll do with your posts what you've done with the OP - I'll just look at the name and assume the content is not worth reading. Bye bye now
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion
Origin: BlackSassyWolf
XBL Gamertag: BlackSassyWolf
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Post by midnightwolf on Aug 19, 2017 17:11:46 GMT
Yes....If only to make the World and characters feel more realistic. Despite all of the Demon's running around, Inquisition feels far too Disney for me. When compared to the other games, especially Origins.
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Post by Revan Reborn on Aug 19, 2017 21:43:23 GMT
Hey, now. Taking a piss on the Sacred Ashes of Andraste in DAO was pretty detestable. If you had Leliana or Wynne in the party, they fight you over it. And the reward for taking a piss is pretty awesome, so it's not like Bioware were trying to discourage you or anything. But as you are agreeing with a point I made earlier, I guess I can't argue too much with the rest of your reply. The yardstick I use for evil done right is ME OT Renegade, particularly ME1 and ME2, and any Bethesda RPG. Bethesda does a much better job at player agency, at the cost of story. I haven't played any Star Wars franchise stuff since Jedi Academy, so can't say as to that, but I can believe that Bioware did a great job with the Dark Side, interpolating from ME. You can do some rather outrageous things, but I'd never call any of those acts "evil." Loghain was far worse than the HoF could ever be, and I wouldn't really call him "evil" either. There aren't really any black and white characters in Dragon Age, as the franchise was never built to support it. Now, quite a few characters have serious issues. However, there are shades to all of them. If you haven't played KOTOR, you are missing out on one of BioWare's best RPGs. Nothing in the Mass Effect trilogy even comes close to how evil you can be in KOTOR. You literally can betray virtually everybody, make them suffer, and take over the galaxy if you so choose. I doubt that level of player agency will ever be achieved in a future BioWare game. In DAO your warden could choose to kill Isolde, Conner, kill your companions, let Jowan out, side with werewolves or elves even when the nicest option would be compromise, destroy the ashes, kill the mages in the circle, choose Branka and Bhelen and still be a hero. It was nice to have those options. If you choose to kill Conner Alistair yells at you which is nice, your companions will disagree with you. Small choices, yes. I'd like my character to be more grey, not always make the right or good choices, but try hard too and sometimes fail. Let a village burn as a consequence. And still be a hero. Isolde wasn't exactly "innocent." Connor had become possessed by a desire demon and would have killed everyone in Redcliffe. Letting Jowan free is hardly an evil act, considering when you next see him in the quest "Jowans Intention," he's protecting refugees. Jowan's only crime was using blood magic. Choosing either werewolves or elves isn't "evil." Destroying "Andraste's Ashes" could only be construed as evil if you are a devout follower of the Chantry. At best, it's incredibly disrespectful. Most of the mages at the circle had been possessed by demons, so again not evil. Branka and Bhelen are unethical and only care about their ambition, but are not evil. I'm all for future protagonists being more morally ambiguous. I think The Witcher 3 does a great job of providing you with a lot of choices that aren't necessarily right or wrong. There is no "perfect" outcome and you are forced to live with your decisions. I just do not want a future Dragon Age to have an "evil" option because it has never existed in this franchise. Again, look to KOTOR or JE if you want to see how "evil" characters are done. But again, the issue with that approach is you really only have two options at that point: the "good" choice and the "evil" choice. I'd personally prefer to have multiple choices of varying degrees, rather than two choices that are extreme opposites.
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Post by OhDaniGirl on Aug 19, 2017 22:44:18 GMT
I wanted to play a non-elf Inquisitor who did that! Some Inkys just want to see the world burn. I normally play "the good guy", so in Inquisition I decided to mix it up. My cannon lady elf did everything she could to dismantle the status quo. She would have loved nothing more than to help Solas. It would be wonderful if that option were available in the future.
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Post by Revan Reborn on Aug 19, 2017 23:18:17 GMT
Yes, I'd like more grey choices with neither good nor evil outcomes but would still like an evil choice. Jowan agreed to poison a man in return a favor, his phylactery I think. He was willing to kill for it, not entirely good. Isolde and Conner, neither are innocent but neither do they deserve to die. The mages some aren't some are possessed the Warden didn't test just killed. Branka I think is wholly evil in her ambition she willingly gave her team to the darkspawn and the darkspawn did unspeakable horrors to them, then she wanted to trap more dwarven souls into the golems in pursuit of power, the very definition of evil imo. I don't know I see evil there. I have played KOTOR but not the evil path. Like I said I prefer grey instead of wholesale evil but would like that option. We can at least agree on the fact that more gray choices would be ideal. I don't want our character to be default good, but I don't want our character to be "evil" either, for the sake of player choice. At the same time, you have to recognize Jowan was trying to escape becoming tranquil to the templars. Deciding to kill is definitely not the right choice, but I can also understand his motivations and desperation. Isolde cared nothing for the citizens of Redcliffe and put all of their lives in jeopardy due to her selfishness. Connor's life is ruined whether he lives or dies. Just look at his fate in DAI if you allowed him to live. I could be mistaken, but in the event of a crisis, I believe all mages are to be purged in a compromised circle. Yes, not all the mages were showing signs of possession. However, given that there were demons everywhere, they could have succumbed to demons at any time. As I said, Branka is unethical. All she cared about was her work. She's the equivalent of a "mad scientist." Is she a detestable person? Sure. However, is she outright evil? I think that's debatable. I certainly wouldn't want to have tea with her. If BioWare had unlimited resources to dedicate to an evil option, I wouldn't be opposed to it. Knowing that is not reality, we have to pick and choose what we get. If BioWare tried to do a true "evil" option, like KOTOR and JE, it would lead to less choices for the player. That also means less replay value and less agency over our characters. That, in my opinion, is not a win-win situation. I just prefer to have all morally ambiguous choices with your character being neutral initially. Through your actions and choices that you choose, that can tip your leaning to being "good" or "bad," but you are not either by default and you can go to neither extreme.
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Post by Revan Reborn on Aug 19, 2017 23:34:19 GMT
I don't disagree with you except with Branka who is pure evil. Jowan has my sympathies because he is a fool and doesn't have the ability to understand his actions nor the consequences. Mages also have my sympathies. And yes we are in agreement with wanting morally grey characters. Exception is that I would like the option for evil too or to have the ability to move your character in that direction or not. May not take it but would like it. I don't like Branka anymore than you do. I ended her life for her despicable actions. I just wouldn't necessarily construe her as "pure evil." Either way, her actions are hers alone and not the HoF's actions. As I said, I wouldn't be opposed to an "evil" option if it was financially feasible. BioWare has a word limit for their games and can offer only so many choices. As a result, I'd rather they focus on giving us as much variety as possible, instead of just two choices: good and evil.
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House Targaryen
N5
The night is dark and full of terrors, but the fire burns them all away.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: gscott7833
Prime Posts: 1,584
Posts: 4,535 Likes: 10,214
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The night is dark and full of terrors, but the fire burns them all away.
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Post by House Targaryen on Aug 19, 2017 23:46:31 GMT
Some Inkys just want to see the world burn. I normally play "the good guy", so in Inquisition I decided to mix it up. My cannon lady elf did everything she could to dismantle the status quo. She would have loved nothing more than to help Solas. It would be wonderful if that option were available in the future. Elves and Quanari would certainly have individuals who would love to see human empires fall, especially elves.
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Post by Revan Reborn on Aug 20, 2017 0:03:04 GMT
Bolded: What does that mean? I haven't heard that before. Word limit as in limit on the number of words they can put in a game? Wow, if that is so, how do they do such a good job with characters and story. BioWare has a fixed budget when it comes to dialogue. They can only have so much dialogue that can be voiced. As a result, while it's nice to assume BioWare can just do everything it wants, that's not the reality. BioWare has limited resources, and I'd rather those resources be used as efficiently as possible. This is why I'm against the idea of an "evil" choice. It really has no precedent in the franchise and it would lead to the binary issue that earlier BioWare titles had, which had a legitimate "evil" option.
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Post by Saboru on Aug 20, 2017 1:13:58 GMT
I'm not a massive fan of shoehorning in concepts that make not a whit of sense because they worked well in a completely different game. And that is exactly what this looks like.
Yes, the route of the murderous bastard made perfect sense in Baldur's Gate. And the Star Wars stuff, oh yeah, that has plenty of scope for various breeds of power crazed despot. But there's obvious thematic reasons why it fits them. And yes, if you're prepared to dislocate your common sense you can wrestle it into every game in creation that offers any sort of moral choice. That doesn't make it a good idea. Unless you have a sensible and satisfying plot path of evil to follow - and I mean one that builds on and reinforces your story, not a bad welding job - then don't bother.
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Post by naughtynomad on Aug 20, 2017 9:33:35 GMT
I'm not a massive fan of shoehorning in concepts that make not a whit of sense because they worked well in a completely different game. And that is exactly what this looks like. Yes, the route of the murderous bastard made perfect sense in Baldur's Gate. And the Star Wars stuff, oh yeah, that has plenty of scope for various breeds of power crazed despot. But there's obvious thematic reasons why it fits them. And yes, if you're prepared to dislocate your common sense you can wrestle it into every game in creation that offers any sort of moral choice. That doesn't make it a good idea. Unless you have a sensible and satisfying plot path of evil to follow - and I mean one that builds on and reinforces your story, not a bad welding job - then don't bother. Having a brutal Inquisitor who would stop the breach by any means necessary, no collateral damage being too great, etc would have made perfect sense. This is a BioWare game. People expect to have the ability to roleplay it how they choose. This is what adds replayability. When it's lacking, it's a big deal.
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