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Post by seductivewizard on Nov 9, 2017 16:17:51 GMT
I've been running the amazing human commando kit with double warp (6b) the past coupla days. I don't seem to understand the mechanics of Warp 6a (Escalation!).
1) Does warp's damage over time itself increase by 500% during the duration of warp? If this was the case, it would make sense to take the duration evolution 5a.
2) Does sustained weapon damage, some other power's damage or melee damage to a warped target (which would reduce affected target's life) affect this RATE of escalation? Would this imply that you have to unleash max damage from other sources to get the damage escalated upto 500%? Would hitting 500% be a rare occurrence (very situational)?
Peddroelm or anyone else here know more about this evolution?
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Post by poultrymancer on Nov 9, 2017 17:53:40 GMT
I'm not sure any of the OG reliable playtesters (lenny, peddro et al.) Are still around, but I've been wondering this myself. Not something I can really practically test myself on console.
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Post by shinobiwan on Nov 9, 2017 18:06:42 GMT
Would also like to know if escalation affects sources of damage other than the DOT as has been reported. Peddroleum still pokes in once in a while to grace us with a factoid.
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Post by Symbolz on Nov 9, 2017 18:53:23 GMT
By observation, so take it for what it is worth, it does seem the longer the Warp is affecting the target the greater the DoT damage.
What I can confirm for sure is that the DoT damage is affected by Anti-Armor (Rank 4b). There was significant damage difference when observing the DoT damage with and without Escalation. I haven't tried any testing without Exposed yet, but I would imagine that having Exposed would increase the DoT damage. However I don't have the tools to crunch the numbers so I'm using my eyes and a lot of repeated testing to notice any changes.
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Post by N7Mith on Nov 10, 2017 5:36:29 GMT
It's health based right? So escalation starts at 0% on 100% health, up to 500% at death. (my impression by the description anyway) Any additional dmg would boost escalation, but -going by description- would not be buffed by escalation. (Just the 15% from expose or 35% on armored targets.) But then Ronnie said in the other thread that it's totally annihilating, which means at least 1 of my assumptions is wrong.
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Post by RonnieBlastoff on Nov 10, 2017 11:32:53 GMT
I'm not really sure how warp damage is calculated as a whole, I have PC but am against installing anything like Cheat Engine. Now that the fun is done I may take a crack at it. But the damage on a gold atlas is very high. I stopped shooting one at about 5% ans sure enough dot/warp damage dripped it out. I think whatever ongoing damage gets magnified. I can't say that it starts at 100% health though. I would say the scale is more 50% to 0% just eyeballing, I can't tell anything different at 100% at all.
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Post by N7Mith on Nov 10, 2017 12:46:39 GMT
I'm not really sure how warp damage is calculated as a whole, I have PC but am against installing anything like Cheat Engine. Now that the fun is done I may take a crack at it. But the damage on a gold atlas is very high. I stopped shooting one at about 5% ans sure enough dot/warp damage dripped it out. I think whatever ongoing damage gets magnified. I can't say that it starts at 100% health though. I would say the scale is more 50% to 0% just eyeballing, I can't tell anything different at 100% at all. How did you spec it?
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Post by TheThirdRace on Nov 10, 2017 13:51:24 GMT
There are many unclear factors for Escalation: - When does it get to max?
- How does it scale?
- Is it multiplicative or additive?
- What kind of damage is amplified?
According to the description, it's supposed to be the ongoing damage only. This means Damage per Second. baseDamage * (1 + SumPowerDamage + SumDamageVSDefense) * (1 + SumDebuff + SumDebuffVSDefense)
SumPowerDamage: Adaptive War Amp (30%) Biotic Power Amp III (30%) Apex Training Power Damage (50%) Warp 3 (35%)
SumDamageVSDefense: Warp Anti-Armor (60%)
SumDebuff: Warp Expose (15%)
SumDebuffVsDefense: Warp Armor Defense Debuff (20%)
Health -> 32 dmg/sec * (1 + 145%) + (1 + 15%) = 90.16 dmg/sec Armor -> 32 dmg/sec * (1 + 145% + 60%) * (1 + 15% + 20%) = 131.76 dmg/sec
If Escalation is ADDITIVE: Health -> 32 dmg/sec * (1 + 145% + 500%) + (1 + 15%) = 274.16 dmg/sec
Armor -> 32 dmg/sec * (1 + 145% + 60% + 500%) * (1 + 15% + 20%) = 347.76 dmg/sec If Escalation is MULTIPLICATIVE: Health -> 32 dmg/sec * (1 + 145%) + (1 + 15% + 500%) = 482.16 dmg/sec Armor -> 32 dmg/sec * (1 + 145% + 60%) * (1 + 15% + 20% + 500%) = 619.76 dmg/sec
My own non-scientific conclusionsIn both case, we're talking about a lot of DOT on Armor. The results is a bit less on Health, but still relatively great. I think we can take for granted it only amplifies the Damage per Second. We'd get way too good numbers if it amplified anything else... The scaling maximum must happens before 0%, otherwise it would be very impossible to get to the maximum... My guess is it either tops at 15% or 50%. Given the reports that Escalation "melts" Armor, I'd say it must scale to maximum before 15% or that the scaling isn't linear. If the scaling isn't linear, you would begin to see an important rise in damage past the 75% mark. It's hard to quantify because people actually shoot the enemy so Escalation damage is more or less harder to pinpoint. On top of it, you can only really test it on Platinum since the enemy dies too fast on lower difficulties to give you a good guess work. I've done quite a lot of calculations lately with the MEA MP Builder and I've taken most of the formulas from peddroelm's damage calculator. Normally, the damage would be ADDITIVE given how things are formulated in the description and how other abilities applies this kind of wording. But, I wouldn't be surprised if it's MULTIPLICATIVE either. It's easy to get confused between "Damage VS Armor" and "Debuff VS Armor" as they take different forms in descriptions and effects. Bioware made sure to confuse themselves as best as they could... Being Multiplicative would give more credit to reports of Warp melting things, but then again we know perception can be deceiving... TL;DR: I don't know for sure...
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Post by seductivewizard on Nov 10, 2017 18:04:30 GMT
There are many unclear factors for Escalation: - When does it get to max?
- How does it scale?
- Is it multiplicative or additive?
- What kind of damage is amplified?
According to the description, it's supposed to be the ongoing damage only. This means Damage per Second. baseDamage * (1 + SumPowerDamage + SumDamageVSDefense) * (1 + SumDebuff + SumDebuffVSDefense)
SumPowerDamage: Adaptive War Amp (30%) Biotic Power Amp III (30%) Apex Training Power Damage (50%) Warp 3 (35%)
SumDamageVSDefense: Warp Anti-Armor (60%)
SumDebuff: Warp Expose (15%)
SumDebuffVsDefense: Warp Armor Defense Debuff (20%)
Health -> 32 dmg/sec * (1 + 145%) + (1 + 15%) = 90.16 dmg/sec Armor -> 32 dmg/sec * (1 + 145% + 60%) * (1 + 15% + 20%) = 131.76 dmg/sec
If Escalation is ADDITIVE: Health -> 32 dmg/sec * (1 + 145% + 500%) + (1 + 15%) = 274.16 dmg/sec
Armor -> 32 dmg/sec * (1 + 145% + 60% + 500%) * (1 + 15% + 20%) = 347.76 dmg/sec If Escalation is MULTIPLICATIVE: Health -> 32 dmg/sec * (1 + 145%) + (1 + 15% + 500%) = 482.16 dmg/sec Armor -> 32 dmg/sec * (1 + 145% + 60%) * (1 + 15% + 20% + 500%) = 619.76 dmg/sec
My own non-scientific conclusionsIn both case, we're talking about a lot of DOT on Armor. The results is a bit less on Health, but still relatively great. I think we can take for granted it only amplifies the Damage per Second. We'd get way too good numbers if it amplified anything else... The scaling maximum must happens before 0%, otherwise it would be very impossible to get to the maximum... My guess is it either tops at 15% or 50%. Given the reports that Escalation "melts" Armor, I'd say it must scale to maximum before 15% or that the scaling isn't linear. If the scaling isn't linear, you would begin to see an important rise in damage past the 75% mark. It's hard to quantify because people actually shoot the enemy so Escalation damage is more or less harder to pinpoint. On top of it, you can only really test it on Platinum since the enemy dies too fast on lower difficulties to give you a good guess work. I've done quite a lot of calculations lately with the MEA MP Builder and I've taken most of the formulas from peddroelm's damage calculator. Normally, the damage would be ADDITIVE given how things are formulated in the description and how other abilities applies this kind of wording. But, I wouldn't be surprised if it's MULTIPLICATIVE either. It's easy to get confused between "Damage VS Armor" and "Debuff VS Armor" as they take different forms in descriptions and effects. Bioware made sure to confuse themselves as best as they could... Being Multiplicative would give more credit to reports of Warp melting things, but then again we know perception can be deceiving... TL;DR: I don't know for sure... Thanks for this info thirdrace. From coarse observation on platinum, i do not feel that it is multiplicative, but additive. Pedro could confirm this with some tests maybe. It seems to me that escalation's full DOT potential on its own would not get used often because the squad's also unloading weapons/powers on affected target. Hence, its a bit situational. Weighing these damage numbers and the situational aspect of escalation mechanics for both warp kits (Commando and Gaurdian), I'm leaning more towards double warp for the commando (singularity/warp -->potential to frequently double detonate biotic explosions) and escalation for the Gaurdian. It would probably be the build to maximize damage output for both kits.
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Post by RonnieBlastoff on Nov 10, 2017 21:57:40 GMT
This should be eyeballible on bronze difficulty. With health numbers an really low impact damage, the dot can be estimated. Not 100% sure because im always shooting enemies until they are dead, but warps odd tracking has hit enemies not in my aim and completely drained red health around 50% mark on gold. Im really orgasmic to see invasion, snap sneeze, soldier debuff and warp on platinum behemoths.
Also never take duration, I have yet to see a combo of my own warps.
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Post by RonnieBlastoff on Nov 12, 2017 13:04:22 GMT
There are many unclear factors for Escalation: - When does it get to max?
- How does it scale?
- Is it multiplicative or additive?
- What kind of damage is amplified?
According to the description, it's supposed to be the ongoing damage only. This means Damage per Second. baseDamage * (1 + SumPowerDamage + SumDamageVSDefense) * (1 + SumDebuff + SumDebuffVSDefense)
SumPowerDamage: Adaptive War Amp (30%) Biotic Power Amp III (30%) Apex Training Power Damage (50%) Warp 3 (35%)
SumDamageVSDefense: Warp Anti-Armor (60%)
SumDebuff: Warp Expose (15%)
SumDebuffVsDefense: Warp Armor Defense Debuff (20%)
Health -> 32 dmg/sec * (1 + 145%) + (1 + 15%) = 90.16 dmg/sec Armor -> 32 dmg/sec * (1 + 145% + 60%) * (1 + 15% + 20%) = 131.76 dmg/sec
If Escalation is ADDITIVE: Health -> 32 dmg/sec * (1 + 145% + 500%) + (1 + 15%) = 274.16 dmg/sec
Armor -> 32 dmg/sec * (1 + 145% + 60% + 500%) * (1 + 15% + 20%) = 347.76 dmg/sec If Escalation is MULTIPLICATIVE: Health -> 32 dmg/sec * (1 + 145%) + (1 + 15% + 500%) = 482.16 dmg/sec Armor -> 32 dmg/sec * (1 + 145% + 60%) * (1 + 15% + 20% + 500%) = 619.76 dmg/sec
My own non-scientific conclusionsIn both case, we're talking about a lot of DOT on Armor. The results is a bit less on Health, but still relatively great. I think we can take for granted it only amplifies the Damage per Second. We'd get way too good numbers if it amplified anything else... The scaling maximum must happens before 0%, otherwise it would be very impossible to get to the maximum... My guess is it either tops at 15% or 50%. Given the reports that Escalation "melts" Armor, I'd say it must scale to maximum before 15% or that the scaling isn't linear. If the scaling isn't linear, you would begin to see an important rise in damage past the 75% mark. It's hard to quantify because people actually shoot the enemy so Escalation damage is more or less harder to pinpoint. On top of it, you can only really test it on Platinum since the enemy dies too fast on lower difficulties to give you a good guess work. I've done quite a lot of calculations lately with the MEA MP Builder and I've taken most of the formulas from peddroelm's damage calculator. Normally, the damage would be ADDITIVE given how things are formulated in the description and how other abilities applies this kind of wording. But, I wouldn't be surprised if it's MULTIPLICATIVE either. It's easy to get confused between "Damage VS Armor" and "Debuff VS Armor" as they take different forms in descriptions and effects. Bioware made sure to confuse themselves as best as they could... Being Multiplicative would give more credit to reports of Warp melting things, but then again we know perception can be deceiving... TL;DR: I don't know for sure... We are going to need some real cheat engine numbers. On gold with no power bonuses besides "39~40%" tier 10 character bonus. A warp 4a 5b 6a does overall damage to a Chosen Kett about 30~33% of its HP. With 1.09 data on gold health 2256 thats a guestimate of 676~745 damage for health remaining after warp with the level XX character Tier 10 bonus, on a Chosen on gold. Will be back in a few after I respec and boost up to see if I can one shot a chosen. The 1st is naked damage without escalation, the second naked with. I know its not peddro sexy, but after reading about trojan virus yada yada on the cheat engine page I said fuck that and just decided to remember how much of a game this was, how little people even play anymore anyhow, how much I love the speed and reliability of my PC, and said I'll do it "lazy Ronnie style." Sadly this doesn't really explain anything specific on how escalation works with other damage, DoT, ect. Or how exactly it even scales compared to health. But to me, a enemy that isn't a platinum boss/subboss is usually dead within 2 seconds anyhow no matter what I'm doing.
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Post by cosmo on Nov 13, 2017 6:28:09 GMT
Since you know the estimated life remaining, i think you can eyeball the last couple of seconds and shoot a single bullet with low, known dmg, and see if it lowers life on both targets the same or kills the escaladed one. 500% should be very visible for a 50-100 dmg shot. I'd try it, but out of town a couple days :/ But good experiment nonetheless, ronnie!
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Post by onehitparry on Nov 13, 2017 8:01:59 GMT
Thanks for testing. I'm surprised that Escalation doesn't do more raw damage. But as long as you're doing your own damage or adding in Incendiary Ammo.
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Post by RonnieBlastoff on Nov 13, 2017 10:57:33 GMT
I'm still unsure if 6A is only warp damage or all DoT damage. Or the incendiary round glitch from ME3 is still active, or even intended. I've had a few games where I've managed to draw a Hydra away and solo. The damage on its own (warp) is very unnoticeable on gold+. But coupled with say singularity and/or incendiary DoT. (Full clip 40 Hurricane Siphon I with Incendiary 3 ammo) Its kinda cheating to see that much damage being dealt in just DoT. Also as I said before, just eyeballing warp itself escalates the DoT like crazy the closer an enemy is to death. I've "seen"* progenators on platinum main body go down before the turrets. Even playing with Pugs and Equilizers (please stop this ) *I say "seen" only because there was invasion and other factors killing the progenator at the time. Damage wasn't contributed just to warp. I have another PC that I don't care if it gets infected or w/e from installing Cheat Engine, but the effort to reconnect and update old files is really outweighing the grand prize. But we do need cheat engine numbers. Lol someone and their squad should carry peddro or someone with cheat engine through platinum so they can unlock warp and test this shyt out.
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Post by peddroelm on Nov 13, 2017 14:00:39 GMT
:sigh:
Currently I've lost almost all interest in MEA .. I have all the previous characters, besides the last 2 ones at XX already so it wouldn't take that many games to get to a point where I could take a look at warp .. Maybe I can subject myself to 1 pug game per day for a few days and put this matter to rest if still needed by then ..
I think you're a bit overly paranoid about cheat engine ..It is open software: the code has lot of contributors/ reviewers so it would be very hard for anyone to sneak crap in.. With the help of aryantes the testing process for MEA is kindergarten friendly. Attach CE to MEA. Load the test cheat table in CE. Flip a few config switches and you're good to go ..
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Post by shinobiwan on Nov 13, 2017 15:45:28 GMT
:sigh: Currently I've lost almost all interest in MEA .. I have all the previous characters, besides the last 2 ones at XX already so it wouldn't take that many games to get to a point where I could take a look at warp .. Maybe I can subject myself to 1 pug game per day for a few days and put this matter to rest if still needed by then .. I think you're a bit overly paranoid about cheat engine ..It is open software: the code has lot of contributors/ reviewers so it would be very hard for anyone to sneak crap in.. With the help of aryantes the testing process for MEA is kindergarten friendly. Attach CE to MEA. Load the test cheat table in CE. Flip a few config switches and you're good to go .. You've already contributed way more than this game deserves. If you don't want to test that's fine, end of discussion. Thanks for everything you've already done.
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Post by peddroelm on Nov 14, 2017 9:19:22 GMT
warp test results:
5b expose is broken - does nothing 6a escalation adds an additive bonus of 5 * (1 - CurHP/MaxHP) to the DOT ticks at the time the DOT tick is applied. Target needs to be at 0 HP to get the full 5 bonus. The vsarmor debuff works .. Detonator multiplier = 1
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Post by monk on Nov 14, 2017 10:22:21 GMT
Expose not working isn't good. With no further patches, I wonder if the remaining MP Team can do anything about that? Thanks for testing peddroelm by the way
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Post by cosmo on Nov 14, 2017 11:01:53 GMT
Thanks for taking the time, pedro! Yeah, expose not working sux, i think everybody took that evolution.
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Post by monk on Nov 14, 2017 11:05:46 GMT
Anyone able to grab the remaining MP team to take a look into this?
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Post by Jeremiah12LGeek on Nov 14, 2017 11:17:25 GMT
warp test results: 5b expose is broken - does nothing If I interpreted them right, they stopped doing support other than to unlock the remaining content. It's unfortunate for the people playing that they're releasing them with broken evos. Hopefully it can be fixed with a server side change. Edit: Ninja'd not once, not twice, but thrice!
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Post by RonnieBlastoff on Nov 14, 2017 11:41:06 GMT
warp test results: 5b expose is broken - does nothing 6a escalation adds an additive bonus of 5 * (1 - CurHP/MaxHP) to the DOT ticks at the time the DOT tick is applied. Target needs to be at 0 HP to get the full 5 bonus. The vsarmor debuff works .. Detonator multiplier = 1 Hate to drag you into this one more time, but does escalation increase any damage outside of warp, like incendiary Dot or singularity DoT. Don't think this can be tested in tutorial but its crucial!!! CRUCIALL!!! I would forgive bioware for expose being a new "biowares choice" path in the evolution, if ALL ongoing DoT effects got that additive bonus.
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Post by peddroelm on Nov 14, 2017 11:49:19 GMT
it can be tested under the tutorial and will not consume ammo since early wave .. I'm 99.99% it has nothing to do with anything else. (but will try to provide numbers .. hopefully tomorrow) The vs armor debuff will of course amplify everything vs armor * 1.2 .. Expose also should've helped vs everything but is not actually doing anything .. For sigularity I'll have to level the other char and that will cost you extra .
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Post by RonnieBlastoff on Nov 14, 2017 11:52:35 GMT
it can be tested under the tutorial and will not consume ammo since early wave .. I'm 99.99% it has nothing to do with anything else. (but will try to provide numbers .. hopefully tomorrow) The vs armor debuff will of course amplify everything vs armor * 1.2 .. Expose also should've helped vs everything but is not actually doing anything .. For sigularity I'll have to level the other char and that will cost you extra . Name your price stranger who do I have to strangle... I mean how may I be of service?
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Post by peddroelm on Nov 14, 2017 11:57:28 GMT
just joking
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