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Post by Ondine on Sept 2, 2016 12:27:03 GMT
I would disagree. I think WEAWH was a terrible way of introducing newcomers to previous arcs. Most players had no idea Celene had murdered Bria's parents and burned an alienage, and game made several very poor attempts at making the Bria choice 'grey' which contridicted her from the book (if they'd really wanted to put some grey in there they should've stuck to the 'deliberatly drew out a war for her own ends' thing). Also, it may be of interest that Weekes was the one who wanted to have an option to save Thane. Yes. I was so mad at the quest. I mean there's so many stuff about Gaspard, Briala and Celene that we should've known that everytime I start the game again, I look at the advisors and be like..., I LOVE YOU BUT UR A BIT USELESS HUH.
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Post by midnight tea on Sept 2, 2016 12:37:32 GMT
If DA4 comes around and the writers go "Sorry guys, we tried our best but we can't get the Inquisitor back" that's on them for writing an ending that might as well been a flashing neon sign saying "The Inquisitor is coming back." I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt in cases like Orsino's, but here? That ending was dripping with unresolved conflict - intentionally placed unresolved conflict. If the possibility of the Inquisitor's return was in any way in question, then they should've copped out with the generic "Your fight is done" ending. Yes, it would've felt sloppy in the event that The Inquisitor does return and their fight isn't done, but it would've been FAR more excusable than putting out Trespasser and then completely changing gears. And I'm not sure how you can say that putting a personal bent on the plot with Solas will alienate newcomers when ME did the same thing all the time with the Reapers, with TIM, with the Council. BioWare's never been afraid to keep up continuity just because the people who didn't play the last games might not know about it. I'm not saying that including the personal aspects of the Solas plot will alienate new players. I'm saying having the sole protag be someone whose entire emotional arc they didn't experience firsthand will. Out of all the people who will play DA4, how many will have played Trespasser? Perhaps... but how many people didn't play first few chapters of ME? How many people didn't play Witcher games before the 3rd one - and that's with a fixed protagonist and world. How many people didn't play 2st game from rebooted Tomb Rider or first Uncharted games? If people are interested with the story, aside from referenbces and matrials provided in the game itself, they will eventually grab for other parts of it to understand in better. Most just won't care. This is not a problem with fixed protagonist - this is a problem with any game that ha branching storyline and continuity. And DA has exactly that - even more so now than it was before, given that we know that DA4 has a high chance of being 2nd part of Inquisition. You've mentioned Leliana and we already heard people complaining about their past PCs or events in past games not holding as much significance as they thought and new people confused over stuff in the story from time to time. And most players, I think, are smart enough to see that they're playing a 2nd or 3rd chapter of the game. I certainly knew that I start with 3rd Dragon Age game and there will be stuff I'll miss or won't have context for. And again - most people won't care. 50% to 80% of any Dragon Age game players proably doesn't even know main baddies' name or even knows what the heck Solas's deal is about. I mean, the very same thing you said about PC could be said about Solas - for most people his character will have NO impact, at least at first. They didn't experience Inquisition. They won't know him. They won't know what threat he poses or why inquisitors want so much to kill or redeem him (provided they will be in the story). In many respects this is actually interesting, given that one of enjoyable side-benefits of telling the story that way is seeing how differently people react or how their perspective changes depending on the amount of information they have. That's sort of what this game is built on. And at this point we know for pretty much 99.9% that Solas WILL be featured pretty heavily in new story. In all likelihood so will Inquisitor. Question is HOW. There's no reason to think that the story will simply pick up where it left - likely some time will pass. Both old and new players will have to be clued in about Inquisitor's whereabouts and there's no reason not to think that they could include all the important details when the characters take their time to reminisce about past, interact and so on. Such content could easily satisfy both sides, if it's competently done - new players will be given context and get themselves familiar with characters and old players will be happy to see that their past deeds were acknowledged and will have some time to spend with older characters.
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Post by midnight tea on Sept 2, 2016 12:45:48 GMT
(And to be honest, I got no damn clue what they were thinking when they brought Leliana back. They should've left her in Origins and made a new character - which in addition to not screwing with canon, would've also been more newbie-friendly.) Considering all the parallels that can be drawn between her and Solas and some shifty stuff going on with spirit!Leliana and suggested destiny and so on personally I am not very surprised anymore.
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Post by ladyiolanthe on Sept 2, 2016 13:31:09 GMT
Another example: DA2 and Legacy. If someone had played DA2 but not Legacy they were probably wondering why Varric and Hawke kept going on about Corypheus like they did. I am one of those someones, but I didn't wonder, because I knew through my connections to the Dragon Age fandom (ie, the Dragon Age wiki and Google are your friends) that the Legacy DLC had had an ancient magister named Corypheus as its main antagonist. I also never got Fenris in my playthrough, and I never played Mark of the Assassin or got the Sebastian DLC. Not having actually played any of the DA2 DLC, and entirely failing to have picked up one of the DA2 vanilla game companions, has had very little impact on my ability to enjoy or understand what's going on in DAI. I think it's not as big of a deal as some people may think. There is so much information available on the internet that it is very easy for anyone with the slightest bit of initiative to go look up whatever they missed out on by not playing through previous games. ETA: I realized after typing it that this is very anglocentric. There may not be such extensive resources available online for people whose ability to read English is limited. So let me correct myself: There is so much English-language information available on the internet that it is very easy for anyone who can read and write in English and has the slightest bit of initiative to go look up whatever they missed out on by not playing through previous games. Others may be SOL and then not having played previous games or DLC may be a big deal for many people. My apologies.
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Post by Ondine on Sept 2, 2016 13:52:29 GMT
I also think that bioware kinda "fixed" her reputation with Dragon Age 2 (I mean """fixed""" because I do not find DA:I that interesting, and there's lot of things in the game that I don't like and I also don't think that DA2 is such a terrible game, not even close, I actually find it very original and unique even with it's faults), got a GOTY and everyone's attention, anyway, if they wanted to actually make people interested for Dragon Age again and appeal to a larger audience they did it with Inquisition.
To sacrifice storytelling just to accomodate new players and leaving a less complex plot for the fanbase that bought/played/read about their games, did their homework, got invested etc is just... eh. I hope they don't go to that route, specially with Inquisition having a story that has so much room for deep development.
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Post by Ondine on Sept 2, 2016 13:55:48 GMT
(And to be honest, I got no damn clue what they were thinking when they brought Leliana back. They should've left her in Origins and made a new character - which in addition to not screwing with canon, would've also been more newbie-friendly.) Considering all the parallels that can be drawn between her and Solas and some shifty stuff going on with spirit!Leliana and suggested destiny and so on personally I am not very surprised anymore. I have the impression that spirit!Leliana is more a reaction for "oh, we fucked up, they remember that she can die", an excuse, and there won't be a development on this. I mean, if it was supposed to be, we could've at least some hints in the base game but no. They tried to fix a plothole with the epilogue and make it less bad and that's the end of it. I do hope I'm wrong about that tho.
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Post by rowrow on Sept 2, 2016 14:12:27 GMT
I'm not saying that including the personal aspects of the Solas plot will alienate new players. I'm saying having the sole protag be someone whose entire emotional arc they didn't experience firsthand will. Out of all the people who will play DA4, how many will have played Trespasser? Not even everybody who played DAI will have experienced Trespasser. As far as plot events and Solas' evil plans go, a new hero can get caught up with in-world infodumps and stuff - like we did with Corypheus. But the highly personal conflict can't be front and center by default the way it would be for an Inquisitor. There's just a lot of baggage there, and not only emotional. The Inquisitor's famous in Thedas and every in-game character will have an opinion on their exploits and its effect on the present world. To be forced to play a character who you're always hearing about, who did things you didn't play through would be confusing at best, irritating at worst. And this is exactly what happens in Mass Effect, but again ME was marketed as a trilogy. And even so, they've had to make consistent efforts to mitigate new player overwhelm by simply leaving out most references to past events that weren't imported from old game save states, or by merging outcomes from highly divergent past choices. Example: the Rachni return in ME3. Another example: If you didn't play the Arrival DLC, they don't bother to inform you in ME3 that Shepard blew up a Mass Relay and killed 300K batarians, which is a pretty big fucking deal. Now, they do make mention of it in my playthrough, but I was aghast at how lightly it was dealt with, and that my Shep had so little visible emotional fallout. The same goes for a romanced Thane's death. For most players, it's very moving. But Thanemancers experience Shep's interactions with him in ME3 as confusing, distant, and in my case amnesiac to the point of being bizarre. Why? Because not much additional content was added that was specific to a Thane romance. That's horrible storytelling, but it's what happens with carrying over a single protagonist who could have gone down different paths which all have to be accounted for. They committed to a three-game protag with the first ME game, so they had to deal with it, sometimes very clunkily. I think the decision to have DA's non-recurring heroes was influenced by that. I'm also not saying Bioware never follow up on big outcomes or emotional payoffs, of course not. But they have also regularly fudged continuity for game design reasons. Example: a murdered Leliana's resurrection. It's significant to a lot of players, but not the majority of them. And I believe the sole followup to that pretty extraordinary event is some text in the epilogue of a DLC. Even though Leliana is a significant character, part of her story that was personally significant to a minority of players was left out of the main game altogether. Again, the plot with Solas and the Veil is still going to be there. The personal conflict will also be there, but for some, not all. And so it probably can't be the central conflict of the story, even though it sure will be central in my headcanon. Bioware does have to stop writing for new people at some point, and they do. They have to juggle both sets of needs. I'm not going to pretend I don't want something different from them, but I'm thinking I'll be disappointed in that regard. If I'm wrong, though? I'll be much too happy to be bitter that I lost this argument I actually think Arrival is a very good example of how BioWare will barge on with a story even if you have to play the DLC to understand it. As a matter of fact, there seem to be plenty examples of them going out of their way to include references to other material - the entire Halamshiral quest might as well have been named "I hope you read Masked Empire," and Cole made numerous and blatant references to Asunder. Why wouldn't they carry that attitude on with Trespasser? Also I think you're confusing bad writing as a result of branching world states with bad writing as a result of an attempt to avoid continuity lock out. Everything with Thane, with Leliana, with the Rachni, that's not the developers trying to go easy on new comers, that's a result of them botching the choices they gave you. They didn't consider players who killed Leliana, they didn't consider players who romanced Thane (Damn you Garrus. Damn you and your popularity.) If they had given you the option to go "Nah, let someone else handle Solas," THAT would've been a red flag, and a possible example of what you mention. But you always end up in the same place with Solas, no matter what. Which is evidence for the team wanting to continue that story, not end it. I think this maybe could be a case for short-changing Solas' romance, (Which, to be honest, I'd be utterly unsurprised if that happened.) but Solas' story in general? Every Inquisitor meets and recruits him. Every Inquisitor has to at least deal with him to get through the prologue, and then again to close the Breach. Every Inquisitor gets strung along by him, every Inquisitor confronts him before the Eluvian, and every Inquisitor vows to stop him one way or another. None of that can be avoided. It's the vital difference between this and killing Leliana or romancing Thane or releasing the Rachni. There you had a choice. Here you're railroaded. All of that is evidence that the story isn't finished. (And to be honest, I got no damn clue what they were thinking when they brought Leliana back. They should've left her in Origins and made a new character - which in addition to not screwing with canon, would've also been more newbie-friendly.) Merely including references to past events isn't what we're talking about. We're talking about carrying forward an emotional throughline by continuing from the same character's POV. You know about the events from TME the book, but the Inquisitor doesn't have an emotional involvement in those events. You can absolutely play through Halamshiral without having read Masked Empire or having an emotional investment in those events. Your success and engagement in the quest isn't dependent on having read TME, only enhanced by it. But if the Inquisitor continues as main protagonist, past events would be central to the roleplaying of the character, events that new players won't be privy too. Simply alluding to events of past games in ambient dialogue and codexes won't break immersion, but being told repeatedly that 'your character did that and it had a huge impact' when you weren't around to see it would. Actually, not every Inquisitor ends up in the same place. Not every Inquisitor vows to stop Solas because not everybody who played DAI and will play DA4 has played Trespasser. For many, the story ended with DAI. No personal confrontation, no learning about his history with the Evanuris or that he spied on you, no watching him take your arm, no decision to disband the Inquisition. Those players may get to account for those choices in the Keep, but their story will still have ended on a different emotional note. Solas and the Veil will be always be in play in DA4, but there will be three groups of players who will be starting in three different places in their relationship with Solas: those who played Trespasser, those who played DAI only, and those who played neither. This is why I brought up Arrival. Emotionally, it's significant, but it's still a DLC, and so we (imo) never get to see Shepard wrestling with the emotional aftermath of that in ME3, because it wouldn't make sense for those who never played it. As for the other examples I gave, (Thane, Leliana, Rachni), I didn't mean them as examples of choices made to spare new players, I meant them as examples of deliberate decisions being made to put less resources towards exclusive content that only a minority of players would see. As sore as I am over what happened with Thane, I don't really buy that they just 'forgot' about him (those are a dev's words, actually). I find it more likely they wanted to do more for him, but couldn't justify the time and cost when there were so many other plots and subplots resolutions that needed to get made. Writing a better ending is one thing, building it is another.
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Post by BioFan on Sept 2, 2016 15:00:49 GMT
2017: Mass Effect: Andromeda 2018: New IP (sense it's been in development for years already, I figure it'll be out first) 2019: DA4 (maybe, honestly just an educated guess) That'd give it about 4 years of development time sense Trespasser ended. tbh i'm willing to wait until 2019 if that means we can play our inquisitor again... also, it can only add more possibilities regarding crucial choices, no? and the last time they took additional time for development (DA3 was pushed back a year), they gave us the solas romance, so ^^ You won't be playing as the inquisitor again.
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Post by Amburu on Sept 2, 2016 15:06:46 GMT
You won't be playing as the inquisitor again. Aw come on we don't know anything on the game yet, let's keep our minds open to every possibility !
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Post by illyria on Sept 2, 2016 15:27:25 GMT
All this talk about what DAI could've done better:
I'm actually writing a thing that redoes DAI assuming the game had unlimted dev time and budget and a lot of things people have mentioned are either things I've included or am going to include. If people are interested in the link then I don't mind sharing it.
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Post by rowrow on Sept 2, 2016 15:28:58 GMT
I'm not saying that including the personal aspects of the Solas plot will alienate new players. I'm saying having the sole protag be someone whose entire emotional arc they didn't experience firsthand will. Out of all the people who will play DA4, how many will have played Trespasser? Perhaps... but how many people didn't play first few chapters of ME? How many people didn't play Witcher games before the 3rd one - and that's with a fixed protagonist and world. How many people didn't play 2st game from rebooted Tomb Rider or first Uncharted games? If people are interested with the story, aside from referenbces and matrials provided in the game itself, they will eventually grab for other parts of it to understand in better. Most just won't care. And I would say that in those cases, effort still had to be made not to burden new players with too much past baggage. If you didn't play it, it won't be in your face. It maybe there in the form of codexes or whatnot for those who want to dive deep, but new players don't have to carry it around with them or play constant catch-up in order to enjoy the game. (This is only a guess with Witcher as I've not played the series.) And yes, they could the same with DA4 as they did with Shepard. But my impression has been that they've been trying to avoid precisely that with the DA series. This is not a problem with fixed protagonist - this is a problem with any game that ha branching storyline and continuity. And DA has exactly that - even more so now than it was before, given that we know that DA4 has a high chance of being 2nd part of Inquisition. You've mentioned Leliana and we already heard people complaining about their past PCs or events in past games not holding as much significance as they thought and new people confused over stuff in the story from time to time. I know it's a problem with branching storylines and continuity. And it's compounded by having a fixed protagonist, and imported save states. We've heard in developer panels etc how overwhelming all of that was to deal with in ME, especially by the time they got to the third game. Again, I think the decision to try and have each DA game have new heroes was partly informed by that. And most players, I think, are smart enough to see that they're playing a 2nd or 3rd chapter of the game. I certainly knew that I start with 3rd Dragon Age game and there will be stuff I'll miss or won't have context for. And again - most people won't care. 50% to 80% of any Dragon Age game players proably doesn't even know main baddies' name or even knows what the heck Solas's deal is about. Players are also smart enough to know that there's a good way and bad way to bring new members of the audience into an existing story. I personally like a really deep mythos that I sometimes have to do a bit of back-digging to fully enjoy, but Bioware games aren't written for just that kind of people. Think of all the sequel movies that get made nowadays. People still expect to be able to enjoy each of them on their own. And if it's a game, they won't care ... only as long as it doesn't interfere with their enjoyment of the new story. Even if the Inquisitor is the new protagonist, they will have to 'blank slate' the character to some degree for new players, or just keep the narrative moving forward as much as possible. At least that's how I think Bioware will want to do it. I mean, the very same thing you said about PC could be said about Solas - for most people his character will have NO impact, at least at first. They didn't experience Inquisition. They won't know him. They won't know what threat he poses or why inquisitors want so much to kill or redeem him (provided they will be in the story). In many respects this is actually interesting, given that one of enjoyable side-benefits of telling the story that way is seeing how differently people react or how their perspective changes depending on the amount of information they have. That's sort of what this game is built on. Yes, but if Solas is any good at his job (...) new players will likely be feeling the threat early in the game anyway, just as we did in DAI. New players won't know who Solas is, but they'll still need a reason to keep playing, especially in the beginning. So I doubt that Bioware is going to let the protagonist's relationship with Solas drive the early story. And at this point we know for pretty much 99.9% that Solas WILL be featured pretty heavily in new story. In all likelihood so will Inquisitor. Question is HOW. There's no reason to think that the story will simply pick up where it left - likely some time will pass. Both old and new players will have to be clued in about Inquisitor's whereabouts and there's no reason not to think that they could include all the important details when the characters take their time to reminisce about past, interact and so on. Such content could easily satisfy both sides, if it's competently done - new players will be given context and get themselves familiar with characters and old players will be happy to see that their past deeds were acknowledged and will have some time to spend with older characters. I suppose a time skip could do all that, yes. That would be interesting.
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Post by ellawyn on Sept 2, 2016 15:33:29 GMT
(And to be honest, I got no damn clue what they were thinking when they brought Leliana back. They should've left her in Origins and made a new character - which in addition to not screwing with canon, would've also been more newbie-friendly.) Considering all the parallels that can be drawn between her and Solas and some shifty stuff going on with spirit!Leliana and suggested destiny and so on personally I am not very surprised anymore. I'm not surprised, just extremely unimpressed. That lyrium ghost thing has got to be one of the biggest cop-outs in the entire series. They might as well have said she survived because a Spirit of Retcon saved her. I actually think Arrival is a very good example of how BioWare will barge on with a story even if you have to play the DLC to understand it. As a matter of fact, there seem to be plenty examples of them going out of their way to include references to other material - the entire Halamshiral quest might as well have been named "I hope you read Masked Empire," and Cole made numerous and blatant references to Asunder. Why wouldn't they carry that attitude on with Trespasser? Also I think you're confusing bad writing as a result of branching world states with bad writing as a result of an attempt to avoid continuity lock out. Everything with Thane, with Leliana, with the Rachni, that's not the developers trying to go easy on new comers, that's a result of them botching the choices they gave you. They didn't consider players who killed Leliana, they didn't consider players who romanced Thane (Damn you Garrus. Damn you and your popularity.) If they had given you the option to go "Nah, let someone else handle Solas," THAT would've been a red flag, and a possible example of what you mention. But you always end up in the same place with Solas, no matter what. Which is evidence for the team wanting to continue that story, not end it. I think this maybe could be a case for short-changing Solas' romance, (Which, to be honest, I'd be utterly unsurprised if that happened.) but Solas' story in general? Every Inquisitor meets and recruits him. Every Inquisitor has to at least deal with him to get through the prologue, and then again to close the Breach. Every Inquisitor gets strung along by him, every Inquisitor confronts him before the Eluvian, and every Inquisitor vows to stop him one way or another. None of that can be avoided. It's the vital difference between this and killing Leliana or romancing Thane or releasing the Rachni. There you had a choice. Here you're railroaded. All of that is evidence that the story isn't finished. (And to be honest, I got no damn clue what they were thinking when they brought Leliana back. They should've left her in Origins and made a new character - which in addition to not screwing with canon, would've also been more newbie-friendly.) Merely including references to past events isn't what we're talking about. We're talking about carrying forward an emotional throughline by continuing from the same character's POV. You know about the events from TME the book, but the Inquisitor doesn't have an emotional involvement in those events. You can absolutely play through Halamshiral without having read Masked Empire or having an emotional investment in those events. Your success and engagement in the quest isn't dependent on having read TME, only enhanced by it. But if the Inquisitor continues as main protagonist, past events would be central to the roleplaying of the character, events that new players won't be privy too. Simply alluding to events of past games in ambient dialogue and codexes won't break immersion, but being told repeatedly that 'your character did that and it had a huge impact' when you weren't around to see it would. Actually, not every Inquisitor ends up in the same place. Not every Inquisitor vows to stop Solas because not everybody who played DAI and will play DA4 has played Trespasser. For many, the story ended with DAI. No personal confrontation, no learning about his history with the Evanuris or that he spied on you, no watching him take your arm, no decision to disband the Inquisition. Those players may get to account for those choices in the Keep, but their story will still have ended on a different emotional note. Solas and the Veil will be always be in play in DA4, but there will be three groups of players who will be starting in three different places in their relationship with Solas: those who played Trespasser, those who played DAI only, and those who played neither. This is why I brought up Arrival. Emotionally, it's significant, but it's still a DLC, and so we (imo) never get to see Shepard wrestling with the emotional aftermath of that in ME3, because it wouldn't make sense for those who never played it. As for the other examples I gave, (Thane, Leliana, Rachni), I didn't mean them as examples of choices made to spare new players, I meant them as examples of deliberate decisions being made to put less resources towards exclusive content that only a minority of players would see. As sore as I am over what happened with Thane, I don't really buy that they just 'forgot' about him (those are a dev's words, actually). I find it more likely they wanted to do more for him, but couldn't justify the time and cost when there were so many other plots and subplots resolutions that needed to get made. Writing a better ending is one thing, building it is another. Hawke releases Corypheus whether you've played Legacy or not. The Inquisitor goes through Trespasser whether you played it or DAI or not. Just because the player stopped playing doesn't mean the story ended. The player may be in a variety of different states, but the Inquisitor is always in the same one. That's what's important - because the player can be in a lot more states than three. Maybe they played all of DAI and Trespasser but don't give a damn about Solas. Maybe they played none but are really interested in this personal narrative. Maybe they stopped halfway through Origins. You can't write a story based on where the player/reader is. You'd have to be clairvoyant, and able to write a multitude of versions for readers that end up with different opinions - which is why it's more important to look at where the characters are. That's what the writers are writing for. Because this isn't content that only a minority of players will have seen. This is content everyone will have seen if they have the invested level in the story - different from his romance, which yes, probably only a very small minority of players will have looked at. This would be less like skimping on a subplot and more like handing someone a novel and then cutting out the last ten chapters.
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Post by illyria on Sept 2, 2016 15:35:11 GMT
I'm a bit worried that if we go the new protag route we'll end up in a situation like we had in DAI with its cameoes. The Alistair or Hawke choice is a hard one for most players to make because its choosing between the previous character and one of the original party members, but the character has no reason to care at all.
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Post by rowrow on Sept 2, 2016 16:03:50 GMT
Hawke releases Corypheus whether you've played Legacy or not. The Inquisitor goes through Trespasser whether you played it or DAI or not. Just because the player stopped playing doesn't mean the story ended. The player may be in a variety of different states, but the Inquisitor is always in the same one. That's what's important - because the player can be in a lot more states than three. Maybe they played all of DAI and Trespasser but don't give a damn about Solas. Maybe they played none but are really interested in this personal narrative. Maybe they stopped halfway through Origins. You can't write a story based on where the player/reader is. You'd have to be clairvoyant, and able to write a multitude of versions for readers that end up with different opinions - which is why it's more important to look at where the characters are. That's what the writers are writing for. The Inquisitor isn't always in the same state, unless you're referring to the state of merely existing and having known Solas. And when the player stops playing, the story doesn't stop, but sometimes bits of the story get left out for those players. That is how Bioware has done it. The story, in this case, isn't just the Inquisitor's story. Game writers regularly do take into account where different players are in their journey. And yes, that sometimes means they end up writing many different versions of the same event. So they're going to want to minimize that as much as possible, whether it's by clearing the slate occasionally, merging formerly divergent timelines, or just conveniently leaving out explanations. Those aren't ways of ignoring the audience (though it sometimes feels like it) and asserting the sanctity of the story, they're ways of giving as many people as possible their individual stories while still keeping it all in one game. These are necessary considerations. If you write a bad novel, you're not out the same amount of money you would be with a triple-A game that flops. Because this isn't content that only a minority of players will have seen. This is content everyone will have seen if they have the invested level in the story - different from his romance, which yes, probably only a very small minority of players will have looked at. This would be less like skimping on a subplot and more like handing someone a novel and then cutting out the last ten chapters. When I refer to content that not everyone has seen, I'm talking about Trespasser. What are you referring to?
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Post by BioFan on Sept 2, 2016 16:05:34 GMT
You won't be playing as the inquisitor again. Aw come on we don't know anything on the game yet, let's keep our minds open to every possibility ! They want to do a different protagonist with each DA game, that's been the plan from the beginning. Pretty sure it was confirmed over twitter in addition to that con presentation by Patrick Weekes and John Epler about Trespasser. I'd love to see my inquisitor again too, but we'll just have to hope for a cameo :/
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Post by AlleluiaElizabeth on Sept 2, 2016 16:32:04 GMT
tbh i'm willing to wait until 2019 if that means we can play our inquisitor again... also, it can only add more possibilities regarding crucial choices, no? and the last time they took additional time for development (DA3 was pushed back a year), they gave us the solas romance, so ^^ You won't be playing as the inquisitor again. Wow. Kay. That sounded oddly curt and pessimistic for you, Biofan. Got some inside source on this or something? EDIT: Nvm, you seem to have listed them. I wouldn't call any tweet we've seen from them to have been "confirmed", but we'll just agree to disagree, I guess. Hawke releases Corypheus whether you've played Legacy or not. The Inquisitor goes through Trespasser whether you played it or DAI or not. Just because the player stopped playing doesn't mean the story ended. The player may be in a variety of different states, but the Inquisitor is always in the same one. That's what's important - because the player can be in a lot more states than three. Maybe they played all of DAI and Trespasser but don't give a damn about Solas. Maybe they played none but are really interested in this personal narrative. Maybe they stopped halfway through Origins. You can't write a story based on where the player/reader is. You'd have to be clairvoyant, and able to write a multitude of versions for readers that end up with different opinions - which is why it's more important to look at where the characters are. That's what the writers are writing for. The Inquisitor isn't always in the same state, unless you're referring to the state of merely existing and having known Solas. And when the player stops playing, the story doesn't stop, but sometimes bits of the story get left out for those players. That is how Bioware has done it. The story, in this case, isn't just the Inquisitor's story. Most DA2 players and DAI players likely didn't play Legacy, yet Hawke still released Cory and he was still the antagonist in DAI and it was still treated as if Hawke and Varric knew who he was and had emotional investment in it. Hawke was in the same place storywise regardless of what DLC the player played. It will be the same for the Inquisitor and Trespasser, whether the player played the DLC themselves or not. This is not Arrival where you can sweep the events under the rug b/c they have no ultimate impact in the next story. Its also not Sebastian in DA2, where you can just choose not to have recruited him and therefore your Hawke never met him. The Inquisitor/Trespasser situation much more resembles the Hawke/Legacy one. No matter what, the Inquisitor is no longer in charge of the Inquisition and s/he is plotting in the basement at Haven with Leliana/Cassandra/Harding on how to deal with Solas.
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Post by BioFan on Sept 2, 2016 17:10:49 GMT
You won't be playing as the inquisitor again. Wow. Kay. That sounded oddly curt and pessimistic for you, Biofan. Got some inside source on this or something? EDIT: Nvm, you seem to have listed them. I wouldn't call any tweet we've seen from them to have been "confirmed", but we'll just agree to disagree, I guess. The Inquisitor isn't always in the same state, unless you're referring to the state of merely existing and having known Solas. And when the player stops playing, the story doesn't stop, but sometimes bits of the story get left out for those players. That is how Bioware has done it. The story, in this case, isn't just the Inquisitor's story. Most DA2 players and DAI players likely didn't play Legacy, yet Hawke still released Cory and he was still the antagonist in DAI and it was still treated as if Hawke and Varric knew who he was and had emotional investment in it. Hawke was in the same place storywise regardless of what DLC the player played. It will be the same for the Inquisitor and Trespasser, whether the player played the DLC themselves or not. This is not Arrival where you can sweep the events under the rug b/c they have no ultimate impact in the next story. Its also not Sebastian in DA2, where you can just choose not to have recruited him and therefore your Hawke never met him. The Inquisitor/Trespasser situation much more resembles the Hawke/Legacy one. No matter what, the Inquisitor is no longer in charge of the Inquisition and s/he is plotting in the basement at Haven with Leliana/Cassandra/Harding on how to deal with Solas. Sorry, I've had a long week so I'm super tired, but it is confirmed.
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Post by ellawyn on Sept 2, 2016 17:32:37 GMT
The Inquisitor isn't always in the same state, unless you're referring to the state of merely existing and having known Solas. And when the player stops playing, the story doesn't stop, but sometimes bits of the story get left out for those players. That is how Bioware has done it. The story, in this case, isn't just the Inquisitor's story. Game writers regularly do take into account where different players are in their journey. And yes, that sometimes means they end up writing many different versions of the same event. So they're going to want to minimize that as much as possible, whether it's by clearing the slate occasionally, merging formerly divergent timelines, or just conveniently leaving out explanations. Those aren't ways of ignoring the audience (though it sometimes feels like it) and asserting the sanctity of the story, they're ways of giving as many people as possible their individual stories while still keeping it all in one game. These are necessary considerations. If you write a bad novel, you're not out the same amount of money you would be with a triple-A game that flops. But that tendency is exactly what I am referring to! Game writers will try to minimize possible world states as much as they can - it only makes sense, because linear stories are easier to write, less costly to make, and frankly, probably better written in the long run. Thus they will make things as linear as they can manage without upsetting the player. And that's why the interaction between Solas and the Inquisitor ends as it does. Nearly all other companions can end up in a variety of outcomes. Cullen can be a beggar or a happy husband. Blackwall can be executed or a proud Warden. Bull can be a traitor or a mercenary. All of them can end up in wildly different states, which implies that the story is done with them - the writers do not bother making their stories linear, because their stories are over. But then, look at Dorian, who always returns to Tevinter. And then look at Solas, who always declares his intentions to tear down the Veil. And look at the Inquisitor, who always declares their intentions to stop him. All of those are examples of precisely what you're referring to - the writers slimming down the story to a single world state, which they can then write off of. And it's why it seems unlikely to me that this is the last we'll see of the Inquisitor. Because this isn't content that only a minority of players will have seen. This is content everyone will have seen if they have the invested level in the story - different from his romance, which yes, probably only a very small minority of players will have looked at. This would be less like skimping on a subplot and more like handing someone a novel and then cutting out the last ten chapters. When I refer to content that not everyone has seen, I'm talking about Trespasser. What are you referring to? I'm referring to optional content. Romances, side-quests, main quests with branching choices. Things you can play the game from start screen to credits without actually seeing. Trespasser is not one of those things. If you bought the product and play it to completion, then you have to go through all of Trespasser's plot with Solas. There's no "Screw Thedas I'm going to Disney World" option. It forces you to see Solas' content, making it different from the examples you provided. Wow. Kay. That sounded oddly curt and pessimistic for you, Biofan. Got some inside source on this or something? EDIT: Nvm, you seem to have listed them. I wouldn't call any tweet we've seen from them to have been "confirmed", but we'll just agree to disagree, I guess. Most DA2 players and DAI players likely didn't play Legacy, yet Hawke still released Cory and he was still the antagonist in DAI and it was still treated as if Hawke and Varric knew who he was and had emotional investment in it. Hawke was in the same place storywise regardless of what DLC the player played. It will be the same for the Inquisitor and Trespasser, whether the player played the DLC themselves or not. This is not Arrival where you can sweep the events under the rug b/c they have no ultimate impact in the next story. Its also not Sebastian in DA2, where you can just choose not to have recruited him and therefore your Hawke never met him. The Inquisitor/Trespasser situation much more resembles the Hawke/Legacy one. No matter what, the Inquisitor is no longer in charge of the Inquisition and s/he is plotting in the basement at Haven with Leliana/Cassandra/Harding on how to deal with Solas. And this brings me back to my original position, which is that if the writers seriously looked at Trespasser and went "Hmm yes this conclusively ties off the protagonist" then they're unspeakably incompetent. Nothing about Trespasser was conclusive.
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Post by forgetmenot on Sept 2, 2016 17:44:02 GMT
I want my inky back. I got very attached to her, she was awesome. Plus i think itd add much more weight to the story with its already emotional entanglements existing whether that be love or hate. Solas was a bit like Marmite i used to hate him but then stupidly decided to romance him which i wish id just left the fuck alone because its still feckin hurting! (Only finished this particular play through a few days ago). A new character wouldn't have the complications, they wouldn't have gotten to know him (again either love or hate) so why would they even be inclined to listen if they were told by our inky "please be kind to him, he's not really evil even though he's trying to burn our world and all who inhabit it alive, he's just confused and sad and needs a hug". They'd think we were crazy! Plus Solas isn't going to listen to some nobody who just turned up on the scene saying "don't do it!" when his love for lavellan doesn't even change his mind! I just don't see how it would work as a story... But bioware will do what they'll do and even if inky isn't back i shall just enjoy it for what is and at least we'll get some sort of conclusion to his story. Sorry had a few wines whilst getting ready to go out so apologies if i seem ranty haha much love to all you fellow solavellans! Im starting to accept that this is pain is just going to follow me forever... Oh well, wine will help!
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Post by lilyenachaos on Sept 2, 2016 18:10:15 GMT
And this brings me back to my original position, which is that if the writers seriously looked at Trespasser and went "Hmm yes this conclusively ties off the protagonist" then they're unspeakably incompetent. Nothing about Trespasser was conclusive. I agree, if they think that that ending was conclusive they're nuts. I mean, I LIKED the ending, but I don't feel like things are over for my quizzy regarding Solas, whether friend or romance. Plus I'll be incredibly salty if they conclude the Solas story arc with absolutely no closure for my Lavellan.
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Post by illyria on Sept 2, 2016 18:32:17 GMT
Well, since I got a few likes I'm guessing that people do want to see the DAI thing. It updates whenever I feel like it.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2016 18:41:13 GMT
Wow. Kay. That sounded oddly curt and pessimistic for you, Biofan. Got some inside source on this or something? EDIT: Nvm, you seem to have listed them. I wouldn't call any tweet we've seen from them to have been "confirmed", but we'll just agree to disagree, I guess. Most DA2 players and DAI players likely didn't play Legacy, yet Hawke still released Cory and he was still the antagonist in DAI and it was still treated as if Hawke and Varric knew who he was and had emotional investment in it. Hawke was in the same place storywise regardless of what DLC the player played. It will be the same for the Inquisitor and Trespasser, whether the player played the DLC themselves or not. This is not Arrival where you can sweep the events under the rug b/c they have no ultimate impact in the next story. Its also not Sebastian in DA2, where you can just choose not to have recruited him and therefore your Hawke never met him. The Inquisitor/Trespasser situation much more resembles the Hawke/Legacy one. No matter what, the Inquisitor is no longer in charge of the Inquisition and s/he is plotting in the basement at Haven with Leliana/Cassandra/Harding on how to deal with Solas. Sorry, I've had a long week so I'm super tired, but it is confirmed. That tweet was in regards to the Hero of Ferelden. Even if they say there is a new protagonist for the game, they have not ruled out dual-protagonists as an avenue to explore, though I cannot for the life of me find the link to that quote. Completely removing the Inquisitor from the story they built up, would be a massive mistake if they're calling the games "Chapters", and ending their epilogue/prologue with a character vowing to pursue another character. It's a freaking cliffhanger and deserves payoff.
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Post by Zemgus on Sept 2, 2016 18:44:05 GMT
Mike Laidlaw once said in the old BSN that: "Our goal is that new major installments in the DA games will have new protagonists and, generally, tell new stories. It's safe to assume we'll do that for "The Next Thing™", and then we'll evaluate again." (from the 'Mark Darrah on the conclusion of Dragon Age II' thread.)
I don't think it's set in stone. I wouldn't be super disappointed if Inquisitor is not the main protagonist, because even though I would love that, the chances that it would actually happen are probably slim. Still, I'm hoping that at least they don't repeat what happened with Hawke... it has been a little annoying that after the game where the character is main protagonist we lose all control over them. That doesn't feel right. They should use the Keep or something to give us more control over our old characters. Like what happened with Warden and the search for the Cure or Hawke and her journey to Weisshaupt. I don't like someone else making decision like that for my character.
If Inquisitor is not the main protagonist of DA4 then at least I hope they still have a part to play in the story, since Solas is most likely going to be the main antagonist. There's no reason why the Inquisitor wouldn't return to DA4 because what was the point of Trespasser then and giving us the decision to either kill or redeem him? I'm really really hoping for some kind of dual protagonist situation, because it's the only way I can see them succeeding in both bringing back to the Inquisitor and conclude her story + introduce a new protagonist.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2016 18:57:57 GMT
Mike Laidlaw once said in the old BSN that: "Our goal is that new major installments in the DA games will have new protagonists and, generally, tell new stories. It's safe to assume we'll do that for "The Next Thing™", and then we'll evaluate again." (from the 'Mark Darrah on the conclusion of Dragon Age II' thread.) I don't think it's set in stone. I wouldn't be super disappointed if Inquisitor is not the main protagonist, because even though I would love that, the chances that it would actually happen are probably slim. Still, I'm hoping that at least they don't repeat what happened with Hawke... it has been a little annoying that after the game where the character is main protagonist we lose all control over them. That doesn't feel right. They should use the Keep or something to give us more control over our old characters. Like what happened with Warden and the search for the Cure or Hawke and her journey to Weisshaupt. I don't like someone else making decision like that for my character. If Inquisitor is not the main protagonist of DA4 then at least I hope they still have a part to play in the story, since Solas is most likely going to be the main antagonist. There's no reason why the Inquisitor wouldn't return to DA4 because what was the point of Trespasser then and giving us the decision to either kill or redeem him? I'm really really hoping for some kind of dual protagonist situation, because it's the only way I can see them succeeding in both bringing back to the Inquisitor and conclude her story + introduce a new protagonist. Here's the link to that particular conversation: forum.bioware.com/topic/290935-mark-darrah-on-the-conclusion-of-dragon-age-ii/?p=8634951And a screenshot since the place will soon be defunct:
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Post by midnight tea on Sept 2, 2016 19:06:06 GMT
Considering all the parallels that can be drawn between her and Solas and some shifty stuff going on with spirit!Leliana and suggested destiny and so on personally I am not very surprised anymore. I'm not surprised, just extremely unimpressed. That lyrium ghost thing has got to be one of the biggest cop-outs in the entire series. They might as well have said she survived because a Spirit of Retcon saved her. For me this was an obvious Spirit of Checkov's Gun. They wouldn't have ended with spirit!Leliana if it didn't have significance to the plot. You could say that we'll see if they're going to go anywhere with it, but personally I am convinced that this is leading to something - or at the very least if it wasn't something impossible in the universe they wouldn't have done it the way they did. It is important what happened to her. It's also pretty important that it only happens to Leliana who has suffered death but did not become the Divine. It's important that whatever she became when she flew away at least implies that either Titans or something that controls lyrium is involved, which means that we haven't yet seen all the players in the game for Thedas. It's not so much a cop-out, but an interesting clue.
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