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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Feb 9, 2018 3:17:17 GMT
Yes, thank god for dialogue choices, except where's the nuance that lets me ask TIM why the hell he even thinks he has found the lead that makes it possible to control Reapers or why he thinks this key will be in the Crucible data, before I get the dialogue prompts that assume he's delusional and crazy and has turned on humanity.
There's virtue alright. Virtue signaling, of the hastiest, unintelligent kind.
Here's a good way to pace a good guy vs bad guy argument, exemplified with Saren too.
- Hero confronts villain - Villain threatens - Hero doesn't understand how someone can be this twisted and not see a common goal in not doing stuff that hurts people - Hero then asks "why?" - Villain reasons from their POV - Hero responds "You're so wrong, lemme kick yo butt!"
But with TIM it's more like
- Hero meets villain - Villain acts villainous in his tone - Hero starts slandering him - Kai Leng drop, Ooooh!
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The Hype Himself
Proud Sponsor of Swingin' Seamen Charter Fishing: My Live Bait Will Catch Your Fish Every Time!
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Post by The Hype Himself on Feb 9, 2018 3:42:12 GMT
+1 for "virtue signaling!"
You have fun with that.
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Post by opuspace on Feb 18, 2018 6:21:43 GMT
Like a bad cliche. I started tuning him out because of all the predictable, "You're short-sighted, you've never been willing to make the hard decisions, This is for humanity."
The problem was that Cerberus was not written well in terms of morally grey. The most we hear about them in ME1 was them assassinating a human admiral to hush him up, constant disasters from tampering with aliens, and messing with Alliance soldiers by feeding them to thresher maws. By ME2...it was more of the same thing where humans were getting killed and now we have their leader handwaving it off. What was needed was more incentive to not trust aliens and less reason to believe Cerberus would somehow get a bunch of humans killed trying to experiment on a pyjak. More success stories, more benefits to humanity's ascension as a Council race from their actions. From there, the Illusive Man would be seen as the complicated character they intended. As he is, ME3 had me bored and uninterested in the interactions with the Illusive Man because he did nothing that defied the expectations that were already set up.
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dmc1001
N7
Biotic Booty
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: ferroboy
Prime Posts: 77
Posts: 9,942 Likes: 17,687
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by dmc1001 on Feb 18, 2018 6:45:42 GMT
opuspace: Yes, that's exactly what was needed for Cerberus and TIM to have come off as complicated and a "necessary evil". Humanity became a Council race in under 30 years. No...other...race...EVER...did...that...! Hence, the claims that humanity was being held back were outright ridiculous. It's one reason I thought that humanity having been on the galactic scene a lot longer, hundreds of years, maybe as an unwilling client race of the turians after losing the First Contact War, would have worked far better. We might have seen evidence that humanity was very capable, that the turians didn't want to admit it (making Sparatus's behavior toward Shepard even more believable, particularly in ME1), and uncovering evidence that the turians were actively working against humanity. Saren's betrayal would have hit home harder, the other members of the Council might have let it slide, and someone like TIM would have known that Udina (he'd best suit this scenario) ought to have replaced Sparatus rather than be an addition to the Council. All that said, TIM was written as a villain. Cerberus were written as villains. Novels and games both had him the same way. His lines like "superiority for Cerberus is superiority for humanity" (I'm badly paraphrasing so feel free to correct it) come off as nothing more than Ming the Merciless trying for galactic conquest. He doesn't care per se that humanity is advanced; he cares that HE is advanced. At least, that's how he was written. I could have gotten behind the underdog trying to find a way for humanity to have at least an equal standing but that's not what we got.
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Post by sil on Feb 18, 2018 10:12:39 GMT
And this would be the codex entry for Shepard then: “The Shepard” is a socio-religious entity, worshiped in several belief systems with various degrees of popularity throughout the galaxy. While the fact that “The Shepard” represents an actual historical figure is widely accepted among the archaeological and historical community, some of the more miraculous deeds, ascribed to the figure (such as resurrection, the curing of entire races from sickness or “The Shepard’s” alleged death to atone for the galaxy’s sin of creating AIs) are disputed by scientists. A number of more radical critics have dismissed claims that “The Shepard” existed entirely, based on the fact that it cannot even be established if it was a man or a woman. Interestingly, descriptions of “The Shepard’s” achievements are mostly consistent throughout the different religions that focus on this persona. However, the various interpretations differ when it comes to specifics, such as details in certain actions, exact words spoken and most importantly the general demeanor of “The Shepard”. While some ascribe a benevolent and compassionate stance to the figure, others uphold the view of an uncompromising and unscrupulous pragmatist. Frequently, these disputes escalate into violence between the different sects, the most notable occurrences being the Paragonian Crusades in the 31st century (Shepardian calendar) and the Renegade terror campaigns in the 3350s. However, despite these schisms, most of the various clergies view “The Shepard” and the 19 apostles as messianic saviours and many await the return of a new incarnation of this mysterious entity. Seriously though, the Stargazer scene doesn't give them a free path for failures in the narrative. It's a story regardless, whether the story teller is BioWare directly or the Stargazer, causalities should be properly explained by either one. Nah, "The Shepard" is the name of the Reaper formed out of humanity at the end of the Cycle. The reference to legend is a way to gently let uploaded human minds accept their place in their new digitised reality by framing the real world as nothing more than a story, and the next story is the tale of the next Cycle.
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Post by scotthedge12 on Feb 28, 2018 3:41:52 GMT
They simplified an incredible morally grey character into a mustache twirling moron in part 3. #Notmytim I'm still still a Cerberus lifer tho.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, KOTOR, Jade Empire
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Post by Vortex13 on Mar 5, 2018 16:32:01 GMT
opuspace : Yes, that's exactly what was needed for Cerberus and TIM to have come off as complicated and a "necessary evil". Humanity became a Council race in under 30 years. No...other...race...EVER...did...that...! Hence, the claims that humanity was being held back were outright ridiculous. It's one reason I thought that humanity having been on the galactic scene a lot longer, hundreds of years, maybe as an unwilling client race of the turians after losing the First Contact War, would have worked far better. We might have seen evidence that humanity was very capable, that the turians didn't want to admit it (making Sparatus's behavior toward Shepard even more believable, particularly in ME1), and uncovering evidence that the turians were actively working against humanity. Saren's betrayal would have hit home harder, the other members of the Council might have let it slide, and someone like TIM would have known that Udina (he'd best suit this scenario) ought to have replaced Sparatus rather than be an addition to the Council. All that said, TIM was written as a villain. Cerberus were written as villains. Novels and games both had him the same way. His lines like "superiority for Cerberus is superiority for humanity" (I'm badly paraphrasing so feel free to correct it) come off as nothing more than Ming the Merciless trying for galactic conquest. He doesn't care per se that humanity is advanced; he cares that HE is advanced. At least, that's how he was written. I could have gotten behind the underdog trying to find a way for humanity to have at least an equal standing but that's not what we got. That was a major problem for the games' narrative overall. Cerberus was pointless as an organization, not only because they were wildly incompetent at bringing about "human dominance", but also because humanity was already dominating the galactic scene without their help. • Council embassy in less than 30 years • Council member/completely human Council • Economically outpacing the Volus • Military innovations running circles around the Turians • Scientific breakthroughs beyond the Salarians • Biotic potential and diplomatic influence rivaling that of the Asari • Greater 'genetic diversity' than any other species in the galaxy • Even the Reapers are wary of us • Etc. When viewed in light of the whole "humans are special" shtick we are constantly bombarded with throughout the trilogy Cerberus serves about the same purpose as a man on the sidewalk screaming that water is wet.
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Post by kalreegar on Mar 8, 2018 19:50:24 GMT
decent character. Not great, but decent. Fuly indocrtrinated sometimes between Mars and Tuchanka.
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