[Day/Night Game] Trouble on the Citadel - round "LE Part 2: Why Cerberus Is Right For You"

Did the same. Shot that krogan with my best weapon and ammo.

I had a talk with Garrus about his former crew and I guess, I know, what he will ask for the loyalty mission, he kind if did ask already, a la 'If the time comes, I would like to have you at my side' and my Shep said, that she would be there. It's not a quest yet, but I guess, once Garrus finds out where his former team mate lives, it will become a quest.

Mordin is so great. And getting drunk with the doc and playing cards with the engineers was fun too. I like that engineer with the Scottish accent.

Aw, well he will make up for it later, that's all I'm saying.

Indeed. Mordin's awesome, but takes some getting used to. Salarians are weird.



Now, for this game. Several pages ago, I suggested that Kasumi might be in the game, and listed her separately from my own role. No one objected. So either Kasumi is still with us, or Kasumi was never with us but someone was happy to hide behind her. This seems like a strange decision for a hero, since Kasumi would be a target for the spies (but Kaidan less so, because of his ability). Plus, if Kasumi is in the game and is a hero, she ought to have used her ability by now, given how close the heroes are to losing. She's either a spy, or not in the game at all.

If smiles is spy Legion, then I don't think there's any way to win, even if we assume there is only one spy left. There is no one left who could take him out at night, and he could take out a hero with him at any time.

That said, if smiles is spy Legion, it's a little odd that he hasn't activated his ability yet. He could pretty much end the game at this point, or at least bring it to 1-1 if he's the only spy. This makes me think smiles is likely (though not definitely) good.

That leaves fylimar. Assuming fylimar is truly Tali and smiles is truly Legion, then fylimar has known smiles' identity all along. I can't imagine that a spy Tali wouldn't take advantage of this knowledge and eliminate smiles long ago. It would be easy to cover up, too, because plenty of players like to troll smiles in these games.

I'm going to laugh and cry all at once if gervaise was a spy this whole time. Maybe find a nice cozy volcano to jump into   But that leaves the problem of the third or fourth spies, potentially. Call me a pessimist, but I don't think space really gave us just two.  If I had to choose a third, then out of fylimar and smiles, I think it is more likely to be smiles because of the Tali vs. Legion problem, but then I'm still struggling with why he wouldn't have already used his ability.

Then again...if he's not really Legion, then that would mean he and fylimar are spies, because fylimar would by lying about avoiding his votes, and he would have hid behind the Legion claim to avoid gathering any votes on himself.


I'm almost ready to toss a coin and be done with it 

I applaud your efforts on behalf of us heroes, Pela, even after being eliminated. I think it is obvious why the spies wanted you out of the way. Which raises an interesting point. Didn't I prevent this in the second round voting? With two votes already in place, it would have been easy enough to start a bandwagon at that point by adding a third and be shielded from suspicion by the first two voters, so why didn't I? Instead I came up with an alternative to voting off Wrex and allowing him to take a random but useful hero with him or allowing a vote on an as yet unidentified person. Instead I accepted that if we were going to lose a hero, because I admitted Diana could still have been good, then at least it was someone whose ability was a liability rather than an asset to us. Strange behaviour for a spy wouldn't you think?

I would discount anything Adonniel has done or said. It is clear she was playing us from the first round. How she must have laughed when Tittus' odd behaviour gave her the opening she needed to vote him off. Since then she has been consistently trolling us to create more suspicion and mayhem. I never paid any attention to her comment about Dragon leading the vote against Moonae because I know it wasn't true. However, I will reiterate that it was other people who convinced themselves that Moonae must be evil so they felt less guilty about voting for her. I never denied that I had no idea whether she was innocent or guilty but it was the logical solution to the situation we were in and no one else was taking the initiative.

I feel the same is true of the last round. There is a general state of inertia among the heroes with people being happy enough to voice suspicions but without being prepared to take the risk of actually voting for someone lest it make them look guilty. Romice admits that her actions had made her look suspicious so it was perfectly reasonable that I came to the conclusion I did even though she had finally declared herself to be Garrus. As I said in my analysis, because every role can be either good or evil, I looked at the evidence and it seemed damning. I was wrong. If that gets me voted off, then fair enough, but I would point out that Dragon agreed with my evidence and supported my decision. I don't recall her saying that she thought I had made a horrible mistake or defending Romice in any way.

The subject of what roles are present in the game is a good one to think about. Obviously if you have a useful role you are going to avoid revealing too much about yourself. Equally, if you are a potentially damaging role, like EDI, you would do the same. I would also point out that if, say, Kasumi had used their ability but got the target wrong then presumably nothing would be stated in the narrative to that effect because the indoctrination went ahead unimpeded. Because people were being so vague about their roles it would be very easy for Kasumi to get it wrong in the earlier rounds, particularly if the spies were aiming for people who could be one of a number of roles.

In one of my earlier analyses, I suggested that people were somewhat reluctant to vote for Dragon. Dragon misinterpreted my meaning, saying that I was suggesting she might hold a grudge outside the game. Of course I wasn't but I didn't pursue it any further at the time. What I was pointing out that there either seemed an assumption that Dragon is innocent or people were afraid to voice suspicions because it would cause them to immediately become a target for Dragon. Moonae was the only person to voice suspicion against Dragon in round 2 and that was suggested as evidence of her guilt by Dragon. No one had dared to say anything since until Smiles did so. Naturally he could afford to since he knew Dragon wouldn't touch him because she thinks he is Legion.

You say, Pela, that Dragon has been very convincing throughout the game with behaviour that would suggest she is not a spy. I've already previously pointed out that due to the nature of this game, "normal" behaviour is not something we can assume. However, I would also say that isn't it the behaviour of a spy to create suspicion in people's minds without actually committing to a vote until other people have done so? Isn't it the behaviour of a spy to let other people lead the vote so they will become the target of reprisals and then follow on later? Isn't it the behaviour of a spy to commend people for their thoughts and actions so they will trust them more in the future? I am not saying that Dragon is a spy but I think it is only fair that with the situation being what it is, everyone should come under scrutiny, not just the people that Dragon has previously voiced suspicions of.

In an earlier post, I feel sure I said that Smiles could eventually end up deciding this. If I didn't say it, I certainly thought it. If Smiles isn't Legion then you are quite correct and Tali has to be in league with him. So may be it is a Tali/Legion conspiracy. Alternatively, may be Legion is the only spy because Space thought that a Wrex/Legion combo was powerful enough without adding to the number. Or may be Legion is in fact on the side of the heroes. Why haven't the spies removed him before now? Who knows, why have the spies done anything up to now? The fact is that we have reached this point with four people remaining and still uncertainty over who can be trusted or even how many spies there are, so the spies clearly knew what they were doing.

Anyway, I am going to come up with another somewhat radical solution to our dilemma. Why don't we invite Smiles to choose who to eliminate by using his ability? It will at least prove whether he is Legion or not and since ultimately Legion can sway the vote to whom he considers guilty (or innocent if evil Legion) why not let him do so from the beginning? To be honest, it will also allow Smiles payback for all those times he was voted off just because he seemed an easy target. How about it?

I've rescued Jack - love her already, she shares my SHeps hate for Cerberus and she is bitchy to Miranda - perfect. And who told Miranda, she is my second in command? She isn't
I just wish, they wouldn't put the girls in such ridiculous clothing - Mirandas outfit is too tight to be practical in combat and Jack channels Morrigan in fashion choice - wtf Bioware?
The Normandy recover mission was very dull. I don't need flashbacks of some pieces of metal, the only ships, I could get nostalgic over are the Tardis, Moya and Serenity, the rest is just metal that brings me where I want to go

I thought, it would not be in character to not finish that mission. After all, literally the first thing, Shepard asked was about her crew

Yeah, I always do it anyway because I'm a completionist. I just meant on subsequent play throughs it could be considered optional. Gotta do it at least once, imo.



Not necessarily but to get him loyal as a paragon you need more points in the Paragon meter to accomplish it. So a paragon would have to leave it for later.

Video game stuff:
The Illusive Man did Shepard doesn't have much of a choice here. Think about it. She's surrounded by loyal (for now) Cerberus operatives and is little more than a prisoner, for all the latitude she's given.

Gotta keep the dudebros happy somehow, because the Normandy doesn't have any asari dancing girls   I'd imagine there are mods for their outfits, but I haven't looked. I do take Miranda out on missions, but I rarely take Jack.

The gameplay is dull, I agree. But I thought it was an emotional mission, imagining how Shepard must have felt to visit her crew's grave (and the place that would have been her grave had her body not been collected).

There is a paragon option to save the workers and keep his loyalty, I think, but as a renegade you probably won't have enough points. I saw a mod the other day that adds a renegade option to this dialogue, but it also changes lots of other dialogues so I haven't checked it out yet.

I don't think it's her personal allowance. At least, I don't remember seeing anything to indicate that. I see it as the Normandy's operating budget, which Shepard occasionally also uses to buy model ships and pets



This game stuff:

This isn't strange behavior for a spy at all. Why would it be strange for a spy to get rid of a hero, especially if the spy saw that the best option -- voting off adonniel to take advantage of that extra elimination -- wasn't going to happen?

On this we agree.

I can't really blame people for this, given how past games have gone. It's frustrating when people won't explain their suspicions, but I see nothing wrong with taking time to think things through before voting.

One of the reasons I stopped suspecting you the last few rounds was because we seemed to think so much alike. I saw romice as very suspicious as well.

I would actually hope this isn't true. If Kasumi guesses wrong, then she doesn't get another shot, so I would hope the narrative would show her researching something, trying to warn someone, and getting it wrong. This is a question for Space.

I didn't suspect her because she suspected me. I suspected her because her reasons for accusing me were so flimsy. Seriously, blaming me for Tittus' confusing strategy?

He didn't object to the idea that he is Legion, which means it's rather odd that the spies have yet to take him out. Do you think he's someone else?

Except that's not what I was doing? I have explained multiple times that I personally end up posting after everyone else because of what time I get online. It tends to be late in the evening for me when I can finally read through all the posts and take my time to reply. Most of you have gone to bed by then. If you look at past rounds where I was the one running the game, you'll see the same posting pattern. I don't see why it's suspicious to live several time zones west of everyone else.

Besides, I haven't been the last person to vote in every round, so if that's the evidence you're going with, you may want to look at some other players You even said once that you were waiting for me to post before you voted.

...No? Why would it be? Both heros and spies do this regularly. 

It would be awfully nice if Space did this, but we can't know that.

However, let's assume that's true and go through likely scenarios. If evil Legion uses his ability this day round, then one hero will be eliminated today, and another tonight. Depending who gets eliminated, that will cause the next day round to be 1-1 (if the hero wasn't EDI, necessitating a coin flip by Space) or 1-2 (if the hero "eliminated" is EDI, meaning the heroes lose).

If evil Legion doesn't use his ability this day round and allows a hero to be voted off by other heroes, then that actually may be worse, because we lose the possibility of winning by coin flip on the final day round (since smiles would be able to direct both votes to the remaining hero).

The spies are doing well, but my crazy "anyone could be evil and can use their ability on absolutely everyone" idea sure made things much easier on them. It means we couldn't really trust anyone, even those who appeared to "prove" themselves, because it could be a spy playing a trick. It's an enormous advantage for the spies because they are the only ones who ever get any definite information that doesn't require second-guessing.

Having Liara be guaranteed good in the future will help this imbalance, but I still think we should consider having the rule that role abilities can only be used to help the player's allies.

Why do we need to invite him? He can use his ability any time he wants, assuming he is Legion indeed.

True, you only get Legion's name if you're a hero. However, if you happened to be a spy, then you would know Legion's allegiance as well, since the spies know each other and have free communication throughout the game.

Space Cowboy Did you restrict what the spies could say to each other at all? I've been assuming not (because when I was a spy in Skyhold, adonniel let us say pretty much whatever). Could they let each other know their roles, or did they have to work it out? Which would still be fairly easy to do in the course of discussing strategy.

Same question: Why do we need to invite him? He can use his ability any time he wants, assuming he is Legion indeed.

Except it isn't because Smilesja could be Evil. If the Heroes vote him off this round it's game over if he isn't innocent. Even if he is, I'm sure he doesn't want that sort  of pressure especially since he isn't the most active player and probably isn't sure himself. If you are truly an Unsure Hero, why leave the decision to a busy player that could Evil? Why take the risk that's higher than voting for someone else?                              
 
ETA: Also I will try to  respond to  most of gervaise's good points . It might take moment  however  since I'm currently forced to use my PS4 at the moment.   Oh, and dragon makes an excellent point about Legion's ability. So there's no need or reason to invite/vote for him.
                                                                                                                     

The reason I made the suggestion about Smiles is that assuming he is Legion then neither side will want him going into the final round of voting with his ability. Evil Legion can win the game for the spies and Good Legion for the heroes simply by using his ability. If he doesn't use his ability this round then if he is on the side of the heroes the spies will eliminate him overnight. So it seemed more likely, if he is Legion and good, that he would want to use his ability now. However, he may still turn out to be the deciding vote so it would still be leaving the outcome of this round to a "busy player that could be evil".

May be you are right and Smiles doesn't want that sort of pressure, much less everyone blaming him if he gets it wrong, so I understand his reticence. The reason I suggested inviting him to use his ability was in order that it could be a shared responsibility for the outcome. Still, if Smiles does not want to take that option we will just have to go with the ordinary voting procedure.

Nope, we'll just end up talking round in circles for another day, so by all means go ahead.