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Post by Beerfish on Feb 24, 2024 23:22:17 GMT
Is there life on other planets? What say you?
Lot's of guesses and discussion about this from many experts.
On the one hand we have the overwhelming statistical data saying yes.
200 billion to 2 trillion galaxies.
200 Billion Trillion stars
2 trillion planets on observable space.
Stats say there must be more life and more than likely intelligent life.
However it takes a long time to develop life to our point and the universe is supposedly not old enough for widespread life.
Also time also suggest that some parts of life may have come and gone already.
What say you all? Life elsewhere? Intelligent life?
Now if our rules of physics are correct and hold up and there is no fast than light travel and no way to harness theoretical things like worm holes, there could be intelligent life elsewhere but simply too far away.
Opinions? Theories?
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Post by B. Hieronymus Da on Feb 24, 2024 23:47:16 GMT
I'm very convinced about much the same things you're saying.
Of course there is both life and intelligent life in other places of the Universe.
However, I do not for a second believe that Earth has ever been visited by intelligent aliens, not now and not in ancient times.
I do think we should be careful though, and NOT send any strong radio signal messages directed at close stars. It might be better to be quiet.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 29, 2024 12:38:06 GMT
I do think we should be careful though, and NOT send any strong radio signal messages directed at close stars. It might be better to be quiet. I don't think it matters. Too late to consider hiding. We've been saying we're habitable for billions of years now, and we ourselves have already sent signals that we can't take back. That cat's out of the bag. *** Is there life on other planets? What say you? I think the vastness of the universe statistically means life exists elsewhere. Whether it's hit any sort of sapience yet who knows. The universe is young, very young if you think of it in "child rearing" years. 13.8b ain't that much when compared to the Degenerate Era. All depends on that entirely random chance of molecules aligning into something that'll work as life in a suitable medium. That takes time, we can look at our planet and guesstimate given how fast we progressed, but that's a narrow view to gauge everything. However, there are just so damned many opportunities out there that if it can, numerically it must.
I don't believe Earth is a magical haven of life and our entire universe exists as a barren wasteland. I also don't think we've been visited by ancient aliens, and if any new ones were to take a look it wouldn't be to the tune of UFO-mania, crop circles, and anal probes.
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Post by B. Hieronymus Da on Feb 29, 2024 21:04:50 GMT
I do think we should be careful though, and NOT send any strong radio signal messages directed at close stars. It might be better to be quiet. I don't think it matters. Too late to consider hiding. We've been saying we're habitable for billions of years now, and we ourselves have already sent signals that we can't take back. That cat's out of the bag. Well, there should be a signal/noise problem, as long as we don't direct a radio emission straight at someone. The latter is what I wanted to warn against. I haven't done the math, but the limiting problem for both military radar and infrared scanners is that the energy quanta gets so spread out with distance that it cannot be distinguished from natural noise. I would assume the same applies to radio waves in space? Since there is a 'target' though, there is the possibility of building very large directional listening antennas, and aim them at our sun. That doesn't solve the problem, but moves the feasibility s couple of magnitudes.
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Beerfish
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Post by Beerfish on Mar 8, 2024 1:02:00 GMT
So cool, just saw a short tv news story about them making mini satellites made out of wood. All the components are stored inside no antenna or anything on the outside becasue signals can go through wood.
Also burns up properly on re-entry. Just cool, lo tech over high tech,
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Post by rewindbutton on Mar 15, 2024 16:08:34 GMT
I think this video visualises gravity and space-time surprisingly well.
What if we could see Spacetime? An immersive experience
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Post by q5tyhj on Mar 28, 2024 21:02:04 GMT
Is there life on other planets? What say you? Lot's of guesses and discussion about this from many experts. On the one hand we have the overwhelming statistical data saying yes. 200 billion to 2 trillion galaxies. 200 Billion Trillion stars 2 trillion planets on observable space. Stats say there must be more life and more than likely intelligent life. However it takes a long time to develop life to our point and the universe is supposedly not old enough for widespread life. Also time also suggest that some parts of life may have come and gone already. What say you all? Life elsewhere? Intelligent life? Now if our rules of physics are correct and hold up and there is no fast than light travel and no way to harness theoretical things like worm holes, there could be intelligent life elsewhere but simply too far away. Opinions? Theories? As you say, the numbers pretty much guarantee it. No matter how unlikely or rare life is, it has hundreds of billions of possible planets over almost 14 billion years to arise. It could be that life is pretty common, but intelligent life or technological civilizations are really rare. Or maybe technological civilizations all eventually self-destruct due to e.g. nuclear armageddon, catastrophic climate change, etc. There are lots of possibilities, but I'm still strongly on the alien train: its not a question of if we will discover life on another planet, but a matter of when. We've been extremely limited in our ability to look for life on other planets- for a long time the only exoplanets we could see were gas giants like Jupiter, smaller terrestrial planets orbiting in the "habitable zone" of its star were just too small and dim compared to the star and the larger planets- and are only recently having the technology to actually look for the types of planets that are the most likely candidates to harbor life. So cross your fingers, it could literally happen any day now (or not for a long time, we'll have to wait and see).
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Post by q5tyhj on Apr 1, 2024 15:54:49 GMT
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Post by q5tyhj on May 21, 2024 14:28:28 GMT
I do think we should be careful though, and NOT send any strong radio signal messages directed at close stars. It might be better to be quiet. I don't think it matters. Too late to consider hiding. We've been saying we're habitable for billions of years now, and we ourselves have already sent signals that we can't take back. That cat's out of the bag. *** Is there life on other planets? What say you? I think the vastness of the universe statistically means life exists elsewhere. Whether it's hit any sort of sapience yet who knows. The universe is young, very young if you think of it in "child rearing" years. 13.8b ain't that much when compared to the Degenerate Era. All depends on that entirely random chance of molecules aligning into something that'll work as life in a suitable medium. That takes time, we can look at our planet and guesstimate given how fast we progressed, but that's a narrow view to gauge everything. However, there are just so damned many opportunities out there that if it can, numerically it must.
I don't believe Earth is a magical haven of life and our entire universe exists as a barren wasteland. I also don't think we've been visited by ancient aliens, and if any new ones were to take a look it wouldn't be to the tune of UFO-mania, crop circles, and anal probes.
I think space travel is prohibitively resource-intensive, even for extremely advanced civilizations. I think this is part of the answer to the Fermi Paradox: we don't see widespread evidence of alien civilizations, because space is just so fucking big, even for a civilization that has developed technology that allows them to travel at a significant fraction of the speed of light. On the other hand, there is some evidence that life doesn't take very long to develop- that life developed almost immediately, once conditions on Earth allowed (i.e after the late heavy bombardment and all that craziness), and its possible life developed twice independently on Earth. We also see extremophiles who suggest that life could be far more flexible and adaptable than we thought, and be able to arise on planets that are highly dissimilar to Earth. This is the problem with a sample size of 1, we just don't know what the possibility space looks like.
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Post by skekSil on May 21, 2024 16:02:50 GMT
On the other hand, there is some evidence that life doesn't take very long to develop- that life developed almost immediately, once conditions on Earth allowed (i.e after the late heavy bombardment and all that craziness), and its possible life developed twice independently on Earth. We also see extremophiles who suggest that life could be far more flexible and adaptable than we thought, and be able to arise on planets that are highly dissimilar to Earth. On yet another hand after almost immediate appearance of life on Earth it took another two billion years for first eukaryotes (cells with nuclei) to appear. Then another 500M years to get multicellular first multicellular organisms and then another billion to create complexity we see in Cambrian explosion. On yet another hand it takes only 100M years for animals to get out of water (even faster for plants and arthropods), mere 50M for them to start laying eggs and yet, after that, another 350M years for intelligent species to occur. It seems that while life might be abundant in the universe, some features are actually quite difficult to acquire and might be an evolutionary bottleneck or even a roadblock for intelligent life, especially if we take into account all of the various extinction events that happen rather regularly.
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Post by q5tyhj on May 21, 2024 18:03:24 GMT
On the other hand, there is some evidence that life doesn't take very long to develop- that life developed almost immediately, once conditions on Earth allowed (i.e after the late heavy bombardment and all that craziness), and its possible life developed twice independently on Earth. We also see extremophiles who suggest that life could be far more flexible and adaptable than we thought, and be able to arise on planets that are highly dissimilar to Earth. On yet another hand after almost immediate appearance of life on Earth it took another two billion years for first eukaryotes (cells with nuclei) to appear. Then another 500M years to get multicellular first multicellular organisms and then another billion to create complexity we see in Cambrian explosion. On yet another hand it takes only 100M years for animals to get out of water (even faster for plants and arthropods), mere 50M for them to start laying eggs and yet, after that, another 350M years for intelligent species to occur. It seems that while life might be abundant in the universe, some features are actually quite difficult to acquire and might be an evolutionary bottleneck or even a roadblock for intelligent life, especially if we take into account all of the various extinction events that happen rather regularly. Yeah I think its entirely possible, maybe even somewhat likely, that life is really abundant... but complex, and especially intelligent life is very rare, because it requires so many happy accidents of evolution to get there. So the universe is full of life, just not technological civilizations, and so the rarity of technological civilizations as well as the absurd difficulty of interstellar travel accounts for the Fermi paradox. Possibly. This would be, in my mind, a more satisfying result than some of the other, more depressing solutions to the Fermi paradox.
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Post by q5tyhj on May 21, 2024 18:07:45 GMT
This also seems to imply that given enough time, intelligent life will develop and eventually technological civilizations. Maybe there will be a period in the life of the universe- in, say, 10 or 20 billion years- where there will be sort of a Golden Age for intelligent life in the universe, and maybe then there will be visible evidence of alien life all over the place.
We are early, as Ghost of Fuckit pointed out, the universe is only a baby compared to its future lifespan, deep into the Black Hole era and beyond where we're talking about absolutely stupid numbers like 10^100 billion years or whatever.
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Post by skekSil on May 22, 2024 15:12:56 GMT
as well as the absurd difficulty of interstellar travel accounts for the Fermi paradox As I understand it Fermi paradox isn't really about interstellar travel but about lack of signs of advanced civilizations at all. Even if civilizations don't venture outside of their home systems and the nearest neighborhood they still should observable signs, like increase of output in radio spectrum due to their communications or if such civilization were to build a Dyson sphere its output in infrared spectrum wouldn't match energy output in other electromagnetic (for example visible) spectrums. This also seems to imply that given enough time, intelligent life will develop and eventually technological civilizations. Maybe there will be a period in the life of the universe- in, say, 10 or 20 billion years- where there will be sort of a Golden Age for intelligent life in the universe, and maybe then there will be visible evidence of alien life all over the place. As with all solutions to fermi Paradox, it all comes down to actual values of parameters of said solutions. Dial up parameter A to high and life shouldn't exist at all dial it to low and it should be on every rock, put in a specific value for B and A doesn't even matter. For example, lets assume life is only possible near yellow dwarfs like our Sun. These types of stars stay as main sequence stars for about 10B years and then become red giants. If an average time to develop intelligent life is 20B years then life appearing on a planet at all would be a very lucky event, and Earth just won a Jack pot. However how lucky is lucky? There are billions upon billions upon billions of yellow dwarfs in the Universe, if its only one in a million chance there would still be billions upon billions of civilizations. Simply put its too hard to make any useful predictions when you have only one reference point.
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Post by q5tyhj on May 22, 2024 15:40:07 GMT
as well as the absurd difficulty of interstellar travel accounts for the Fermi paradox As I understand it Fermi paradox isn't really about interstellar travel but about lack of signs of advanced civilizations at all. Even if civilizations don't venture outside of their home systems and the nearest neighborhood they still should observable signs, like increase of output in radio spectrum due to their communications or if such civilization were to build a Dyson sphere its output in infrared spectrum wouldn't match energy output in other electromagnetic (for example visible) spectrums. This also seems to imply that given enough time, intelligent life will develop and eventually technological civilizations. Maybe there will be a period in the life of the universe- in, say, 10 or 20 billion years- where there will be sort of a Golden Age for intelligent life in the universe, and maybe then there will be visible evidence of alien life all over the place. As with all solutions to fermi Paradox, it all comes down to actual values of parameters of said solutions. Dial up parameter A to high and life shouldn't exist at all dial it to low and it should be on every rock, put in a specific value for B and A doesn't even matter. For example, lets assume life is only possible near yellow dwarfs like our Sun. These types of stars stay as main sequence stars for about 10B years and then become red giants. If an average time to develop intelligent life is 20B years then life appearing on a planet at all would be a very lucky event, and Earth just won a Jack pot. However how lucky is lucky? There are billions upon billions upon billions of yellow dwarfs in the Universe, if its only one in a million chance there would still be billions upon billions of civilizations. Simply put its too hard to make any useful predictions when you have only one reference point. Yep, the Fermi Paradox relates to the fact that we don't see visible signs of alien life even though according to all our best observations and reasoning alien life should exist elsewhere in not only the universe, but our own galaxy (and therefore there should be visible evidence of alien life- evidence which happens to be absent, and contrary to the popular canard absence of evidence is evidence of absence; indeed, that absence of evidence is evidence of absence is a provable theorem of probability theory) But interstellar travel is related to the Fermi Paradox, because civilizations capable of interstellar travel will be more likely to leave visible evidence of their existence- including even their appearance in our own solar system! So interstellar travel is a huge factor to consider, esp since for instance mass colonization via self-replicating probes (which have to travel between star systems) is one of the things we expect to see but do not- i.e. the Fermi Paradox. And the problem with the Fermi paradox is that we can't actually measure the relevant parameters. Well, we couldn't until JWST. So the problem remained purely philosophical and not empirical, since we had little relevant data and a sample size of 1.
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2024 18:24:50 GMT
Me personally I don't take too much stock in the Fermi Paradox. Seems unimaginative and a mostly useless observation. A "why isn't" but there are so many "well because" that it's trivialized.
***
There was one proof of life I thought would be borderline hilarious.
Certain theoretical FTLs would leave observable plumes behind them light-years in length.
Imagine all this collective tension our entire species has built up around alien life only to have some alien lookie-loos driving by us prove it.
"They're doing doughnuts in our solar system. Oh, and now they're learning to parallel park."
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Post by AngryFrozenWater on Jun 21, 2024 10:10:06 GMT
"Hold My Beer" said NASA and Fixed Voyager 1 Because We Said They Couldn't - Anton Petrov.
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Post by q5tyhj on Jun 21, 2024 21:04:24 GMT
"Hold My Beer" said NASA and Fixed Voyager 1 Because We Said They Couldn't - Anton Petrov. this is just awesome, NASA is the boss
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2024 22:38:47 GMT
My new religion based on the below YT video is that god is just a giant Spiral Art toy.
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Post by AngryFrozenWater on Jun 23, 2024 22:49:11 GMT
Yeah, the orbits are intriguing, @ghostoffuckit. The Strange Orbit of Earth's Second Moon (plus The Planets) - Numberphile.
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Post by q5tyhj on Jun 26, 2024 15:22:39 GMT
Old paper (2022), but still good stuff here. Emphasis (bold mine) on that last sentence of the abstract (hype) "Detectability of Chlorofluorocarbons in the Atmospheres of Habitable M-dwarf Planets" Jacob Haqq-Misra, Ravi Kopparapu, Thomas J. Fauchez, Adam Frank, Jason T. Wright, Manasvi Lingam, available on arXiv
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Post by q5tyhj on Jun 26, 2024 15:29:23 GMT
More cool science, this one much more recent: the Subaru Strategic Program survey sort of lucked into observing a pair of merging quasars, one of the oldest/farthest such pairs we've observed. This is important wrt evaluating the "hierarchical structure formation" model of supermassive black hole formation- how do black holes in the early universe get so big so fast? Anyways, gigantic spinning balls of pure gravity, running into one another: "Discovery of merging twin quasars at z = 6.05"Yoshiki Matsuoka, Takuma Izumi, Masafusa Onoue, Michael A. Strauss, Kazushi Iwasawa, Nobunari Kashikawa, Masayuki Akiyama, Kentaro Aoki, Junya Arita, Masatoshi Imanishi, Rikako Ishimoto, Toshihiro Kawaguchi, Kotaro Kohno, Chien-Hsiu Lee, Tohru Nagao, John D. Silverman, Yoshiki Toba May 2024 available, as usual, at arXiv
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2024 0:40:53 GMT
What animal do you think will be the next to develop publicly recognizable sentience and sapience?
'Nother ape or chimp? Cetacean? Octopi? Ravens? Ants? Elephants? The mold growing in that thing you forgot about?
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Post by q5tyhj on Jul 2, 2024 20:43:04 GMT
What animal do you think will be the next to develop publicly recognizable sentience and sapience? 'Nother ape or chimp? Cetacean? Octopi? Ravens? Ants? Elephants? The mold growing in that thing you forgot about? i'm pretty sure there's something in my fridge that is currently in the process of making the jump to intelligent technological civilization
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Post by B. Hieronymus Da on Jul 2, 2024 22:24:29 GMT
What animal do you think will be the next to develop publicly recognizable sentience and sapience? 'Nother ape or chimp? Cetacean? Octopi? Ravens? Ants? Elephants? The mold growing in that thing you forgot about? My beliefs on this, and more generally, on the development and/or evolution of complex, organized systems, regardless if they're organisms, animals, organizations, civilizations or machines, are rather complicated, very much my own (stuff for unpopular opinion), and not easy to describe or explain in short order. But basically I do not believe in that these things constantly develop progressively "upwards". I think they stop, and remain at a static level, unless something special happens, and then they either go away, or change to something different, where they again will stop and remain at a static level. That's as much as I have energy to explain for now. But let's get to the point. I take for granted your meaning was that apes, monkeys, ravens, crows, elephants,.. indeed have publicly recognizable sentience and sapience? Right? We don't need to argue about that. A lot of animals do, IMO. We can fill in racoons, dogs, parrots... Actually, it's hard to think of any mammals or birds which don't exhibit some signs of sentience and sapience? Isn't it? So what's the question here? I don't think fish or reptiles will ever exhibit any greater intellectual powers. It's not a natural development. Their behavior will remain on a level that could conceivably just as well be "programmed", even if it has to be very complex programming. Same with ant societies. There's something weird happening with one ant society in Switzerland, but while it's a new and fascinating step by evolution, it can't really be compared to sapience. And that's a far as I come. There's no non-sapient animal waiting to become sapient. Looking for animals who could possibly take a step "upwards" in development, the obvious candidate is Chimpanzee. It has some manipulative powers with its hands and shows some gifts for language concepts. It's too specialized, but somewhat carnivorous, so must not stay in the forest and chew leaves forever, like the Gorilla. So maybe, or maybe not, it will change? But hardly while Man occupies the niche. Racoons? As far as I know they don't have much language gifts? And are not as intelligent as Chimpanzees. But they have dexterous gifts and highly adaptive behavior, which maybe is the key for it to encounter change?
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Post by skekSil on Jul 4, 2024 20:46:57 GMT
I don't think fish or reptiles will ever exhibit any greater intellectual powers. Why not? Birds are technically reptiles and all tetrapods are in essence land based fish.
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