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Post by shinary on Oct 5, 2017 23:29:50 GMT
Paralells. Paralells. We do know that there were very intentional ones between a lot of companions/Inky, but considering that they've known at least the basic directions where they were heading, they likely began putting in parallels in earlier material. I mean, Hawke also shares some parallels with Solas. He does? I must be missing something
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Post by midnight tea on Oct 5, 2017 23:32:35 GMT
Paralells. Paralells. We do know that there were very intentional ones between a lot of companions/Inky, but considering that they've known at least the basic directions where they were heading, they likely began putting in parallels in earlier material. I mean, Hawke also shares some parallels with Solas. He does? I must be missing something Hawke is not the luckiest individual ;P
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Post by shinary on Oct 5, 2017 23:34:56 GMT
He does? I must be missing something Hawke is not the luckiest individual ;P True, but to be fair I don't know of anyone in the Dragon Age universe, who is lucky. It all just seems to go to shit constantly (on another note. Playing origins... I had forgotten how much I hate the fade! I'll just do what Iron Bull does... blame Krem!)
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Post by legbamel on Oct 6, 2017 1:09:19 GMT
I think the Void is one of the far reaches of the Fade or possible the mirror image of the Fade, so it could be an alternate universe. Clearly in elven lore it is a place since Andruil is said to have gone there with very bad consequences for herself and her followers. It may well also be the place known to the Dalish as "Banal'han", the "Place of Nothing", where they believe the Blight originated from. Enough evidence there to suggest that the Blight was around long before the Magisters stepped into the Golden/Black City. I also have a theory that Falon'Din may have always known how to get there and would hang out there a lot. "Falon’Din had no fear of the night and would walk where the People could not live." Of course it is possible that this simply refers to the Fade as even in ancient times before the Veil the majority of people couldn't just enter the Fade in their material form, so couldn't "live" there but I do wonder if in fact it was the Void. If the Fade is the source of all life, then its opposite, the Void, is the place of death, decay and ultimate annihilation, so you become nothing. I sort of wonder how removing the Veil will work, as in how the Fade used to work. If the Veil isn't a physical thing but you still couldn't enter the Fade physically before it existed, what is it? I actually don't remember lore saying that there was a Fade to enter. (Oh, darn, more research for me!) Did spirits wander freely in the physical world or were they still somehow restrained and it just easier to do lucid dreaming? I recall Solas (or someone) saying that the Elvhen could shape reality with their minds, leading to the whole floating cities and spires of crystal thing. It seems from that description that the Fade was more blended with reality than a separate place to go, or at least that they overlapped in some way. I like the idea of Falon'Din being a guide to and from the Void, making him a sort of accomplish to Andruil perhaps. [strokes chin] Ah, yes, the conspiracy is coming together.
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Post by midnight tea on Oct 6, 2017 1:57:58 GMT
I think the Void is one of the far reaches of the Fade or possible the mirror image of the Fade, so it could be an alternate universe. Clearly in elven lore it is a place since Andruil is said to have gone there with very bad consequences for herself and her followers. It may well also be the place known to the Dalish as "Banal'han", the "Place of Nothing", where they believe the Blight originated from. Enough evidence there to suggest that the Blight was around long before the Magisters stepped into the Golden/Black City. I also have a theory that Falon'Din may have always known how to get there and would hang out there a lot. "Falon’Din had no fear of the night and would walk where the People could not live." Of course it is possible that this simply refers to the Fade as even in ancient times before the Veil the majority of people couldn't just enter the Fade in their material form, so couldn't "live" there but I do wonder if in fact it was the Void. If the Fade is the source of all life, then its opposite, the Void, is the place of death, decay and ultimate annihilation, so you become nothing. I sort of wonder how removing the Veil will work, as in how the Fade used to work. If the Veil isn't a physical thing but you still couldn't enter the Fade physically before it existed, what is it? I actually don't remember lore saying that there was a Fade to enter. (Oh, darn, more research for me!) Did spirits wander freely in the physical world or were they still somehow restrained and it just easier to do lucid dreaming? I recall Solas (or someone) saying that the Elvhen could shape reality with their minds, leading to the whole floating cities and spires of crystal thing. It seems from that description that the Fade was more blended with reality than a separate place to go, or at least that they overlapped in some way. To be honest, we don't know for sure. We've only recently learned that the Fade and the world were once one, so that's sort of thrown things out of the orbit a tiiiiiny bit.... At this point, from my understanding, the Fade is sort of a natural phenomenon native to Thedas. Kinda like gravity, but not anything we can compare it to in our world. And, according to Cole's comment it's still everywhere, but 'structured, Veiled'. So, it would seem like it's not exactly pushed away from the world, but the Veil has some sort of dampening effect on it. It also allows for creation of separate dimensions, but I'm not sure whether it should be thought of as a dimension itself? Perhaps the reason we can visit it physically is because it's like Crossroads or Vir Dirthara, but it sort of coagulated into raw Fade on its own once the Veil sundered it from real world... and even though it still reflects the world of the living (according to Solas) it only does so very roughly? It could explain why the raw Fade is sort of neither here or there in terms of coherent structure - but it seemingly is still a structure of some sort once we enter it. Gawd, I feel my brain twisting into a pretzel when I try to think about it~_~ Well, I do have a bit of a elaborate theory about Falon'Din and Fade/Void... which I'll just quote below because I'm too lazy to rewrite or summarize it now xD;;; On the subject of Falon'Din, I think there are clues in the Song to Falon'Din in the Temple of Mythal: The People swore their lives to Falon'Din Who mastered the dark that lies. Whose shadows hunger Whose faithful sing Whose wings of death surround him thick as night. Lethanavir, master scryer, be our guide, Through shapeless worlds and airless skies. Hmmm... this passage sort of tells me that we may actually not be talking about the Fade. Why? Because - consistently - the synonym for "Fade" in Thedosian literature is " air" (and sometimes "sky" or heavens"). We find it - most importantly - even in Vir Dirthara, where spirits are called by elves to be their "brethren of the air". I think what the song is referring to may actually be the Void. I mean, even the name sort of suggests that it's a place that is sort of empty, hence 'airless'. And when Solas's spirit friend had died, he has specifically mentioned that there are 'stirrings of energy in the Void', even though this is probably the only time when he uses this word in any reference to Fade or any immaterial realm. I'm curious, what do you mean? I mostly mean what Falon'Din and Fade are generally associated with: Falon'Din - death, night and shadows (already I imagine him as goth!Evanuris of the bunch) Fade - air and sky (oftentimes songs/melody too), something breezy and light Even more so, a Song to Falon'Din has these verses: Lethanavir, master-scryer, be our guide, Through shapeless worlds and airless skiesThat IMO is sort of the biggest hint so far - if the Fade is thought of as being the 'air', then his 'airless' domain (or places he's capable to guide people through) can't be the Fade. Or at least not the whole of it - we do know that there are areas or aspects of the Fade (though some sources claim that it's in all of things) that are called the Void, and that place is generally thought of across various religions as nothingness, which 'shapeless worlds' and 'airless skies' fit quite well. Heck, the Void for Adrastians is basically an equivalent of our hell - but also apparently where the 'well of souls/life' is. Here lies the abyss, the well of all souls. From these emerald waters doth life begin anew. Come to me, child, and I shall embrace you. In my arms lies Eternity.
I assume that's why Solas mentions the Void when he tells us that there are stirrings in it after his friend's death. Big clue - this is likely where spirits (and souls?) go when they get destroyed, but also where they get reborn or reforged. If such is the case, then it makes perfect sense for Falon'Din to be the lord of death whose domain is the Void - guiding people to that strange, dark place where everything ends, and likely begins anew. That also makes him quite goddamn important - at least in terms of function in the realm. That is of course if we assume that he didn't just usurp his power or position as the guide and exploited the whole thing to unknown ends. IMO? The Void is one of those places which is important to the world, but also one that is dangerous - in fact we do have good basis to claim it's dangerous, if we assume that codex about Andrul speaks things that are accurate: She began stalking The Forgotten Ones, wicked things that thrive in the abyss. Yet even a god should not linger there, and each time she entered the Void, Andruil suffered longer and longer periods of madness after returning. Andruil put on armor made of the Void, and all forgot her true face. She made weapons of darkness, and plague ate her lands. She howled things meant to be forgotten, and the other gods became fearful Andruil would hunt them in turn.That sounds more than spooky. Another interesting thing is that it's mentioned that Void is apparently a place the Forgotten Ones dwell - and as we know at one point or another Solas was thought of as kin both by Evanuris and Forgotten Ones. So he knows the Void (based on both this and his personal quest), yet apparently it doesn't pose the danger to him as much as it does to Andruil. Maybe it's almost a situation like the one with demons: if he knows its nature and brings no corrupting influences, the the Void will not become twisted or twist the one who enters it. Either way, it's highly possible that both he and Falon'Din knows a safe way to either cross or enter it. But - probably unlike Solas - Falon'Din likely sought something in the Void that should probably be left alone or did something that has disturbed the general balance. It's a far fetched assumption, but I really wouldn't be surprised if such was the case. Because while the Void is obviously characterized as dangerous and shapeless, it's probably not just a straightforward 'evil realm', while we do know from both records in the world and Solas's comments that Falon'Din wasn't exactly made of sugar, spice and everything nice
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Post by ellawyn on Oct 6, 2017 2:08:11 GMT
Y'all sillies. On a completely different note, what do you guys make of Fenris? His general character has been a bit of a ? for me since Trespasser. Not because it doesn't make sense or anything, just that he seems like such a Solas-prototype. Elf, wolf motif, escaped slave who likes to blab a lot about freedom. Murders people in vengeance during his personal quest. Breaks up with the protagonist. Actually comes back.I mean, apparently Fenris was even bald in original concept art (Concept Solas' hair must've escaped to his head.) Obviously, we can assume that he's intended to "prime" the audience in a certain way, upholding that theme of slavery and freedom which ties back into Solas. But it just seems like there's so much overlap. To the point where I feel like there's some plot significance to it, but Fenris is such a tangential character that I don't see him coming back in any big way. Maybe he was supposed to be more important, but got swept under the rug along with everything else from DA2. Well, the same could be said for Anders and Solas. Fighting against oppression. Willing to go to any means to achieve them. Can be very kind, compassionate and selfless, yet extremely vengeful. A heavy sense of morals and focus on freedom and equal rights. Will lie and deceive in order to get their way. Fond of spirits. No offense to Fenris (sorry Fenris lovers), but his story arc is about HIS punishment, HIS suffering, HIS revenge and HIS freedom. He doesn't really give a damn about anyone, but himself unless they are directly in his path. Also he thinks small scale and short term. Solas and Anders are the other way around. Yes they have some backstory, that influences them, but when they speak and act it's about other people - it's about their people. Everything they do is in larger context - which is how they justify the deaths they cause. Anders: Blows up the chantry and sacrificing some, so that in the long run more mages might have freedom. Solas: "Blows up" the world, to restore his people so they are no longer enslaved, poor and so they can have their freedom back. Solas and Fenris do have some things in common, but I actually think that Solas is much more like Anders, than he is Fenris. Hmm. I've gotta disagree about Fenris. I think he has some compassion and consciousness of other people. You only have to look at how uppity he gets whenever Hawke deals with slavers to see proof of that. For instance, he immediately gets on your case about Orana if you hire her, thinking you're just taking on another slave. I don't think that fits with a character who only cares about himself, and his freedoms. Now, Fenris is definitely a "smaller-picture" kind of guy. He's not trying to upend the whole system, like Anders or Solas. But I think that's less about his character and more about his capability. He can't upend Tevinter slavery, at least not right now. He's being actively and specifically antagonized by Danarius (As opposed to Anders, who has no one looking for him, in particular, until the Chantry thing.) and besides, he's not even in Tevinter right now. I could be wrong, because I can't remember if it's canon or fanon, but I seem to recall hearing that Fenris is mostly hunting slavers and freeing slaves now. So he is concerned about others, and trying to help them.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2017 2:49:05 GMT
Hmm. I've gotta disagree about Fenris. I think he has some compassion and consciousness of other people. You only have to look at how uppity he gets whenever Hawke deals with slavers to see proof of that. For instance, he immediately gets on your case about Orana if you hire her, thinking you're just taking on another slave. I don't think that fits with a character who only cares about himself, and his freedoms. Now, Fenris is definitely a "smaller-picture" kind of guy. He's not trying to upend the whole system, like Anders or Solas. But I think that's less about his character and more about his capability. He can't upend Tevinter slavery, at least not right now. He's being actively and specifically antagonized by Danarius (As opposed to Anders, who has no one looking for him, in particular, until the Chantry thing.) and besides, he's not even in Tevinter right now. I could be wrong, because I can't remember if it's canon or fanon, but I seem to recall hearing that Fenris is mostly hunting slavers and freeing slaves now. So he is concerned about others, and trying to help them. Yes, this is what Varric tells you Fenris is doing, if you ask about everyone from DA2 in his dialogue wheel.
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Post by shinary on Oct 6, 2017 4:49:53 GMT
Hmm. I've gotta disagree about Fenris. I think he has some compassion and consciousness of other people. You only have to look at how uppity he gets whenever Hawke deals with slavers to see proof of that. For instance, he immediately gets on your case about Orana if you hire her, thinking you're just taking on another slave. I don't think that fits with a character who only cares about himself, and his freedoms. Now, Fenris is definitely a "smaller-picture" kind of guy. He's not trying to upend the whole system, like Anders or Solas. But I think that's less about his character and more about his capability. He can't upend Tevinter slavery, at least not right now. He's being actively and specifically antagonized by Danarius (As opposed to Anders, who has no one looking for him, in particular, until the Chantry thing.) and besides, he's not even in Tevinter right now. I could be wrong, because I can't remember if it's canon or fanon, but I seem to recall hearing that Fenris is mostly hunting slavers and freeing slaves now. So he is concerned about others, and trying to help them. It's true, he does later on. But his story arc during DA2 is about himself. He dislikes slavery and everything, but he is not actively doing anything during that period. I am not claiming that he is selfish, because he isn't - but very little in his story arc evolves around anything, but himself (due to writing, not selfishness). And I disagree about Anders. He potentially has every templar in Kirkwall, who is out to get him (and Sebastian ) where Fenris just has one magister. But in this context, I am merely talking about his story arc and his motivations during that time. And from that perspective Solas and Fenris have very little in common. Their motivations and personalities differ greatly in my opinion.
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Post by ellawyn on Oct 6, 2017 6:21:14 GMT
Hmm. I've gotta disagree about Fenris. I think he has some compassion and consciousness of other people. You only have to look at how uppity he gets whenever Hawke deals with slavers to see proof of that. For instance, he immediately gets on your case about Orana if you hire her, thinking you're just taking on another slave. I don't think that fits with a character who only cares about himself, and his freedoms. Now, Fenris is definitely a "smaller-picture" kind of guy. He's not trying to upend the whole system, like Anders or Solas. But I think that's less about his character and more about his capability. He can't upend Tevinter slavery, at least not right now. He's being actively and specifically antagonized by Danarius (As opposed to Anders, who has no one looking for him, in particular, until the Chantry thing.) and besides, he's not even in Tevinter right now. I could be wrong, because I can't remember if it's canon or fanon, but I seem to recall hearing that Fenris is mostly hunting slavers and freeing slaves now. So he is concerned about others, and trying to help them. It's true, he does later on. But his story arc during DA2 is about himself. He dislikes slavery and everything, but he is not actively doing anything during that period. I am not claiming that he is selfish, because he isn't - but very little in his story arc evolves around anything, but himself (due to writing, not selfishness). And I disagree about Anders. He potentially has every templar in Kirkwall, who is out to get him (and Sebastian ) where Fenris just has one magister. But in this context, I am merely talking about his story arc and his motivations during that time. And from that perspective Solas and Fenris have very little in common. Their motivations and personalities differ greatly in my opinion. That's what I mean about Anders, though. The Templars are a danger to him, yes, but they aren't looking solely for him. They're looking for every apostate they can find. Danarius, meanwhile, only cares specifically about Fenris. Fenris even says as much - he can never do what Anders does and settle down somewhere, because Danarius always comes for him within weeks, if not sooner. It's only until joining up with Hawke that he gets any lengthy reprieve from the pursuit. Anyway, yeah, I'd say they differ in motivation. Fenris' arc is definitely smaller and more personal, while Solas' is - I mean, still personal, but also bigger in scale. I think they actually have a lot in common, personality-wise, though. Fenris is more outwardly angry and emotional, but Solas has just as much passion and rage. Both have strong ideals, and are not afraid to let you know it. Both have a vengeful streak a mile wide. Both are socially isolated, emotionally constipated shits who break up with their lover instead of trying to work through their issues. And of course, both like making noises about freedom. The most major conflict I see between the two is magic. And sure, Fenris hates magic, but his bias is founded on solely negative experiences. It's not dissimilar to how Solas hates the modern world. It actually struck during one scene - I think it's the one after you kill Danarius? - where Fenris says that his whole purpose has been killing the Magister, and he's not sure what to do with himself now. And Hawke can tell him to settle down and start anew. It's interesting to think about it in the context of Solas, especially since Fenris apparently does dedicate himself to dismantling the system that's oppressed him. I could see a younger Solas being pretty similar to Fenris - he's not exactly cocky, but plenty hot-blooded. Especially if Solas had a similar "I've saved myself, now I need to help out others" arc that Fenris (And Anders too, even.) went through. To be clear, though, I'm not trying to say he's got nothing in common with Anders. Plainly he does. It's just that A: The whole wolf motif and the near identical origin (Or - probably near identical. I guess we don't really know the specifics of Solas' enslavement, or even if he was truly a slave.) invites comparison, and B: I plain don't find Anders that interesting.
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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 6, 2017 7:57:11 GMT
I think you are on the right track with your theories. If the Void is where souls go on death then it would explain the connection Falon'Din has with guiding them there. It would also explain why you can't live there, because it is the land purely of spirits, which is why Andruil needed special armour even to enter it.
It might also explain the discrepancy in what the Chant says about the Fade and the reason it had such a bad effect on the Magisters when they entered it: "Violently were they cast down, For no mortal may walk bodily In the realm of dreams, Bearing the mark of their Crime: Bodies so maimed And distorted that none should see them And know them for men."
Clearly this was contradicted by our own experience of walking physically in the Fade. We entered there with our companions and suffered no ill effects from it. However, if the Magisters entered the Void, then this would explain the difference. The reason for the differing destination could be accounted for by the huge death toil in elven slaves that occurred to get them there. Then like Andruil they returned and brought plague with them, suffered from memory loss and several of them went insane.
It could also explain Falon'Din's increasing blood lust because even he wasn't proof against it entirely and he needed a constant supply of dead souls to justify him going there or maybe he wasn't guiding them there but following them, allowing them to show him the way. The reason the Forgotten Ones are said to live there is because, like the Forbidden Ones when they left the Waking World, they "cast aside their (physical) form" when they entered it.
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Post by Solas on Oct 6, 2017 13:00:43 GMT
now I'm curious and want a statistical breakdown of how many Salosmancers are Fenrismancers, how many are Andersmancers, and how many are "other"
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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 6, 2017 13:46:43 GMT
Another quick question concerning Fade lore and Solas, does anyone recall if he ever refers to it as the "Beyond". This is how the Dalish refer to the Fade and it is also referred to as such in one of the oldest parts of the Chant of Light, suggesting scholars are right and there are influences on the text from earlier lore. This is hardly surprising given that the ancient elven text from the Temple wound up in Alamarri songs. Solas normally uses ancient elven terms translated into the venacular, for example calling Varric a "Child of Stone", where it is relevant, so why doesn't he use the term Beyond for the Fade? Yet he mentions the Void. Neither of these are elven terms and yet his use of the term "the Void" is not in the same context as the Chantry lore since they are referring to an absence of the Maker. In the Chant of Light, the Abyss is the Well of Souls where life begins anew. Yet when we go to the Fade it is called "Into the Abyss" which suggests it is just another word for the Fade.
Are the writers being deliberately confusing or is it that the terms are interchangeable?
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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 6, 2017 13:52:56 GMT
I tend to romance elves even when I can't play them, so first run I was a Zevran, Fenris, Solas romancer. After my experience with Solas I may not be quite so eager to romance an elf in the future. I was looking forward to romancing Anders after Awakening but I decided against it after he nearly tore off Ellas' head and preferred to keep him as just a friend. In other words I had a narrow escape, ending up being abandoned by my lover for 2 years before I got an explanation(which also seems to be developing into a theme) but at least he didn't end up blowing anything up or threatening to do so.
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Post by ladyiolanthe on Oct 6, 2017 14:03:53 GMT
now I'm curious and want a statistical breakdown of how many Salosmancers are Fenrismancers, how many are Andersmancers, and how many are "other" Alistair, Anders, sort of Blackwall (never finished that game due to technical difficulties with saves over two machines), then Solas for me. I actually never even got Fenris in DA2. So I don't know what I'm missing out on, but I also have no inclination to play through DA2 again. Nothing against DA2 - I haven't ever played through/completed any of the DA games more than once. I've tried, but once I know the overarching story all the different paths to get there just aren't gripping enough for me, I guess.
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Post by ellawyn on Oct 6, 2017 14:56:08 GMT
now I'm curious and want a statistical breakdown of how many Salosmancers are Fenrismancers, how many are Andersmancers, and how many are "other" Ha! Alistair, Anders, Solas, actually. By the time I got Fenris' recruitment quest in DA2, I was so sick of side-questing and so eager to get on with the story that I skipped over it. It doesn't help that, as I recall, the quest description seemed pretty mundane. Certainly didn't suggest we'd be getting a companion out of it. But I didn't really get into Anders and his romance, for several reasons. I played the game all over again to get Fenris (And Carver, and keep Isabela. She left my first playthrough because I never talked to her or took her anywhere.) and I ended up... still not really getting into his character or romance, but I liked both a little more than Anders.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2017 15:03:28 GMT
Another quick question concerning Fade lore and Solas, does anyone recall if he ever refers to it as the "Beyond". This is how the Dalish refer to the Fade and it is also referred to as such in one of the oldest parts of the Chant of Light, suggesting scholars are right and there are influences on the text from earlier lore. This is hardly surprising given that the ancient elven text from the Temple wound up in Alamarri songs. Solas normally uses ancient elven terms translated into the venacular, for example calling Varric a "Child of Stone", where it is relevant, so why doesn't he use the term Beyond for the Fade? Yet he mentions the Void. Neither of these are elven terms and yet his use of the term "the Void" is not in the same context as the Chantry lore since they are referring to an absence of the Maker. In the Chant of Light, the Abyss is the Well of Souls where life begins anew. Yet when we go to the Fade it is called "Into the Abyss" which suggests it is just another word for the Fade. Are the writers being deliberately confusing or is it that the terms are interchangeable? Solas never calls it the Beyond, to my memory. The mission isn't called "Into the Abyss" it's "Here Lies the Abyss", as in the Abyss is in the Fade or could be part of it or near it, but the Fade is not necessarily the Abyss and vice versa. The Void is interchangeable with the Abyss, and is referenced in Andruil's ancient elvhen legends from the Arbor Wilds.So it seems like the Void can be accessed from the Fade, but is not the same place.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2017 15:06:32 GMT
now I'm curious and want a statistical breakdown of how many Salosmancers are Fenrismancers, how many are Andersmancers, and how many are "other" All elf harem. I am a simple woman with an appreciation for skinny pointy guys.
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Post by shinary on Oct 6, 2017 16:03:51 GMT
now I'm curious and want a statistical breakdown of how many Salosmancers are Fenrismancers, how many are Andersmancers, and how many are "other" DA:O - Alistair (got dumped in my first playthrough because i missed the persuade married option /heartbreak) - Zevran's fun and all, but he just doesn't appeal to me romantically at all. DA2 - Actually both. When I am a mage I romance Fenris and warrior/rogue goes for Anders. But in my "canon" it's Anders because his character had a larger impact on Thedas. (Chantry explosion /heartbreak) DA:I - Solas....... yeah.... Though I am not riding the pure elf train, I definitely have a type!
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Post by uirebhiril on Oct 6, 2017 16:58:32 GMT
I was all set to romance Zevran my first DAO playthrough, but yet another "I killed my lover, redeem me with your bosom" storyline just turned me right off of him. So I went with Alistair, who was fun, but by the time I played again I had outgrown his boyishness and eventually decided to give Zevran a fair chance. I can't really hate him for the lazy trope writing. He turns out to be quite the devoted and selfless partner. I'll totally own having a type for DA2 and DAI. Elf lover and proud.
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Post by ladyiolanthe on Oct 6, 2017 18:33:42 GMT
gervaise21 The main quest titles were all lines taken from the Chant of Light, so I'm not sure that I'd put a whole lot of stock in them. I think it was just a thematic nicety since the whole game had an overarching theme of religious belief or non-belief, and the organization your protagonist was in charge of had religious roots.
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Post by cloud9 on Oct 6, 2017 21:53:03 GMT
Not getting it either. First two passages are about hair and the other two are about her skin being "darker", which can mean anything - from farily dark to only a few shades darker. In reality I assume that this is supposed to distinguish Briala as a 'peasant' - back in the 'good old days' when Europe was predominantly white one could easily tell who was nobility ans who was not based on the color of skin: nobles could stay inside and wear expensive fabrics to cover their skin, hence oftentimes they were alabaster-white, while peasants had to work outside, hence more often than not they were tanned and therefore darker (not to mention all the ugly connotations of being darker with being dirty, sadly). Coincidentally, the same thing can be found in Japan - this is why geishas are powdering their faces white, while in many anime we can see that lower classes, like peasants and footmen oftentimes have somewhat darker skin color. If I recall correctly, there was something similar about highest castes in India and how they were lighter than 'plebs' - just not being exposed to the sun much. Incredibly sad, but this is likely how the whole 'darker means inferior' had cemented itself in more than one culture :[ You're not getting how passages that describe Briala as a woman of color - from the description of her hair to her skin color - make her a woman of color? It's like the writer is obvious writing about Briala as a woman of color and Celene despised her skin color, but want to have sex with her. Fetishism is the most common and toxic of interracial relationships.
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Post by Catilina on Oct 6, 2017 22:02:56 GMT
You're not getting how passages that describe Briala as a woman of color - from the description of her hair to her skin color - make her a woman of color? It's like the writer is obvious writing abour about Briala as a woman of color and Celene despised her skin color, but want to have sex with her. Fetishism is the most common and toxic of interracial relationships. Briala's an elf. If she would have been white as snow, she would be still an elf. Regardless her skin color: she's an elf.
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Post by cloud9 on Oct 6, 2017 22:08:56 GMT
It's like the writer is obvious writing abour about Briala as a woman of color and Celene despised her skin color, but want to have sex with her. Fetishism is the most common and toxic of interracial relationships. Briala's an elf. If she would have been white as snow, she would be still an elf. Regardless her skin color: she's an elf. Deny all you want but the writer did put Briala as a woman of color. I think you don't like people to point it out for what it is.
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Post by shinary on Oct 6, 2017 22:24:03 GMT
Briala's an elf. If she would have been white as snow, she would be still an elf. Regardless her skin color: she's an elf. Deny all you want but the writer did put Briala as a woman of color. I think you don't like people to point it out for what it is. If I remember correctly, its Briala that doesn't like the fact that her skin is a little darker, not Celene. Celene keeps thinking about how beautiful Briala is towards the end of the book. And the focus is not on her skin color it's on her being an elf. Also, please be kind. I don't know if you meant as such, but your last comment is a bit personal. Edit: Yes, it's Briala herself. Page 45: "Her skin was darker than Celene's, though she spent most days inside and showed no tan lines at the bare skin around her eyes. Briala tried to ignore it, but Celene knew that she was quietly ashamed of it." Celene then goes on about how beautiful she finds her.
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Post by midnight tea on Oct 6, 2017 22:36:12 GMT
Briala's an elf. If she would have been white as snow, she would be still an elf. Regardless her skin color: she's an elf. Deny all you want but the writer did put Briala as a woman of color. I think you don't like people to point it out for what it is. That was not the point of the comment. Most of Briala's problems stem from the fact that she's an elf, not PoC. Also - Briala's skin is tanned. There's an excerpt that explicitly states so in the book. "Her skin was darker than Celene's, though she spent most of her days inside and showed no tan lines at the bare skin around her eyes. Briala tried to ignore it, but Celene knew that she was quietly ashamed of it. Not the ears that gave her away as elven even beneath the mask, not the lovely liquid eyes, but her sun-touched skin, dotted with a spray of lovely freckles."It's actually one of more obvious (and stupider, but hey, we people can be stupid that way) origins of racial prejudices based on skin color (not-nobility - darker skin color; nobility - lighter skin color due to not having to spend so much time in the sun), so it's not like both things aren't related. But Briala's issue with her skin is that it's sun-kissed and whether she's actually PoC or not is not really addressed. And while I can't speak for the author I don't think Weekes would be opposed if people imagined her that way. The main heroine of his own book is PoC after all.
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