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Post by Lavochkin on Feb 10, 2017 21:26:23 GMT
Vids on how bright and hot things in the universe can get.
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Post by B. Hieronymus Da on Feb 10, 2017 23:44:40 GMT
In regards to the colonization of Mars:
Despite the fact that actually landing on the Venusian surface is out of the question, Venus seems to have a lot more going for it than Mars does. It's closer than Mars. It has a heavy atmosphere primarily comprised of carbon dioxide. Nearly identical gravity. Etc. I'd say Venus as well but that's because it provides a future stopgap for the colonization of Mercury which I think we desperately need to get to if we ever want to properly colonize the solar system. That is where I picture all space industry at least for the immediate future of colonization of the solar system taking place. It has the raw materials required for actual foundries to be set up and constructed in space, it would be a viable mine for centuries due to its untapped resources, better yet it already has a common crossover with several I'd presume mineral rich asteroids that can be hollowed out for lodging and other facilities. Note I am thinking ultra late game here but I'd support Venus over Mars in terms of actual space settlements just because I think we need to going the opposite way from Mars initially. Once we have ships that can actually crank out a decent speed in the vacuum and not be reliant on just momentum based thrust its a different game, but Venus is within reach of us now. Mercury just a bit beyond it. Plus I dream of the day of a ship actually being created in space to travel through space and I think that day can dawn a lot sooner if viable industry gets going up in space. Here is a article on the subject. phys.org/news/2016-08-colonize-mercury.htmlI think I've already commented the notion of colonizing Venus in an earlier post in this thread? One thing you can do to get your mind sorted out on this, is to consider the difficulties of building such colonies here on Earth. We can't do it. It's not technically feasible. At the most, on the very crazy notion that it somehow could be set up from space ships without landing, such colonies would have a life-span of weeks. And what exactly are the resources available up there in the clouds? The payload cost and difficulties of transporting something to Venus orbit is about the same as Mars. Distance is irrelevant for that question, it's about how deep it is in the Sun's gravity well, in relation to Earth. Colonizing Mercury, the same: Consider the difficulties of building such colonies here on Earth. Everything on wheels, constantly moving to not be cremated? Really? Average 87-88 km per day? And consider the surface of Mercury. It's not exactly smooth. More like totally f***ed up terrain. No. Just no. Finally, the payload cost of moving something to Mercury is the same as getting it all the way to Jupiter. Or about three times as difficult as to Mars. That goes for return trip as well. Putting up a colony on Mars, otoh, is technically feasible. We can imagine how to do it for real. Not just far fetched SF-fantasies. And the situation is massively more stable and predictable. And lower gravity is an advantage. Mars should not be the No 1 goal though, IMO. The Moon is. If we can't build a sustained colony on the Moon, we can't do it on Mars either. We need to develop equipment and methods that are reliable and can solve the various problems. Mars is a very far away. You don't go there without having your act perfectly together.
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Post by B. Hieronymus Da on Feb 11, 2017 0:11:35 GMT
I don't know if you already discussed this but what do you think of this should they go ??? I know they have to start somewhere and other ( Earth like ) planets they have discovered are at least for now to far away. But still there is no atmosphere on Mars and there are more problems they have to face on Mars. And i do not follow it all on the internet and t.v but it is kinda interesting. And also what do you think will they ever travel with the speed of light ??? It will be a huge investment. The return on that investment will mainly be knowledge and ability. Our power to do things. And that can come in handy in the short perspective, like redirecting a comet or asteroid that is on collision course with Earth. For the sake of the future of humanity, I'm convinced we need space technology and space travel. And no, I don't think we will ever move at the speed of light. A pity, of course, so I hope I'm wrong, but I really don't think it will ever happen. But I also don't think that would necessarily stop us. I think it is possible to eventually have self sustaining colonies on Mars and various moons in the Solar system. They will necessarily be very high tech of course, but it should be doable. And we may have large artificial space dwellings in orbit around other planets like Venus and Earth. Traveling to other stars and solar systems will be very long voyages. I think that if it'll be done, it'll be done by space living humans. A population of humans born and living in space. The ship that will make the journey will be similar to their space dwellings. I don't think putting people in hibernation or freezing them is realistic. They'll have to live and work as usual and have their entire self-sustaining environment with them.
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Post by masterwarderz on Feb 11, 2017 0:28:49 GMT
I'd say Venus as well but that's because it provides a future stopgap for the colonization of Mercury which I think we desperately need to get to if we ever want to properly colonize the solar system. That is where I picture all space industry at least for the immediate future of colonization of the solar system taking place. It has the raw materials required for actual foundries to be set up and constructed in space, it would be a viable mine for centuries due to its untapped resources, better yet it already has a common crossover with several I'd presume mineral rich asteroids that can be hollowed out for lodging and other facilities. Note I am thinking ultra late game here but I'd support Venus over Mars in terms of actual space settlements just because I think we need to going the opposite way from Mars initially. Once we have ships that can actually crank out a decent speed in the vacuum and not be reliant on just momentum based thrust its a different game, but Venus is within reach of us now. Mercury just a bit beyond it. Plus I dream of the day of a ship actually being created in space to travel through space and I think that day can dawn a lot sooner if viable industry gets going up in space. Here is a article on the subject. phys.org/news/2016-08-colonize-mercury.htmlI think I've already commented the notion of colonizing Venus in an earlier post in this thread? One thing you can do to get your mind sorted out on this, is to consider the difficulties of building such colonies here on Earth. In relation to Mercury? The 'colony' wouldn't be anywhere relatively anyway near the planet itself, if I was planning the project I'd toss it out at L1 Mercury and if you are unaware of the distance between that and the planet itself its roughly a quarter million miles or so off the dark side. That to me would be the ideal place to put a depot and factory array just because I think it would be an ideal place for initial construction due to the abundance of space junk around its orbit. Everything could be constructed prefab out there, heavier industry could wait until viable lanes down to the planet itself could be established which would take a while and probably be the longest portion of the project outside the construction itself. I am thinking most of the work down on planet would be left to automation and maybe a handful of people in deep crust bunkers that are treated to resist the intense heat and radiation and other painful things that are toxic to human life, it'd be a foundry not a colony is my point. You get the mineral wealth off the planet, ship it up into the factories, crank out what's needed, ship the surplus elsewhere. It to my eye is a vital portion of actual colonization, Mercury provides a immense treasure trove of exotics just from the remedial scans we have done now. Iron and titanium are extremely common, titanium is admittedly the one that caught my eye because of it use in constructing space craft, satellites and such. Mercury is just something we need if we are ever going to actually colonize anything, some spaceborne bit of industry because I hate to tell you this but the Moon isn't going to hold up as a mine to my eye if its the sole supply, its got a lot up there admittedly but it's not got anywhere near the mineral wealth of Mercury. It will eventually be exhausted, assuming that even drilling there proves viable, though god help humanity if we can't even mine the fucking moon, any sort of extra-planetary ventures are sort of fucked then. But I am thinking late game as I said, the Moon would be first, then Venus, then Mercury then it turns about and becomes that bullshit trek to Mars because apparently we need to live on Mars. Mercury though to my assuming that viable space platforms can be designed to weather the situation there? Will be both the easiest and hardest venture, easiest in the vein that nothing permanent will likely need to be planned for the surface itself outside of pit mines and such and harder because everything out there will have to be designed either from what resources are available or prefabricated and transported along with them. It won't be like with Mars where you have to try to live up to the pseudo science of terraforming or anything. You'd just be setting up a series of space stations in a stable orbit pattern in a relatively safe region. Its a factory, not a homestead though. It'd probably be an extremely lucrative place of business though assuming space shipping becomes a thing. Mountains of rare minerals exist out there, never touched, never tapped, never exploited. Assuming we can figure out a faster method of transit of course, having goods take four years or so to arrive wouldn't be viable. That'd be the same reason I'd go after Jupiter, I'd at the very least attempt to get a viable economy going up in space to at least attempt to pay for the actual process of colonization, so I'd make every attempt to go where the money was, to at least attempt to get a fair bit of it. Make it as reliant as possible on what itself can produce, because as you said. Making this shit on Earth is next to impossible, its expensive as well as you said. Having the attempt pay for itself at least makes it less reliant on any particular space agencies budget.
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Post by B. Hieronymus Da on Feb 11, 2017 20:51:23 GMT
I think I've already commented the notion of colonizing Venus in an earlier post in this thread? One thing you can do to get your mind sorted out on this, is to consider the difficulties of building such colonies here on Earth. In relation to Mercury? The 'colony' wouldn't be anywhere relatively anyway near the planet itself, if I was planning the project I'd toss it out at L1 Mercury and if you are unaware of the distance between that and the planet itself its roughly a quarter million miles or so off the dark side. That to me would be the ideal place to put a depot and factory array just because I think it would be an ideal place for initial construction due to the abundance of space junk around its orbit. Everything could be constructed prefab out there, heavier industry could wait until viable lanes down to the planet itself could be established which would take a while and probably be the longest portion of the project outside the construction itself. I am thinking most of the work down on planet would be left to automation and maybe a handful of people in deep crust bunkers that are treated to resist the intense heat and radiation and other painful things that are toxic to human life, it'd be a foundry not a colony is my point. You get the mineral wealth off the planet, ship it up into the factories, crank out what's needed, ship the surplus elsewhere. It to my eye is a vital portion of actual colonization, Mercury provides a immense treasure trove of exotics just from the remedial scans we have done now. Iron and titanium are extremely common, titanium is admittedly the one that caught my eye because of it use in constructing space craft, satellites and such. Mercury is just something we need if we are ever going to actually colonize anything, some spaceborne bit of industry because I hate to tell you this but the Moon isn't going to hold up as a mine to my eye if its the sole supply, its got a lot up there admittedly but it's not got anywhere near the mineral wealth of Mercury. It will eventually be exhausted, assuming that even drilling there proves viable, though god help humanity if we can't even mine the fucking moon, any sort of extra-planetary ventures are sort of fucked then. But I am thinking late game as I said, the Moon would be first, then Venus, then Mercury then it turns about and becomes that bullshit trek to Mars because apparently we need to live on Mars. Mercury though to my assuming that viable space platforms can be designed to weather the situation there? Will be both the easiest and hardest venture, easiest in the vein that nothing permanent will likely need to be planned for the surface itself outside of pit mines and such and harder because everything out there will have to be designed either from what resources are available or prefabricated and transported along with them. It won't be like with Mars where you have to try to live up to the pseudo science of terraforming or anything. You'd just be setting up a series of space stations in a stable orbit pattern in a relatively safe region. Its a factory, not a homestead though. It'd probably be an extremely lucrative place of business though assuming space shipping becomes a thing. Mountains of rare minerals exist out there, never touched, never tapped, never exploited. Assuming we can figure out a faster method of transit of course, having goods take four years or so to arrive wouldn't be viable. That'd be the same reason I'd go after Jupiter, I'd at the very least attempt to get a viable economy going up in space to at least attempt to pay for the actual process of colonization, so I'd make every attempt to go where the money was, to at least attempt to get a fair bit of it. Make it as reliant as possible on what itself can produce, because as you said. Making this shit on Earth is next to impossible, its expensive as well as you said. Having the attempt pay for itself at least makes it less reliant on any particular space agencies budget. Well, I can see Mercury becoming interesting in a far future stage, when/if we need enormous loads of materials to sustain construction of giant space structures. Like when humans are also truly space dwellers. At that time, there will maybe be methods and means to deal with the difficulties of harvesting Mercury. I don't see Mercury be involved at an early stage though. The difficulties are too great. It's not just the temperatures and radiation, which are lethal, not only to men but also machines. Mercury is also rather difficult to get to and even more difficult to get away from. It's just as difficult to transport 10 kg Titanium from Mercury to Earth - or similar position in solar system - as transporting 10 Kg Titanium from Earth to Jupiter. We're talking of massive amounts of delta-V. So lots of energy and propellant, huge rockets. Remember that Mercury is deep into the Sun's gravity well. I'm not saying it's unsolvable in the long run. The Sun could be used to provide energy for electrical rockets with extreme specific impulse. Or there could be a chain of millions of automatic solar-wind driven vehicles, each traveling for decades, keeping up a steady flow of materials by shear numbers. But I see all of that as something far into the future, when man is already technically comfortable in space and our solar system. Actually, materials is exactly the reason why the Moon and Mars are so attractive in the short perspective. Not just building materials available at the spot, but also as a ready, stable, safe structure to build on. Terraforming Mars is an impossibility in foreseeable time and also needs a couple of huge problems being solved. But while terraforming Mars would be cute, it's not necessary at all. The optimum source for materials for building a wider space conquest, is the asteroid belt between Mars and Jupiter. It would have been nice with more solar power there, but the mass is already close to where we would need it. We won't need to go to Mercury for a while.
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Post by masterwarderz on Feb 11, 2017 23:40:56 GMT
In relation to Mercury? The 'colony' wouldn't be anywhere relatively anyway near the planet itself, if I was planning the project I'd toss it out at L1 Mercury and if you are unaware of the distance between that and the planet itself its roughly a quarter million miles or so off the dark side. That to me would be the ideal place to put a depot and factory array just because I think it would be an ideal place for initial construction due to the abundance of space junk around its orbit. Everything could be constructed prefab out there, heavier industry could wait until viable lanes down to the planet itself could be established which would take a while and probably be the longest portion of the project outside the construction itself. I am thinking most of the work down on planet would be left to automation and maybe a handful of people in deep crust bunkers that are treated to resist the intense heat and radiation and other painful things that are toxic to human life, it'd be a foundry not a colony is my point. You get the mineral wealth off the planet, ship it up into the factories, crank out what's needed, ship the surplus elsewhere. It to my eye is a vital portion of actual colonization, Mercury provides a immense treasure trove of exotics just from the remedial scans we have done now. Iron and titanium are extremely common, titanium is admittedly the one that caught my eye because of it use in constructing space craft, satellites and such. Mercury is just something we need if we are ever going to actually colonize anything, some spaceborne bit of industry because I hate to tell you this but the Moon isn't going to hold up as a mine to my eye if its the sole supply, its got a lot up there admittedly but it's not got anywhere near the mineral wealth of Mercury. It will eventually be exhausted, assuming that even drilling there proves viable, though god help humanity if we can't even mine the fucking moon, any sort of extra-planetary ventures are sort of fucked then. But I am thinking late game as I said, the Moon would be first, then Venus, then Mercury then it turns about and becomes that bullshit trek to Mars because apparently we need to live on Mars. Mercury though to my assuming that viable space platforms can be designed to weather the situation there? Will be both the easiest and hardest venture, easiest in the vein that nothing permanent will likely need to be planned for the surface itself outside of pit mines and such and harder because everything out there will have to be designed either from what resources are available or prefabricated and transported along with them. It won't be like with Mars where you have to try to live up to the pseudo science of terraforming or anything. You'd just be setting up a series of space stations in a stable orbit pattern in a relatively safe region. Its a factory, not a homestead though. It'd probably be an extremely lucrative place of business though assuming space shipping becomes a thing. Mountains of rare minerals exist out there, never touched, never tapped, never exploited. Assuming we can figure out a faster method of transit of course, having goods take four years or so to arrive wouldn't be viable. That'd be the same reason I'd go after Jupiter, I'd at the very least attempt to get a viable economy going up in space to at least attempt to pay for the actual process of colonization, so I'd make every attempt to go where the money was, to at least attempt to get a fair bit of it. Make it as reliant as possible on what itself can produce, because as you said. Making this shit on Earth is next to impossible, its expensive as well as you said. Having the attempt pay for itself at least makes it less reliant on any particular space agencies budget. Well, I can see Mercury becoming interesting in a far future stage Well it wouldn't be anytime soon I am quite well aware of that, I predict that even if we began construction today an actual settlement on the moon would take at the very least a period of years, maybe a decade. Then that attempt has to bear fruit, become self sustaining, have the wealth of resources come back to down it, then presuming that actually pans out in the decades that follow? Venus. We'd be looking at 2060 or so if we kicked off this shit today. Then repeat with Venus, so it'd probably 2100 or so before Mercury actually became what I'd predict it to be. Though I do believe that rocketry would have advanced leaps and bounds in the time since because it'd have to, to even make this vaguely economically viable.
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Post by B. Hieronymus Da on Feb 12, 2017 14:26:39 GMT
Well, I can see Mercury becoming interesting in a far future stage Well it wouldn't be anytime soon I am quite well aware of that, I predict that even if we began construction today an actual settlement on the moon would take at the very least a period of years, maybe a decade. Then that attempt has to bear fruit, become self sustaining, have the wealth of resources come back to down it, then presuming that actually pans out in the decades that follow? Venus. We'd be looking at 2060 or so if we kicked off this shit today. Then repeat with Venus, so it'd probably 2100 or so before Mercury actually became what I'd predict it to be. Though I do believe that rocketry would have advanced leaps and bounds in the time since because it'd have to, to even make this vaguely economically viable. Well, I think we're more looking at year 3100, 4100 or even 5100. I'll try explain why: The F-4 Phantom went into service 1960, that's 57 years ago. It's still in service with Greece, Turkey, Japan and South Korea. But it followed only 17 years after the P-51 Mustang. The B-52 first flew 1952, that's 65 years ago. It's still in service and it's tentatively planned to be in service into the 2040'ies. So what I'm trying to say here, is that in technology, things only move fast in spurts, when there is a great deal of technological slack to take up. We saw that in shipping during the period 1860 to 1915, in firearms during the period 1870 to 1920, in computers during the period 1975 to 2010, and so on, you get the idea. When there is no 'slack' - ready technologies but not fully deployed or matured - to take up, things move at pedestrian pace. And then there is this thing that some things cannot be made much better, due to physical limitations. Digital cameras for instance, are currently coming up to a number of physical absolutes, which means we're not going to see the same dramatic improvements that we've seen in recent years. In the case of rocket engines, there is not terribly much to do in terms of efficiency. A rocket delivers impulse, or momentum if you want. It does that by throwing away reaction mass aka propellant backwards. If you want to double the amount of impulse you get from a certain amount of propellant, you need the square in energy, that is four times more energy. If we want 10 times better propellant performance from a rocket engine, we need 100 times more energy. Close to the sun we can get that energy from solar power, for smaller rockets. But the only rational solution for big rockets and for rockets moving outwards in the solar system, is nuclear power. And I'd suggest Fusion nuclear power at that, because otherwise we'll soon run out of fuel. So, basically, there's a lot of technical developments to be made before we can conquer the solar system.
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Post by mousestalker on Feb 12, 2017 20:29:11 GMT
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Post by masterwarderz on Feb 12, 2017 20:41:32 GMT
Well it wouldn't be anytime soon I am quite well aware of that, I predict that even if we began construction today an actual settlement on the moon would take at the very least a period of years, maybe a decade. Then that attempt has to bear fruit, become self sustaining, have the wealth of resources come back to down it, then presuming that actually pans out in the decades that follow? Venus. We'd be looking at 2060 or so if we kicked off this shit today. Then repeat with Venus, so it'd probably 2100 or so before Mercury actually became what I'd predict it to be. Though I do believe that rocketry would have advanced leaps and bounds in the time since because it'd have to, to even make this vaguely economically viable. Well, I think we're more looking at year 3100, 4100 or even 5100. I'd imagine we'd just about be done with colonization of our entire solar system in three thousand or so years. I'd say at the very least we'd have several colonies across it either on ground or above it in orbit. Because I believe the technology exists for colonization of the moon at the present date, it'd primitive compared to what'd I like but it could be done. So you have the framework to build off of, I mean the tech exists at present to make structures that are completely air tight and can retain their own atmosphere which would be a vital element, one of them anyway on that airless, dark rock in the sky. That said I do agree with the premise of nuclear rocketry, its a science as a principle and theory have existed for decades but never got off a drawing board despite the advantages it holds in theory to conventional solid state rockets. If fusion could be applied to it? Even more viable, It'd provide a very needed step in longer range rockets that would ferry folks to far away lands, but it'd just be another place to begin the process all over again. I doubt we are ever going to have the be all end all of space travel, and I imagine that as long as we have space flight we are going to try to desperately improve it.
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Post by mousestalker on Feb 15, 2017 17:12:33 GMT
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Post by Lavochkin on Feb 16, 2017 4:10:34 GMT
About the World Wide Web and the Internet, which contrary to what some think, are not the same thing.
About the electromagnetic spectrum and how various maps of the world aren't entirely accurate.
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Post by fiannawolf on Feb 16, 2017 4:26:07 GMT
Currently watching this to get in the mood for space and science:
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Post by Lavochkin on Feb 16, 2017 16:15:09 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2017 11:30:31 GMT
Maybe this is already old news but Pluto is getting interesting and needs a definitive revisit chance maybe Pluto deserves even the Planet status again.
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Post by Lavochkin on Feb 18, 2017 4:16:12 GMT
Here's something our resident mod Gecko would dig.
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Post by opuspace on Feb 18, 2017 8:48:55 GMT
There's a golden goose award for scientific discoveries that seem silly or nonsensical at first but later prove to be groundbreaking.
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Post by Gecko on Feb 18, 2017 17:41:58 GMT
Here's something our resident mod Gecko would dig. In other words....
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Post by Obadiah on Feb 18, 2017 19:38:58 GMT
Old post vid, but still interesting, on the detection of gravitational waves from 2 colliding black holes.
They are measuring these waves by measuring the change in distance of 4 km long interferometers using lasers to measure changes to within 1/10,000 of the width of a proton.
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Post by B. Hieronymus Da on Feb 19, 2017 13:39:06 GMT
...meanwhile: I'm rather worried about the situation with the Oroville dam in the coming week. They're doing everything they can, of course, but the problem is that it would take months to engineer and build a proper fix, and it should have been done years ago.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2017 14:22:09 GMT
I'll bet we are not alone in the universe.
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Post by Lavochkin on Feb 19, 2017 18:55:09 GMT
On the subject of black holes, Vsauce has a vid on them.
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Post by Nightman on Feb 20, 2017 19:50:45 GMT
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Post by Lavochkin on Feb 23, 2017 3:51:04 GMT
Turns out that Vultures have potent stomach acids and an equally potent immune system, plus they do us all a favor by ridding of the potential for disease by consuming animal carcasses, which means that they're good people.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2017 12:54:07 GMT
They discovered a new starsystem with potential life like planets The TRAPPIST-1 system. It's only 229 trillion miles ( 369 trillion kilometers ) away from here or about 39 light years so what are we waiting for ... lets go.
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Unapologetic Western Chauvinist. Barefoot. Great Toenails
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Post by B. Hieronymus Da on Feb 25, 2017 22:24:15 GMT
They discovered a new starsystem with potential life like planets The TRAPPIST-1 system. It's only 229 trillion miles ( 369 trillion kilometers ) away from here or about 39 light years so what are we waiting for ... lets go. What am I missing here? Is it a very small and bleak Sun?
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