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Post by PillarBiter on Jan 21, 2019 7:57:54 GMT
A morally grey conundrum popped up in my mind, which I believe belongs in the skepticism thread.
BioWare is able to buy it's freedom (it does a Bungie) because of how well Anthem does, but before being able to do so, Anthem has to do extremely well and meake EA bucketloads of money?
And follow-up conundrum: Now free, Bioware may focus again on single-player RPG's with fantastic story and characters and relationships, but can only focus on producing one game at a time (it does a CDPR), and chooses Anthem as it's core product.
Thoughts
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Post by saandrig on Jan 21, 2019 8:32:00 GMT
A morally grey conundrum popped up in my mind, which I believe belongs in the skepticism thread. BioWare is able to buy it's freedom (it does a Bungie) because of how well Anthem does, but before being able to do so, Anthem has to do extremely well and meake EA bucketloads of money? And follow-up conundrum: Now free, Bioware may focus again on single-player RPG's with fantastic story and characters and relationships, but can only focus on producing one game at a time (it does a CDPR), and chooses Anthem as it's core product. Thoughts Someone correct me if I am wrong, but Bungie was in a different situation compared to Bioware. Activision didn't own Bungie, so that's why they could do a sort of a "break up". EA owns Bioware and all it's IPs. So Bioware can't buy itself out since they don't get the money from the game, EA does. Even if someone decides to buy Bioware from EA (multimilion deal on it's own) it doesn't mean they will buy it along with the Bioware IPs (another multimilion deal on it's own). So it can end up with Bioware free of EA, but EA will still do DA and ME games with another studio.
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Post by Pounce de León on Jan 21, 2019 8:33:02 GMT
A morally grey conundrum popped up in my mind, which I believe belongs in the skepticism thread. BioWare is able to buy it's freedom (it does a Bungie) because of how well Anthem does, but before being able to do so, Anthem has to do extremely well and meake EA bucketloads of money? And follow-up conundrum: Now free, Bioware may focus again on single-player RPG's with fantastic story and characters and relationships, but can only focus on producing one game at a time (it does a CDPR), and chooses Anthem as it's core product. Thoughts Bioware is EA. Divisions dont go rogue and buy themselves out.
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Post by saandrig on Jan 21, 2019 8:39:13 GMT
About the Demo Bio confirmed that they focused on the visuals at the expense of frame rates. I mean, what did he mean by his suggestion that "his team may revisit the latter " ?
Visuals over frame rate for a demo? Was it a conscious decision or is Bio short on game bug squashing time?
I get the feeling that the gold version of the game will be set at 30fps... period.
You almost gave me a heart attack until I figured this applies to consoles only (right?). I am not going to be a happy Freelancer unless things explode in 1440p Ultra and minimum 60FPS. I am looking forward to tinkering with the settings to see what I can tone down for even more FPS and unnoticable graphic downgrade. Betting on AA, Shadows, AO, draw distance and such.
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Post by Gileadan on Jan 21, 2019 8:40:29 GMT
A morally grey conundrum popped up in my mind, which I believe belongs in the skepticism thread. BioWare is able to buy it's freedom (it does a Bungie) because of how well Anthem does, but before being able to do so, Anthem has to do extremely well and meake EA bucketloads of money? And follow-up conundrum: Now free, Bioware may focus again on single-player RPG's with fantastic story and characters and relationships, but can only focus on producing one game at a time (it does a CDPR), and chooses Anthem as it's core product. Thoughts Bungie bought themselves an early exit from the 10 year publishing deal they had with Activision. They were never owned by Activision, and they retain the rights to their IPs developed during that time.
BioWare is EA and cannot buy its freedom, just like any given company's marketing department cannot buy its freedom. The only road to a free BioWare is all the key employees quitting and forming a new, independent company of their own. But EA would retain the rights to all their IPs and the name BioWare, as well as all the profits made from Anthem of course, so that new studio would have to start completely from scratch, without any funding, and would probably have to struggle to its feet via crowdfunded projects - or by finding another publisher/investor.
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Post by lennybusker on Jan 21, 2019 11:03:44 GMT
About the Demo Bio confirmed that they focused on the visuals at the expense of frame rates. I mean, what did he mean by his suggestion that "his team may revisit the latter " ?
Visuals over frame rate for a demo? Was it a conscious decision or is Bio short on game bug squashing time?
I get the feeling that the gold version of the game will be set at 30fps... period.
The 30 fps statement applied to the full game AFAIK. Though I didn't spend too much time parsing it as I'll be running 144 fps regardless
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Post by saandrig on Jan 21, 2019 11:49:55 GMT
About the Demo Bio confirmed that they focused on the visuals at the expense of frame rates. I mean, what did he mean by his suggestion that "his team may revisit the latter " ?
Visuals over frame rate for a demo? Was it a conscious decision or is Bio short on game bug squashing time?
I get the feeling that the gold version of the game will be set at 30fps... period.
The 30 fps statement applied to the full game AFAIK. Though I didn't spend too much time parsing it as I'll be running 144 fps regardless Are those 144 FPS going to be on 1080p or your desktop PC is Skynet in disquise? 😁 Because for me MEA has trouble reaching 140 FPS in 1440p/Ultra and generally runs in 100-120 with some maps at 80-100. And my hardware is on the top end. Knowing Bioware's track record in engine optimization I doubt I will squeeze more than 90 FPS in Anthem (stable probably around 80ish) with the same settings, especially since Anthem has also higher PC requirements.
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Post by lennybusker on Jan 21, 2019 12:04:06 GMT
The 30 fps statement applied to the full game AFAIK. Though I didn't spend too much time parsing it as I'll be running 144 fps regardless Are those 144 FPS going to be on 1080p or your desktop PC is Skynet in disquise? 😁 Because for me MEA has trouble reaching 140 FPS in 1440p/Ultra and generally runs in 100-120 with some maps at 80-100. And my hardware is on the top end. Knowing Bioware's track record in engine optimization I doubt I will squeeze more than 90 FPS in Anthem (stable probably around 80ish) with the same settings, especially since Anthem has also higher PC requirements. True, in high intensity games 120 or less is more likely as I'm running at 2560X1440. But then I usually end up turning things slightly down from Ultra to keep fps stable. My processor is a couple gens old at this point but I'm running a 1080Ti so as long as I'm not putting on stupid shit like 8x AA keeping 120+ is usually not an issue.
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Post by majesticjazz on Jan 21, 2019 16:31:36 GMT
My biggest skepticism towards Anthem is its GaaS approach. A lot of people are being gullible because EAware said there would only be cosmetic mtxs, no loot boxes and no season pass. However they forget that this is a GaaS and for a GaaS to remain profitable, it must have a steady stream if revenue post launch.
Just wait until those good looking cosmetic items that you want requires a long grind just to obtain ingame which is done on purpose in order to entice you to buy it with real cash....
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Post by monkeylungs on Jan 21, 2019 16:53:04 GMT
My biggest skepticism towards Anthem is its GaaS approach. A lot of people are being gullible because EAware said there would only be cosmetic mtxs, no loot boxes and no season pass. However they forget that this is a GaaS and for a GaaS to remain profitable, it must have a steady stream if revenue post launch. Just wait until those good looking cosmetic items that you want requires a long grind just to obtain ingame which is done on purpose in order to entice you to buy it with real cash.... I'm guessing that is exactly how it will be, and I liked your post, but I don't entirely view that with skepticism ... I am not against microtransactions as long as they are not gambling. I am not against gambling in games either as long as said games containing gambling are regulated by gambling laws. If people want to sell something and they show the price up front along with the item they are selling I think it is fair game in a free society. If the items are too expensive and nobody buys them, prices will have to adjust.
The real skeptic in me wonders what if the cosmetics just don't sell enough. The other part of that inner skeptic wonders how sparse the options for people who don't want to spend any additional money will be.
At this point the cosmetics need to be pretty cool to encourage people to buy them and the drop rates for obtaining them in game are going to have to be quite small as well, again, in order to encourage people to buy them. I think this is inevitable.
I'm not sure you can buy an EA product and not at least understand this is how they do things.
The up side here is that, hopefully, the continued (allegedly free) updates and expansions to the game will be worth having the in game store and a potentially grindy/manipulative cosmetic upgrade system.
Personally I would just prefer paid expansions but that model does not make nearly as much money and the reality is even if there were paid expansions we would have an in game store as well.
If you are buying EA you probably are not avoiding this kind of stuff. I expect Dragon Age to have an in game store for single player items as well as an in game store for their multiplayer aspect of the game as well.
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Post by OdanUrr on Jan 21, 2019 17:13:57 GMT
Cosmetic MTXs are the most likely culprit, coupled with inordinate amounts of grinding to unlock through normal gameplay. Still, I prefer them to be upfront about any transaction as opposed to RNG loot crates. I think I mentioned somewhere else that Ubisoft is doing something similar with its Helix Store and Oikos the Olympian.
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Post by Terminator Force on Jan 21, 2019 18:31:25 GMT
Skepticism thread? Thought we were all good indoctrinated folk.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Jan 21, 2019 20:48:47 GMT
My biggest skepticism towards Anthem is its GaaS approach. A lot of people are being gullible because EAware said there would only be cosmetic mtxs, no loot boxes and no season pass. However they forget that this is a GaaS and for a GaaS to remain profitable, it must have a steady stream if revenue post launch. Just wait until those good looking cosmetic items that you want requires a long grind just to obtain ingame which is done on purpose in order to entice you to buy it with real cash.... You think most people don't realize that? The crux will be what constitutes "long." And, upside of being a live service, they could tweak the definition of "long" either way. True, if not enough people are buying because they are grinding the most popular items, they could tweak the grind to make it longer or reduce the frequency of drops, but that cuts the other way too. If not enough people are getting things through grind and the negativity and complaints get to be detrimental to the whole business, they could shorten the grind. Personally, I don't get the mtx mentality at all. Seems like a crazy way to make money, but shrug, Fortnite. I've been playing Fallout Shelter on and off since it was first launched, never been tempted to buy an mtx. Happy to grind out everything, even if it takes calendar weeks or months, since I play it casually anyway, while waiting in an airport or whatever.
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Post by majesticjazz on Jan 21, 2019 20:59:56 GMT
The real skeptic in me wonders what if the cosmetics just don't sell enough. Exactly and if that happens, I wonder how patient EA will remain. Again, a GaaS needs continuous flow of revenue....but if that revenue isnt coming in at the rate and depth as EA wants....then what happens?
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Post by majesticjazz on Jan 21, 2019 21:29:35 GMT
My biggest skepticism towards Anthem is its GaaS approach. A lot of people are being gullible because EAware said there would only be cosmetic mtxs, no loot boxes and no season pass. However they forget that this is a GaaS and for a GaaS to remain profitable, it must have a steady stream if revenue post launch. Just wait until those good looking cosmetic items that you want requires a long grind just to obtain ingame which is done on purpose in order to entice you to buy it with real cash.... You think most people don't realize that? The crux will be what constitutes "long." And, upside of being a live service, they could tweak the definition of "long" either way. True, if not enough people are buying because they are grinding the most popular items, they could tweak the grind to make it longer or reduce the frequency of drops, but that cuts the other way too. If not enough people are getting things through grind and the negativity and complaints get to be detrimental to the whole business, they could shorten the grind. Personally, I don't get the mtx mentality at all. Seems like a crazy way to make money, but shrug, Fortnite. I've been playing Fallout Shelter on and off since it was first launched, never been tempted to buy an mtx. Happy to grind out everything, even if it takes calendar weeks or months, since I play it casually anyway, while waiting in an airport or whatever. From those who are overtly optimistic about Anthems MTX approach....no....I dont believe most people get that. Twist it any way you want but a GaaS at its core is not player first/friendly but rather publisher/revenue first. Bluntly said, the grind for cosmetic items will be so painful that players will feel obligated to purchase them with real money. It is done that way on purpose because if cosmetic items were easy/reasonable to obtain ingame....then what would be the reason to buy them with real money? Which then leads to the whole GaaS concept for Anthem being irrelevant as EA isnt making a substantial stream of revenue through MTXs. If EAware/Anthen was truely player first, then there would be not MTXs and all items could be obtained through light to moderate grinds. You underestimate EA and how clever they are. Even without lootboxes or a season pass....revenue finds a way and they will make sure that Anthem is profitable post launch. They come fall 2019, they need to be able to tell their shareholders that Anthem in the previous qtr brought in X amount of millions of $$$ through the GaaS approach. EA knows what they are doing and I am not falling for it.
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Post by monkeylungs on Jan 22, 2019 2:37:33 GMT
If EAware/Anthen was truely player first, then there would be not MTXs and all items could be obtained through light to moderate grinds. How would they continue to update and add to the game with free content updates and DLC without the MTX's?
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Post by seekerofpower on Jan 22, 2019 5:07:07 GMT
So by that definition the public demo is not a release, because you didn’t pay for it. And, the public demo ain’t even the full game and what parts it shares with the full game will be older. Don't play dumb, how would it not be released if it already has been released? The matter of trying to apply social pressure to buy or making buyers feel second rate for buying late with staggered release windows is a completely different thing. A demo is not a release. It is a slice of the game. This demo is only a few missions in the middle of the game and runs from level 10-15. You won’t be downloading the full game. In fact the demo download can’t even be patched into the full game, as it is an old build. Calling a demo a release is rediculous. Staggered releases are like early access, which this is not. No progress from the demo carries to the main game.
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Post by akots on Jan 22, 2019 6:07:33 GMT
How would they continue to update and add to the game with free content updates and DLC without the MTX's?
Destiny made around a billion USD in revenue up to 2017 from 2014. You can pocket all that. You have an option to invest part of that into the development of some other game. Or you can invest part of that into improving and expanding your current game. If it is good and is getting better with every update, you can get a lot of new buyers. There is no need for MTX if the revenue is good and publicity of MTX is bad. PtW schemes won't bring a lot of new buyers especially if the game is not very good and is not improved by adding free content.
Now, a billion USD is quite a lot of money and Anthem is unlikely to hit that but you never know, it might be possible. It might still beat Black Ops 4, which actually hit the billion mark.
It all depends on how greedy you are and what you really want to do with that money.
It seems that MTX average about a quarter of the total revenue. These are very average numbers though and the actual figures may vary wildly from game to game. It seems that GTA V had higher revenue from MTX than from actual title sales.
Free to play Waframe operates on a much smaller scale compared to CoD but it does work quite well.
Witcher 3 got not that much (something in the range of 300+ million USD). However, this is still quite a lot of money. And it still sells, money is coming in.
Now, one can argue a lot about this stuff. However, MTX are not actually needed for anything. In plain English, it is extra cash grab which sometimes works and sometimes does not. It did not end well for Battlefront 2. This is a big risk. I'm sure some EA executive have calculated everything. You can trust them with that.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2019 15:11:12 GMT
You seem to be conflating revenue with profit. Revenue is not the same as profit … so no, you most certainly cannot "pocket all that." For example, in 2018, EA's total revenue was almost $5.2B, but their profit was only a bit over $1B.
EA's $1B profit is certainly a lot, but that is for all of EA and represents about 20% of their revenue.
Assuming a similar profit to revenue ratio for Destiny, a game that brings in $1B in revenue would yield perhaps $0.2B in profit for the parent company. Using your example, if mtx is 25% of revenue and profit is 20% of revenue, without mtx, they would have had negative profit. That's called a loss.
But that ratio is almost worthless, because the total revenue has to cover things like R&D, cost of operations, costs of selling the games across the parent company each year (not spread over four years) … so unless you look at their balance sheet for each year (I'm way to lazy to do that, but you can as they say, look it up), you really don't know what "profit" is available any given year. And you don't know whether mtx is a major factor in whether a game yields a profit or a loss.
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Post by lennybusker on Jan 22, 2019 15:21:30 GMT
You seem to be conflating revenue with profit. Revenue is not the same as profit … so no, you most certainly cannot "pocket all that." For example, in 2018, EA's total revenue was almost $5.2B, but their profit was only a bit over $1B. EA's $1B profit is certainly a lot, but that is for all of EA and represents about 20% of their revenue. Assuming a similar profit to revenue ratio for Destiny, a game that brings in $1B in revenue would yield perhaps $0.2B in profit for the parent company. Using your example, if mtx is 25% of revenue and profit is 20% of revenue, without mtx, they would have had negative profit. That's called a loss. But that ratio is almost worthless, because the total revenue has to cover things like R&D, cost of operations, costs of selling the games across the parent company each year (not spread over four years) … so unless you look at their balance sheet for each year (I'm way to lazy to do that, but you can as they say, look it up), you really don't know what "profit" is available any given year. And you don't know whether mtx is a major factor in whether a game yields a profit or a loss. Where are you getting that EA's FY2018 gross profit was only 20% of net revenue? I'm seeing more like 75%. news.ea.com/press-release/company-news/electronic-arts-reports-q4-fy18-and-full-year-fy18-financial-resultsI mean, 20% sounds wildly insane, investors would balk at a company in this industry with 80% overhead.
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Post by Pounce de León on Jan 22, 2019 15:32:27 GMT
You seem to be conflating revenue with profit. Revenue is not the same as profit … so no, you most certainly cannot "pocket all that." For example, in 2018, EA's total revenue was almost $5.2B, but their profit was only a bit over $1B. EA's $1B profit is certainly a lot, but that is for all of EA and represents about 20% of their revenue. Assuming a similar profit to revenue ratio for Destiny, a game that brings in $1B in revenue would yield perhaps $0.2B in profit for the parent company. Using your example, if mtx is 25% of revenue and profit is 20% of revenue, without mtx, they would have had negative profit. That's called a loss. But that ratio is almost worthless, because the total revenue has to cover things like R&D, cost of operations, costs of selling the games across the parent company each year (not spread over four years) … so unless you look at their balance sheet for each year (I'm way to lazy to do that, but you can as they say, look it up), you really don't know what "profit" is available any given year. And you don't know whether mtx is a major factor in whether a game yields a profit or a loss. Where are you getting that EA's FY2018 gross profit was only 20% of net revenue? I'm seeing more like 75%. news.ea.com/press-release/company-news/electronic-arts-reports-q4-fy18-and-full-year-fy18-financial-resultsI mean, 20% sounds wildly insane, investors would balk at a company in this industry with 80% overhead. Gross profit margin is 85%, Operating Income margin is 48%. Net income / revenue is 38% for the three months. For year it's 75%, 28%, 20%. Pretty strong last quarter I'd say.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2019 15:40:08 GMT
All this is publicly available … not just for EA, but any publicly traded company in the US.
EA does not pay a dividend. EA stock is mostly held by institutional investors (such as mutual funds). EA investors only realize profits when they sell the stock for more than they paid for it. Until they sell the stock, all they have is unrealized profits or losses.
EA 2018 Annual Report
Gross profit is not the same as net profit. You have to subtract operating expenses and taxes. Once you do that, you are left with a net of ~$1B … which is about 20% of revenue.
Again, you can't "pocket all that" with respect to either revenue or gross profit … the only thing you can pocket, is the net profit.
I use annual reports, because numbers can swing pretty wildly from quarter to quarter. Aggregating four quarters tends to give a better picture … five year trends better still.
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Post by Pounce de León on Jan 22, 2019 16:11:33 GMT
All this is publicly available … not just for EA, but any publicly traded company in the US.
EA does not pay a dividend. EA stock is mostly held by institutional investors (such as mutual funds). EA investors only realize profits when they sell the stock for more than they paid for it. Until they sell the stock, all they have is unrealized profits or losses.
EA 2018 Annual Report
Gross profit is not the same as net profit. You have to subtract operating expenses and taxes. Once you do that, you are left with a net of ~$1B … which is about 20% of revenue.
Again, you can't "pocket all that" with respect to either revenue or gross profit … the only thing you can pocket, is the net profit.
I use annual reports, because numbers can swing pretty wildly from quarter to quarter. Aggregating four quarters tends to give a better picture … five year trends better still. To be fair, most look at the operating income because taxes can vary quite. For comparing to industry peers.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2019 18:13:06 GMT
Taxes were $0.4B in 2018. That's a lot of money, but pales in comparison to the operating costs.
So if you want to add taxes back in ... net profit + taxes = ~$1.4B … or about 27% of gross revenue … which is a whole lot less than 85%.
Regardless, you still have to pay the taxes, so the "pocket all that" number still comes down to net … about 20% in 2018.
I expect the 2019 annual report to be published early May … it might be worth comparing EA's numbers across 2016 - 2019. Their net profit peaked in 2016, dropped in 2017, recovered somewhat in 2018, but still lagged 2016. Revenue increased each year, but so did expenses. I'm curious to see if the net in 2019 beats 2016 … that could certainly happen with the changes to US tax law.
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Post by akots on Jan 22, 2019 22:33:44 GMT
You seem to be conflating revenue with profit. ... Well, EA has no substantial debt. Indeed, technically, if they pocket all revenue, they go out of business. But it is possible. Operating cost is a figure defined by the current expenses and not some prior expenses. Again technically speaking, you probably implied not profit per se but so-called Net profit which equals net sales – cost of goods sold – operating expense – taxes – interest. So, Net profit is defined by a number of variables including operating expenses and is by no means of any relevance to revenue. The company can make any Net profit by reducing operating expenses at any time point. Any company can generate profit for some short period of time simply by firing half of the personnel and shutting doing half of their current production. This does not mean that the company is doing well. This will just decrease the revenue in the long run. However, the company has to be doing well to have good and stable revenue numbers.
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