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"Why are you telling me this? I can read and draw my own conclusions." - Roach
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Post by Blast Processor on Sept 15, 2019 21:36:52 GMT
Who cares? I just wanna play games I like. In the end "objective analysis" really means very little when compared to personal preference. Mass Effect 1 would be considered a 5 or a 6 at best by mainstream "standards" today. Still prefer it to any of its successors. Every game has its pros and cons, its all a matter of those pros and cons lining up with what you want from the game. Plus, your posts seem to suggest that today's games lack serious flaws, and that players really shouldn't prefer games from ten years ago unless driven by nostalgia. I like how folks parrot objective analysis as bad when it suits their bias, but yet we see folks also argue games being objectively bad elsewhere. Like I said it's a game I'm likely going to rate a 7. I'm already rating it subjectively for my own review. And honestly, I care because I'm more concerned with the expectations of players and the hyperbole that has been employed by many in this thread thus far. Thing is I can only speak for myself. But I see where you are coming from, you believe players are having a case of....
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Post by dazk on Sept 15, 2019 21:40:36 GMT
I am not sure I'd say Greedfall's design is archaic but for me, it's just that I don't think the game has any part of it that is any better than DAO which is ten years old. That doesn't in my opinion make it bad but I just think DAO is actually a superior game, particularly story wise and especially companion and romance wise. Really the only thing in superior Greedfall (at 15 hours) that I'd give it is that it's combat is better than DAO. None of that matters however if people are enjoying playing it but I just feel people are trying to put this game on a pedestal or make it out to be some sort of renaissance of SP RPG gaming and for me it's just not. Maybe having just played 500hrs of AC Odyssey and that being Ubi's second attempt to move into the RPG space, it seems to me a far better game than this in all regards except the romances which I haven't gotten far enough into in Greedfall yet to fully experience. Yes that's a AAA game with a huge budget but if you are comparing games versus games that is IMO a significantly better product and so coming to Greedfall after that I do actually feel like I have gone back to playing a game a decade old. And maybe that's just me, I have never been good at going back and playing older games except for some reason The Witcher games. If this sounds like I hate Greedfall and I am hating on Spiders that really is not my intent I am truly just trying to put forward my own experience with the game. I haven't played Odyssey. I'm not really that into the Assassin's Creed franchise. But I'd say that DAO was probably Bioware's last "great" rpg. I suppose if one can say that Greedfall is no better than that, it's more a statement that Bioware has stagnated that much rather than any failing on Spiders' part. A AA studio is catching up to them an, if they continue to improve, may end up surpassing them. Have you watched any gameplay of it? Ubi and AC have moved a long way from the old AC games with Origins and Odyssey and in my opinion and I was late to AC games but became a huge fan, I think they have done well at introducing interesting quests, choices and a decent over arching story constrained in some was by the historical settings of the games. At least 4 people on BSN I know of have played Odyssey as their first AC game and really enjoyed it.
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linksocarina
N5
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Greedfall
Sept 15, 2019 21:52:05 GMT
via mobile
Post by linksocarina on Sept 15, 2019 21:52:05 GMT
I like how you assume archaic means it's a negative... I'm a bit busy but real quick on progression as an example, by level 16 I had 4 charisma thanks to 3 points in the attributes, plus 1 from a Cape. For most of the game now it is impossible for me to fail charisma checks, which in turn makes intuition or playing on the loyalty of the companions a pointless choice for quest design. The system gives you a scattered bit of points but it is pretty easy to game thanks to how the internal mechanics work. Finding extra skill points on each map is a massive advantage for example, the skill system is also exploitable via the respawning enemies, which is something bioware rarely did. Its fluid enough where you can if you want, grind all the way to level 99 before doing the main quests which a decked out character. I've also found that vigor and lockpicking are less important abilities compared to science and charisma, which with the crafting system and the abundance of resources available from Harvesting enemies and mushrooms you can make potions up the wazoo for nit only money, but for use to tackle enemies and bosses. The progression is frankly broken by being virtually non existant because the main plot stands still. The game loses all challenge by level 16 for me. The only time I died has been the arena challenge so far. That is just one example of what I mean. Well, generally speaking, people don't use the term "archaic" as a compliment  RE: your charisma example. There are checks where even with a maxxed-out charisma, success isn't a certainty. You'd have been better off pointing out you can save scum such attempts if one were so inclined. In addition, by maxxing your charisma early, you are missing out on vigor, which can get you to areas otherwise difficult to access, lockpicking for extra loot, intuition for other dialogue checks, etc. If someone seriously wants to grind all the way to level 99, I say they are welcome to it. Most of us would probably rather experience the story. I haven't used lockpicking or vigor much, but I have found areas I couldn't access due to lack of vigor and have had to find alternate routes. Also, while I put a single point in science, I find myself not using it much once I started getting healing abilities, but that's just because of my preferred spec. I'm not sure what you mean by the story stands still. Are you saying there should be more timed quests? Remember, I am looking at this from A critics standpoint. Personal choice of grinding or not to 99 is immaterial. The fact that can be exploitable is more so the problem, and not in a fun way. Same with charisma. Outside of save scumming as well. The story stands still like mass effect. Remember how they emphasized choices of where to go in the trailers but you can actually do everything so long as you don't progress then main plot at all? That's the kind of thing I mean. I've finished maybe 4 main questlines and the rest has been side missions, with vascos entire story arc complete and everyone else except petrus at two personal quests a piece. I'm only level 24 right now. A lot of other quests are also like that, I had the quest with ullan hanging for a long time for example. I would actually prefer more times quests, or at least timed quests you can fail. There are very few in the game that fit that description. Lockpicking you can wear a piece for it in your chest, plus take one point to access almost everything in game. The same piece plus sijoras bonus for vigor, and charisma will be for petrus at 5, so the one dialguenive encountered at 75% with 4 charisma will be beaten then. |
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Syv
N3
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Post by Syv on Sept 15, 2019 21:54:35 GMT
I'm on New Serene now. And there is no debate, the second quests ( even those that aren't tied to the main quest ) are far better than what we got in Mass effect Andromeda, and I'd even say DA:I for most of it, with all its fetch quests tied in an open world. We have true investigations, and I absolutely love that. Bioware needs to play this small game so they can know again how to design second quests ( not necessarily tied to the main quests ), because it seems they lost this skill lately ( DA:I, Andromeda, Anthem ) for a reason I'm not able to grasp. Hey Syv, I don't want to sound critical or petty or whatever I just truly am trying to get an understanding that I appear to be missing but can you give me an example of the "true investigations" in the game. I am just not sure what you (and others) mean as nothing so far has stood out as anything different to any other games I have played lately in that regard. In AC Odyssey there were many quests that I would consider were far superior in terms of having to investigate things in a quest and those particular quests being far superior in nearly every regard except for some perhaps in story quality. I just did the ancient ruins quest and if that is an example, I would call finding a cog and repairing it to get through a gate then wandering a map with pre-marked magnifying glass markers not a true investigation quest. I just really get the sense people are over hyping some of the stuff in this game and justifying it through a prism of it's a "AA" game. Again using Odyssey as a basis, the interactions with some of the main NPC's such as Phoibe, Sokrates, Herodutus, Barnabas etc. by the end of the game I genuinely felt for those characters and theirs fates often left me quite emotional. I get nothing like that (yet) from any of the NPC's in this game. Maybe I have become jaded or cynical or something but for me whilst I have started enjoying the game more, I feel like I am missing something compared to others comments about it. Don't worry, I'll try to explain.  First I am not comparing this game to any other out there, I just compared it in this area to recent games like Andromeda, Anthem, or even DA:I. We are talking about minor second quests here. Because they are in the same area between these games to be honest while being different. Let me tell you my feeling first. I was very surprised at the beginning of Greedfall, when I put my hand on it, the first time I played. When you have to find the young sailor in Serene for example. It was a ridiculous small quest not at all tied to the main quest, it was just after the tutorial, I was expecting like in DA:I, that it was just going to be : going to point A to point B, fighting, and coming back, the matter resolved in a few seconds, hardly relevant. And yet unlike what I expected, it was truly treated as important and made you feel it was. There was an sinister atmosphere thanks to the writting elaborated around that mission, there was a real investigation to find the young sailor actually. You could interrogate several NPCs, you could use your skills, you are looking for proofs, you have to visit a few locations. Once it is done, you have then to find a way to free him, while having learned interesting things on those who decided to lock him up, learning more about the world. The mission could end in several ways, it's up to you to resolve the matter in the way you want. That's what I call a true investigation in an RPG. I also just finished a quest of Kurt, which I absolutely loved, investigating about the young Reiner. It took a long time to discover what happened to him, you had to investigate, It took a long time after to resolve the matter with all this mystery around the death of the young man. We had to ask questions to several npcs, we had to go from a point to another, to another, to another one. We had to be furtive, we had to discover the secret hidden, while all this time Kurt kept commenting, kept being emotional, kept giving us his point of view. This mission was truly alive, and to fully succeed it without consequences, you 'll have to do things with a certain order, you may need some skills. In Andromeda or even DA:I for second quests, it was just " my mother is sick, please go find her to give her my potion. thanks" Or " The templar bastards have killed my husband and took his ring, go find them, and kill them. Or " my cow is lost, go find her. " Or there are wolves around, please go build some towers around, thanks my boy " Irrelevant, hardly interesting by the way. In Andromeda an NPC with a few lines just tell you " We have no news of our company, please, go find them. " No questions you could ask to find them, and our character has absolutely nothing to add, he just has to accept the mission. Point A to point B with the Mako. After a fight with some ketts and seeing a few bodies scattered all around, you discover that the angarian soldiers are all dead immediately thanks to a note on the ground telling they were being attacked by the Ketts... Aaaaand that's it. And it's mostly like that in Andromeda. That's what we've been used to since 2014 with Bioware. Won't even talk about Anthem missions, as they are terribly laughable. In Greedfall, even when you have to find someone minor, you have sometimes to investigate first, you have to ask questions, or you have to find something to get his location and sometime doing so it is sometimes required something of you for that to happen. That is way more realistic than simply falling on those we are looking for by just traveling an openworld thanks to a cross on the map like the lucky guy you are lol.  ( findind the templars who stole the ring for example. So lucky to find them in a random way to be honest, while we had no informations ) To sum up, No questions, no investigation, no skills to use, no input from our companions, except maybe to say an useless and frivolous thing, like Sera. Often straight to the point, with just killings a lot of mobs and coming back to point A. As for Assassin's creed, it seems to me that when it was released, there were people that were praising it for going surprisingly into that territory too. I'm talking about Greedfall, because that's what I am playing right now. It's a fact that this game had less bugdet, time and human resources, but they did a good job in this area to me. It's not that we are overhyping this game, they are doing things that maybe Bioware has neglected these last years and it pleases us. It's just that in recent years, we swallowed so much shit, that it feels good and weird at the same time to see such things again. I personally was surprised with Greedfall. I didn't expect much in this area. I mean, I was so used to Fetch quests, that it was somewhat the norm for me, and that is not normal. Playing this game reminded me of that.
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linksocarina
N5
Always teacher, sometimes writer
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
PSN: LinksOcarina
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Always teacher, sometimes writer
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linksocarina
Teaching Mode Activated
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linksocarina
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Post by linksocarina on Sept 15, 2019 22:03:17 GMT
I like how folks parrot objective analysis as bad when it suits their bias, but yet we see folks also argue games being objectively bad elsewhere. Unless there is significant overlap between the two groups, this observation does not mean anything and is rather self-evident. It's only hypocrisy if the same person does both. As for my bias, I haven't played the game, and after seeing previews and reading reviews I've determined the game looks just okay, and will probably pass on it for the foreseeable future. What I see is people who like the game because it's reminiscent of a very specific sub-subgenre that's kind of dead at the moment, the classic Bioware RPG. It used to be that fans of it could get a new game every other year, at least, but that's not so much the case anymore. I'm not surprised so many latch onto the next best thing. Folks cannot be that starved for choice on games like bioware when isometrics have continued that mantle through beamdog and obsidian. Plus we are hailing the death of bioware when we know they are still in that game. Whether you liked Andromeda or not, it was a bioware RPG through and through. Same with inquisition and same with whatever dragon age 4 will be. One thing that has been skirted though is that the flaws of andromeda are not considered flaws for greedfall, (animations, lip sync, graphical hiccups, narrative snags) mostly because I presume the AA stigma. The only thing it surpasses it on though is again, the heart and risks it takes, which is a big thing dont get me wrong, but that's about it in my estimation. I guess the point again, is we should be realistic about expectations here. Spiders is not going to surpass bioware. Their very best is on par with bioware's worst sure, but that can be seen as a credit to both studios: spiders for matching the weaker part of bioware's catalogue, and bioware for making weaker titles that still outpace the best efforts of other studios. That to me is the takeaway. |
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Post by Gwydden on Sept 15, 2019 22:26:28 GMT
Folks cannot be that starved for choice on games like bioware when isometrics have continued that mantle through beamdog and obsidian. Plus we are hailing the death of bioware when we know they are still in that game. Whether you liked Andromeda or not, it was a bioware RPG through and through. Same with inquisition and same with whatever dragon age 4 will be. One thing that has been skirted though is that the flaws of andromeda are not considered flaws for greedfall, (animations, lip sync, graphical hiccups, narrative snags) mostly because I presume the AA stigma. The only thing it surpasses it on though is again, the heart and risks it takes, which is a big thing dont get me wrong, but that's about it in my estimation. I guess the point again, is we should be realistic about expectations here. Spiders is not going to surpass bioware. Their very best is on par with bioware's worst sure, but that can be seen as a credit to both studios: spiders for matching the weaker part of bioware's catalogue, and bioware for making weaker titles that still outpace the best efforts of other studios. That to me is the takeaway. While there is some overlap between Bioware fans and those who like isometric CRPGs, I doubt it is a significant one. A lot of people simply don't see the likes of PoE as a serious alternative to Bioware games. I'm not among them, but it's also been years since I last bothered with a AAA game, so clearly I don't represent the majority. Moreover, I specified that Bioware is kind of dead at the moment. Here's a list of years when Bioware released an RPG: 1998, 2000, 2002, 2003, 2005, 2007, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2014, 2017. The current gap is the longest between releases, and it doesn't look like the next DA will be out anytime soon. I haven't played Andromeda either. I've never been as much into ME as some, and the general vibe I got from even the most generous critics was that it had the best combat and driving in the series but an aggressively bland narrative. Since hardly anyone follows Bioware for the amazing gameplay, the question that remains is whether Greedfall has bland writing. I wouldn't know for sure; I haven't played the thing. Your talk of heart and risks makes it sound like it doesn't, though. As for Bioware's worst, for me that's the absolutely godawful Inquisition. To say that Spiders can do as well as that is to say they can't do well at all. To me it appears more in line with Bioware's more middle-of-the-road titles, the Jade Empires and the Mass Effects. Probably not as good as Origins, but neither is most of Bioware's own catalog.
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Post by dazk on Sept 15, 2019 23:01:26 GMT
Hey Syv, I don't want to sound critical or petty or whatever I just truly am trying to get an understanding that I appear to be missing but can you give me an example of the "true investigations" in the game. I am just not sure what you (and others) mean as nothing so far has stood out as anything different to any other games I have played lately in that regard. In AC Odyssey there were many quests that I would consider were far superior in terms of having to investigate things in a quest and those particular quests being far superior in nearly every regard except for some perhaps in story quality. I just did the ancient ruins quest and if that is an example, I would call finding a cog and repairing it to get through a gate then wandering a map with pre-marked magnifying glass markers not a true investigation quest. I just really get the sense people are over hyping some of the stuff in this game and justifying it through a prism of it's a "AA" game. Again using Odyssey as a basis, the interactions with some of the main NPC's such as Phoibe, Sokrates, Herodutus, Barnabas etc. by the end of the game I genuinely felt for those characters and theirs fates often left me quite emotional. I get nothing like that (yet) from any of the NPC's in this game. Maybe I have become jaded or cynical or something but for me whilst I have started enjoying the game more, I feel like I am missing something compared to others comments about it. Don't worry, I'll try to explain. First I am not comparing this game to any other out there, I just compared it in this area to recent games like Andromeda, Anthem, or even DA:I. We are talking about minor second quests here. Because they are in the same area to be honest while being different. Let me tell you my feeling first. I was very surprised at the beginning of Greedfall, when I put my hand on it, the first time I played. When you have to find the young sailor in Serene for example. It was a ridiculous small quest not at all tied to the main quest, it was just after the tutorial, I was expecting like in DA:I, that it was just going to point A to point B, fighting, and coming back, the matter resolved in a few seconds, hardly relevant. And yet unlike what I expected, it was truly treated as important and made you feel it was. There was an sinister atmosphere thanks to the writting elaborated around that mission, there was a real investigation to find the young sailor actually. You could interrogate several NPCs, you could use your skills, you are looking for for proofs, you have to visit a few locations. Once it is done, you have then to find a way to free him, while having learned interesting things on those who decided to lock him up, learning more about the world. The mission could end in several ways, it's up to you to resolve the matter in the way you want. That's what I call a true investigation in an RPG. I also just finished a quest of Kurt, which I absolutely loved, investigating about the young Reiner. It took a long time to discover what happened to him, you had to investigate, It took a long time after to resolve the matter with all this mystery around the death of the young man. We had to ask questions to several npcs, we had to go from A point to another, to another, to another one. We had to be furtive, we had to discover the secret hidden, while all this time Kurt kept commenting, kept being emotional, kept giving us his point of view. This mission was truly alive, and to fully succeed it without consequences, you 'll have to do things with a certain order, you may need some skills. In Andromeda or even DA:I for second quests, it was just " my mother is sick, please go find her to give her my potion. thanks" Or " The templar bastards have killed my husband and took his ring, go find them, and kill them. Or " my cow is lost, go find her. " Or there are wolves around, please go build some tower around thanks my boy " Irrelevant, hardly interesting by the way. In Andromeda an NPC with a few lines just tell you " We have no news of our company, please, go find them. " No questions you could ask to find them, and our character has absolutely nothing to add, he just has to accept the mission. Point A to point B with the Mako. After a fight with some kerts and seeing a few bodies scattered all around, you discover that the angarian soldiers are all dead immediately thanks to a note on the ground telling they were being attacked by the Kerts... Aaaaand that's it. And it's mostly like that in Andromeda. That's what we've been used to since 2014 with Bioware. Won't even talk about Anthem missions, as they are terribly laughable. In Greedfall, even when you have to find someone minor, you have sometimes to investigate first, you have to ask questions, or you have to find something to get his location and sometime doing so it is sometimes required something of you for that to happen. That is way more realistic than simply falling on those we are looking for by just traveling an openworld thanks to a cross on the map like the lucky guy you are lol. ( findind the templars who stole the ring for example. So lucky to find them in a random way to be honest, while we had no informations ) To sum up, No questions, no investigation, no skills to use, no input from our companions, except maybe to say an useless and frivolous thing, like Sera. Often straight to the point, with just killings a lot of mobs and coming back to point A. As for Assassin's creed, it seems to me that when it was released, there were people that were praising it for going surprisingly into that territory too. I'm talking about Greedfall, because that's what I am plaiyng right now. It's a fact that this game had less bugdet, time and human resources, but they a good job in this area to me. It's not that we are overhyping this game, they are doing things that maybe Biwoar has neglected these last years and it pleases us. It's just that in recent years, we swallowed so much shit, that it feels good and weird at the same time to see such things again. I personally was surprised with Greedfall. I didn't expect much in this area. I mean, I was so used to Fetch quests, that it was somewhat the norm for me, and that is not normal. Playing this game reminded me of that. Thanks I totally get where you are coming from now. I think the issue is Ubi really lifted the bar with side quests in Odyssey and I just spent 500 hours playing it so my perspective if that's the right word is probably way different, maybe some people will disagree but whole DLC (Lost Tales of Greece) were based around the type of quest you are talking about with finding the cabin boy etc. but your response puts your comments in perspective. Thanks. Re: "In Andromeda or even DA:I for second quests, it was just " my mother is sick, please go find her to give her my potion. thanks" Or " The templar bastards have killed my husband and took his ring, go find them, and kill them. Or " my cow is lost, go find her. " Or there are wolves around, please go build some tower around thanks my boy " Irrelevant, hardly interesting by the way." This made me LOL  I do think MEA cops a bit more of a caning than it deserves and there were far too many quests like that but there were also quite a few good ones as well.
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dazk
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by dazk on Sept 15, 2019 23:11:56 GMT
Folks cannot be that starved for choice on games like bioware when isometrics have continued that mantle through beamdog and obsidian. Plus we are hailing the death of bioware when we know they are still in that game. Whether you liked Andromeda or not, it was a bioware RPG through and through. Same with inquisition and same with whatever dragon age 4 will be. One thing that has been skirted though is that the flaws of andromeda are not considered flaws for greedfall, (animations, lip sync, graphical hiccups, narrative snags) mostly because I presume the AA stigma. The only thing it surpasses it on though is again, the heart and risks it takes, which is a big thing dont get me wrong, but that's about it in my estimation. I guess the point again, is we should be realistic about expectations here. Spiders is not going to surpass bioware. Their very best is on par with bioware's worst sure, but that can be seen as a credit to both studios: spiders for matching the weaker part of bioware's catalogue, and bioware for making weaker titles that still outpace the best efforts of other studios. That to me is the takeaway. While there is some overlap between Bioware fans and those who like isometric CRPGs, I doubt it is a significant one. A lot of people simply don't see the likes of PoE as a serious alternative to Bioware games. I'm not among them, but it's also been years since I last bothered with a AAA game, so clearly I don't represent the majority. Moreover, I specified that Bioware is kind of dead at the moment. Here's a list of years when Bioware released an RPG: 1998, 2000, 2002, 2003, 2005, 2007, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2014, 2017. The current gap is the longest between releases, and it doesn't look like the next DA will be out anytime soon. I haven't played Andromeda either. I've never been as much into ME as some, and the general vibe I got from even the most generous critics was that it had the best combat and driving in the series but an aggressively bland narrative. Since hardly anyone follows Bioware for the amazing gameplay, the question that remains is whether Greedfall has bland writing. I wouldn't know for sure; I haven't played the thing. Your talk of heart and risks makes it sound like it doesn't, though. As for Bioware's worst, for me that's the absolutely godawful Inquisition. To say that Spiders can do as well as that is to say they can't do well at all. To me it appears more in line with Bioware's more middle-of-the-road titles, the Jade Empires and the Mass Effects. Probably not as good as Origins, but neither is most of Bioware's own catalog. To me and this of course my very own subjective opinion, Greedfall is very much of the standard in build quality, graphics etc of DAO but it doesn't have the depth of DAO's story, companion relationships, NPC quality and things of that vein. It does however have better, gameplay mechanics and combat. The factional system is I'd say good but not something that excites me at all. For me right from the start I was just not as engaged in Greedfall as I was in DAO from the vert start or even now that I am 15hr in something like that and whilst their are differing options that I can see that you can pursue they are just not engaging or interesting enough that I'd bother playing the game again.
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OdanUrr
N4
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Nov 12, 2016 22:23:51 GMT
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Post by OdanUrr on Sept 16, 2019 1:14:43 GMT
So, I've been playing for... let's see... 25 hours. I still have a couple of main quests to go and probably another couple for companions. Some impressions: - Voice acting is really good. The female PC alone is light years ahead of her counterpart in Bound by Flame. At worst, I may find the accent of some of the natives a bit odd.
- Sadly, companion interaction doesn't live up to what one would find in a BioWare game. This is particularly noticeable when exploring the world. In a BioWare game, your companions will make the odd comment now and then. In Greedfall, they only ever talk if and when it's related to a quest (and sometimes not even then; it depends on who you pick).
- Having said that, their loyalty quests are very detailed and will often take turns one does not expect. In fact, the story often surprised me, like this one time I was informing Constantin about something or another, when all of a sudden we're interrupted and thrust into a new crisis! I have yet to find a side quest that I could call boring or tedious, and I like that you can engage them differently based on your talents, similar to DXHR (among other examples). Only recently I was about to examine a body and I could either call on my science skills or do some guesswork aided by my (more knowledgeable) companions.
- It's true, building interiors are repeated more often that not, reminding me of the original Mass Effect or Dragon Age 2. It does strike me as odd that, having only three different capital cities in New Serene, they didn't bother to at least make the governor houses more distinctive from one another. Having said that, and unlike Dragon Age 2, these cities are incredibly detailed, so much so that I would find myself staring at buildings or alleyways, from time to time (you can't do much staring when you're constantly ambushed by idiots with a death wish). Even the view in Serene, the starting area, is gorgeous, certainly due to the lighting, which made me feel like I was watching a painting. Greedfall may not have a lot of different biomes to explore (and that is, indeed, a shame), but I think it does make the most of the ones it has.
- So far, I think the quests I've enjoyed the most have to do with trying to discover the island's secrets (and it has plenty). Instead of the Legate of the Congregation of Merchants, I thought I was rather Lara Croft going on some new and exciting adventure! I hope there are still more of these mysteries/quests left (and if not, would it kill you to release some DLC, Spiders?).
- I do believe the game is rather stingy when leveling up (or weight capacity for that matter). Progression is too slow for my liking, or rather was, but that's why we have CE and Nexus.
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Post by azarhal on Sept 16, 2019 1:24:48 GMT
- I do believe the game is rather stingy when leveling up (or weight capacity for that matter). Progression is too slow for my liking, or rather was, but that's why we have CE and Nexus.
And me that was thinking leveling was actually going too fast as is. lol.
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Post by phoray on Sept 16, 2019 1:26:52 GMT
- I do believe the game is rather stingy when leveling up (or weight capacity for that matter). Progression is too slow for my liking, or rather was, but that's why we have CE and Nexus.
And me that was thinking leveling was actually going too fast as is. lol. I think leveling up is alright, maybe fast. What I don't like is the Charisma/Vigor and Strength/Agility only being every 2-4 levels. I wanted max charisma like, 5 levels ago.
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Post by azarhal on Sept 16, 2019 1:50:00 GMT
And me that was thinking leveling was actually going too fast as is. lol. I think leveling up is alright, maybe fast. What I don't like is the Charisma/Vigor and Strength/Agility only being every 2-4 levels. I wanted max charisma like, 5 levels ago. I still only have 1 point in Charisma (from a cape), I have only seen one or two sub 50% chances so far and of the 50%+ ones, I only missed one. Most of the level 3 lock-pick chest have keys. I haven't used a single vigor action that required putting points in it. I've used Intuition 2 and Science 2 quite a bit though. Most of the time that progression is blocked by a talent, there is an option for bypassing it hidden away that leads to the same result (the amount of time I found the recipe to craft something quest related and that something already crafted hidden somewhere is now at 3...which is all of them so far).
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Post by slimgrin727 on Sept 16, 2019 2:15:02 GMT
 Art director: I need you to fill this area up. With stuff. Level designer: Will barrels do? I'm really enjoying this so far despite some blatant shortcuts taken by the devs. Story and setting have delivered. Man this game has a lot of barrels.
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Post by saandrig on Sept 16, 2019 7:03:37 GMT
I'm a bit busy but real quick on progression as an example, by level 16 I had 4 charisma thanks to 3 points in the attributes, plus 1 from a Cape. For most of the game now it is impossible for me to fail charisma checks, which in turn makes intuition or playing on the loyalty of the companions a pointless choice for quest design. The system gives you a scattered bit of points but it is pretty easy to game thanks to how the internal mechanics work. Finding extra skill points on each map is a massive advantage for example, the skill system is also exploitable via the respawning enemies, which is something bioware rarely did. Its fluid enough where you can if you want, grind all the way to level 99 before doing the main quests which a decked out character. I've also found that vigor and lockpicking are less important abilities compared to science and charisma, which with the crafting system and the abundance of resources available from Harvesting enemies and mushrooms you can make potions up the wazoo for nit only money, but for use to tackle enemies and bosses. The progression is frankly broken by being virtually non existant because the main plot stands still. The game loses all challenge by level 16 for me. The only time I died has been the arena challenge so far. I haven't tinkered in the game files yet, but it seems Charisma is capped at 3. Anything above doesn't help. Some conversations are at 75 % with Charisma 3 and 4 (reloaded to check), so it means they are meant to have the chance to fail.
People don't even need to grind to 99 by farming respawning enemies on maps. They can use the Arena for that. And if they want, it's their choice for fun. On PC you can mod it for instant level 99 anyway. Can't see how removing it helps in any way. And if a player doesn't want to fight the respawning enemies in the open maps, they can run past them (not even stealthing) as mobs will disengage at a certain point. Options are never bad.
The skills are balanced out pretty close I think (but that's just me ). Many conversations don't offer you a Charisma check (and Charisma can fail even at max), but instead you have to use Intuition that never fails and often can be used to get to certain map areas. Vigor is very useful for map traversal too and gives you a nice permanent weight bonus (yay for hoarders) and HP/MP regeneration. I can't say that I saw an overuse of a certain Talent at the expense of others. Some, like Vigor, are actually helping all the time in the background without being put at the forefront like Charisma. In fact I played the majority of the game without a single Charisma point and I think that may have been to a benefit. I had a Science point from almost the start, but never even bothered with crafting potions, just ammo. So you may have focused your playstyle around Science and Charisma, but they are hardly better than the rest.
Game loses all challenge at level 16? What difficulty you play on? I got too powerful at point for Normal (probably at around level 12) and had to move to Hard where the game smacked me until I figured some mechanics, got more levels, more abilities, crafted gear and began to overpower things again. At Extreme things are again tough, but there you have to utilize even more tools and pay attention. I think the game has a good challenge progression, unless you keep playing on Easy or Normal difficulty (and if you do, you don't care for a challenge). And for a Spiders game that is a novelty as their previous titles had difficult combat, sometimes even on Easy.
You are the only person I see to bring that argument in any place on the Net where the game is discussed. This sounds like a personal preference of yours and not something that is a game weakness. Timed quests (that aren't the AC Odyssey's daily timed ones, that no one gives a F about when failing) in RPGs have been at best a controversial topic and more often than not are disliked by the majority of players. Even at tactical games as XCOM 2, when the devs introduced limited mission time, first ever mods were to remove it and most of the player base actually disliked the new feature to a point where the developers patched an option to increase the timer to a point where it didn't matter anymore. If an option for timed quests is available, I am cool with it, but I am sure it will be used by a very small fraction of players. And for timed quests to even be interesting and pressing, they have to be really impactful on the story, which is so much work, that I can't think of an RPG developer that ever used them outside of a cosmetic level change (ME2 - suicide mission delay, ME3 - losing the option to do a mission, other games - losing a reputation or a relationship point, but still able to do the quest, etc.). At best maybe some isometric RPG might have it well implemented, but I haven't played such. Spiders themselves tried timed quests previously and frankly, getting rid of them is the smarter decision.
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Post by saandrig on Sept 16, 2019 8:29:17 GMT
As for Bioware's worst, for me that's the absolutely godawful Inquisition. To say that Spiders can do as well as that is to say they can't do well at all. To me it appears more in line with Bioware's more middle-of-the-road titles, the Jade Empires and the Mass Effects. Probably not as good as Origins, but neither is most of Bioware's own catalog. I think there is a bit of a false equivalent when comparing Greedfall to DAI. One might think "So, it has pretty graphics, vast empty open areas, weak and flashy combat, bare bones fetch quests only, weak to mediocre story, good companions and romances, but just a bit worse in all of those areas compared to DAI". This is actually wrong. Many people compare the two games by some weird "sum of it's parts" score system. And DAI apparently gets many points for it's graphics and open world (which many RPG fans won't care about). Only thing in DAI that is done with a classic Bioware touch are the companions in terms of diversity, romances and content. The rest of the game is nowhere near what one expects compared to previous Bioware titles.
Greedfall on the other hand wins points by focusing heavily on the world building, story and side quests, something that Bioware hasn't done since ME3. The companion content is somewhere in the middle between Bioware's best and worst. The game doesn't have the pretty graphics of DAI, nor the huge open areas (big plus if you ask me, less is better here). Combat is debatable, but I find it more engaging than DAI. So while on average the games might be comparable to some, they actually are not, because they are different on a fundamental design focus. This is why Greedfall is more comparable to Bioware titles like DAO, DA2, ME2, where there was a much bigger focus on the world, main and side stories (it outright beats by a good margin DAI and MEA in those departments if you ask me). And while Greedfall is not as good as the best story focused Bioware titles, it's pretty damn near on some fronts, which is impressive, considering it has 5x lesser budget and manpower than DAO. Which begs the question WTF is Bioware doing with it's last several games? Greedfall's budget was probably what BW used to create Skyhold and not much else Do we need to create crowd funding in order to have a story in the next Bioware title? Because it sure seems it doesn't need much money to be done well.
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Post by saandrig on Sept 16, 2019 9:18:33 GMT
Thanks I totally get where you are coming from now. I think the issue is Ubi really lifted the bar with side quests in Odyssey and I just spent 500 hours playing it so my perspective if that's the right word is probably way different, maybe some people will disagree but whole DLC (Lost Tales of Greece) were based around the type of quest you are talking about with finding the cabin boy etc. but your response puts your comments in perspective. Thanks. Re: "In Andromeda or even DA:I for second quests, it was just " my mother is sick, please go find her to give her my potion. thanks" Or " The templar bastards have killed my husband and took his ring, go find them, and kill them. Or " my cow is lost, go find her. " Or there are wolves around, please go build some tower around thanks my boy " Irrelevant, hardly interesting by the way." This made me LOL I do think MEA cops a bit more of a caning than it deserves and there were far too many quests like that but there were also quite a few good ones as well. Another thumbs up from me as well for any Bioware RPG fan considering if AC Odyssey is worth a try. It very likely is. But despite what you might hear from a minority of angry franchise fans, the game is still very much AC in it's core, but finally with a good chunk of RPG elements, that can be a hit or miss on occasion. Story and side quests are probably the most well done I have seen so far in such a true open world. Gameplay loop is very fun. But don't expect to get a classic Bioware RPG in the AC world. More of an Assassin Creed RPG done right, but with room for improvement in future games.
Unlike DAI, MEA felt like they actually had at least the initial sketches for good side quests, but at the end it was all rushed out the door without further work. Remember one of the first quests you get for Eos? The investigation about who shot the foreman? It was a decent quest, had a good introduction, gave you the option to ask around and receive first hand information about the planetary efforts and troubles (world building, hooray), had several steps and a moral decision at the end. Plus a cosmetic, but cool impact you could see down the road. This quest, while still minor and could have been improved upon, got me a bit hyped during the 10 hour trial before game launch and I was thinking "We will get many of those, awesome!". But you know how it turned out... How many such quests are there in MEA?
In fact I saw more quests in MEA that were like just place holders and never left that stage. Kadara seemed to have the most of them. The cannibal lair? Could have been such an awesome quest, it was so fitting the narrative and the place...but we just got the waypoint, went, shot a few guys, boom, done. Then the Cerberus guys in the middle of nowhere...like, ok, very cool potential for a quest, but...how did they set up, how did they get the money, how and why they are on the arks in the first place...So much investigation and world building possibilities wasted. The anti-AI group seemed to get one of the better quest treatments, but probably because they were also introduced in early game, hence developed probably early too. The power struggle dynamic on Kadara seemed to have been a core story point tied and influenced with your every decision on the planet, but at the end it wasn't. And how about that Collective cave, that has one of the adequate investigation quests and is completely missable if you don't look under every nook and cranny. Havarl - can't think of even one side quest I thought to be good.
I recall Eladeen with only the LARPing Krogans that kick the quads of the bullies who tried to interrupt them (now that should have been a quest, not a letter). Aya - zilch. Voeld - the Angara with the Kett hostage and that's it. I didn't even get to see the bloody alien whales, just chased map tags around.
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Post by Iakus on Sept 16, 2019 13:19:38 GMT
Well, generally speaking, people don't use the term "archaic" as a compliment  RE: your charisma example. There are checks where even with a maxxed-out charisma, success isn't a certainty. You'd have been better off pointing out you can save scum such attempts if one were so inclined. In addition, by maxxing your charisma early, you are missing out on vigor, which can get you to areas otherwise difficult to access, lockpicking for extra loot, intuition for other dialogue checks, etc. If someone seriously wants to grind all the way to level 99, I say they are welcome to it. Most of us would probably rather experience the story. I haven't used lockpicking or vigor much, but I have found areas I couldn't access due to lack of vigor and have had to find alternate routes. Also, while I put a single point in science, I find myself not using it much once I started getting healing abilities, but that's just because of my preferred spec. I'm not sure what you mean by the story stands still. Are you saying there should be more timed quests? Remember, I am looking at this from A critics standpoint. Personal choice of grinding or not to 99 is immaterial. The fact that can be exploitable is more so the problem, and not in a fun way. Same with charisma. Outside of save scumming as well. The story stands still like mass effect. Remember how they emphasized choices of where to go in the trailers but you can actually do everything so long as you don't progress then main plot at all? That's the kind of thing I mean. I've finished maybe 4 main questlines and the rest has been side missions, with vascos entire story arc complete and everyone else except petrus at two personal quests a piece. I'm only level 24 right now. A lot of other quests are also like that, I had the quest with ullan hanging for a long time for example. I would actually prefer more times quests, or at least timed quests you can fail. There are very few in the game that fit that description. Lockpicking you can wear a piece for it in your chest, plus take one point to access almost everything in game. The same piece plus sijoras bonus for vigor, and charisma will be for petrus at 5, so the one dialguenive encountered at 75% with 4 charisma will be beaten then. Being able to grind may be an "exploit" But it's one that the player really has to go out of their way to do. I don't see that as a problem. Ore a play style. Same with charisma, or other stats. I fail to see how maxxing out charisma early to handle dialogue challenges more easily is any more of a cheat than pumping crafting to get the best upgrades, or lockpicking to maximize loot gathering. Heck starting with a point of science makes resolving some quests a lot easier simply because I could craft what I needed rather than run around looking for the needed items. The story may stand still, but that's a "flaw" in virtually every RPG out there. Heck every video game with a story, for that matter. Sure it would be great if the game reacted more based on what order you do quests in, but is it really worth dinging a game for something that even the AAA companies still adhere to?
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Post by azarhal on Sept 16, 2019 13:50:40 GMT
The story may stand still, but that's a "flaw" in virtually every RPG out there. Heck every video game with a story, for that matter. Sure it would be great if the game reacted more based on what order you do quests in, but is it really worth dinging a game for something that even the AAA companies still adhere to? Most games are worst with "stand still" quests than GreedFall is. The last few I played had "the world is ending now" plots, but nothing ever ended despite me doing all sort of other things but the main quest. At least in GreedFall, time sensitive things like healing people or spying on secret meetings are usually timed. But most of GreedFall quests aren't time sensitive in nature, they are investigation/research and/or diplomacy based. By the way, GreedFall do react to the order you do stuff in, either via the faction reputation affecting things or NPCs straight up referencing side quests with favorable conclusion for them which cause them to help you without arguing later. I even wonder if some quest optional steps might not be available based on which companions are with you as I had Petrus suggest something that turned into a optional step in a quest last night and I really doubt the others would have suggested it. I'll have to replay the game and try to do things totally differently to see what happens.
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Post by saandrig on Sept 16, 2019 14:08:59 GMT
I even wonder if some quest optional steps might not be available based on which companions are with you as I had Petrus suggest something that turned into a optional step in a quest last night and I really doubt the others would have suggested it. If you want a tattoo, you have to do certain main and side quests in a certain order or no deal. On that topic - if you are a female De Sardet, FFS, don't get the tattoo The design looks horrible on a female, almost to a trolling point - like something one draws on the face of a girl that fell asleep at a party...
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Post by azarhal on Sept 16, 2019 14:12:35 GMT
I even wonder if some quest optional steps might not be available based on which companions are with you as I had Petrus suggest something that turned into a optional step in a quest last night and I really doubt the others would have suggested it. If you want a tattoo, you have to do certain main and side quests in a certain order or no deal. On that topic - if you are a female De Sardet, FFS, don't get the tattoo The design looks horrible on a female, almost to a trolling point - like something one draws on the face of a girl that fell asleep at a party... Are you telling me that is not what happened... Note: I know why you can get a tattoo, I think I'm pretty much fully spoiled for everything that happen in the game now. I have bad habits.
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Post by phoray on Sept 16, 2019 14:32:54 GMT
I didn't know one could get a tattoo.  |
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Post by 10k on Sept 16, 2019 15:11:16 GMT
Just bought the game, it's pretty good so far.
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Post by Sharable Horizon on Sept 16, 2019 18:38:35 GMT
Same here! Think I’ve just finished up the prologue and I’m having a blast so far!  |
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Post by 10k on Sept 16, 2019 19:13:10 GMT
I wanted to know what do people think of the craftsmanship talent. Is is worth it? Because I could just pay the blacksmith to do the upgrades for me.
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Post by phoray on Sept 16, 2019 19:16:18 GMT
I wanted to know what do people think of the craftsmanship talent. Is is worth it? Because I could just pay the blacksmith to do the upgrades for me. Depends on how much money you have at any given time and if you use a lot of ammo I would get 1 point (in science?) and keep a pair of Blacksmith gloves and make my own ammo. |
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Its never too late. LOL. 
First I am not comparing this game to any other out there, I just compared it in this area to recent games like Andromeda, Anthem, or even DA:I. We are talking about minor second quests here. Because they are in the same area between these games to be honest while being different. 
( findind the templars who stole the ring for example. So lucky to find them in a random way to be honest, while we had no informations )
I do think MEA cops a bit more of a caning than it deserves and there were far too many quests like that but there were also quite a few good ones as well.
