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Post by Terminator Force on Feb 9, 2019 11:37:55 GMT
Of course, all the more reason to be merrier in anticipation of full game. You missed the point. It was labled and marketed as DEMO but yet acted like a BETA. Demo = Representative of the the final product and in many cases....IS the final product....just condensed. Beta = NOT representative of the final product. Meant to tesd/stress certain systems. Conclusion = Either A, EA lied about it being a bets in a marketing attempt to show players that they are confident in the product by calling it a demo Or B, it was a demo and was representative of the final product. Which one is it folks? And you missed my point, to look on the bright side of it.
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Post by dropzofcrimzon on Feb 9, 2019 12:09:15 GMT
You missed the point. It was labled and marketed as DEMO but yet acted like a BETA. Demo = Representative of the the final product and in many cases....IS the final product....just condensed. Beta = NOT representative of the final product. Meant to tesd/stress certain systems. Conclusion = Either A, EA lied about it being a bets in a marketing attempt to show players that they are confident in the product by calling it a demo Or B, it was a demo and was representative of the final product. Which one is it folks? And you missed my point, to look on the bright side of it. and you missed the fact that this is the skepticism thread
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Post by Terminator Force on Feb 9, 2019 12:10:32 GMT
And you missed my point, to look on the bright side of it. and you missed the fact that this is the skepticism thread Didn't say "echo chamber" skepticism thread. Nothing wrong with some valid counterarguments to refine arguments.
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Post by dropzofcrimzon on Feb 9, 2019 12:22:19 GMT
and you missed the fact that this is the skepticism thread Didn't say "echo chamber" skepticism thread. Nothing wrong with some valid counterarguments to refine arguments. Which you are not giving. This was not a beta both in name or in practice as there is no time to actually, properly, make the modifications needed and then go through certification again. several people pointed that out to you. There is no "look at the bright side of this". There is no argument for it, you just keep repeating it.
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Post by Terminator Force on Feb 9, 2019 12:44:35 GMT
Didn't say "echo chamber" skepticism thread. Nothing wrong with some valid counterarguments to refine arguments. Which you are not giving. This was not a beta both in name or in practice as there is no time to actually, properly, make the modifications needed and then go through certification again. several people pointed that out to you. There is no "look at the bright side of this". There is no argument for it, you just keep repeating it. I'll assume you meant to say demo. And to that I'll reply; Have you played the beta, demo and final game to draw any direct comparisons?
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Post by dropzofcrimzon on Feb 9, 2019 12:53:06 GMT
Which you are not giving. This was not a beta both in name or in practice as there is no time to actually, properly, make the modifications needed and then go through certification again. several people pointed that out to you. There is no "look at the bright side of this". There is no argument for it, you just keep repeating it. I'll assume you meant to say demo. And to that I'll reply; Have you played the beta, demo and final game to draw any direct comparisons? I played the demoS, plural, not the beta. The game is not out yet once the game is out comparisons should be made. As of RIGHT NOW the demos as per what they were presented as and as per how close the game is are to be considered representative of the final product thus there is no "look on the bright side" argument.
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Post by Terminator Force on Feb 9, 2019 13:14:40 GMT
I'll assume you meant to say demo. And to that I'll reply; Have you played the beta, demo and final game to draw any direct comparisons? I played the demoS, plural, not the beta. The game is not out yet once the game is out comparisons should be made. As of RIGHT NOW the demos as per what they were presented as and as per how close the game is are to be considered representative of the final product thus there is no "look on the bright side" argument. Oh, so you can't personally make direct comparisons to beta, demo and final game. Can't even know how close demo is representative of final game. Sounds to me like a bunch of wild assertions being blown out of proportion. Suggest we be more careful with these when many jobs at BioWare are at stake.
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Post by Space Cowboy on Feb 9, 2019 15:07:19 GMT
I played the demoS, plural, not the beta. The game is not out yet once the game is out comparisons should be made. As of RIGHT NOW the demos as per what they were presented as and as per how close the game is are to be considered representative of the final product thus there is no "look on the bright side" argument. Oh, so you can't personally make direct comparisons to beta, demo and final game. Can't even know how close demo is representative of final game. Sounds to me like a bunch of wild assertions being blown out of proportion. Suggest we be more careful with these when many jobs at BioWare are at stake. An "As a Game Dev" article expanded on this topic.
We, on this message board, have no way at all to personally affect what will happen to Bioware or anthem. To do that, we'd need to affect purchasing trends across the industry. Not going to happen.
No matter what we do or dont do here, the effect on Bioware will be negligible.
So no sense in warnings about Bioware jobs as if we had any ability to make a difference.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by monkeylungs on Feb 9, 2019 15:10:07 GMT
I played the demoS, plural, not the beta. The game is not out yet once the game is out comparisons should be made. As of RIGHT NOW the demos as per what they were presented as and as per how close the game is are to be considered representative of the final product thus there is no "look on the bright side" argument. Oh, so you can't personally make direct comparisons to beta, demo and final game. Can't even know how close demo is representative of final game. Sounds to me like a bunch of wild assertions being blown out of proportion. Suggest we be more careful with these when many jobs at BioWare are at stake. The demo is supposed to give a demonstration of the product they want to sell. The demo started out as an outright technical mess and progressed to slightly less of a technical mess, not even being able to hold a steady frame rate on PS4 Pro or Xbox 1X, not to mention the abysmal frame rate on the PS4 and Xbox One. This doesn't even take into account the many other technical problems the demonstrations presented. My own experience has the two demos failing almost 50% of the time ... failing to even function properly.
Some fans made an informed decision about the full game based on their experience with the demonstrations.
Other fans say this is jumping to conclusions, and a better source of evidence as to the state of the game is developers word, and the feedback from people playing a more recent build on special gaming pc's on closed networks.
Which one sounds like a wild assertion to you?
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Post by dropzofcrimzon on Feb 9, 2019 15:13:20 GMT
I played the demoS, plural, not the beta. The game is not out yet once the game is out comparisons should be made. As of RIGHT NOW the demos as per what they were presented as and as per how close the game is are to be considered representative of the final product thus there is no "look on the bright side" argument. Oh, so you can't personally make direct comparisons to beta, demo and final game. Can't even know how close demo is representative of final game. Sounds to me like a bunch of wild assertions being blown out of proportion. Suggest we be more careful with these when many jobs at BioWare are at stake. nope, could not care less, I have no stock in EA or Bioware, I am not paid by them. I am a consumer, I vote with my wallet and it is their job to get me to buy their product. So no, I do not care about jobs at Bioware. Not in relation to product quality and success at least. Now, with that being said, my assertion is based on past experience thus it is not a speculation but an actual educated guess given what many MANY companies have done before in the exact same situation. These are not overblown at all as there are SEVERAL precedents to actually be worried that this might be almost exactly what we get at launch. Furthermore we DO have confirmation that at launch a LOT of things Bioware fans wanted will not be included and you can look up the list yourself just by checking the other pages. Now the same argument can be leveled against you, you, de facto, have no idea what if anything will be fixed from now to the final released build of the game, on top of the fact that in recent years there are almost no precedents of huge game changing improvements from demos (or even betas) to final product. Such fixes, if they come, come much later after release and as I already posted before I open to wait and see if BiowEAre does include some of my deal breaker features. Until then, if bioware and EA keep pushing the shared world shooter looter middle-finger to the core fanbase model my hope is for a full failure of the game that will make FO76 look like a walk in the park as that is the ONLY language EA comprehends. Failure is part of learning, and EA is in desperate need of learning a thing or two.
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Post by lennybusker on Feb 9, 2019 15:17:43 GMT
A friend of mine convinced me that I should finally check out Titanfall 2's solo campaign since I was really impressed by the production design of Apex Legends (battle royale PVP is super not my jam though). I realized that I could just sign up for a month of Access Premiere for the same price as TF2, and I'd get to play that as well as see Anthem first hand without actually buying it. I don't like the whole subscription game service but in this case I'd rather do that for a month then count as another actual sale of Anthem which doesn't deserve the buy at this point. The incredible production design and polish of Apex which has only been in development for a couple years puts the jalopy of the Anthem demo (5-7 years in development) to shame. Playing Apex just made me more and more pissed off about Anthem.
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Post by Space Cowboy on Feb 9, 2019 15:25:33 GMT
A friend of mine convinced me that I should finally check out Titanfall 2's solo campaign since I was really impressed by the production design of Apex Legends (battle royale PVP is super not my jam though). I realized that I could just sign up for a month of Access Premiere for the same price as TF2, and I'd get to play that as well as see Anthem first hand without actually buying it. I don't like the whole subscription game service but in this case I'd rather do that for a month then count as another actual sale of Anthem which doesn't deserve the buy at this point. The incredible production design and polish of Apex which has only been in development for a couple years puts the jalopy of the Anthem demo (5-7 years in development) to shame. Playing Apex just made me more and more pissed off about Anthem. I may do that at some point too, but well after launch. I have no pressing desire to play it, nor do I have that much time.
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Post by PillarBiter on Feb 9, 2019 15:32:12 GMT
And you missed my point, to look on the bright side of it. and you missed the fact that this is the skepticism thread And you missed the fact about his factmissing missing a fact.
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Post by Terminator Force on Feb 9, 2019 15:33:57 GMT
Oh, so you can't personally make direct comparisons to beta, demo and final game. Can't even know how close demo is representative of final game. Sounds to me like a bunch of wild assertions being blown out of proportion. Suggest we be more careful with these when many jobs at BioWare are at stake. nope, could not care less, I have no stock in EA or Bioware, I am not paid by them. I am a consumer, I vote with my wallet and it is their job to get me to buy their product. So no, I do not care about jobs at Bioware. Not in relation to product quality and success at least. Now, with that being said, my assertion is based on past experience thus it is not a speculation but an actual educated guess given what many MANY companies have done before in the exact same situation. These are not overblown at all as there are SEVERAL precedents to actually be worried that this might be almost exactly what we get at launch. Furthermore we DO have confirmation that at launch a LOT of things Bioware fans wanted will not be included and you can look up the list yourself just by checking the other pages. Now the same argument can be leveled against you, you, de facto, have no idea what if anything will be fixed from now to the final released build of the game, on top of the fact that in recent years there are almost no precedents of huge game changing improvements from demos (or even betas) to final product. Such fixes, if they come, come much later after release and as I already posted before I open to wait and see if BiowEAre does include some of my deal breaker features. Until then, if bioware and EA keep pushing the shared world shooter looter middle-finger to the core fanbase model my hope is for a full failure of the game that will make FO76 look like a walk in the park as that is the ONLY language EA comprehends. Failure is part of learning, and EA is in desperate need of learning a thing or two. The old scattergun approach. Can we just focus on one point?
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Post by shinobiwan on Feb 9, 2019 16:10:26 GMT
I played the demoS, plural, not the beta. The game is not out yet once the game is out comparisons should be made. As of RIGHT NOW the demos as per what they were presented as and as per how close the game is are to be considered representative of the final product thus there is no "look on the bright side" argument. Oh, so you can't personally make direct comparisons to beta, demo and final game. Can't even know how close demo is representative of final game. Sounds to me like a bunch of wild assertions being blown out of proportion. Suggest we be more careful with these when many jobs at BioWare are at stake. Ahh yes, the old "you're not allowed to determine whether to buy a game until you've already bought it and played through it" argument. We have dismissed that claim.
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Post by majesticjazz on Feb 9, 2019 16:20:43 GMT
You missed the point. It was labled and marketed as DEMO but yet acted like a BETA. Demo = Representative of the the final product and in many cases....IS the final product....just condensed. Beta = NOT representative of the final product. Meant to tesd/stress certain systems. Conclusion = Either A, EA lied about it being a bets in a marketing attempt to show players that they are confident in the product by calling it a demo Or B, it was a demo and was representative of the final product. Which one is it folks? And you missed my point, to look on the bright side of it. As a consumer if ANY product, if the maker gives me a demo which is supposed to be representative of the final product and said demo looks more like a WIP product....then what puprose did the demo serve. Why should the consumer feel confident enough in the final product? Furthermore, why should the consumer value and trust the products maker in the first place? No, there is no looking on the bright side. What was shown was representative of the final product and should be treated as such. If it was not representative of the final product (i.e. the final product could be improved) then EA yet again lied to their consumers by calling this a demo and not for what it was which was a beta build.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2019 16:37:34 GMT
I played the demoS, plural, not the beta. The game is not out yet once the game is out comparisons should be made. As of RIGHT NOW the demos as per what they were presented as and as per how close the game is are to be considered representative of the final product thus there is no "look on the bright side" argument. Oh, so you can't personally make direct comparisons to beta, demo and final game. Can't even know how close demo is representative of final game. Sounds to me like a bunch of wild assertions being blown out of proportion. Suggest we be more careful with these when many jobs at BioWare are at stake. That is true obviously, but if we use this ad hoc standard of evidence you just erected, everything said in this entirely subforum is just a bunch of wild assertions. You cannot test or verify how representative claims in the Twitter or hype threads are of the final product either, by direct comparision. This type of tactical skepticism is dishonest and unproductive, unless universally applied. I surprised that I have say any of this aloud, or we should all start to add disclaimers at the end of every claim, that this is may or may not apply to the final product, as it's not yet empirically verified by direct comparison to hypothetical final product. How far this line of thought should be taken. I mean, it's not like 100 % sure that there will be a released game end of this month. A hijacked airliner could strike BW's studio headquarters tomorrow at 3 pm, should we add disclaimers that there's some minuscule unquantifiable percent that there won't even be a game, as we cannot truly rule it out totally, so how about nobody preorders anything until we know what's going on. I am flabbergasted at what you are trying to say with that jobs at stake comment . There are tens of thousands of game devs, and hundreds of companies whom jobs are also in the line constantly, if we apply this standard equally. It's true that what is being said in this forum can influence consumer behavior of users of this site, but this applies to every other game devs as well. This forum has a finite number of users, whom have a finite amount of resources and even smaller amount, which allocated to video games. If you overhype and incite people towards Anthem mania, that's like taking food out of indie devs mouths, because they might preorder Anthem instead of buying Minecraft Dungeons, thus jobs and livelihoods are in line! (money which is spent on Anthem cannot be spent on other games). I see no good reason to privilege BW devs over every other dev on this planet, despite my or anybody's preferences. There shouldn't be problems, as long as everybody understand that everything said in this forum is somewhat speculative and subjective, and they individually are responsible of evaluating it by whatever standards they desire. If there's some particular claim you feel is false or misleading, argue against it, and let others decide themselves whether they feel its justified or not. Overreaching blanket denunciations are ridiculous in this context.
In any hypothetical market model (or real one to that matter) it's vital for an entire system, that there's a flow of information evaluating products in a market between all participants. It works very poorly, if we are only allowed to absorb and echo marketing information coming from producers, without appraising and adding value judgements ourselves. Sometimes ofc there are "false" statements going around (by whatever definitions of falsehood one wants to use), but these can work just as easily for devs as against them. There are constant stream of unfounded yet positive rumors, half truths and baseless optimism around this forum, which is almost categorically accepted and even applauded, but rarely challenged in grounds that they are speculative and unverifiable. Yet nobody espouses or demands any systemic standard of proof for hyping or positive estimations of Anthem (not that I would like impose something like that. E.g. nobody really knows for sure, whether any bugs or problems present in the "demo" will be fixed, or whether the game will be any good, and so on. There are some probabilistic estimations based on past performance or current statements of devs, and we can endlessly argue how reliable those are. In logical-deductive sense its all speculation, negative or positive).
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Post by General Mahad on Feb 9, 2019 16:38:45 GMT
The Anthem demo's Amazing Spins and Moonwalks Enough bugs to make Bethesda blush.
Wait, I mean BioWare Montreal.
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Post by Terminator Force on Feb 9, 2019 16:43:24 GMT
And you missed my point, to look on the bright side of it. As a consumer if ANY product, if the maker gives me a demo which is supposed to be representative of the final product and said demo looks more like a WIP product....then what puprose did the demo serve. Why should the consumer feel confident enough in the final product? Furthermore, why should the consumer value and trust the products maker in the first place? No, there is no looking on the bright side. What was shown was representative of the final product and should be treated as such. If it was not representative of the final product (i.e. the final product could be improved) then EA yet again lied to their consumers by calling this a demo and not for what it was which was a beta build. So you're argument is if demo is representative of final product or not. With if it is, then you feel ripped off. And if it isn't, you still feel ripped off with no bright side to any of this. Whereas my argument is the demo gave me enough insight to discern it's potential and that if the demo isn't representative of the final product, then great because final product will be better. Hence my initial bright side remark.
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Post by Terminator Force on Feb 9, 2019 16:53:20 GMT
Oh, so you can't personally make direct comparisons to beta, demo and final game. Can't even know how close demo is representative of final game. Sounds to me like a bunch of wild assertions being blown out of proportion. Suggest we be more careful with these when many jobs at BioWare are at stake. That is true obviously, but if we use this ad hoc standard of evidence you just erected, everything said in this entirely subforum is just a bunch of wild assertions. You cannot test or verify how representative claims in the Twitter or hype threads are of the final product either, by direct comparision. This type of tactical skepticism is dishonest and unproductive, unless universally applied. I surprised that I have say any of this aloud, or we should all start to add disclaimers at the end of every claim, that this is may or may not apply to the final product, as it's not yet empirically verified by direct comparison to hypothetical final product. How far this line of thought should be taken. I mean, it's not like 100 % sure that there will be a released game end of this month. A hijacked airliner could strike BW's studio headquarters tomorrow at 3 pm, should we add disclaimers that there's some minuscule unquantifiable percent that there won't even be a game, as we cannot truly rule it out totally, so how about nobody preorders anything until we know what's going on. I am flabbergasted at what you are trying to say with that jobs at stake comment . There are tens of thousands of game devs, and hundreds of companies whom jobs are also in the line constantly, if we apply this standard equally. It's true that what is being said in this forum can influence consumer behavior of users of this site, but this applies to every other game devs as well. This forum has a finite number of users, whom have a finite amount of resources and even smaller amount, which allocated to video games. If you overhype and incite people towards Anthem mania, that's like taking food out of indie devs mouths, because they might preorder Anthem instead of buying Minecraft Dungeons, thus jobs and livelihoods are in line! (money which is spent on Anthem cannot be spent on other games). I see no good reason to privilege BW devs over every other dev on this planet, despite my or anybody's preferences. There shouldn't be problems, as long as everybody understand that everything said in this forum is somewhat speculative and subjective, and they individually are responsible of evaluating it by whatever standards they desire. If there's some particular claim you feel is false or misleading, argue against it, and let others decide themselves whether they feel its justified or not. Overreaching blanket denunciations are ridiculous in this context.
In any hypothetical market model (or real one to that matter) it's vital for an entire system, that there's a flow of information evaluating products in a market between all participants. It works very poorly, if we are only allowed to absorb and echo marketing information coming from producers, without appraising and adding value judgements ourselves. Sometimes ofc there are "false" statements going around (by whatever definitions of falsehood one wants to use), but these can work just as easily for devs as against them. There are constant stream of unfounded yet positive rumors, half truths and baseless optimism around this forum, which is almost categorically accepted and even applauded, but rarely challenged in grounds that they are speculative and unverifiable. Yet nobody espouses or demands any systemic standard of proof for hyping or positive estimations of Anthem (not that I would like impose something like that. E.g. nobody really knows for sure, whether any bugs or problems present in the "demo" will be fixed, or whether the game will be any good, and so on. There are some probabilistic estimations based on past performance or current statements of devs, and we can endlessly argue how reliable those are. In logical-deductive sense its all speculation, negative or positive).
You're misrepresenting. Only pointed the wild assertions of one person and one post, not entire forum. Well look how fast the explosion of social media buzz affected BioWare Montreal. So can't say our voices don't affect jobs.
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Post by Terminator Force on Feb 9, 2019 16:55:13 GMT
Oh, so you can't personally make direct comparisons to beta, demo and final game. Can't even know how close demo is representative of final game. Sounds to me like a bunch of wild assertions being blown out of proportion. Suggest we be more careful with these when many jobs at BioWare are at stake. Ahh yes, the old "you're not allowed to determine whether to buy a game until you've already bought it and played through it" argument. We have dismissed that claim. Strawman.
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Post by majesticjazz on Feb 9, 2019 17:06:12 GMT
As a consumer if ANY product, if the maker gives me a demo which is supposed to be representative of the final product and said demo looks more like a WIP product....then what puprose did the demo serve. Why should the consumer feel confident enough in the final product? Furthermore, why should the consumer value and trust the products maker in the first place? No, there is no looking on the bright side. What was shown was representative of the final product and should be treated as such. If it was not representative of the final product (i.e. the final product could be improved) then EA yet again lied to their consumers by calling this a demo and not for what it was which was a beta build. So you're argument is if demo is representative of final product or not. With if it is, then you feel ripped off. And if it isn't, you still feel ripped off with no bright side to any of this. Whereas my argument is the demo gave me enough insight to discern it's potential and that if the demo isn't representative of the final product, then great because final product will be better. Hence my initial bright side remark. Sigh....you still do not get it. If the demo is the final build....then how can the final build on 15 Feb be any different? And IF there are any changes, it would not come until weeks after launch in the form of various patches. But weeks after launch is NOT the final product. How can the final product be better....when we were already shown the final product? Where is your logic?
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Post by Terminator Force on Feb 9, 2019 17:12:18 GMT
So you're argument is if demo is representative of final product or not. With if it is, then you feel ripped off. And if it isn't, you still feel ripped off with no bright side to any of this. Whereas my argument is the demo gave me enough insight to discern it's potential and that if the demo isn't representative of the final product, then great because final product will be better. Hence my initial bright side remark. Sigh....you still do not get it. If the demo is the final build....then how can the final build on 15 Feb be any different? And IF there are any changes, it would not come until weeks after launch in the form of various patches. But weeks after launch is NOT the final product. How can the final product be better....when we were already shown the final product? Where is your logic? Misrepresenting. The claim was demo 'representative' of final build, obviously not final build. And if demo is not representative of final build, then my assertion would be enough held back for the final build to impress more.
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Post by dropzofcrimzon on Feb 9, 2019 17:14:47 GMT
nope, could not care less, I have no stock in EA or Bioware, I am not paid by them. I am a consumer, I vote with my wallet and it is their job to get me to buy their product. So no, I do not care about jobs at Bioware. Not in relation to product quality and success at least. Now, with that being said, my assertion is based on past experience thus it is not a speculation but an actual educated guess given what many MANY companies have done before in the exact same situation. These are not overblown at all as there are SEVERAL precedents to actually be worried that this might be almost exactly what we get at launch. Furthermore we DO have confirmation that at launch a LOT of things Bioware fans wanted will not be included and you can look up the list yourself just by checking the other pages. Now the same argument can be leveled against you, you, de facto, have no idea what if anything will be fixed from now to the final released build of the game, on top of the fact that in recent years there are almost no precedents of huge game changing improvements from demos (or even betas) to final product. Such fixes, if they come, come much later after release and as I already posted before I open to wait and see if BiowEAre does include some of my deal breaker features. Until then, if bioware and EA keep pushing the shared world shooter looter middle-finger to the core fanbase model my hope is for a full failure of the game that will make FO76 look like a walk in the park as that is the ONLY language EA comprehends. Failure is part of learning, and EA is in desperate need of learning a thing or two. The old scattergun approach. Can we just focus on one point? more points were brought up and they were addressed, simple as that
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Post by Terminator Force on Feb 9, 2019 17:18:22 GMT
The old scattergun approach. Can we just focus on one point? more points were brought up and they were addressed, simple as that Well just got here and prefer discussing one point at a time.
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