Hrungr
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More coffee...? More coffee.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem
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More coffee...? More coffee.
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Post by Hrungr on Jan 15, 2018 5:41:22 GMT
We have threads for Warrior & Mage ideas for DA4, but I don't think we've really focused on Rogues yet. And with Shadow of War & Assassin's Creed out, it's been on my mind.
Core Classes: Do you like the core class as it's structured in DA:I? How would you improve it? Would you want to have Hybrid Class options (Warrior-Rogue / Mage-Rogue)? If so, what would they look like?
Specializations: As we move to the north, any specializations you hope to see? Or hope to see back? "Blood" Rogue? Mage-Killer? Fog Warrior? Antivan Crow? Ben-Hassrath? Carta? An Ancient Elven spec?
Abilities: What were your favorites in DAI? Any from prior games you'd like to see back? Did you like the Ability Tree structure in DAI? Would you change it in some way? Any ideas you've wanted to see, or have seen in other games, that would work well in DA? Combat vs Non-Combat thoughts?
Combat: Would you prefer a more action-oriented approach or more "hands off"? How did you like the feel in DAI vs prior games? Are there games you'd like to see the Rogue take inspiration from? Speed, mobility, stealth...? Armor & Weapons? Anything new you'd like to see here?
Novas: Focus Abilities - What you do with them?
Pie-In-The-Sky: Your most outlandish ideas that you're 99% certain would never see the light o' day.
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Post by vertigomez on Jan 15, 2018 5:51:58 GMT
Rogues did alright as far as specs go in DAI - they only got one repeat spec (Assassin), and all the specializations worked well with both DW and archery, which was a refreshing change from Origins where archery really got the shaft (no pun intended).
Besides some kind of Fog Warrior spec (which could be a stealthy warrior, or a front-and-center rogue), I really want rogues to be able to wield crossbows and handaxes again. I'm so bored of daggers and bows.
And I don't know if it'd be a rogue or warrior spec, but I'd love bare-fisted combat. Utha from The Calling had her tongue cut out and knew dwarf kung fu. I NEED IT.
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Tittus
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Post by Tittus on Jan 15, 2018 6:19:55 GMT
Combat: Not only rogue is my favorite class in DA2, but DA2's rogue is my favorite class in all franchise as well. I felt like the whole battlefield was my domain and I could help every companion. If they could just copy and past its moviments in all other IPs, they should.
Abilities: I liked tempest a lot. Having the power of freeze enemies. And I'd love to throw bombs and knives, like in TW2/TW3.
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Post by vertigomez on Jan 15, 2018 6:26:31 GMT
And I'd love to throw bombs and knives, like in TW2/TW3. Fire/soulrot bombs and acid flasks were the best thing about playing a rogue in DAO!
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N2
i'm just begging for change at the liqueur store... *face palm* no, not really.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by invisibleman on Jan 15, 2018 7:58:12 GMT
i just want my dagger wielding rogue to be able to connect with an opponent consistently. as i think in inquisition they goofed the range on the dagger rogue's melee attacks. basically, when using a few of the rogues's skills the dagger strikes don't connect when they should (ripping fangs, twin fangs and flank attack are the big offenders, iirc). it annoyed the hell out of me, and the melee rogue happens to be my favorite class in any dragon age game.
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Post by isaidlunch on Jan 15, 2018 8:24:47 GMT
DW rogues were miserable to play due to hit detection issues, removal of closing attacks and slower movement speed. It didn't feel smooth at all and I wish they'd stuck to how they played in DA2.
Hail of Arrows should've worked with daggers but otherwise the specializations were fine.
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cribbian
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Post by cribbian on Jan 15, 2018 8:46:41 GMT
They must fix the hit detection. Don't now how many times I tried to hit an enemy that had been knocked down only to stab at the air above him instead Not a fan of tempest and articifer either. I want duelist back. And remove class-restrictions on weapons and armor.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Jan 15, 2018 10:28:18 GMT
DA2 rogue is the only version of it that I've enjoyed; dagger rogue. It was so much fun to play. However, I admit that the class is a bit extreme in that game, with flying around all over the place, so I don't expect that to make a return.
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simit
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by simit on Jan 15, 2018 10:38:10 GMT
One of the things i enjoyed from ME:A was the sort of opening up of the classes to the player, something i'd like DA to adopt, guess it works well there cause it only really guns to worry about but im a fan of the idea of there all the abilities you make your own class, guess elder scrolls comes to mind yet i despise the magic an warrior "classes" in there, but having less options DA style where there built to work together be nice IE rogue using primal ala say tempest for elemental arrows/buffs/defense or hybrid warrior DW or sword n board or frontline mage using combo magic an warrior skills. This obviously would unlock all weapons/armour for all players to use which i like but yeah i doubt DA would see any of this specially if going to Tevinter or the sort of emphasis we had on classes as a whole throughout the series which for me is a pity
DA:I rogue i guess was in good place, one of if not my n1 fav spec was artificer which i enjoyed but overall tbh i found majority of all class advanced specs to be boring an DW was just a lesson in frustration cause as previously stated the art of "missing" the target was so common, most of things i'd like to see rogue do are just hybrids of the other classes like say Deaths Hand rogue utilizes DW an something maybe like death syphon aura so uses spirit/necro specs aswell as relevant rogue ones.
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Post by Fredward on Jan 15, 2018 10:45:59 GMT
I kiiinda want Solas to succeed just cuz I desperately wanna play a mage-rogue.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jan 15, 2018 11:01:42 GMT
I loved my dual wielding rogue in DAO and DA2, preferring them to the archer but I liked the fact that in DAO you had the option to switch between melee and ranged weapons mid-fight by the simple expedient of the two weapon slot set up, whereas it was annoying that I had to pause and go to the inventory screen in DA2.
It was the complete opposite with DAI. I just couldn't get on with dual wielder at all, mostly because of the slashing at thin air thing but then discovered that it was impossible to change to a bow mid-battle, so I stuck with having a specialist archer which I enjoyed immensely.
Favourite specialisms in DAO were ranger/assassin, plus Shadow in DAA. In DA2 I just loved being a Shadow/Assassin and it was such fun, particularly against the Arishok. With DAI I was happy being an assassin again but mostly because it took longer for me to get the things I needed to be an artificer.
I preferred having more than one specialism in the previous games and also the skill trees but the option to swap weapons and have a rogue who could use something other than daggers provided they met the requirements for using the weapon is what I would most like a return to in the next game.
I'm hoping for some new builds all round when we get to Tevinter. There are specialist groups that operate within Tevinter in all classes or also outside Tevinter, such as the Fog Warriors/Dancers, so there is scope for something new and interesting.
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Post by themikefest on Jan 15, 2018 14:38:00 GMT
I like to have a sniper rogue. One that uses a bow to kill an enemy from a long distance.
As said above. I like to swap weapons like in DAO. I can go from using a bow to using dual daggers in an instant.
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Post by fylimar on Jan 15, 2018 16:51:10 GMT
I agree about being able to switch weapons during a fight. That was my favorite feat in DAO. I love the dual wield rogue in DA 2 and the archer rogue in DAI. As for classes, I would love to see the ranger and bard back again. Artificer was fun too. For new classes, maybe something like Tallis tree, it's nice for a more stealthy rogue and would work well with most other specs. It also helps de rogues to get to an enemy quickly.
I would love to see class combos, something like the arcane trickster from D&D for example.
And please please, no more reduction to 8 ability slots, I like my variety of abilities- it also helps, if you want to play a rogue who does archery and dual wielding.
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copper
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Post by copper on Jan 15, 2018 19:13:28 GMT
I'd like more weapon specialization options. Like, I don't know if this is better for a warrior or a melee rogue, but I'd love the option to just wield a one handed weapon without a shield or second weapon in the off hand. I'm picturing the Pirates of the Caribbean movies where most characters parry and dodge with just one handed swords.
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N2
i'm just begging for change at the liqueur store... *face palm* no, not really.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: CasperTheLich
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Post by invisibleman on Jan 15, 2018 20:10:47 GMT
in DA:O & DA:A most of my party members in most playthroughs did both melee & ranged combat, i just liked having flexible combat teams. and at later stages some of my rogue characters would evolve to using dual swords, i too miss the flexibility of the earlier class systems, as somebody mentioned earlier.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Jan 15, 2018 20:16:55 GMT
Core Classes: I wouldn't deviate too much from DAI. I might change dual-wield to include one-handed swords as well as daggers and maybe drop AOE daggers for balance, but the basic DW, Archery, Sabotage and Subterfuge trees are pretty good. That said, I suggest some tweaks in Specializations and Abilities.
Specializations: I'd like to bring back Duelist. That's more of a Rivainian thing, but who cares? It's fun.
To me, rogues have three main functions: 1) thievery, 2) assassination, 3) tricks & traps. The thing I'd change is that weapons combat ability would be cross-cutting across all specializations. For example, I'd move the Duelist skills into the base DW tree, instead of making it a specialization. If you DW, you either go for finesse or backstabbing, like left and right branches of the skill tree. That done, the specializations would naturally follow the 3 functions. Thievery spec would get more skills appropriate for a thief: from Fast-Talk/Persuasion skills to second-story climbing and acrobatics. Assassins would get more ways to sneak/impersonate/poison (move the poison skills from Sabotage into this spec), but not necessarily OP combat skills. And the Trapper would detect, remove and set up snares and traps -- skills that require planning and foresight -- but no spamming bombs. The point of specializations should be to incentivize specific play styles, not just increase DPS and make characters OP. In general, I'd move the big DPS skills into the base trees, and the playstyle and, well, specialization skills into specializations. Not that specs would be weak -- maybe the only way to get certain rewards or content in the game is tied to stealing the right jewel, or poisoning the right noble without being detected, or non-lethally trapping the right messenger. I think I'd move lockpicking into the Thievery specialization, rather than any rogue being able to do it. Or maybe any rogue can do ordinary locks, but Masterworks require the spec.
Abilities: As mentioned above, I'd move poison (the whole left side of the tree) out of Sabotage and into the Assassin specialization where it belongs. I'd replace it with more skills that are like those on the right hand side -- stuff that increases mobility, precision, and AoE. I'd move most of the stealthy stuff out of Subterfuge and into Assassin as well. I'd replace the Suberfuge tree with stuff from the DAI Assassin's tree, like Hidden Blades and the passives, so that any rogue can have good DPS skills. I'd also take stuff pulled from Tempest, not the alchemy flavor, but the effect, like being able to chain skills together without losing stamina, or moving faster than normal, or having some temporary armor. Again, stuff that all rogues should be able to do. I'd also put something like Fallback plan in the replacement for Subterfuge. After all those changes, the new tree would be called Chicanery instead of Subterfuge, since there would be nothing subtle or secret about it left.
Combat: Pretty much follows from everything above: base rogue skills get all the DPS buffs, DW would be able to use one-handed swords too and get some ranged attacks from Chicanery, Archery gets some DPS assistance from the Chicanery tree, and specs encourage adding non-combat activities to the overall rogue gameplay.
Novas Ultras: Shakedown for the Thievery spec. Any damage done to any enemy in the area of effect makes them drop random gold or 1 item of loot that they would normally drop, including bosses and quest items. It would be possible to get a quest/progress item from a boss without actually having to defeat them. Isn't that what a Master Thief should be able to do?
Cloak of Shadows for the Assassin spec, except that it lasts longer and allies get a boost to combat power while active.
Fog of War for the Trapper. It's like Poison Cloud/Lost In The Mist, except it gives allies healing and accelerated stamina/mana recovery, while slowing down enemies like quicksand or freezing.
Pie-In-The-Sky: Give up on classes, go to a straight skills-based system, ala MEA.
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Post by tacsear on Jan 15, 2018 20:23:21 GMT
DAI did rogues best especially archers, but a Ranger spec is certainly welcome
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N2
i'm just begging for change at the liqueur store... *face palm* no, not really.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: CasperTheLich
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Post by invisibleman on Jan 15, 2018 20:28:15 GMT
DAI did rogues best especially archers, but a Ranger spec is certainly welcome i'd have to disagree with you there. they completely failed with the dw rogue. IMHO
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Ravenfeeder
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Post by Ravenfeeder on Jan 15, 2018 20:46:03 GMT
I'd like Rogues to be skill-monkeys rather than combat monsters, though I realise that's my tRPG roots showing. Of course they'd have to change to whole focus of the game away from being all about combat, but I'd be fine with that too.
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Post by yeah rip on Jan 15, 2018 21:15:02 GMT
Abilities: I liked tempest a lot. Having the power of freeze enemies. And I'd love to throw bombs and knives, like in TW2/TW3. You can kinda do it in DAI too. Playing Artificer is basically just things exploding around you all the time. What I really want for DA4 is to bring stealing back, though it's not necessarily rogue-specific. And backstabs for DW rogues. And an option to use one-handed weapons other than daggers for DW. And the ability to pick two specs at once. Basically, I just want DAO combat back. edit: Almost forgot - more "dirty tricks" that aren't necessarily super damaging, but act as debuffs. Sand-in-eyes for stun, kick in the groin tor -dexterity etc. Again, like DAO did it.
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Post by tacsear on Jan 15, 2018 21:48:36 GMT
DAI did rogues best especially archers, but a Ranger spec is certainly welcome i'd have to disagree with you there. they completely failed with the dw rogue. IMHO Dunno, I loved the stealth and flanking thing it's very smooth
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N2
i'm just begging for change at the liqueur store... *face palm* no, not really.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: CasperTheLich
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Post by invisibleman on Jan 15, 2018 21:59:22 GMT
i'd have to disagree with you there. they completely failed with the dw rogue. IMHO Dunno, I loved the stealth and flanking thing it's very smooth IMHO, until they fix the hit detection issues, it's an epic fail to me.
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Post by tacsear on Jan 15, 2018 22:11:03 GMT
Dunno, I loved the stealth and flanking thing it's very smooth IMHO, until they fix the hit detection issues, it's an epic fail to me. What hit detection issues?
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Post by Lazarillo on Jan 15, 2018 22:43:24 GMT
We have threads for Warrior & Mage ideas for DA4 We have? I musta missed 'em, but now I'm curious how those went. I think the non-Mage classes are generally in a pretty good place in Inquisition. The lack of reliable healing and out-of-battle recovery probably hits Rogues the hardest of the three main classes, making Stealth a much bigger crutch than it was in the previous games, but on the other hand, I respect that Stealth is also much more useful than in previous games. Striking a better balance where it is a useful tool but not an essential tool, I think, is probably where I'd want to see the most work done (as the healing thing, in itself, is not really a Rogue-specific problem). As for multiclassing, that's a big no, IMO. I like the basic approach that DA has; at most, a little bit of a mix from some of the specialties is okay, though, and it'd be neat to see wider weapon options like in Origins, as others have noted. All in all, I'd like to see weapon ability trees and class ability trees be completely independent of class ability trees, and bring back weapon switching. But a Tempest or Duelist specialization is the closest we need to an actual "hybrid class". On the front of specializations, I'd like to see Ranger come back. A lot has been done with Specializations and ability trees since Origins, and I think the present approach to ability trees could allow for a much more interesting built than clunky, redundant Ranger approach that we got before. I'm less eager regarding "Lore-Based" specializations. If we get a "Fog Warrior" or "Ben-Hassrath" spec, then they should be for companions who actually come from those backgrounds (like they were for Fenris and Tallis in DA2), or, perhaps this could be interesting, tie them to preset character "origins" (although I'm less eager on this round, just because, on principle, I don't want a variety of "origins" for the DA4 PC). For combat, one big thing with Rogues, for me, is the idea of mobility. A rogue should always feel in control of the situation. An Archer should always have a hidden knife ready for an enemy who gets too close, and if they prefer daggers, then a toss should feel just as natural as a slice. They should be unexpected as well, and always where they're meant to be. The "teleport"-type moves are some of my favorites, and I especially loved the Flank Attack + Skirmisher combo in Inquisition. Leaping Shot and it's similar upgrade were a similarly good balance, and had a similar feel in terms of mechanics, though I'd prefer less...acrobatically inclined animations. Varric absolutely fits the Rogue archetype, but he shouldn't be doing backflips. I think the trees have been mostly good, though I wouldn't mind more branching and/or reconnecting. Options are better, but the further you get up a tree, the more "specialized" it should feel. And trees should never be redundant (I'm looking at you DA2 trees with multiple mandatory stances that are needed for the one stance you actually want). Focus abilities should just be taken out. They were a neat concept, but I found them rather disappointing in practice. Too good to simply use, too weak to feel like you got your money's worth for "saving", and not suited to the AI, in either case.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Jan 15, 2018 23:12:17 GMT
IMHO, until they fix the hit detection issues, it's an epic fail to me. What hit detection issues? Abilities like Twin Fangs don't do very well against enemies that are not human sized or that have four or more legs. Trying to backstab a phoenix or spider with Twin Fangs is pretty comedic. Your character will chase the enemy around the battle field, never landing the blow, but blocking you from triggering a new ability. Even just regular melee, if you don't lock onto the target, you miss a pretty high percentage of times, unless you use AoE daggers.
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