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Post by Arijon van Goyen on Dec 25, 2017 20:55:54 GMT
Well, well, well... the nihilist skeptics quite like to accept the idea of tearing down the Jedi Academy instead of taking the risk because the new movie told them that it's for the greater good.
Imagine my shock.
I hated Kreia. Screw that witch.
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Post by colfoley on Dec 25, 2017 23:29:32 GMT
I just hope they don't retcon any of the three major plot developments.
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Post by Shinobu on Dec 26, 2017 0:23:23 GMT
I just hope they don't retcon any of the three major plot developments. I could see what Kylo told Rey going either way in the next movie. And I'm ambivalent about what I want the truth to be. Both have pros and cons.
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Post by Shinobu on Dec 26, 2017 0:28:09 GMT
Hated the movie, myself. Not for its own sake, but what it does to the happy ending of RotJ(my favorite Star Wars movie). I didn't expect things to be all hunky-dory after Episode VI. There's still an Empire to defeat. And war...war never changes. But to have ALL THREE heroes of the previous trilogy fail utterly at what they set out to do? Yeah, that is unnecessary. Leia's failure to form a new government that does not repeat the same mistakes of the Old Republic? Han's growth from smuggler to 'General Solo' regressing because his kid turned bad? Luke failing at his one job after RotJ? This story could have been accomplished without all of them looking like spectacular failures in the wake of RotJ's great victory. All that being said, I fail to see what's so bad about Leia turning into Mary Poppins. That doesn't bother me one bit. I'm far more leery of the 'green milk' scene. That was completely unnecessary. Yeah, I'm saddened by the way things turned out. I really wanted them to stay together and build something great. However, I'm still interested in finding out where this new trilogy goes.
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Post by colfoley on Dec 26, 2017 0:29:15 GMT
I just hope they don't retcon any of the three major plot developments. I could see what Kylo told Rey going either way in the next movie. And I'm ambivalent about what I want the truth to be. Both have pros and cons. indeed. But it was such a thematic and interesting twist, almost worthy of the twist from Empire, that unless jj is really careful him changing it could cheapen it.
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Post by KaiserShep on Dec 26, 2017 0:41:19 GMT
Quite a bit.
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Post by Iakus on Dec 26, 2017 14:31:00 GMT
Luke had one job: "Pass on what you have learned" Bring back the Jedi. Instead he became a beach bum on the Island of the Porgs and could barely be stirred to teach Rey anything. THis isn't about a "happily ever after" this is about wasting the best years of his life. About giving up on life. This is a guy who didn't give up on redeeming Dark F*cking Vader after getting his hand cut off the last time he confronted him! And he did. For what looks to be around ~15 years he tried to pass on what he learned. But what he saw was that in doing so, despite his best efforts against it, he would end up exposing his sister and best friend's son to more and more of the Dark Side until it gave rise to a monster. A pattern of fate that seemed inextricably linked to the teachings of the Jedi. He wasn't just "meh" about teaching Rey; he was terrified of where that could lead her. He didn't give up on his father because he believed in the good of the Force and the Jedi teachings. That belief was shaken after what happened with Kylo Ren. After that point, he became convinced that the thing he had devoted his life to and trusted was actually a pathway to ruin. He didn't quit because things got hard. He quit because he no longer believed in what he was doing. The Jedi teachings said to kill Vader. Yoda told him to, Obi-Won told him to. He defied them both, risked his life and his soul to make the attempt. And he succeeded! And Vader is the man who destroyed the old Jedi Order, handed the Republic over to Palpatine. Helped destroy Alderaan. Killed Ben Kenobi before his eyes. Slaughtered countless innocents. Tortured Leia and Han. Not to mention maimed Luke himself when he last confronted him! All that, and Luke didn't give up! If he had failed despite his best efforts to turn Ben to the Light, that might have been one thing. He couldn't duplicate the miracle. But here Luke didn't even try. He didn't even try to turn Ben back to the Light. He didn't train more apprentices. He didn't help against the First Order. He left Han and Leia to their fates. He sat on an island and waited to die.
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Post by DomeWing333 on Dec 26, 2017 17:24:57 GMT
If he had failed despite his best efforts to turn Ben to the Light, that might have been one thing. He couldn't duplicate the miracle. But here Luke didn't even try. He didn't even try to turn Ben back to the Light. He didn't train more apprentices. He didn't help against the First Order. He left Han and Leia to their fates. He sat on an island and waited to die. That is precisely what happened. The scene we saw of Luke standing over Kylo wasn't the first moment he saw the darkness within him. He had sensed the darkness inside Ben for a while by then and tried for years and years to try to guide Ben towards the good side of the Force using everything he knew. And that resulted in the deaths or corruption of literally all of the kids he had been training. It's unrealistic to expect him to be able to simply pick up the pieces and try again after something like that. It's also worth noting that Luke didn't leave at a time when the First Order were this established, planet-killing force they showed thenselves to be in TFA. The republic was still in power when Luke closed himself off from the Force and thus the world. Even if he did sense the threat, he no longer believed in the Force and in himself as instruments of good in the world.
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Post by masterwarderz on Dec 26, 2017 17:29:08 GMT
If he had failed despite his best efforts to turn Ben to the Light, that might have been one thing. He couldn't duplicate the miracle. But here Luke didn't even try. He didn't even try to turn Ben back to the Light. He didn't train more apprentices. He didn't help against the First Order. He left Han and Leia to their fates. He sat on an island and waited to die. it's unrealistic to expect him to be able to simply pick up the pieces and try again after something like that. Except apparently to Mark Hamill
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Post by Iakus on Dec 26, 2017 17:52:38 GMT
If he had failed despite his best efforts to turn Ben to the Light, that might have been one thing. He couldn't duplicate the miracle. But here Luke didn't even try. He didn't even try to turn Ben back to the Light. He didn't train more apprentices. He didn't help against the First Order. He left Han and Leia to their fates. He sat on an island and waited to die. That is precisely what happened. The scene we saw of Luke standing over Kylo wasn't the first moment he saw the darkness within him. He had sensed the darkness inside Ben for a while by then and tried for years and years to try to guide Ben towards the good side of the Force using everything he knew. And that resulted in the deaths or corruption of literally all of the kids he had been training. It's unrealistic to expect him to be able to simply pick up the pieces and try again after something like that. It's also worth noting that Luke didn't leave at a time when the First Order were this established, planet-killing force they showed thenselves to be in TFA. The republic was still in power when Luke closed himself off from the Force and thus the world. Even if he did sense the threat, he no longer believed in the Force and in himself as instruments of good in the world. No, what happened was Luke was caught standing over his nephew with an ignited lightsaber intending to kill him. I call BS on that. And it is totally realistic for him to pick up the pieces after that. He redeemed a guy who BLEW UP A PLANET!!! And again, he abandoned Han and Leia. He abandoned Ben. Both in their fight against the First Order and themselves personally. He failed the galaxy, in leaving it without guardians. He abdicated his responsibilities.
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Post by House Targaryen on Dec 26, 2017 22:19:04 GMT
In regards to Luke, even the mightiest of heroes can fall so far from the top of the pedestal, that they are so broken up from their own self pity and self hatred that they are beyond repair just like evil bad guys are beyond redemption.
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Post by Artemis on Dec 26, 2017 22:36:25 GMT
This is a good poll because I think it shows a great majority likes the film but probably feels reluctant to engage with those who are basically taking over the discussion in the actual SW thread.
I would be open to someone starting a "positive discussion" about SW. And by "positive" I mean we don't just lavish the film with praise like sycophants but we just have fun and geek out about SW in general... instead of the usual BSN hateful mud-slinging.
Pretty much every time I visit the SW thread most of it is blocked b/c I've blocked so many hateful people. It's impossible to have a fun discussion there. Retitle that one to the SW hate fan club.
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Post by malanek on Dec 26, 2017 22:39:48 GMT
I liked it well and must say I loved actually being surprised while watching a star wars movie. I am however getting a little sick of the "ray of hope" endings we have had recently. Revenge of the Sith, Force Awakens, Rogue One and now the Last Jedi all have what could largely be considered overall defeats with a bit of hope. I want something more emotionally uplifting.
I was fine with Luke's character. I envisaged him becoming a pacifist (I doubt another meaningful reason could be invented given what the previous movie left) who would sacrifice his morals to help in the end and that was pretty close to what happened. I don't think he should have been made to be so uncaring though. He could have simply been more polite and explained why he wasn't prepared to fight rather than turn Rey away.
My biggest complaint, apart from the lack of emotional uplift, was actually a scene other people seem to like. When the general went all hyperspace on the dreadnoughts arse, I just started to wonder why Death stars were such feared weapons. If the technology worked like that they simply wouldn't be even close to cost effective for a war.
However I liked the start, liked the character development of Poe, Rey, Kylo, and Luke (yes really). I liked that Rey wasn't related to someone special, I liked that Snoke, the much less interesting villain, bit the dust so easily. The humour generally worked well. Overall I liked it and how it actually resolved some of JJ's weird ideas in a believable manner.
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Post by mybudgee on Dec 26, 2017 22:58:16 GMT
I just hope they don't retcon any of the three major plot developments. Go on...
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Post by colfoley on Dec 26, 2017 23:03:40 GMT
I just hope they don't retcon any of the three major plot developments. Go on... well Rey's parentage, Luke's death, and Snoke's death. I could easily see JJ changing two of those to fit his own ideas which risks cheapening what RIan did do. Snakes death would be the easiest to change. But you are already seeing people go 'Oh no that Rey stuff was BS...she is...palpatines daughter!'
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Post by mybudgee on Dec 26, 2017 23:22:58 GMT
well Rey's parentage, Luke's death, and Snoke's death. I could easily see JJ changing two of those to fit his own ideas which risks cheapening what RIan did do. Snakes death would be the easiest to change. But you are already seeing people go 'Oh no that Rey stuff was BS...she is...palpatines daughter!'
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Post by Andrew Waples on Dec 26, 2017 23:37:27 GMT
well Rey's parentage, Luke's death, and Snoke's death. I could easily see JJ changing two of those to fit his own ideas which risks cheapening what RIan did do. Snakes death would be the easiest to change. But you are already seeing people go 'Oh no that Rey stuff was BS...she is...palpatines daughter!' I just don't want them to be like, "Oh see!? Ren was lying to Rey the whole time! These are her real parents!" *insert John Williams dramatic music It'll once again cheapen the ending of TLJ when broomkid gets revealed he has the force. Implying you don't have to come from somebody to have the force.
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Post by Iakus on Dec 26, 2017 23:39:50 GMT
well Rey's parentage, Luke's death, and Snoke's death. I could easily see JJ changing two of those to fit his own ideas which risks cheapening what RIan did do. Snakes death would be the easiest to change. But you are already seeing people go 'Oh no that Rey stuff was BS...she is...palpatines daughter!' I just don't want them to be like, "Oh see!? Ren was lying to Rey the whole time! These are her real parents!" *insert John Williams dramatic music It'll once again cheapen the ending of TLJ when broomkid gets revealed he has the force. Implying you don't to come from somebody to have the force.
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Post by DomeWing333 on Dec 26, 2017 23:47:02 GMT
No, what happened was Luke was caught standing over his nephew with an ignited lightsaber intending to kill him. I call BS on that. And it is totally realistic for him to pick up the pieces after that. He redeemed a guy who BLEW UP A PLANET!!! And again, he abandoned Han and Leia. He abandoned Ben. Both in their fight against the First Order and themselves personally. He failed the galaxy, in leaving it without guardians. He abdicated his responsibilities. Refer to my initial post regarding why that was not BS. And I think you're misunderstanding my argument as "Kylo Ren killed all of Luke's other students and so he cannot be redeemed," when the point is actually "Luke doesn't feel capable of redeeming someone after utterly failing to save Kylo and all his other students from the Dark Side." He did all of things, yeah. What I'm talking about is why. Think about a doctor who accidentally kills every single one of his patient in one night because of a mistake. Forgoing any lawsuits and loss of licensure, doesn't it make sense for him to quit practicing medicine because of that? Even if it means abandoning his responsibilities as a provider for this family and everyone who depends on him, it would feel to him like the right thing to do.
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Post by Iakus on Dec 27, 2017 0:00:23 GMT
No, what happened was Luke was caught standing over his nephew with an ignited lightsaber intending to kill him. I call BS on that. And it is totally realistic for him to pick up the pieces after that. He redeemed a guy who BLEW UP A PLANET!!! And again, he abandoned Han and Leia. He abandoned Ben. Both in their fight against the First Order and themselves personally. He failed the galaxy, in leaving it without guardians. He abdicated his responsibilities. Refer to my initial post regarding why that was not BS. And I think you're misunderstanding my argument as "Kylo Ren killed all of Luke's other students and so he cannot be redeemed," when the point is actually "Luke doesn't feel capable of redeeming someone after utterly failing to save Kylo and all his other students from the Dark Side." He did all of things, yeah. What I'm talking about is why. Think about a doctor who accidentally kills every single one of his patient in one night because of a mistake. Forgoing any lawsuits and loss of licensure, doesn't it make sense for him to quit practicing medicine because of that? Even if it means abandoning his responsibilities as a provider for this family and everyone who depends on him, it would feel to him like the right thing to do. No, it makes sense to find out why he failed and pass that knowledge on to others so it doesn't happen again. "It's time for the doctors to end" LOL Heck this doctor, to use your analogy, unleashed a deadly plague on the galaxy and is just sitting by while innocent people succumb to it.
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Post by malanek on Dec 27, 2017 0:27:06 GMT
Refer to my initial post regarding why that was not BS. And I think you're misunderstanding my argument as "Kylo Ren killed all of Luke's other students and so he cannot be redeemed," when the point is actually "Luke doesn't feel capable of redeeming someone after utterly failing to save Kylo and all his other students from the Dark Side." He did all of things, yeah. What I'm talking about is why. Think about a doctor who accidentally kills every single one of his patient in one night because of a mistake. Forgoing any lawsuits and loss of licensure, doesn't it make sense for him to quit practicing medicine because of that? Even if it means abandoning his responsibilities as a provider for this family and everyone who depends on him, it would feel to him like the right thing to do. No, it makes sense to find out why he failed and pass that knowledge on to others so it doesn't happen again. "It's time for the doctors to end" LOL Heck this doctor, to use your analogy, unleashed a deadly plague on the galaxy and is just sitting by while innocent people succumb to it. I think the doctor analogy is more trying to explain the drastic effects a traumatic experience can have on a person rather than the general moralistic philosophy your reply interpreted it as. And those are not really related. I have always been a bit shaky on star wars philosophy. If Luke cut Palpatine in half at the end of Return of the Jedi, I don't believe that would have made him evil or turn him to the dark side. But when he didn't, and successfully brought his father back, he had effectively become a pacifist already. His final scene continues this, he continues to try to influence his former student without fighting him. He views the former Jedi as liars and hypocrites, which they almost certainly are. They preach peace yet practice violence. The Jedi were at least partially responsible for the rise of Vadar, the rise of the empire and Palpatine, and the rise of Kylo Ren. He has twice felt the anger in his own heart and come close to succumbing to it. And yet in the end, Luke realises all this but still decides the philosophy, or something similar, is worth persisting with as he seems proud of Rey.
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Post by Iakus on Dec 27, 2017 15:37:55 GMT
No, it makes sense to find out why he failed and pass that knowledge on to others so it doesn't happen again. "It's time for the doctors to end" LOL Heck this doctor, to use your analogy, unleashed a deadly plague on the galaxy and is just sitting by while innocent people succumb to it. I think the doctor analogy is more trying to explain the drastic effects a traumatic experience can have on a person rather than the general moralistic philosophy your reply interpreted it as. And those are not really related. I have always been a bit shaky on star wars philosophy. If Luke cut Palpatine in half at the end of Return of the Jedi, I don't believe that would have made him evil or turn him to the dark side. But when he didn't, and successfully brought his father back, he had effectively become a pacifist already. His final scene continues this, he continues to try to influence his former student without fighting him. He views the former Jedi as liars and hypocrites, which they almost certainly are. They preach peace yet practice violence. The Jedi were at least partially responsible for the rise of Vadar, the rise of the empire and Palpatine, and the rise of Kylo Ren. He has twice felt the anger in his own heart and come close to succumbing to it. And yet in the end, Luke realises all this but still decides the philosophy, or something similar, is worth persisting with as he seems proud of Rey. The point remains, Luke did FA to try to correct his "mistake" And Luke was never the giving up type. And it doesn't seem to be killing that leads to the Dark Side, but striking out in anger, fear, or other "Dark Side" emotions. Palpatine was trying to goad Luke into giving in to those emotions, and Luke was having none of it (probably not realizing the Emperor was not as helpless as he appeared) What Luke did at the very end is something Luke SHOULD HAVE been doing for the last X number of years. Or training a new crop of students to do it. Not moping on an island waiting to die. Until Disney's new Chosen One arrives to show him the error of his ways
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Post by Shinobu on Dec 27, 2017 15:57:44 GMT
I feel weird liking both DomeWing333's and Iakus' posts, but there you have it. I'm not the guy yelling "fight, fight, fight!" on the sidelines; I really do see both sides of the argument. Like Iakus, I'm very disappointed in the way the lives and personalities of the OT three have turned out the new trilogy and it's saddening that it is now "canon," but like Domewing333 I can see how it might have come about and find it interesting to explore. Is it OOC for Luke to be so hopeless? Yes, unless we take a leap of faith that "reaaaally bad stuff happened to him offscreen in the intervening years." Rian went that route and I'm open to seeing where it leads.
Kevin Smith brought up Alan Dean Foster's Splinter of the Mind's Eye in his review. Back in the day while we were waiting for ESB this "sequel" to Star Wars was published, and those of us who wanted more Star Wars ate it up. It turned out that we got ESB instead, so with that experience and all the other tie-in stuff (books, comics, cartoons, etc.) I guess I'm not wedded to anything as canon. I almost see the new trilogy as an amazing fanfiction rather than taking it as "OMG, this is now officially what happened." In that light it's easier for me to let go of the stuff I don't really like and concentrate on what's new and interesting. I understand that that approach might not work for others, though.
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Post by BamBam the Destroyer on Dec 28, 2017 0:38:59 GMT
Just saw it, and it reminded me a LOT of Avatar in that:
-It is compelling and fun if you let the visuals carry it and don't think into anything.
-If you try to analyze it, you will be disappointed horribly.
Avatar 0.5: Star Wars Edition
Worth a watch? Yes, it's a fantastic spectacle. Worth more than that? No.
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The night is dark and full of terrors, but the fire burns them all away.
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Post by House Targaryen on Dec 28, 2017 1:12:38 GMT
I thought I read it all today until this gem showed up on Twitter. If you don’t think Leia and Holdo are lovers, I’m sorry I can’t help you.
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