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Post by AnDromedary on Sept 25, 2019 20:02:08 GMT
On the issue with the natives, I am not through the game yet but from what I have seen so far, I agree with Iakus . I don't see how they are portrayed with particular stereotypes. Sure, the noble savage thing does come through in some of them but definitely not all the time. You have pragmatists like Ullan as well as outright xenophobes among them. If anything, I am sometimes surprised how well the natives already adapted to dealing with the newcomers. IMO Greedfall is doing a pretty good job in providing a nuanced picture of all the sides. Same goes for the religious Theleme nation. Sure, there are some outright villainous characters but most seem to be more pragmatic than anything and some even can see beyond their own agenda (you companions especially but also most of the nation's leaders as far as I ahve dealt with them so far). THey all seem fairly reasonable within the constraints of their purpose. After all, the game is handling a topic that is absolutely mired with very well established roles, archetypes and stereotypes in countless former literature and art (some of which may even be somewhat justified) and IMO it really is trying it's best to stay away from black and white characterizations for the most part.
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Post by dazk on Sept 25, 2019 23:32:08 GMT
I can imagine the game would have been so much easier were you able to micromanage your companions... so not being able to control your companions in a tactical fashion feels like a design intended to waste your time. I miss games like that too, but most modern games don't really give you control over your companions. Even DAI dialed it back a lot and made it so that your companions were auto-bots as much as possible. They wanted you used to playing just with our own character due to MP probably. I have become old and impatient, I am happy for the companions to do their own thing TBH.
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Post by dazk on Sept 25, 2019 23:44:07 GMT
Did the quest to find the tablets etc and the discovery of the truth about St Matheus (?) and it was one of my favourites so far. Took three attempts to convince Cardinal Cornelia via Charisma to reveal the truth but it was worth it. Pic contains spoilers One serious gripe is loot, I got 5 gold pieces and that was it from this "boss "battle!!!!!
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Post by azarhal on Sept 26, 2019 0:45:02 GMT
One serious gripe is loot, I got 5 gold pieces and that was it from this "boss "battle!!!!! Sometimes you get a new item directly into your inventory when you kill those bosses, instead of looting it from their corpses. Some also have corpses/chest nearby with unique items too.
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Post by dazk on Sept 26, 2019 1:44:21 GMT
One serious gripe is loot, I got 5 gold pieces and that was it from this "boss "battle!!!!! Sometimes you get a new item directly into your inventory when you kill those bosses, instead of looting it from their corpses. Some also have corpses/chest nearby with unique items too. Yeah I always look for the chests and loot all the bodies, all they gave me were damn priest pieces of clothing. I could have outfitted myself and all my companions as priests!!!!! I have only received two items in the chest, a hammer for the Arena and a chest piece that I have no idea which quest it appeared from.
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Post by OdanUrr on Sept 26, 2019 2:04:40 GMT
My review is now live, if folks wish to read it. Some comments: To some extent, I agree with this statement. Side quests like the ones you mentioned in your review were, at times, more interesting than the main storyline. I was disappointed by how the search for the cure was handled in the end, as I was perhaps expecting an explanation more grounded in reality than in the, let's say, supernatural. Ultimately, the payoff comes across as a bit preachy, yes. I think the narrative would've been better served by integrating the Princes' storyline with the Malichor one, but I don't want to get into spoilers. I couldn't understand your point about pushing stereotypes insofar as companions and other NPCs are concerned. Are you referring to all companions and NPCs or some? What stereotypes are they pushing? Is this a bad thing in the context of the narrative? Regarding the 'noble savage' stereotype that you bring up, I will acknowledge there's something to that effect present in the narrative (the natives are more in tune with nature than their "civilized" counterparts). On the other hand, Greedfall does a balanced job exploring the different motivations of the natives of Teer Fradee. Some factions want war, other want to teach the foreigners, and even another double-crossed me to get rid of a rival (not to mention a few have tried to kill me). While I'll admit it was a bit surprising to casually engage in conversation after that, there are several instances were you do take a side. Off the top of my head I can think of a couple of characters you're able to murder on the spot, as well as a battle where you can side with the rebels against the Bridge Alliance. And I was playing the perfect diplomat. I'm sure you can take more extreme sides should you wish to. I may be the only person who wasn't too bothered by it, but I agree they could've put a bit more effort into the quest design here. To be honest, I was more bothered about the number of doors I have to open whenever I explore a building. Mmm... I can see myself conceding the third one, since Andromeda clearly has more varied biomes that look very pretty. I can also see myself conceding the first one to some extent, for instance whereas combat is concerned, but I believe Greedfall does a better job incorporating your talents/attributes into world exploration and the game's narrative. As for Andromeda being a better title narrative-wise, to what extent? It certainly has more companion interaction, and that is always welcome even if we've come to expect it from a BioWare title. The main storyline is pretty weak though, as are most side quests, which almost always feel like busy-work.
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Post by cankiie on Sept 26, 2019 5:38:23 GMT
I miss games like that too, but most modern games don't really give you control over your companions. Even DAI dialed it back a lot and made it so that your companions were auto-bots as much as possible. They wanted you used to playing just with our own character due to MP probably. I have become old and impatient, I am happy for the companions to do their own thing TBH. The fact that I am old and impatient is exactly what makes me wish the companions did not do their own thing all the time. The absolute insolence of not following my brilliant plan to victory I like a great AI as much as anyone else, but Greedfall's companion AI, goddamn it is stupid AF and I want to burn it on the stake along with the Nadaiga in the Theleme outpost. And giving the option to micromanage and adding the necessity to do so exclusively to higher difficulties, in Greedfall's case 'Extreme' difficulty, should not be hurting too much. Then again, any game remotely mimicking the "difficulty" of the Souls games, are appearantly making a bunch of people cry, whine and kick like entitled children. So I could be wrong
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Post by linksocarina on Sept 26, 2019 13:55:11 GMT
My review is now live, if folks wish to read it. Some comments: To some extent, I agree with this statement. Side quests like the ones you mentioned in your review were, at times, more interesting than the main storyline. I was disappointed by how the search for the cure was handled in the end, as I was perhaps expecting an explanation more grounded in reality than in the, let's say, supernatural. Ultimately, the payoff comes across as a bit preachy, yes. I think the narrative would've been better served by integrating the Princes' storyline with the Malichor one, but I don't want to get into spoilers. I couldn't understand your point about pushing stereotypes insofar as companions and other NPCs are concerned. Are you referring to all companions and NPCs or some? What stereotypes are they pushing? Is this a bad thing in the context of the narrative? Regarding the 'noble savage' stereotype that you bring up, I will acknowledge there's something to that effect present in the narrative (the natives are more in tune with nature than their "civilized" counterparts). On the other hand, Greedfall does a balanced job exploring the different motivations of the natives of Teer Fradee. Some factions want war, other want to teach the foreigners, and even another double-crossed me to get rid of a rival (not to mention a few have tried to kill me). While I'll admit it was a bit surprising to casually engage in conversation after that, there are several instances were you do take a side. Off the top of my head I can think of a couple of characters you're able to murder on the spot, as well as a battle where you can side with the rebels against the Bridge Alliance. And I was playing the perfect diplomat. I'm sure you can take more extreme sides should you wish to. I may be the only person who wasn't too bothered by it, but I agree they could've put a bit more effort into the quest design here. To be honest, I was more bothered about the number of doors I have to open whenever I explore a building. Mmm... I can see myself conceding the third one, since Andromeda clearly has more varied biomes that look very pretty. I can also see myself conceding the first one to some extent, for instance whereas combat is concerned, but I believe Greedfall does a better job incorporating your talents/attributes into world exploration and the game's narrative. As for Andromeda being a better title narrative-wise, to what extent? It certainly has more companion interaction, and that is always welcome even if we've come to expect it from a BioWare title. The main storyline is pretty weak though, as are most side quests, which almost always feel like busy-work. About to lecture so briefly: For the most part yes, almost every character kind of fell into the tropes of their factions. The variety we get from the motivations are still trapped by that to try and add drama. So a theleme priest who is murderous to the natives is no different from the one trying to convert. The stereotype is the religious slant. Same with bridge alliance and the push for science, the avarice of the coin guard, the secretive nauts (who I admit were not that bad compared to the rest) and the natives being what I said basically. Noble savages and the pocahontas effect to try and give them complexity. The insantces where I take a side I enjoyed. Problem is it was narratively inconsistent. Aloysious is the most egregious example. They set up a stereotyped villain but your forced to work with him? A better track would be to encounter him and offer a choice to or not based on his actions, especially when he outright murders someone and you can fight him then and there. If the goal was to try and showcase nuance or a complex character in aloysious they failed. Failed with a lot of characters, now that I think about it. As to the rest. It's all opinion anyway.this better than the one guy on our website who accused me of rushing the game and not understanding what I was playing.
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Post by Iakus on Sept 26, 2019 16:26:25 GMT
Sometimes you get a new item directly into your inventory when you kill those bosses, instead of looting it from their corpses. Some also have corpses/chest nearby with unique items too. Yeah I always look for the chests and loot all the bodies, all they gave me were damn priest pieces of clothing. I could have outfitted myself and all my companions as priests!!!!! I have only received two items in the chest, a hammer for the Arena and a chest piece that I have no idea which quest it appeared from. I lost count of how many Hammers of the Forgotten God I've found in my chest. Those things breed like rabbits.
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Post by Iakus on Sept 26, 2019 16:30:09 GMT
They set up a stereotyped villain but your forced to work with him? A better track would be to encounter him and offer a choice to or not based on his actions, especially when he outright murders someone and you can fight him then and there.
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Post by Kaidan Fan on Sept 26, 2019 16:48:13 GMT
They set up a stereotyped villain but your forced to work with him? A better track would be to encounter him and offer a choice to or not based on his actions, especially when he outright murders someone and you can fight him then and there. I don't know if I've ever slammed a like button so hard before In fact I logged in just to like this comment.
And to add now, since I'm logged in, that I liked MEA for a few runs (mostly for Liam) but consider Greedfall a better game. The side quests were at least actual stories and lore rather than just run here and get something and give it to someone else junk. But that's all personal opinion. So, to each their own.
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Post by Space Cowboy on Sept 26, 2019 16:56:18 GMT
While I agree about Timmy, I just want to add two wrongs don’t make a right.
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Post by Kaidan Fan on Sept 26, 2019 17:00:08 GMT
While I agree about Timmy, I just want to add two wrongs don’t make a right. I don't know which two wrongs you refer to, but I hear 3 make a left
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Post by linksocarina on Sept 26, 2019 17:02:00 GMT
They set up a stereotyped villain but your forced to work with him? A better track would be to encounter him and offer a choice to or not based on his actions, especially when he outright murders someone and you can fight him then and there. That's problematic to an extant, but was handled better. illusive man had a character for one. You had choice of Interaction by force of the situation. or by agreeing. Bioware pulled a narrative trick to get us to follow their plot, but gave you leeway to keep him at arms length and try the false sense of narrative to the situation,even convert the crew pro Cerberus to your side. Greedfall fumbled this by having you interact with the character twice, had no context or nuance to the actual interaction, and just kind of sits there as another quest point to get through. This is not a one to one comparison.
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Post by Iakus on Sept 26, 2019 17:07:14 GMT
That's problematic to an extant, but was handled better. illusive man had a character for one. You had choice of Interaction by force of the situation. or by agreeing. Bioware pulled a narrative trick to get us to follow their plot, but gave you leeway to keep him at arms length and try the false sense of narrative to the situation. Greedfall fumbled this by having you interact with the character twice, had no context or nuance to the actual interaction, and just kind of sits there as another quest point to get through. This is not a one to one comparison. I'd say the exact opposite. At the end of the day, Aloysius was a minor character. TIM, otoh, was the driving force for the entirety of ME2, whom you are railroaded into working for.
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Post by linksocarina on Sept 26, 2019 17:15:08 GMT
That's problematic to an extant, but was handled better. illusive man had a character for one. You had choice of Interaction by force of the situation. or by agreeing. Bioware pulled a narrative trick to get us to follow their plot, but gave you leeway to keep him at arms length and try the false sense of narrative to the situation. Greedfall fumbled this by having you interact with the character twice, had no context or nuance to the actual interaction, and just kind of sits there as another quest point to get through. This is not a one to one comparison. I'd say the exact opposite. At the end of the day, Aloysius was a minor character. TIM, otoh, was the driving force for the entirety of ME2, whom you are railroaded into working for. Almost everyone in greedfall is handled like aloysious. All of them are minor characters by that logic who are barely worth remembering. Say what you will, the narrative of mass effect 2 was at least competent enough to give you the leeway to work with it. When the only game in town willing to support you is the crooked one, what are you going to in the end? Shepard's was not getting anywhere elsewhere at that point. It was a narrative cheat on bioware's part, but it worked in context of what they gave you. You sometimes need to railroad to get back on track. Good GMs know when to railroad and how to make it work.
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Post by Iakus on Sept 26, 2019 17:28:53 GMT
I'd say the exact opposite. At the end of the day, Aloysius was a minor character. TIM, otoh, was the driving force for the entirety of ME2, whom you are railroaded into working for. Almost everyone in greedfall is handled like aloysious. All of them are minor characters by that logic who are barely worth remembering. Say what you will, the narrative of mass effect 2 was at least competent enough to give you the leeway to work with it. When the only game in town willing to support you is the crooked one, what are you going to in the end? Shepard's was not getting anywhere elsewhere at that point. It was a narrative cheat on bioware's part, but it worked in context of what they gave you. You sometimes need to railroad to get back on track. Good GMs know when to railroad and how to make it work. Umm, how do you mean "like Aloysious"?. Yes, he was something of a caricature. Definitely a negative stereotype. But he was a pretty extreme example who takes up only a very small part of one arc. AS opposed to TIM, who pretty much WAS the story of ME2, whom Shepard couldn't get rid of until literally the closing lines of the game. Mass Effect 2 working with TIM rendered the entire game a pointless railroad. One of the first things I learned when I started GM-ing was that it's important to maintain a certain degree of flexibility. If you want the players to head down a certain track, you make them WANT to take that path. You don't push them.
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Post by linksocarina on Sept 26, 2019 17:42:00 GMT
Almost everyone in greedfall is handled like aloysious. All of them are minor characters by that logic who are barely worth remembering. Say what you will, the narrative of mass effect 2 was at least competent enough to give you the leeway to work with it. When the only game in town willing to support you is the crooked one, what are you going to in the end? Shepard's was not getting anywhere elsewhere at that point. It was a narrative cheat on bioware's part, but it worked in context of what they gave you. You sometimes need to railroad to get back on track. Good GMs know when to railroad and how to make it work. Umm, how do you mean "like Aloysious"?. Yes, he was something of a caricature. Definitely a negative stereotype. But he was a pretty extreme example who takes up only a very small part of one arc. AS opposed to TIM, who pretty much WAS the story of ME2, whom Shepard couldn't get rid of until literally the closing lines of the game. Mass Effect 2 working with TIM rendered the entire game a pointless railroad. One of the first things I learned when I started GM-ing was that it's important to maintain a certain degree of flexibility. If you want the players to head down a certain track, you make them WANT to take that path. You don't push them. True on that. Means your doing it well, but that flexibility was present in mass effect 2. I knew what Cerberus was, but Cerberus was also the only devil willing to help. For my paragon Shepard it was an alliance of convenience: I investigate but I'm not pushing Cerberus agenda. Pro human characters might be more pliable and such. That's the thing, I never was pushed to help cerberus outside of the first two missions. with that, and the exception of no other groups such as the council in game unwilling to give aid. In context it worked though. Aloysious is the example if poor characterization and not the only blip in the map. Every villain you face is by extension, even the big bad. I'd name them but can't do spoiler tag here, but you know who I'm referring too.
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Post by AnDromedary on Sept 26, 2019 19:14:56 GMT
I do agree, the lack of choice that one encounters quite often in Greedfall bothered me as well. For example, last night I just finished a questline for a native clan, who afterwards asked me for help with a hostile action against one of the other nations. I was actually flabbergasted when "my" De Sardet auto-answered "ok, I'll try to help you." WTF? I mean, I get that not every RPG has choices everywhere and Greedfall clearly falls in the category where you play a more defined character but this was a choice about helping a faction and the faction system is supposedly the core mechanic of this entire game. Not even being given an opportunity to refuse this rather brazen request was quite off-putting (and there were already a few such situations).
I also think that ME2 wasn't that much better actually because as Iakus mentioned, there it was the underlying main plot point that was railroaded in this fashion and it felt very very wrong (and the fact that there was no one else around at the time is not really a good excuse because that was also just up to the writers). But Greddfall definitely does also fall short when it comes to choices.
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Post by dazk on Sept 27, 2019 0:44:52 GMT
Yeah I always look for the chests and loot all the bodies, all they gave me were damn priest pieces of clothing. I could have outfitted myself and all my companions as priests!!!!! I have only received two items in the chest, a hammer for the Arena and a chest piece that I have no idea which quest it appeared from. I lost count of how many Hammers of the Forgotten God I've found in my chest. Those things breed like rabbits. Greedfall's weapon and armour seem to have taken a lead from AC Odyssey. Hey lets make all the highest level armour and weapons less effective than the purple level below them but they also seem to be worse in Greedfall because at least you get a set bonus in Odyssey!!!! None of the gold items I have received are better than the purple gear my DeSardet has on, my companions have all the gold stuff I have collected!!!!! Boots of any kind seem to be my curse, so many damn boots!!!!! Maybe they are copying DAO, I always seemed to end up with heaps of damn "worn elven boots"!!!!!
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linksocarina
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Sept 27, 2019 4:50:01 GMT
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Post by linksocarina on Sept 27, 2019 4:50:01 GMT
I do agree, the lack of choice that one encounters quite often in Greedfall bothered me as well. For example, last night I just finished a questline for a native clan, who afterwards asked me for help with a hostile action against one of the other nations. I was actually flabbergasted when "my" De Sardet auto-answered "ok, I'll try to help you." WTF? I mean, I get that not every RPG has choices everywhere and Greedfall clearly falls in the category where you play a more defined character but this was a choice about helping a faction and the faction system is supposedly the core mechanic of this entire game. Not even being given an opportunity to refuse this rather brazen request was quite off-putting (and there were already a few such situations).
I also think that ME2 wasn't that much better actually because as Iakus mentioned, there it was the underlying main plot point that was railroaded in this fashion and it felt very very wrong (and the fact that there was no one else around at the time is not really a good excuse because that was also just up to the writers). But Greddfall definitely does also fall short when it comes to choices.
All I know is, I vastly prefer this discourse than the random guy who stated I should be playing fortnight in the comments of the review because that seems like it's more my kind of game. That kind of shit annoys me. Not gonna lie.
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saandrig
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Post by saandrig on Sept 27, 2019 12:26:03 GMT
I lost count of how many Hammers of the Forgotten God I've found in my chest. Those things breed like rabbits. Greedfall's weapon and armour seem to have taken a lead from AC Odyssey. Hey lets make all the highest level armour and weapons less effective than the purple level below them but they also seem to be worse in Greedfall because at least you get a set bonus in Odyssey!!!! None of the gold items I have received are better than the purple gear my DeSardet has on, my companions have all the gold stuff I have collected!!!!! Boots of any kind seem to be my curse, so many damn boots!!!!! Maybe they are copying DAO, I always seemed to end up with heaps of damn "worn elven boots"!!!!! I do the same with the gold stuff in Greedfall.
In protest for the tons of boots you get in DAO, I had a PT where nobody wore them. A whole party of heavily armored heroes...barefooted. It was a funny looking ragtag bunch.
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Post by dazk on Sept 27, 2019 22:21:10 GMT
Greedfall's weapon and armour seem to have taken a lead from AC Odyssey. Hey lets make all the highest level armour and weapons less effective than the purple level below them but they also seem to be worse in Greedfall because at least you get a set bonus in Odyssey!!!! None of the gold items I have received are better than the purple gear my DeSardet has on, my companions have all the gold stuff I have collected!!!!! Boots of any kind seem to be my curse, so many damn boots!!!!! Maybe they are copying DAO, I always seemed to end up with heaps of damn "worn elven boots"!!!!!
In protest for the tons of boots you get in DAO, I had a PT where nobody wore them. A whole party of heavily armored heroes...barefooted. It was a funny looking ragtag bunch.
LMAO, that's too funny!!!!! I have been tempted in Greedfall to dress the characters in the stupidest outfits for who they are and their personalities. Petrus looks especially good in Siora's Master Scout gear and Vasco looks strange in just about anything other than Pirate Naut gear. Aphra looks funny in just all steel, especially the coin guard helmets. I actually miss being able to have the NPC's where any armour type and then change the look to something that suits them better like in ACOD. Never realised how much my NPC's looking appropriate to me anyway means. I have Vasco, Siora and Aphra all wearing their own style gear even though they could be wearing much better armour of another type.
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Post by Blast Processor on Sept 28, 2019 2:07:16 GMT
Seriously tho, the Bridge Alliance and Governor Burham can get *******. For the most part I have found the dialogue to be perfectly acceptable, and a tremendous improvement from previous games, but I found the conversations to between De Sardet and Governor Burham to be extremely jarring. They go from either threatening/accusing each other to, "Oh hey, how is it going. Nice to see you." LOL.
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Post by Blast Processor on Sept 28, 2019 2:13:46 GMT
I do agree, the lack of choice that one encounters quite often in Greedfall bothered me as well. For example, last night I just finished a questline for a native clan, who afterwards asked me for help with a hostile action against one of the other nations. I was actually flabbergasted when "my" De Sardet auto-answered "ok, I'll try to help you." That quest was involved freeing some prisoners didn't it, which seemed normal for De Sardet to accept to me. Thing was I got confused and thought they wanted me to attack Eden, so I was also pretty shocked at first.
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