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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2018 16:18:57 GMT
They weren’t good stories, but they were singleplayer. That...doesn't help the case for the single-player experience... Not to mention you're required to be online just to play the damn game.
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Post by Iakus on Feb 27, 2018 16:19:37 GMT
That...doesn't help the case for the single-player experience... Not to mention you're required to be online just to play the damn game. True but Bioware games have been like that for years. It's a separate gripe.
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Post by majesticjazz on Feb 27, 2018 16:22:17 GMT
Here we are with the denial nonsense. I guess you didnt watch the E3 demo.... This is from the official Anthem site: "In this shared-world action-RPG, you and your friends are Freelancers—the bold few with the courage to leave civilization behind, explore a landscape of primeval beauty, and confront the dangers you find." "Up to four players band together to take on whatever perils you discover as a heroic team. As your friends support you in your journey, so do your victories and rewards benefit your friends." What about SHARED WORLD and you AND YOUR FRIENDS do you not understand? I never saw that verbiage with the MET or DA trilogy. Even with MEA's, ME3, and DAI that verbiage wasnt used as the main marketing pitch, despite all 3 of those games having MP. So you are saying BioWare is wrong in giving what its vocal fans have been saying they want in a game since Mass Effect 1 where I kept seeing comments along the lines of "we want co-op BioWare games"? We have all seen first hand what can happen if BioWare attempts to appease too many people. With Dragon Age: Inquisition they tried to give the 20 hour playthrough and 100 hour playthrough people a game and it feels like a whole lot of the world is wasted unless you are a completionist. Also with Inquisition how they didn't want to go back and scrap the PS3 and 360 versions of the game like CDPR and they got raked over the coals with complaints about content that got cut. I know not everyone feels the same way, but my opinion is that Mass Effect: Andromeda was BioWare trying to give as many people as possible what they wanted by with having so many different goals when it came to their systems for there were plenty of things I saw in the game that were constantly asked for. Just because you think its problematic or that people want a classic story type game from BioWare doesn't mean that is what everyone wants to see or what their priority is for what they are wanting. There is no way BioWare will be able to please everyone that wants things in their games and it just happens the direction they are going won't please you, but it doesn't mean that it isn't what other people want and were going to avoid the game if it was purely focused on single player. [Edit: Changed second paragraph] I think the solution is for Bioware to stop trying to please everyone and just pick a standard and stick with it. If people complain then let them complain. Thats been Bioware's problem starting after the release of ME1. Instead of sticking with a standard and continuously improving that standard, they jump all over the place.
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Post by majesticjazz on Feb 27, 2018 16:31:49 GMT
Here we are with the denial nonsense. I guess you didnt watch the E3 demo.... This is from the official Anthem site: "In this shared-world action-RPG, you and your friends are Freelancers—the bold few with the courage to leave civilization behind, explore a landscape of primeval beauty, and confront the dangers you find." "Up to four players band together to take on whatever perils you discover as a heroic team. As your friends support you in your journey, so do your victories and rewards benefit your friends." What about SHARED WORLD and you AND YOUR FRIENDS do you not understand? I never saw that verbiage with the MET or DA trilogy. Even with MEA's, ME3, and DAI that verbiage wasnt used as the main marketing pitch, despite all 3 of those games having MP. Destiny and the Division also talk a big game about having shared worlds you can experience with your friends. Guess what, the story in both those games is singleplayer at the end of the day. There is really no precedent for what you’re talking about. And yet nobody talks about how great of a SP experience the Division and Destiny had. Phantasy Star Online could also be played 100% solo, but that didnt make it SP. What you all are forgetting is what will yeild EA the most money? Obviously there will be some type of MTs linked to MP which we all know EA sees a large chunk of their post release revenue comes from. If I were EA, I would make it to where the player is rewarded more for playing the game MP over SP such as faster leveling, better loot drops etc. This would be the lure to playing MP over SP. Cause lets be honest with ourselves, EA is not going to allow gamers to just get away with only playing SP. There is a reason why the marketing is geared towards group play. They WANT you in MP and you can bet there will be some type of advantage of playing mostly MP over mostly SP. If you think EA is just being altruistic and giving us an optional coop mode and there will not be any incentive or advantage of playing MP then you are seriously naive and do not know how far EA will go to ensure thar their money stream is protected.
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Post by Heimdall on Feb 27, 2018 16:33:07 GMT
They weren’t good stories, but they were singleplayer. That...doesn't help the case for the single-player experience... Quality is a separate issue. Destiny 2 had two writers working on the story. Anthem has a seven person writing team led by Drew Karpyshan. Very different situations.
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Post by Heimdall on Feb 27, 2018 16:38:44 GMT
Destiny and the Division also talk a big game about having shared worlds you can experience with your friends. Guess what, the story in both those games is singleplayer at the end of the day. There is really no precedent for what you’re talking about. And yet nobody talks about how great of a SP experience the Division and Destiny had. Phantasy Star Online could also be played 100% solo, but that didnt make it SP. What you all are forgetting is what will yeild EA the most money? Obviously there will be some type of MTs linked to MP which we all know EA sees a large chunk of their post release revenue comes from. If I were EA, I would make it to where the player is rewarded more for playing the game MP over SP such as faster leveling, better loot drops etc. This would be the lure to playing MP over SP. Cause lets be honest with ourselves, EA is not going to allow gamers to just get away with only playing SP. There is a reason why the marketing is geared towards group play. They WANT you in MP and you can bet there will be some type of advantage of playing mostly MP over mostly SP. If you think EA is just being altruistic and giving us an optional coop mode and there will not be any incentive or advantage of playing MP then you are seriously naive and do not know how far EA will go to ensure thar their money stream is protected. As I said, quality is a separate issue. As to the emphasis placed on MP versus SP, you are making a lot of wild speculations about how a game can be best monetized.
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Post by Iakus on Feb 27, 2018 16:41:51 GMT
That...doesn't help the case for the single-player experience... Quality is a separate issue. Destiny 2 had two writers working on the story. Anthem has a seven person writing team led by Drew Karpyshan. Very different situations. And Mass Effect 2 had nine writers, Mass Effect 3 had ten writers, Mass Effect Andromeda had twelve writers. Whatever Stalin might believe, quantity does NOT have a quality of its own.
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Post by Iakus on Feb 27, 2018 16:43:32 GMT
And yet nobody talks about how great of a SP experience the Division and Destiny had. Phantasy Star Online could also be played 100% solo, but that didnt make it SP. What you all are forgetting is what will yeild EA the most money? Obviously there will be some type of MTs linked to MP which we all know EA sees a large chunk of their post release revenue comes from. If I were EA, I would make it to where the player is rewarded more for playing the game MP over SP such as faster leveling, better loot drops etc. This would be the lure to playing MP over SP. Cause lets be honest with ourselves, EA is not going to allow gamers to just get away with only playing SP. There is a reason why the marketing is geared towards group play. They WANT you in MP and you can bet there will be some type of advantage of playing mostly MP over mostly SP. If you think EA is just being altruistic and giving us an optional coop mode and there will not be any incentive or advantage of playing MP then you are seriously naive and do not know how far EA will go to ensure thar their money stream is protected. As I said, quality is a separate issue. As to the emphasis placed on MP versus SP, you are making a lot of wild speculations about how a game can be best monetized. Umm, this is EA. What evidence is there that they'd take any other path?
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Post by Heimdall on Feb 27, 2018 16:44:29 GMT
Quality is a separate issue. Destiny 2 had two writers working on the story. Anthem has a seven person writing team led by Drew Karpyshan. Very different situations. And Mass Effect 2 had nine writers, Mass Effect 3 had ten writers, Mass Effect Andromeda Andromeda had twelve writers. Whatever Stalin might believe, quantity does NOT have a quality of its own. Sure It is nonetheless an indicator that Bioware does not appear to be slacking with the story content any more than they would with another of their games.
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Post by samhain444 on Feb 27, 2018 16:45:36 GMT
The excuse I often hear for wanting "Anthem" to fail is "if they succeed, they'll make mooaarr like it"... Oddly enough, the chance exists that, if "Anthem" succeeds, they can continue making content for "Anthem" AND "Dragon Age"/"Mass Effect" because they'll have the resources to do it. Bioware already has a massive multiplayer game in SWTOR and yet Bioware doesnt have resources? EA has massive cash cows like Madden, FIFA, Battlefield etc and yet EA still cannot cover Bioware to just do MP? Wasnt that one of the deals to go under EA? That they would get the funding they need to make great traditional Bioware games? They didn't "go under EA", EA bought them out over a decade ago. BioWare didn't say "well, we need some funding...we choose you EA". The potential was there that would have more resources available to them being a EA subsidiary and EA bought BioWare because they were a studio that could produce quality games like KOTOR and Jade Empire. Each could mutually benefit from EA acquiring BioWare but EA is still the boss. There are not unlimited resources either. EA's massive cash cows are with other subsidiary developers and are each themselves expected to turn a profit and be self-sufficient entities. In BioWare's case, SWTOR, Anthem, and DA all have teams of people working on them currently with varying degrees of focus depending on how close they are to release. Right now, Anthem gets the focus because they are supposedly 9-10 months away from potentially going "Gold" and getting it ready for completion. Additionally, SWTOR is an ongoing focus due to its existing player base with a skeleton crew reportedly working out the development of DA4. If Anthem is successful, both initially monetarily through sales and player engagement, EA seems more likely to commit more resources to BioWare to continue to develop not only Anthem as a CO-OP/shared world, SWTOR as an MMO and DA4, but perhaps hire the people necessary to thaw out the Mass Effect franchise or research and develop other IPs as they are at that point as a studio that produces successful and profitable content.
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Post by rras1994 on Feb 27, 2018 16:48:42 GMT
Bioware already has a massive multiplayer game in SWTOR and yet Bioware doesnt have resources? EA has massive cash cows like Madden, FIFA, Battlefield etc and yet EA still cannot cover Bioware to just do MP? Wasnt that one of the deals to go under EA? That they would get the funding they need to make great traditional Bioware games? They didn't "go under EA", EA bought them out over a decade ago. BioWare didn't say "well, we need some funding...we choose you EA". The potential was there that would have more resources available to them being a EA subsidiary and EA bought BioWare because they were a studio that could produce quality games like KOTOR and Jade Empire. Each could mutually benefit from EA acquiring BioWare but EA is still the boss. There are not unlimited resources either. EA's massive cash cows are with other subsidiary developers and are each themselves expected to turn a profit and be self-sufficient entities. In BioWare's case, SWTOR, Anthem, and DA all have teams of people working on them currently with varying degrees of focus depending on how close they are to release. Right now, Anthem gets the focus because they are supposedly 9-10 months away from potentially going "Gold" and getting it ready for completion. Additionally, SWTOR is an ongoing focus due to its existing player base with a skeleton crew reportedly working out the development of DA4. If Anthem is successful, both initially monetarily through sales and player engagement, EA seems more likely to commit more resources to BioWare to continue to develop not only Anthem as a CO-OP/shared world, SWTOR as an MMO and DA4, but perhaps hire the people necessary to thaw out the Mass Effect franchise or research and develop other IPs as they are at that point as a studio that produces successful and profitable content. I actually wonder if that's part of the plan with the new building for BioWare Edmonton that it may allow them to increase staff, and BioWare Austin seems to be hiring alot for a while now. Anthem could be used as a plan to fund the expansion of the BioWare studios and to handle the size needed to juggle multiple projects.
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Post by Iakus on Feb 27, 2018 16:53:07 GMT
And Mass Effect 2 had nine writers, Mass Effect 3 had ten writers, Mass Effect Andromeda Andromeda had twelve writers. Whatever Stalin might believe, quantity does NOT have a quality of its own. Sure It is nonetheless an indicator that Bioware does not appear to be slacking with the story content any more than they would with another of their games. ...Except that this game does not have a single player focus, and other published games of this type have a proven track record of having thin, low-quality stories. So, given Bioware's already sliding standards of writing in recent years, and the night-universal tendency of Destiny clones to have sub-par stories when compared to SP games in the first place, what the hell evidence is there to be optimistic AT ALL in the single player experience in this game? Everything, and I mean EVERYTHING points towards the exact opposite.
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Post by samhain444 on Feb 27, 2018 16:57:43 GMT
They didn't "go under EA", EA bought them out over a decade ago. BioWare didn't say "well, we need some funding...we choose you EA". The potential was there that would have more resources available to them being a EA subsidiary and EA bought BioWare because they were a studio that could produce quality games like KOTOR and Jade Empire. Each could mutually benefit from EA acquiring BioWare but EA is still the boss. There are not unlimited resources either. EA's massive cash cows are with other subsidiary developers and are each themselves expected to turn a profit and be self-sufficient entities. In BioWare's case, SWTOR, Anthem, and DA all have teams of people working on them currently with varying degrees of focus depending on how close they are to release. Right now, Anthem gets the focus because they are supposedly 9-10 months away from potentially going "Gold" and getting it ready for completion. Additionally, SWTOR is an ongoing focus due to its existing player base with a skeleton crew reportedly working out the development of DA4. If Anthem is successful, both initially monetarily through sales and player engagement, EA seems more likely to commit more resources to BioWare to continue to develop not only Anthem as a CO-OP/shared world, SWTOR as an MMO and DA4, but perhaps hire the people necessary to thaw out the Mass Effect franchise or research and develop other IPs as they are at that point as a studio that produces successful and profitable content. I actually wonder if that's part of the plan with the new building for BioWare Edmonton that it may allow them to increase staff, and BioWare Austin seems to be hiring alot for a while now. Anthem could be used as a plan to fund the expansion of the BioWare studios and to handle the size needed to juggle multiple projects. That seems to be the plan, or at least my assumption as well. Anthem doesn't appear to be the type of game like Mass Effect or Dragon Age where you can release it with 3 SP DLCs and a few outfit and gun packs to follow and that's it. Like SWTOR, Anthem is going to require a dedicated team to continuously churn out new content so, after the developers finish polishing Anthem for release and complete its inevitable patches, they theoretically move on to DA4 at that point for the full focus of development. One of the the job openings for BioWare that has been circulated is a new Producer for Anthem so it makes me wonder if Mark Darrah and Mike Gamble are looking to have someone to take the reins of Anthem while go back to the familiar properties of Dragon Age and Mass Effect
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Post by Heimdall on Feb 27, 2018 17:02:15 GMT
As I said, quality is a separate issue. As to the emphasis placed on MP versus SP, you are making a lot of wild speculations about how a game can be best monetized. Umm, this is EA. What evidence is there that they'd take any other path? What evidence is there that they will hamstring singleplayer the way you fear? What Bioware game have they done that in the past? EA knows from past Bioware games that the singleplayer is a powerful tool for drawing people in, they aren’t going to sabotage it as that’s only a good way to drive off players. They recently learned that lesson in BF2, where they tried to limit the credits you could attain offline, and that’s a multiplayer game. It only generated a ton of backlash. On the other hand, when people are drawn in they often try out MP even if they didn’t originally plan to and many spend. I don’t really see the rationale for assuming the worst case scenario here.
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Post by luketrevelyan on Feb 27, 2018 17:12:03 GMT
A good quality story is important, but we often overlook the importance of how the story gets implemented. I can read a book, watch a TV show, or go see a play and get great stories and characters.
Why am I playing a game to get this story? If it is just going to be like playing a movie, that doesn't do a lot for me. How do I interact, contribute, and change the story? Why do the characters matter to me?
So far we haven't really heard anything to indicate interactivity within the story. Questions about BioWare staples like choices, dialogue options, companions, and romance have all gone unanswered up to this point. It is a huge red flag that no one has come out to say something like "of course there will be dialogue options...this is Bioware." I think the closest we've come is something like "shaping the world", which is broad/generic enough to be almost meaningless.
Until we get information about our interaction with the story, I can't get too excited about this game.
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Post by Heimdall on Feb 27, 2018 17:14:51 GMT
Sure It is nonetheless an indicator that Bioware does not appear to be slacking with the story content any more than they would with another of their games. ...Except that this game does not have a single player focus, and other published games of this type have a proven track record of having thin, low-quality stories. So, given Bioware's already sliding standards of writing in recent years, and the night-universal tendency of Destiny clones to have sub-par stories when compared to SP games in the first place, what the hell evidence is there to be optimistic AT ALL in the single player experience in this game? Everything, and I mean EVERYTHING points towards the exact opposite. And as I said, just because the marketing talks a big game about coop doesn’t mean the story isn’t singleplayer focused, as has been the case for literally every game in this space. There is literally not a single game in this space that has had a multiplayer story. Could you list some of these Destiny clones for me, because beyond the Division and possibly Borderlands there really isn’t much in this space for you to make comparison too. Of course, you could also look at Bioware’s own history of taking a traditionally narrative lite genre like the MMO and applying their own style to it as they did in SWTOR. Bioware is not slaved to the expectations of the genre. And regarding the writing quality, I’m going to assume you liked Bioware’s older stories so shouldn’t the return of Drew Karpyshyn be enough cause for some degree of optimism? Those are the reasons I find to be optimistic at any rate.
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Post by Sanunes on Feb 27, 2018 17:19:36 GMT
Destiny and the Division also talk a big game about having shared worlds you can experience with your friends. Guess what, the story in both those games is singleplayer at the end of the day. There is really no precedent for what you’re talking about. That's odd. Everything I've heard about Destiny and The Divion's single player uses such adjectives as "thin" and "repetitious" Edit: If they were smart, they'd at least take a page from Neverwinter Nights and allow modders to create their OWN storylines, companions, etc. And let the players participate in a group storytelling system. But I guess that would screw up the whole microtransaction system if they allowed that sort of thing I didn't start playing The Division until recently when a bunch of my friends jumped back into the game, but I wouldn't call it "thin" and "repetitious", for its probably better then most Ubisoft games that I have played its biggest flaw was trying to go the BioWare route so you could relate to the protagonist more so they weren't fully developed. Destiny 2 definitely was "thin" and "repetitive" for my experience, but I know people say the same thing about most MMOs and The Old Republic for me at least went way beyond the normal story expectations I had for MMOs.
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Post by Heimdall on Feb 27, 2018 17:20:14 GMT
Questions about BioWare staples like choices, dialogue options, companions, and romance have all gone unanswered up to this point. It is a huge red flag that no one has come out to say something like "of course there will be dialogue options...this is Bioware." I really don’t think it is, not when so few questions about anything have been answered. And the truth is that this sort of thing has never been featured in Bioware’s early marketing for any of their games. I remember people completely losing their heads when they saw Shepard deliver autodialogue without prompts in some early ME3 material, with some people going all the way to the fear that dialogue choice would not return or only in a very limited capacity.
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Post by Iakus on Feb 27, 2018 17:29:50 GMT
Umm, this is EA. What evidence is there that they'd take any other path? What evidence is there that they will hamstring singleplayer the way you fear? Because everything they have shown or advertised thus far has been focused on multiplayer? That this game is clearly inspired by MP-focused games? If they were actually making a Bioware-style multiplayer game like Neverwinter Nights, this would be less worrying. [quote EA knows from past Bioware games that the singleplayer is a powerful tool for drawing people in, they aren’t going to sabotage it as that’s only a good way to drive off players. [/quote] EA doesn't have a clue what to do with single player games. Which only goes to show their greed. Oh, this is far from worst case. This is simply extrapolating based on past games.
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Post by Iakus on Feb 27, 2018 17:30:38 GMT
Questions about BioWare staples like choices, dialogue options, companions, and romance have all gone unanswered up to this point. It is a huge red flag that no one has come out to say something like "of course there will be dialogue options...this is Bioware." I really don’t think it is, not when so few questions about anything have been answered. And the truth is that this sort of thing has never been featured in Bioware’s early marketing for any of their games. I remember people completely losing their heads when they saw Shepard deliver autodialogue without prompts in some early ME3 material, with some people going all the way to the fear that dialogue choice would not return or only in a very limited capacity.They were right.
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Post by Iakus on Feb 27, 2018 17:37:23 GMT
...Except that this game does not have a single player focus, and other published games of this type have a proven track record of having thin, low-quality stories. So, given Bioware's already sliding standards of writing in recent years, and the night-universal tendency of Destiny clones to have sub-par stories when compared to SP games in the first place, what the hell evidence is there to be optimistic AT ALL in the single player experience in this game? Everything, and I mean EVERYTHING points towards the exact opposite. And as I said, just because the marketing talks a big game about coop doesn’t mean the story isn’t singleplayer focused, as has been the case for literally every game in this space. There is literally not a single game in this space that has had a multiplayer story. Then why don't they say so? Warframe Killzone: Shadowfall Defiance (is that still around?) Titanfall 2
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Post by Heimdall on Feb 27, 2018 18:25:19 GMT
And as I said, just because the marketing talks a big game about coop doesn’t mean the story isn’t singleplayer focused, as has been the case for literally every game in this space. There is literally not a single game in this space that has had a multiplayer story. Then why don't they say so? Because they haven’t said much of anything? Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, especially when they have revealed so little of any aspect of the game. That said, devs have stated that “traditional Bioware storytelling” would be present in Anthem. And as I mentioned, a singleplayer story isn’t unusual in this genre. Warframe definitely qualifies. I don’t think Defiance is really around anymore, but I always thought it fell into a more traditional MMO mold, definitely similar though. Aren’t Killzone and Titanfall 2 pretty standard first person shooters?
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Post by Lazarillo on Feb 27, 2018 18:36:48 GMT
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, especially when they have revealed so little of any aspect of the game. Saying there's an absence of evidence isn't really accurate, though. Just because nothing has been officially stated, doesn't mean there's not precedence. Yes, Anthem could be wholly unique, but the chances that it'll be something nobody expected are absolutely the lowest of the low, simply because, well, the chances of anything really breaking the mold that much are such.
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Post by ShadowAngel on Feb 27, 2018 18:42:32 GMT
Then why don't they say so? Because they haven’t said much of anything? Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, especially when they have revealed so little of any aspect of the game. That said, devs have stated that “traditional Bioware storytelling” would be present in Anthem. And as I mentioned, a singleplayer story isn’t unusual in this genre. Warframe definitely qualifies. I don’t think Defiance is really around anymore, but I always thought it fell into a more traditional MMO mold, definitely similar though. Aren’t Killzone and Titanfall 2 pretty standard first person shooters? Not sure on killzone as I never played it, but TF2 is essentially CoD with mechs, not sure I'd compare it much to destiny myself.
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Post by Heimdall on Feb 27, 2018 18:47:44 GMT
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, especially when they have revealed so little of any aspect of the game. Saying there's an absence of evidence isn't really accurate, though. Just because nothing has been officially stated, doesn't mean there's not precedence. Yes, Anthem could be wholly unique, but the chances that it'll be something nobody expected are absolutely the lowest of the low, simply because, well, the chances of anything really breaking the mold that much are such. Sure, but a lot of people are making a lot of assumptions about which mold Anthem will fall into and how closely it will follow the example of those games. For example, it’s become a common assumption that Anthem will be a direct clone of Destiny, a comparison never given by the devs but made by the community because it includes coop and loot. On the other hand, I think Anthem could follow some of the same conventions as SWTOR.
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