NightSymphony
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Still in Solavellan Hell.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by NightSymphony on Jun 6, 2022 23:19:07 GMT
Wow... I haven't been here in a couple of years. It's so nice to see people are still here.
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Post by ladyiolanthe on Jun 6, 2022 23:48:41 GMT
Whilst checking back on Solas' appearance in Tevinter Nights, I noticed something that I had missed before; the dramatic irony of his confrontation with the Mortalitasi. Oblivious to his true identity, she is arrogantly boasting about how her order are the truest of mages for the magic they can perform despite what others may claim, who have no right to criticise those like her who can "bind the Fade and the world beneath it to their will". Then after reprimanding the Carta dwarf for doing so, she turns to the Orlesian Bard, who is Solas in disguise, and says: "I will not answer to you either, Orlesian. When you can stand in the Fade and turn the raw chaos to your own purpose through sheer force of will, then I will accept your opinions on whether my magic is safe or appropriate." I imagine Solas was grateful that his Orlesian mask concealed his true expression at that moment. I can't helping thinking he gave a knowing smile, inwardly if not visible on his face. The odd thing about that is that checking back, I can't seem to find an instance in the short story where he does this. Is she just assuming disapproval or are we to assume that perhaps he did question her methods before Charters arrival? We know it can't have escaped his notice that she has bound a wisp to her service and uses it for the trivial, mundane task of stirring her drink. We know from his conversation with Dorian how he feels about mages binding spirits to their will and using them as they would slaves. However, she then goes on to narrate her encounter with the Dread Wolf in the Fade and his declaration: "From this moment; should you ever bind a spirit; then your life is mine." Little did she know that Fen'Harel was about to make good his promise. I don't think it's so odd - to the Mortalitasi, he's just some Orlesian bard. Orlais is the seat of the Southern Chantry and the prejudice towards mages (best to keep them locked up because you never know when one will go nuclear and become an abomination!) is pretty strong among Orlesians. Nevarra has a different opinion of mages and Nevarrans afford the Mortalitasi, especially, a significant amount of respect. She is probably just deciding, based on her preconceived notions of Orlesians, that this "Orlesian" has Opinions about mages like most other Orlesians do. ETA: Yes, I did like the follow-through of Solas carrying out his threat to the Mortalitasi when she proved she had not listened to his warning about binding spirits.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jun 7, 2022 7:37:15 GMT
I don't think it's so odd - to the Mortalitasi, he's just some Orlesian bard. Orlais is the seat of the Southern Chantry and the prejudice towards mages (best to keep them locked up because you never know when one will go nuclear and become an abomination!) is pretty strong among Orlesians. I get that and she does mention before this how she knows people disapprove even if they don't openly say so. It is just that it is clear on Charter's arrival that there is a fair bit of tension between the group and the Carta dwarf was complaining about having to listen to the others whilst waiting, so it is possible that Solas could have expressed disapproval to the Mortalitasi but in a manner consistent with being an Orlesian, the majority of whom, as you say, would be very wary of this mage would binds spirits and even has one doing her bidding in the room with them. Still, perhaps he was content to simply watch and wait for his moment to make good on his threat back in the Fade. You have to admit though, it was ironic, that she declares he would only have the right to judge her when "he can stand in the Fade and turn the raw chaos to his own purpose", when that is exactly what he has done in the past and aims to do in the future, so even without the previous threat of retribution if she ever bound a spirit again, she has just agreed that he does have the authority to judge her actions. This is why I imagined him quietly smiling to himself, knowing she has condemned herself.
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Post by NeverlandHunter on Jun 17, 2022 3:52:15 GMT
Wow... I haven't been here in a couple of years. It's so nice to see people are still here. I feel like I wander on to visit every year or so. The Dragon Age obsession kept the desire to remain in this community alive. Other than the game itself, I look forward to chatting with a bunch of hyper-fixated Solas nerds again. You all are my people, lol. I finally got my partner to play through Inquisition. I literally was bouncing in my seat when he got to the post-credit reveal. Then laughed gleefully at his realization that Solas took all the equipment he had on him. Yes, feel my pain, hahaha. And I was living through his first time experience 😂 Soso excited the next game is more than a dream and is somewhat on the horizon.
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Post by AlleluiaElizabeth on Jun 21, 2022 1:15:56 GMT
“hyper-fixated Solas nerds” is such a great way of describing us. XD
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Post by Iddy on Jun 24, 2022 13:48:46 GMT
So... what are the odds that Solas will turn into a literal giant wolf during his boss battle?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2022 17:51:59 GMT
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Post by gervaise21 on Jun 24, 2022 20:07:11 GMT
Too short to be worth a wager.
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Post by coldwetn0se on Jun 26, 2022 4:31:16 GMT
Boss battle? You mean pillow fight and a severe hugging match!
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Post by ellanathehamster on Jul 1, 2022 19:36:10 GMT
I don't know if you saw it, but I stumbled across a very hopeful tidbit about Solavellan. So! Someone won a "heartbreak handkerchief" signed by Patrick Weekes for DA Day few years ago. And it said "Tel'dar abelas, mir vhenan; Vir suledin enansel, la; Ghilana ma var lath, la var sulahn'nehn". The best translation seems to be "Do not grieve, my heart. We will endure, and our joy also. Let our love guide you, and we will rejoice" It put a smile on my face It's encouraging- maybe there is a chance for a happy ending for those two. I really, really want it- after all those years still. Source(It is true- I saw how Patrick jokes on twitter about HOW LONG it took for post office to mail that thing)
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Post by ladyiolanthe on Jul 2, 2022 2:17:04 GMT
Yeah, there were health issues and deaths in the family and various other things that sort of sucker-punched the Weekes household for a bit, is my understanding. The "Heartbreak Handkerchiefs" were an item offered for the 2020 Dragon Age Day, so it was a little over a year before people who donated to the NAACP Legal Defense Fund (our DA Day 2020 charity) for the "Heartbreak Handkerchiefs" and the "Editor's Essentials" that Karin donated finally received their items.
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Post by Iddy on Jul 5, 2022 22:27:36 GMT
Do you guys agree with the assertion that the romance between Solas and Lavellan feels like a professor dating a student?
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Post by ladyiolanthe on Jul 6, 2022 0:11:17 GMT
Do you guys agree with the assertion that the romance between Solas and Lavellan feels like a professor dating a student? No. I know that a lot of people write Solavellan professor/student AU fanfic and I guess I understand where they're coming from, but I did not get that vibe from the relationship as presented in the game, myself. Certainly Lavellan asks Solas a lot of questions, which he's happy to answer. However, she comes across to me as far more mature and confident than I would normally associate with a professor/student dynamic. That balcony scene for example - to me her body language screams "I am your equal," and maybe even "I am your superior," which, technically, is true as far as she knows at that point, because she is the Inquisitor and he serves the Inquisition. Even before that scene, the power dynamic is all wrong for Solas as "professor" and Lavellan as "student" because she is the one who initiates the relationship, not him. Finally, by his own words in Trespasser, by that point, he has learned a lot from her over the course of their relationship.
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Post by xerrai on Jul 6, 2022 1:46:07 GMT
Do you guys agree with the assertion that the romance between Solas and Lavellan feels like a professor dating a student? No. I know that a lot of people write Solavellan professor/student AU fanfic and I guess I understand where they're coming from, but I did not get that vibe from the relationship as presented in the game, myself. Certainly Lavellan asks Solas a lot of questions, which he's happy to answer. However, she comes across to me as far more mature and confident than I would normally associate with a professor/student dynamic. That balcony scene for example - to me her body language screams "I am your equal," and maybe even "I am your superior," which, technically, is true as far as she knows at that point, because she is the Inquisitor and he serves the Inquisition. Even before that scene, the power dynamic is all wrong for Solas as "professor" and Lavellan as "student" because she is the one who initiates the relationship, not him. Finally, by his own words in Trespasser, by that point, he has learned a lot from her over the course of their relationship. I think it was the whole "da'len" and "ha'hren" thing that set that professor/student idea off. It was one of the early conversations in Haven. I don't think the implications were that severe given the context of that conversation in the game, but I can see why people would look at it and think that they were clearly defining the other's 'roles' (especially in retrospect given Solas's ancient-ness).
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Post by Elessara on Jul 6, 2022 2:22:15 GMT
No. I know that a lot of people write Solavellan professor/student AU fanfic and I guess I understand where they're coming from, but I did not get that vibe from the relationship as presented in the game, myself. Certainly Lavellan asks Solas a lot of questions, which he's happy to answer. However, she comes across to me as far more mature and confident than I would normally associate with a professor/student dynamic. That balcony scene for example - to me her body language screams "I am your equal," and maybe even "I am your superior," which, technically, is true as far as she knows at that point, because she is the Inquisitor and he serves the Inquisition. Even before that scene, the power dynamic is all wrong for Solas as "professor" and Lavellan as "student" because she is the one who initiates the relationship, not him. Finally, by his own words in Trespasser, by that point, he has learned a lot from her over the course of their relationship. I think it was the whole "da'len" and "ha'hren" thing that set that professor/student idea off. It was one of the early conversations in Haven. I don't think the implications were that severe given the context of that conversation in the game, but I can see why people would look at it and think that they were clearly defining the other's 'roles' (especially in retrospect given Solas's ancient-ness). Thinking about it a bit, I think during that conversation branch those terms are used more to show a kind of respect? She's showing she respects his experience by calling him ha'hren (and that she doesn't think of him as just a "flat ear") and he's showing he respects her for trying to reach out and learn. As far as I recall, they never use those terms again to refer to each other so it's really not like they fell into older teacher/young student roles.
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Post by ladyiolanthe on Jul 6, 2022 2:53:03 GMT
I think it was the whole "da'len" and "ha'hren" thing that set that professor/student idea off. It was one of the early conversations in Haven. I don't think the implications were that severe given the context of that conversation in the game, but I can see why people would look at it and think that they were clearly defining the other's 'roles' (especially in retrospect given Solas's ancient-ness). Thinking about it a bit, I think during that conversation branch those terms are used more to show a kind of respect? She's showing she respects his experience by calling him ha'hren (and that she doesn't think of him as just a "flat ear") and he's showing he respects her for trying to reach out and learn. As far as I recall, they never use those terms again to refer to each other so it's really not like they fell into older teacher/young student roles. That was my read on that discussion between them, as well. And you're correct, they never refer to one another using those terms again. Solas does use da'len at least one other time, but it's directed at Mihris, not Lavellan.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 6, 2022 7:58:52 GMT
Do you guys agree with the assertion that the romance between Solas and Lavellan feels like a professor dating a student? I think it was the whole "da'len" and "ha'hren" thing that set that professor/student idea off. I think during that conversation branch those terms are used more to show a kind of respect? That was my read on that discussion between them, as well. I saw it in that way too. As a Dalish, Lavellan would have been taught to use such a term as a sign of respect for another that they regard as having greater wisdom and this would be reciprocated with an acknowledgement that you wish to learn. Whilst you would generally think that the teacher would be older than yourself, this does not necessarily have to be the case. There is such a thing as a mature student who can actually be older than their teacher. Solas claims his knowledge, at least where Lavellan is concerned, is based off his interaction with spirits of the Fade rather than greater life experience generally, even though we now know that was the case. The Dalish usually avoid anything to do with spirits so, if his assertions about the Fade didn't put her off immediately, she would naturally regard him as her "elder" in such matters. It certainly didn't come across to me that there were any of the power dynamics in play such as could be attributed to a professor/student relationship, although I suppose it would be possible to infer this, particularly if this exchange of titles only occurs if you have been pursuing one with him. I can't remember but does he ever refer to a male Lavellan or female Lavellan who does not flirt with him in such a way?
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Post by midnight tea on Jul 6, 2022 14:51:10 GMT
I remember we've had this conversation before, and since I have nothing new to add, I'm just going to reiterate:
To me, it seemed it was more a matter of Lavellan recognizing Solas as someone with knowledge/experience and willing to learn, while Solas agreed to share that knowledge with them. I don't think it necessarily has anything to do with age or thinking less of them.
Anyway, we do know from Trespasser that Solas's desire is to share the knowledge he possesses with people and Lavellan may be one of few in recent memory that was curious, respectful, and willing to listen.
So I think Solas may have been a bit less prickly about the Dalish or, well, anyone really, if more people were just willing to listen and learn - if not from himself then from the Fade. He's pretty vocal about the Fade being open to anyone with smarts and will to explore it via dreams and has oftentimes expressed frustration - not with people being one or another thing, but being incurious, stuck in their ways, afraid to act, or complacent. I still maintain that a lot of his bitterness stems from not being heeded or not meeting many who'd be willing to listen to him, rather than 'notelfiness', especially how quickly he can warm up to Inquisitor of any race who is kind to him and curious about what he has to say.
IMO Lavellan being respectful and Solas willing to share his knowledge seems to be the first significant chip in his defensive walls.
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Post by Elessara on Jul 6, 2022 21:28:13 GMT
I remember we've had this conversation before, and since I have nothing new to add, I'm just going to reiterate: To me, it seemed it was more a matter of Lavellan recognizing Solas as someone with knowledge/experience and willing to learn, while Solas agreed to share that knowledge with them. I don't think it necessarily has anything to do with age or thinking less of them. Anyway, we do know from Trespasser that Solas's desire is to share the knowledge he possesses with people and Lavellan may be one of few in recent memory that was curious, respectful, and willing to listen. So I think Solas may have been a bit less prickly about the Dalish or, well, anyone really, if more people were just willing to listen and learn - if not from himself then from the Fade. He's pretty vocal about the Fade being open to anyone with smarts and will to explore it via dreams and has oftentimes expressed frustration - not with people being one or another thing, but being incurious, stuck in their ways, afraid to act, or complacent. I still maintain that a lot of his bitterness stems from not being heeded or not meeting many who'd be willing to listen to him, rather than 'notelfiness', especially how quickly he can warm up to Inquisitor of any race who is kind to him and curious about what he has to say. IMO Lavellan being respectful and Solas willing to share his knowledge seems to be the first significant chip in his defensive walls. Sadly there is nothing really new to talk about. I wish there was. ><
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Post by midnight tea on Jul 6, 2022 22:25:56 GMT
Sadly there is nothing really new to talk about. I wish there was. >< Admittedly I'm kinda torn. I'm busy with something else, so while I'm still regularly peeking into the forums, I know I'd immediately lose the momentum I have working on stuff that I'm busy with to resume discussions and analyzing whatever bone they'd throw at us from every angle xD;
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Post by midnight tea on Jul 6, 2022 23:07:52 GMT
...But to not leave the thread on old me complaining... I've just put "solas dragon age neon dread wolf" into one of the lastest Internet fad - craiyon... the results are quite amusing Look at those! My favorite is definitely the emo Solas wolfboy on the bottom right pic. I headcanon that most of those are from Solas figuring out and refining his fursona in his youth, or bungling the spell and ending with wolf ears or wolf head (and probably a tail). Another batch: Hilariously, the AI generator kinda nails Solas's mural art style...
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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 7, 2022 8:05:53 GMT
What I still find curious about Solas is the contrast with how he presented himself to his followers in ancient times, when it is clear that he is presenting in a costume/mask to give them a visual reference and also perhaps to conceal his true identity from them, with his self portrait and tarot card where the Fen'Harel persona is definitely something separate from his true self and as he admits to us has somewhat taken over from it. It is telling that what is encountered in the Fade is the Dread Wolf, not the masked elf or even simply an elf. This is why I wonder if Rasaan's search for his true name is going to feature as a major plot point in the story going forward. We know that a romanced Lavellan came close to unmasking him, hence the white wolf tarot card, but he opted out of telling her the truth at the last moment because of his desire to remain true to his original purpose (out of pride may be?). However, his actions in the past and present are those of Fen'Harel and that aspect is growing stronger once again at the expense of the elf he once was and possibly could be again. Is the reason he is always shown as a wolf in the ancient statues, even those with Mythal, because he originally became the "Wolf" on entering her service and always went masked? So even she may not be aware of his true identity. Then when he started working against the Evanuris, his title changed from the "Wolf" to the "Dread Wolf". It is also curious that in Tevinter Nights the Executor refers to him as "the Wolf" rather than the Dread Wolf or Fen'Harel. I also refer back to an idea I put forward previously that the Arcane Warriors, that Solas says were the bodyguards of the nobility, may originally have been known as wolves, which is where the later Emerald Knights got the idea of having literal wolf companions, having perhaps misunderstood references to them in ancient texts. Could Solas have been the leader of the Arcane Warriors? Hence him being " the Wolf" and then later seen as a traitor for having betrayed his order. He does say that no one doubted their honour in ancient times.
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Post by Iddy on Jul 7, 2022 15:21:00 GMT
In Trespasser, Solas only describes it as a name. A title. Nothing so grand and complicated as an alter ego or something along those lines.
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Post by midnight tea on Jul 7, 2022 15:22:48 GMT
What I still find curious about Solas is the contrast with how he presented himself to his followers in ancient times, when it is clear that he is presenting in a costume/mask to give them a visual reference and also perhaps to conceal his true identity from them, with his self portrait and tarot card where the Fen'Harel persona is definitely something separate from his true self and as he admits to us has somewhat taken over from it. It is telling that what is encountered in the Fade is the Dread Wolf, not the masked elf or even simply an elf. This is why I wonder if Rasaan's search for his true name is going to feature as a major plot point in the story going forward. We know that a romanced Lavellan came close to unmasking him, hence the white wolf tarot card, but he opted out of telling her the truth at the last moment because of his desire to remain true to his original purpose (out of pride may be?). However, his actions in the past and present are those of Fen'Harel and that aspect is growing stronger once again at the expense of the elf he once was and possibly could be again. Is the reason he is always shown as a wolf in the ancient statues, even those with Mythal, because he originally became the "Wolf" on entering her service and always went masked? So even she may not be aware of his true identity. Then when he started working against the Evanuris, his title changed from the "Wolf" to the "Dread Wolf". It is also curious that in Tevinter Nights the Executor refers to him as "the Wolf" rather than the Dread Wolf or Fen'Harel. Hmmm... I don't find it strange at all. First - the thing about paintings is that they don't have to be literal. Many portrayals across history feature, say, a noble and their chosen symbol or crest beside them, like a lion or whatever, and we still understand that the whole portrait is still of one person. We also have a thirty zillion stories (and it's a theme common in superhero comic genre) in which people have a complicated relationship with their alter-ego/masks, in which things that are technically parts of themselves are shown as separate or even having inner conversations with the originator and so on, so I'm pretty sure at least some separate portrayals across different images is meant to show us that Solas himself has a complicated relationship with his Dread Wolf persona, similar to how Inquisitor can have some issues with their 'public face'. Context of paintings is also important - the one with the elves is supposed to be instructive to his followers: Fan'Harel will perform a rite that will remove your vallaslin and release you from your shackles. The mural with the wolf is more symbolic, or perhaps it shows Solas developing his identity/mantle as the Dread Wolf, while traversing through the Fade. So one painting is instructive to the followers, the other is a personal work. Another thing - it's probably hard to remove vallaslin or heal people with wolf paws, LOL. Also, being a person - even if masked - is probably better than presenting oneself as a big wolf (that's probably done more by Solas to project strength or scare his enemies), especially of one means to welcome to tired, scared folks seeking protection and about to undergo vallaslin-removal rite, that (as we saw from the scene with Lavellan) is a gentle, intimate process. Yet another thing - the Fade may allow Solas to assume his wolfsona in ways it's impossible even in the Veilless world. Also, I am 100% certain Fade allows astral projection, aka - for the soul to traverse outside of the body and potentially assume different shapes. In fact I remember - though I have to find it - that one of the texts mentions a silver cord connecting body and soul. This sort of idea (silver cord, also known as sutratma) is heavily associated with the concept of astral projection/out-of-body experience across fantasy and magical/new age movements. What this means is, basically, that aside from stuff like shapeshifting, separating soul from the body and manifesting in different shapes (at least in the Fade) is 99.9% a thing in DA. I think this is more related to the wolf being viewed as a trustworthy companion, potentially viewed like this because of leftover positive connotations with the Dread Wolf, that still existed at later times or places. Also - don't forget that ancient human also had such a connection with the wolves: "The wolf was the most sacred of all the creatures worshipped by Alamarri. They believed it was created by the gods to be both a guide and protector for mankind. Promising young warriors were paired off with cubs, and wolves were honored as much as the greatest fighters when they fell in battle."
Also: "The wolves were our allies. In the old days, before Andraste, before the Maker, we knew this to be so. But man grew tired of the chase, the hunt, the truth of fang and steel and blood. Man put seeds in the ground, tended cattle and chickens, and built fences to keep the wolves away. Man bred hounds that would heel and sit and obey, and told himself that the hounds were just as good.
Now the darkspawn come again. They break our fences, kill our cattle and chickens, burn our crops. Our dogs cower with tails between their legs, or if they fight, they fall to the poison of darkspawn blood. We are dying, and I am shamed by my cowardice.
The ways of man and hound are not enough. I come to you, spirits of the old forest, I who built fences, I who came with fire and steel to drive you away. I come to you because fear has made my arms weak. I ask you for unforgiving rage to make them strong again.
Kill the hound in my heart, and grow strong from the meat on its bones. In its place, give me the wolf.
—Words caught in the bloody ripples of ancient water in the Fade, somehow remembered"
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Post by Iddy on Jul 7, 2022 15:27:31 GMT
I still maintain that a lot of his bitterness stems from not being heeded or not meeting many who'd be willing to listen to him, rather than 'notelfiness', especially how quickly he can warm up to Inquisitor of any race who is kind to him and curious about what he has to say. IMO Lavellan being respectful and Solas willing to share his knowledge seems to be the first significant chip in his defensive walls.
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