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Post by Tilarta on Sept 25, 2017 8:17:24 GMT
While tracking down the Ancient Angaran AI , I found a few Kett log entries that refer to their discovery as being a technological abomination, to get the information they want and then destroyed afterwards. Which makes me wonder, do they hate technology? It would be quite unusual if they did so, because they have to use it for their bioconversion process, not to mention their ships, weapons, computers, etc. After all, it's not like the Collectors who use bioorganic everything. I'm sure the Kett would love to have that technology, to make their ships and devices biologically the Kett species. Let's hope they never encounter a sentient organic starship species.......
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Post by mannyray on Sept 25, 2017 13:04:00 GMT
While tracking down the Ancient Angaran AI , I found a few Kett log entries that refer to their discovery as being a technological abomination, to get the information they want and then destroyed afterwards. Which makes me wonder, do they hate technology? It would be quite unusual if they did so, because they have to use it for their bioconversion process, not to mention their ships, weapons, computers, etc. After all, it's not like the Collectors who use bioorganic everything. I'm sure the Kett would love to have that technology, to make their ships and devices biologically the Kett species. Let's hope they never encounter a sentient organic starship species....... The Kett were fairly pedestrian enemies painted in broad strokes, so this is a good question over morning coffee. I think the only thing they apparently fear, tech-wise is artificial intelligence, one thing they have in common with Milky Way species. If Bioware had made some enemies with depth, this could explain, partially, why the Archon is apparently going rogue in his desire for ultimate power over the Heleus vaults and his fascination with Ryder's SAM. The fact that SAM seems so cutting edge to them is an indicator that the Kett may simply have a fearful stance against machine intelligence. One other indicator is the absence of simple Virtual Intelligences on their vessels, unlike on the Nexus.
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Post by KaiserShep on Sept 25, 2017 17:58:21 GMT
I thought it was because they abhorred AI specifically.
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Post by guanxi on Sept 25, 2017 19:59:00 GMT
The Kett are either pre or post singularity but who knows how advanced they really are given how undercooked the writing was. Whether that distrust of AI is grounded merely in theory and fear of the unknown like us or in experience of fighting for survival against an overwhelming force of hostile AI species like the Leviathans and Protheans I guess we'll probably never know.
If it is the latter they are potentially significantly more advanced then we are and re-introducing unshackled AI into their galaxy if they've presumably spent mellenia fighting it is not going to win you any friends.
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Post by UutIVvdPw7END0Ef on Sept 25, 2017 20:22:25 GMT
They aren't exactly technophobes, the Kett believe in genetic superiority rather than using technology, which is why they invade other galaxies and harvest genes to further perfect themselves, that's also why Primus is dissatisfied with The Archon's obsession to control the Remnant rather than focusing on harvesting genes.
Directed/Experimental Evolution is a great topic in Transhumanism and usually used in Cyberpunk games.
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Post by Otter on Sept 25, 2017 20:37:34 GMT
"Mainstream" kett culture appears to dislike, or at least intensely distrust, anything that can't be completely controlled*. This crops up in a few different forms: in the Archon's notes about the Milky Way species, he commends turians for their group mentality, asari for taking what they need from others ("Something as important as reproduction should not be left to chance."), and notes that humans' ambition will be useful as long as they figure out how to make sure that it's group ambition rather than individual ambition. The Primus and her faction think that his obsession with remnant technology is outright heretical. It's probably also why they use animals like wraiths and fiends rather than mechs: beasts can be trained and can feel loyalty to their handlers, but, as Tali and Engineer Shepard demonstrate, it's relatively easy to commandeer and reprogram a robot. With that in mind, it makes sense for them not to like AIs. It's an old adage that you can never predict the behavior of something smarter than you, and AIs are smarter than their creators by their nature. In fact Blue Box AIs like SAM and EDI rely on quantum uncertainty to simulate sapience, meaning that it is literally impossible to predict their behavior with 100% accuracy, even if you are smarter than them. So it's not really that the kett are technophobic (except in a literal sense, I suppose), it's more that they don't want to trust something important to something that could potentially betray them. In this respect (and a lot of others, come to think of it), they're a lot like another species of Catholic Space Nazis. *This feeds into my crack theory that they're actually the qunari, several centuries after having discovered genetic engineering, but that's neither here nor there.
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Played Anthem finally. So... yeah.
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Post by mannyray on Sept 25, 2017 20:43:28 GMT
They aren't exactly technophobes, the Kett believe in genetic superiority rather than using technology, which is why they invade other galaxies and harvest genes to further perfect themselves, that's also why Primus is dissatisfied with The Archon's obsession to control the Remnant rather than focusing on harvesting genes. Directed/Experimental Evolution is a great topic in Transhumanism and usually used in Cyberpunk games. The thing is they embrace cutting edge tech to perpetuate genetic superiority. The issue is with inorganic artificial intelligence. It's a wierd mindset to us, perhaps, seeing a species that embraces tech but only when integrated with or used as a tool to manipulate living tissue. If there was a real script this would have made an interesting jumpoff point in building the Kett as a people.
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Post by Tilarta on Sept 25, 2017 20:44:58 GMT
I think the Archon was only interested in SAM because it gave him a means to interface with the Remnant technology, something they never managed to do prior to the arrival of Ark Hyperion. Odds are when he got what he wanted, SAM would have been destroyed, along with the Angaran AI (in my version, they're in the same room).
I think what the Archon was planning was to use the Remnant planet/vault network to do a mass conversion of all the species in the Andromeda galaxy into Kett.
It would be unfortunate for the Kett if they ever ended up in the Milky Way. In my version, the Geth were welcomed into the galactic community and the Reapers ended their war. Imagine a Kett Archon telling a combined Reaper/Geth fleet the Kett don't like AIs.......
I do wonder where the Kett came from, the dialogue suggests they move between galaxies. But given that the communication with the Andromeda Archon are all audio transmissions, it would imply that the Kett forces take time to travel between galaxies and simply sending more Kett to Andromeda, either as reinforcements or to check that the Archon is being obedient would take a lot of time. Probably hundreds of years, given that the Kett haven't received any additional troops since their arrival. Which would make conversion a high priority, if they can't make more Kett, they'll eventually loose the battle through simple attrition alone. Look at how many Kett are attrited every combat engagement. And that's just personally, the Angara have been doing it for quite a while now.
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Post by rapscallioness on Sept 26, 2017 2:02:58 GMT
That was one creepy, crazy AI, though.
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Post by Guts on Sept 26, 2017 2:59:53 GMT
They aren't exactly technophobes, the Kett believe in genetic superiority rather than using technology, which is why they invade other galaxies and harvest genes to further perfect themselves, that's also why Primus is dissatisfied with The Archon's obsession to control the Remnant rather than focusing on harvesting genes. Directed/Experimental Evolution is a great topic in Transhumanism and usually used in Cyberpunk games. When it comes to the Kettle being all "#KettMasterRace", I kinda wish that the Archon led a particularly fanatical branch of the Kett military, I mean look at Fallout 1 and the super mutants, in the Master's army, the super mutants were fervently loyal to him and his vision, the Lieutenant (Voiced by the late Tony Jay) was very contemptuous towards humans, viewing them as less than slugs, but with Fallout 2, you find out that not all super mutants are bad, Marcus for instance was a pretty cool dude. It'd make the Kett much less one-dimensional.
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Post by Tilarta on Sept 26, 2017 4:30:30 GMT
Well, there is enough data to suggest being converted to a Kett is not only a physical transformation, but a mental one. I found a few scattered logs which referenced a Kett having nightmares or memory resurgence. I assume these were echoes of the person they used to be resurfacing.
Sjefa also mentions that when the preprocessing is complete, the subject has lost their free will, so they voluntarily agree to become Kett because they aren't thinking independently anymore, Lexi also states that when the full conversion is done, the person they used to be ceases to exist. And I examined the logs in the Kett classrooms, they were all about instilling the Kett mindset in the approved subjects. The Cardinal even states that she finds it incomprehensible other species should resist being converted, as if being converted is a generous gift and should be appreciated by anyone who is selected to receive it.
My theory is that the genetic modification also gives the converted subject the thought processes/outlook of the Kett. And that the Archon is questioned not because his ideas are radical, but that he is exercising his right to free will instead of obeying orders/complying with Kett doctrine.
As far as EDI's motivations go, she thought like any organic, I have free will and intend to keep it, plus the Reapers are slaughtering my allies. The hate in her voice when she declares the Reapers disgusting is quite evident. And if an attempt to take away her right to make her own choices is made, she'll naturally resist it. Mass Effect 3 suggests she's self-improved to the point where she can't be controlled, because she retaliates with a counterinsurgency program when Cerberus attempts this.
Maybe that's the true reason the Kett hate artificial lifeforms, because they can't use their conversion technology to remove their free will and make them compliant.
As for the Fallout supermutants, there are two kinds, the dumb kind and the smart kind. Fawkes, Marcus, Tabitha, Lilly and assorted others are from the smart group. Most supermutants though are from the dumb group and are easily lead or just follow simple instincts. Strong and Mean are the only dumb supermutants who are known to be friendly/congenial.
The Nightkin are more complicated, the conversion process causes a split personality to exist, one personality is the intellect, the other is the emotions. There is a way to cure this state, but it only worked on one Nightkin and it did erase both of his pre-existing personalities/memories in the process.
The Master's theory is that the FNV conversion was compromised by those who were exposed to radiation and other real world factors, so in order to create smart supermutants, he needed candidates who had not experienced this, basically, anyone who'd been sealed inside a Vault for their entire life. Fawkes and Lilly were two of these.
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Post by Element Zero on Sept 26, 2017 4:49:05 GMT
I thought it was because they abhorred AI specifically. Exactly so. If they were technophobes, they'd not have a vast intragalactic empire. We know nothing of the origins of their species, or how they came to their current path. They may have had bad experience with AI in their past, as most advanced sci-fi civilizations do. The dangers of AI, and the fear of it, are not new themes in ME, other sci-fi, or even real life.
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Post by Element Zero on Sept 26, 2017 4:52:15 GMT
I think the Archon was only interested in SAM because it gave him a means to interface with the Remnant technology, something they never managed to do prior to the arrival of Ark Hyperion. Odds are when he got what he wanted, SAM would have been destroyed, along with the Angaran AI (in my version, they're in the same room). I think what the Archon was planning was to use the Remnant planet/vault network to do a mass conversion of all the species in the Andromeda galaxy into Kett. It would be unfortunate for the Kett if they ever ended up in the Milky Way. In my version, the Geth were welcomed into the galactic community and the Reapers ended their war. Imagine a Kett Archon telling a combined Reaper/Geth fleet the Kett don't like AIs....... I do wonder where the Kett came from, the dialogue suggests they move between galaxies. But given that the communication with the Andromeda Archon are all audio transmissions, it would imply that the Kett forces take time to travel between galaxies and simply sending more Kett to Andromeda, either as reinforcements or to check that the Archon is being obedient would take a lot of time. Probably hundreds of years, given that the Kett haven't received any additional troops since their arrival. Which would make conversion a high priority, if they can't make more Kett, they'll eventually loose the battle through simple attrition alone. Look at how many Kett are attrited every combat engagement. And that's just personally, the Angara have been doing it for quite a while now. I never got the impression that the kett are intergalactic. Their technology doesn't seem sufficiently advanced to make such a trip. Everything I read, heard and saw suggests that they are native to another region of Andromeda, and have been kettifying Andromeda for many, many centuries.
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Post by Tilarta on Sept 26, 2017 7:50:11 GMT
The records found on the Remnant planet imply that the Andromeda galaxy was devoid of sentient life before they arrived, that the Angara were created specifically to give this galaxy a sentient species. If this is accurate, then the Kett were not present at this time.
The Angara also mention the Kett "arriving", as though they simply hadn't been encountered before. At their current stage of exploration, the Angara occupy most, if not all of the Andromeda galaxy, so it's improbable they wouldn't have noticed the Kett presence before their first encounter. Especially given how forceful the Kett are in announcing their intentions.
The Kett technology may not be advanced, but I think it's enough to make the trip between galaxies, although probably not as fast as a Reaper drive or the Odyssey Drive used for the Nexus/Tempest. I also have a theory that Kett genetics have been altered to exclude the natural aging process. So if that is true, then time has no meaning for them, if it takes centuries to reach a specific destination, then it's acceptable. But it would mean they will never get reinforcements, at least not quickly. Hence why conversion is important, to increase their troop numbers in the galaxy they intend to conquer.
My theory is that the Kett want all life (sentient and animal) to become Kett, so they control everything there is and they don't have competition for their absolute domination of the universe.
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Post by Serza on Sept 26, 2017 10:45:59 GMT
Alright. Now tell me the difference between a galaxy and a cluster.
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To find the secrets of the universe: Think in terms of energy, frequency & VIBRATION -Nikola Tesla
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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Post by Atemporal Vanguardian-Debugger on Sept 26, 2017 13:48:20 GMT
Here we go again... The Kett are a simple enemy. They are genetically based BORG not like the technologically based Star Trek Borg. Anything that contradicts that is heresy to them.
The Archon is actually a bit of an outcast in my opinion in Kett society. The Kett look upon being above the need of technology so using technology to accomplish a goal is beneath them. The Archons' willingness to use remnant tech to convert the whole Helius cluster to what his people want. Is the only reason the Kett allow the Archon to continue using tech beneath them or to remain in Helius instead of recalling him. Though it does sound like near the end his own people -back at the Kett capital have had near enough of his methods.
Also that people join voluntarily does not sound right -there was a part where I thought the way they reacted was much more akin to Indoctrination. Not a technological form of indoctrination like the Reapers but though genetics maybe that mist in the room where they were waiting for conversion. Or more likely piped in audio form while they were stored being readied to be converted. This slowly eroded who and what they were making them 'want' conversion.
IF the game had continued and been handled better story-wise we may have found the Archon is another Saren -lacking the same fervor though.
Edit: Uncondensed.
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Post by Element Zero on Sept 26, 2017 23:58:26 GMT
The records found on the Remnant planet imply that the Andromeda galaxy was devoid of sentient life before they arrived, that the Angara were created specifically to give this galaxy a sentient species. If this is accurate, then the Kett were not present at this time. The Angara also mention the Kett "arriving", as though they simply hadn't been encountered before. At their current stage of exploration, the Angara occupy most, if not all of the Andromeda galaxy, so it's improbable they wouldn't have noticed the Kett presence before their first encounter. Especially given how forceful the Kett are in announcing their intentions. The Kett technology may not be advanced, but I think it's enough to make the trip between galaxies, although probably not as fast as a Reaper drive or the Odyssey Drive used for the Nexus/Tempest. I also have a theory that Kett genetics have been altered to exclude the natural aging process. So if that is true, then time has no meaning for them, if it takes centuries to reach a specific destination, then it's acceptable. But it would mean they will never get reinforcements, at least not quickly. Hence why conversion is important, to increase their troop numbers in the galaxy they intend to conquer. My theory is that the Kett want all life (sentient and animal) to become Kett, so they control everything there is and they don't have competition for their absolute domination of the universe. I think you've mistaken the Heleus Cluster for the Andromeda Galaxy.
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Post by linksocarina on Sept 27, 2017 0:29:16 GMT
I found the Kett to be interesting as this sort of Romanesque, Religious-bureaucratic behemoth that encompasses a sort of organic version of what the Borg are; genetic superiority though breeding and purity of their lines. Think a sterile race that has gone hog-wild on breeding experiments to make themselves more pure.
They actually make for an interesting backdrop as a villainous or at the very least, amoral and alien species based on their desire for genetic code to make them more harmonized, I think the term was.
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Post by melbella on Sept 27, 2017 1:23:59 GMT
They aren't exactly technophobes, the Kett believe in genetic superiority rather than using technology, which is why they invade other galaxies and harvest genes to further perfect themselves, that's also why Primus is dissatisfied with The Archon's obsession to control the Remnant rather than focusing on harvesting genes. Directed/Experimental Evolution is a great topic in Transhumanism and usually used in Cyberpunk games. When it comes to the Kettle being all "#KettMasterRace", I kinda wish that the Archon led a particularly fanatical branch of the Kett military, I mean look at Fallout 1 and the super mutants, in the Master's army, the super mutants were fervently loyal to him and his vision, the Lieutenant (Voiced by the late Tony Jay) was very contemptuous towards humans, viewing them as less than slugs, but with Fallout 2, you find out that not all super mutants are bad, Marcus for instance was a pretty cool dude. It'd make the Kett much less one-dimensional.
I just wanted to laugh at the "Kettle" typo (assuming it was a typo, that is, but even if it was intentional) and appreciate the mention of Tony Jay. I'm not familiar with all of his work, but he was magnificent as the voice of Megabyte in Reboot.
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Post by Element Zero on Sept 27, 2017 4:27:19 GMT
When it comes to the Kettle being all "#KettMasterRace", I kinda wish that the Archon led a particularly fanatical branch of the Kett military, I mean look at Fallout 1 and the super mutants, in the Master's army, the super mutants were fervently loyal to him and his vision, the Lieutenant (Voiced by the late Tony Jay) was very contemptuous towards humans, viewing them as less than slugs, but with Fallout 2, you find out that not all super mutants are bad, Marcus for instance was a pretty cool dude. It'd make the Kett much less one-dimensional.
I just wanted to laugh at the "Kettle" typo (assuming it was a typo, that is, but even if it was intentional) and appreciate the mention of Tony Jay. I'm not familiar with all of his work, but he was magnificent as the voice of Megabyte in Reboot.
Tony Jay had an amazing, one of a kind voice. He was also an incredible voice actor. I "met" him through the Legacy of Kain series. That was the first truly cinematic series I'd ever played. It was way ahead of its time with top-shelf VA work and cinematic sequences. It died when Amy Hennig left for Naughty Dog, but at least we got Uncharted out of that move.
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Post by Guts on Sept 27, 2017 6:42:38 GMT
When it comes to the Kettle being all "#KettMasterRace", I kinda wish that the Archon led a particularly fanatical branch of the Kett military, I mean look at Fallout 1 and the super mutants, in the Master's army, the super mutants were fervently loyal to him and his vision, the Lieutenant (Voiced by the late Tony Jay) was very contemptuous towards humans, viewing them as less than slugs, but with Fallout 2, you find out that not all super mutants are bad, Marcus for instance was a pretty cool dude. It'd make the Kett much less one-dimensional.
I just wanted to laugh at the "Kettle" typo (assuming it was a typo, that is, but even if it was intentional) and appreciate the mention of Tony Jay. I'm not familiar with all of his work, but he was magnificent as the voice of Megabyte in Reboot.
Yep, the Kettle bit was a typo (I was typing from my tablet (autocorrect is a bitch), but I remember him quite well from his role as the Liuetenant in Fallout 1 as well as the narrator of "The Bard's Tale" (Which also had the awesome Cary Elwes).
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Post by Guts on Sept 27, 2017 6:50:11 GMT
Alright. Now tell me the difference between a galaxy and a cluster. A star cluster is a group of stars, and these only make up a portion of a galaxy. A galaxy on the other hand contain billions of stars. I personally find the reason why galaxies are held together to be very conflicting, it seems like some say that dark matter holds galaxies together and other say gravity holds galaxies together. (Science community: Y U NO CONSISTENT?)
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Post by Serza on Sept 27, 2017 6:55:06 GMT
Yup. Unfortunately you STILL find people claiming Andromeda sucks because they only added two races in an entire galaxy.
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Post by Element Zero on Sept 27, 2017 7:26:25 GMT
Alright. Now tell me the difference between a galaxy and a cluster. A star cluster is a group of stars, and these only make up a portion of a galaxy. A galaxy on the other hand contain billions of stars. I personally find the reason why galaxies are held together to be very conflicting, it seems like some say that dark matter holds galaxies together and other say gravity holds galaxies together. (Science community: Y U NO CONSISTENT?) Your comment brought this to mind. New thoughts regarding gravity: phys.org/news/2016-11-theory-gravity-dark.htmlThere are many articles out there regarding Prof. Verlinde's theory, "emergent gravity". I just snagged the top result. Our universe is so fascinating, Yup. Unfortunately you STILL find people claiming Andromeda sucks because they only added two races in an entire galaxy. Similarly, we see people wondering "how we get around without Mass Relays". It's a fundamental failure to understand both scope and lore. (I don't intend that to sound harsh. It's late, though, and I don't feel like rephrasing.)
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Post by Serza on Sept 27, 2017 7:46:53 GMT
The Mass Relay and "BOOHOO THEY BREAK LORE" argument is an escalation of the lack of knowledge of galaxies and clusters.
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