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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Feb 9, 2019 20:57:13 GMT
A friend of mine convinced me that I should finally check out Titanfall 2's solo campaign since I was really impressed by the production design of Apex Legends (battle royale PVP is super not my jam though). I realized that I could just sign up for a month of Access Premiere for the same price as TF2, and I'd get to play that as well as see Anthem first hand without actually buying it. I don't like the whole subscription game service but in this case I'd rather do that for a month then count as another actual sale of Anthem which doesn't deserve the buy at this point. The incredible production design and polish of Apex which has only been in development for a couple years puts the jalopy of the Anthem demo (5-7 years in development) to shame. Playing Apex just made me more and more pissed off about Anthem. Lootboxes aren't an automatic hard pass, wrt Apex? They aren't for me, they got slipped into my MP franchises whether I liked it or not, but not sure where you stand on LBs.
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Post by maximusarael020 on Feb 9, 2019 21:11:22 GMT
A friend of mine convinced me that I should finally check out Titanfall 2's solo campaign since I was really impressed by the production design of Apex Legends (battle royale PVP is super not my jam though). I realized that I could just sign up for a month of Access Premiere for the same price as TF2, and I'd get to play that as well as see Anthem first hand without actually buying it. I don't like the whole subscription game service but in this case I'd rather do that for a month then count as another actual sale of Anthem which doesn't deserve the buy at this point. The incredible production design and polish of Apex which has only been in development for a couple years puts the jalopy of the Anthem demo (5-7 years in development) to shame. Playing Apex just made me more and more pissed off about Anthem. Serious question: are the assets and whatnot from Titanfall 2 reused for Apex? I love Titanfall 2; the movement, the gunplay, the grapple. It's a very underrated game. If a lot of the programming, assets, etc are reused from Titanfall 2, could that explain it's level of polish with shorter development time vs Anthem?
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Feb 9, 2019 21:25:57 GMT
An "As a Game Dev" article expanded on this topic. We, on this message board, have no way at all to personally affect what will happen to Bioware or anthem. To do that, we'd need to affect purchasing trends across the industry. Not going to happen. No matter what we do or dont do here, the effect on Bioware will be negligible. So no sense in warnings about Bioware jobs as if we had any ability to make a difference. With respect to forum posts, of course. But, HOLY FUCK, where was this article when I needed it? There are two key points in there that need to be written large. When AAA single player games have roughly the same budget as open world or multiplayer games but don’t earn as much or reach similar engagement numbers, what do you think the publishers do when it comes to green lighting sequels?They don't. The link to the importance of engagement is also worth a read: askagamedev.tumblr.com/post/166949586732/after-the-news-of-ea-shutting-down-visceralTL;DR of link: "Publishers care about making games with good engagement numbers, because they directly correlate to increased revenue." If players really want to encourage more single player games (that aren’t open world or limited to [console exclusives]), they need to bite the bullet and buy more single player games at launch and then buy their DLC/microtransactions. If it’s clear there’s a market for single player games, the publishers will fund single player games just like they funded MMOGs, MOBAs, music games, action set piece shooters, fighting games, collectible card games, and battle royale games. If the market demand is there, they’ll invest. But that means that players have to be willing to buy what’s already there to show the publishers that they will buy more. Talk is cheap. If you want single player titles, you need to put your money where your mouth is. The link to console exclusives, which seem to be a haven for high quality AAA single player games, is also worth a read: askagamedev.tumblr.com/post/178762195421/why-dont-many-first-party-titles-includeTL;DR of link: between exclusives helping sell more consoles, and third-party cross-platform games on consoles needing to pay Sony/Microsoft a 30% cut, there's less pressure for there to be recurring revenue support on those exclusive games. Which, I infer, also means that they are funded up front to succeed. More risk, to be sure, but when you get a hit like God of War or Horizon Zero Dawn, makes it all seem worth it.
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Post by lennybusker on Feb 9, 2019 22:14:23 GMT
A friend of mine convinced me that I should finally check out Titanfall 2's solo campaign since I was really impressed by the production design of Apex Legends (battle royale PVP is super not my jam though). I realized that I could just sign up for a month of Access Premiere for the same price as TF2, and I'd get to play that as well as see Anthem first hand without actually buying it. I don't like the whole subscription game service but in this case I'd rather do that for a month then count as another actual sale of Anthem which doesn't deserve the buy at this point. The incredible production design and polish of Apex which has only been in development for a couple years puts the jalopy of the Anthem demo (5-7 years in development) to shame. Playing Apex just made me more and more pissed off about Anthem. Serious question: are the assets and whatnot from Titanfall 2 reused for Apex? I love Titanfall 2; the movement, the gunplay, the grapple. It's a very underrated game. If a lot of the programming, assets, etc are reused from Titanfall 2, could that explain it's level of polish with shorter development time vs Anthem? I think some probably are, as I understand it the guns are directly from TF2. But yeah of course since it's somewhat of a sidequel to TF2 the dev time is not as extensive. Still, one of the things I've brought up is that Anthem does not look like it's been 5-7 years in development. How do you spend 7 years on a game and not have a waypointable map? Shit like that. It's kind of embarrassing. A friend of mine convinced me that I should finally check out Titanfall 2's solo campaign since I was really impressed by the production design of Apex Legends (battle royale PVP is super not my jam though). I realized that I could just sign up for a month of Access Premiere for the same price as TF2, and I'd get to play that as well as see Anthem first hand without actually buying it. I don't like the whole subscription game service but in this case I'd rather do that for a month then count as another actual sale of Anthem which doesn't deserve the buy at this point. The incredible production design and polish of Apex which has only been in development for a couple years puts the jalopy of the Anthem demo (5-7 years in development) to shame. Playing Apex just made me more and more pissed off about Anthem. Lootboxes aren't an automatic hard pass, wrt Apex? They aren't for me, they got slipped into my MP franchises whether I liked it or not, but not sure where you stand on LBs. Nah, lootboxes aren't a make or break for me. It's a good fit in Apex Legends since the game is F2P and the MTX are all for cosmetics.
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Post by biggydx on Feb 9, 2019 22:33:08 GMT
I wouldn't think Apex Legends would be as demanding to build as a game like Anthem. It uses the Source Engine, which was also used in Titanfall 2..
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Post by acehilator on Feb 9, 2019 22:33:16 GMT
Nice sentiment regarding SP games, but it doesn't work that way. Chances to release the next Witcher 3 are just too slim, so it's way more bang for your buck to pump out the next part of a MP or sport franchise with minimum investment, spend over 50% of the budget on marketing and reap the rewards from the 12-18 console crowd. Big publishers expect to be rewarded for mediocrity in SP games, so they are surprised when one of their few SP titles does not sell well. ME:A anybody?
I mean Ubisoft recently won back community support for sticking with games like R6 Siege, For Honour and The Division and dragging them back to life instead of abandoning them, but everything they do is still MP-focused. Activision and EA we don't even have to talk about (saying that BFV performed poorly due to the tiny SP part was really impressive). And even the crazy success of TW3 did not trigger a wave of SP releases. Big publishers are risk-adverse, and I don't blame them for that, not in the slightest. It would just be nice if they could stop the non-stop onslaught of marketing buzzwords. "Online features for best gameplay, tailored towards unique player experiences blah blah" - yeah sorry guys, my BS bingo card is full again, and yes I know you want to sell me MTX.
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Post by maximusarael020 on Feb 9, 2019 22:51:12 GMT
How do you spend 7 years on a game and not have a waypointable map? Shit like that. It's kind of embarrassing. Understood, and a fair point. There are a number of Quality of Life things like that that are surprisingly missing. Lack of custom waypoint is one that has vexed me as well. I would also say lack of a "photo mode" as well, as Spiderman PS4 and Shadow of War had obviously shown a desire in the community for something like that (although that's less "necessary" than a waypoint).
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Post by maximusarael020 on Feb 9, 2019 22:55:56 GMT
Nice sentiment regarding SP games, but it doesn't work that way. Chances to release the next Witcher 3 are just too slim, so it's way more bang for your buck to pump out the next part of a MP or sport franchise with minimum investment, spend over 50% of the budget on marketing and reap the rewards from the 12-18 console crowd. I'd also add that investors, which AAA companies need to "please", have shown a preference for steady income vs the peaks and valleys of SP releases. If they can expect good income throughout the year vs a big spike a few times a year, they prefer the former.
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Post by acehilator on Feb 9, 2019 23:38:11 GMT
Yeah, totally forgot that, which is pretty important. Especially with US-based companies the hunt for the next quarter big numbers is highly annoying, from a customer point of view.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2019 23:53:22 GMT
My hope is that all companies … not just "entertainment" companies are able to get the rules/laws changed so that they report semi-annually, instead of quarterly. It hurts more than just video game makers.
Companies have/are moving to apps as services. Office 365 vs a new release every three years. Quicken now has an annual cycle (though I think you can still get one that downloads updates for two years) … instead of a purchase that gives you three years. All in an effort to smooth out the revenue flow.
Other changes … things passed literally decades ago, with the best of intentions (naturally) … have suffered the unintended consequences to an extreme. One is CEO pay … was supposed to align the long-term interests of the company with CEO compensation, instead we ended up with rampant pay inflation. Another, as you mentioned, the unending focus on the next quarter results.
It will be interesting to see what the reorganization of EA looks like, based on the CEO's comments. It would be easy to assume it means bad things … at least for studios like BioWare … but perhaps not. I hope not. I seriously doubt EA will become one of my favorite companies … but it would be nice to have some positive thoughts about them … beyond a few individual divisions, like BioWare. Who knows, they might even improve their tech support (not holding my breath).
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Post by maximusarael020 on Feb 9, 2019 23:56:17 GMT
Yeah, totally forgot that, which is pretty important. Especially with US-based companies the hunt for the next quarter big numbers is highly annoying, from a customer point of view. Yup. I don't know how it is elsewhere. Pretty sure CDPR is at least partially subsidized by their government (and self-owned) so they don't really run into those issues, from what I know.
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Post by acehilator on Feb 10, 2019 0:57:13 GMT
Their stock is doing mighty fine, which proves that going for the long haul can still work. Aside from the Witcher series, GOG was a project long in the making. But I guess buying stock from a company with that mindset runs contrary to the US NOW!NOW!NOW! approach.
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Post by majesticjazz on Feb 10, 2019 4:10:55 GMT
Yeah, totally forgot that, which is pretty important. Especially with US-based companies the hunt for the next quarter big numbers is highly annoying, from a customer point of view. Yup. I don't know how it is elsewhere. Pretty sure CDPR is at least partially subsidized by their government (and self-owned) so they don't really run into those issues, from what I know. No Bioware?
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Post by maximusarael020 on Feb 10, 2019 4:17:27 GMT
Yup. I don't know how it is elsewhere. Pretty sure CDPR is at least partially subsidized by their government (and self-owned) so they don't really run into those issues, from what I know. No Bioware? I..uh... I don't watch random videos people post on forums if they don't include a description of what the video is and why it pertains to the conversation. Grew up during Rick-roll and 2-girls-1-cup. #Neveragain
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Post by majesticjazz on Feb 10, 2019 4:21:10 GMT
I..uh... I don't watch random videos people post on forums if they don't include a description of what the video is and why it pertains to the conversation. Grew up during Rick-roll and 2-girls-1-cup. #Neveragain Lol you watched it
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Post by maximusarael020 on Feb 10, 2019 4:30:05 GMT
I..uh... I don't watch random videos people post on forums if they don't include a description of what the video is and why it pertains to the conversation. Grew up during Rick-roll and 2-girls-1-cup. #Neveragain Lol you watched it Nope! I actually didn't. This is a rule I forum by.
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Post by Arijon van Goyen on Feb 10, 2019 6:34:32 GMT
Dude, it's plain obvious.
"Steam Awards 2019
Best Developer: CD Projekt RED"
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Post by Ieldra on Feb 10, 2019 6:52:22 GMT
Watched a few gameplay videos. Bioware has managed something extraordinary for the first time in 21 years. They made a game which is completely uninteresting to me...
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Post by aglomeracja on Feb 10, 2019 8:24:55 GMT
Yeah, totally forgot that, which is pretty important. Especially with US-based companies the hunt for the next quarter big numbers is highly annoying, from a customer point of view. Yup. I don't know how it is elsewhere. Pretty sure CDPR is at least partially subsidized by their government (and self-owned) so they don't really run into those issues, from what I know. AFAIK they only got one donation 3 years ago (them and some other IT companies) and they also are a joint-stock company (so not exactly self owned, but more than Bioware which is EA's division). They also are their own publisher and that gives them a lot of freedom.
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Post by cloud9 on Feb 10, 2019 9:02:02 GMT
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by saandrig on Feb 10, 2019 10:18:06 GMT
I wouldn't think Apex Legends would be as demanding to build as a game like Anthem. It uses the Source Engine, which was also used in Titanfall 2.. And TF2 looked way better than Anthem or MEA. Subjective, I know. But it shows that sticking to FB is not always the right decision. Or it could be that Respawn has so much better designers.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by saandrig on Feb 10, 2019 10:22:04 GMT
Frankly, this is pretty tame compared to all the editions AC Odyssey had at launch. But we better not give EA any ideas
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2019 10:47:49 GMT
AFAIK they only got one donation 3 years ago (them and some other IT companies) and they also are a joint-stock company (so not exactly self owned, but more than Bioware which is EA's division). They also are their own publisher and that gives them a lot of freedom. Yep, besides when you start to peel off the surface, almost all companies are subsidized by myriad of ways. Larger they get more intertwined they tend to be (I have not seen studies about this, but I bet that relation with a size and gov. subsidies is linear). Most of it is indirect of course (public goods, favorable legislation, tax exempts, local gov. support for real estate and premises, access to credit via monetary policy, etc). Or direct subsidies, which just have not been realized yet (if USA's gaming industry ever runs into a severe trouble, and is in a danger of being displaced by based Poles, you can bet on your lucky stars that USA's gov. will come running with stimulus packets, tax reliefs and bailouts). Speaking of comparative advantages between different gov. influences. If Polish government throws couple złotys their way once, that is small potatoes compared to USA's monetary policy (a credit that is never-ending, cheap and plentiful and given pretty non-discriminatory ever since early 1980s), combined with US dollar's position in the global means of exchange and reserve currency, and the global free-trade promoted and backed by USA gov. Then there's tech industry's enormous influence on USA's legislation, which pretty much sets standards and boundary conditions for the entire world (if anybody wants to make and sell anythign in the global economy, it has be compatible with USA legislation. it's debatable if Polish national assembly can set standards even inside Poland). European Union counter-balances that a little bit, but it is too disorganized, effeminate, schizoid to do anything right, and is mostly concerned in global affairs instead of promoting European interests. An empire is a folly, but nobody can deny that it carriers some enormous benefits.
People don't serious think that BioWare is some separate entity or anyway autonomous from EA, don't they? Its subsidiary status is exactly same as EA Vancouver. Only reason it is named BioWare is because BW brand is more valuable in context of CRPGs than EA's own (people still probably have quite significant positive association towards BW name and logo, at least more so than to EA). If the world would go topsy-turvy, and for some miracle EA become most beloved and respected dev out there, you can bet that BW would change its name and logo overnight to something like "EA RPGs". Acquiring different studios doesn't only mean physical properties, personnel contracts or even IPs, but allows them to buy PR and goodwill, by diverting people's attention away from themselves. I can admire that, it's a crafty strategy after all, and it seem to be working quite well (it allows people to externalize undesirable traits and developments to EA, while internalize positives to BW, and by an extension to themselves if they identify as BioWare fans).
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Post by Terminator Force on Feb 10, 2019 11:16:22 GMT
Watched a few gameplay videos. Bioware has managed something extraordinary for the first time in 21 years. They made a game which is completely uninteresting to me... What did you think of Witcher III gameplay?
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Post by Ieldra on Feb 10, 2019 12:45:23 GMT
Watched a few gameplay videos. Bioware has managed something extraordinary for the first time in 21 years. They made a game which is completely uninteresting to me... What did you think of Witcher III gameplay? Which aspect? The fighting worked really well for me in spite of being unpausable on-screen (except for golems, they're annoying), and the movement was way better than in most Bioware games. Conversations could've done with a few more options, but they were ok. Most of all, though, I liked the cities and that there were so many quests that had their own little story to tell, and these stories never felt like no more than an excuse to get to the next fight.
Meanwhile, there seems little more to Anthem than doing one fight in order to get to the next, more difficult one. I don't care about gear except to get the job done and for aesthetics, I don't care about getting more powerful except to advance the story and getting influence on the big picture. That's not why I play games. I would care about getting more exclusive traits, this is why I was more annoyed to lose the anchor in DAI's Trespasser than I was to lose my arm, or to lose the political game, but in an MP environment you won't get that so that's another factor where the game loses me. Finally, there's content for which you need a team, and that's where the game loses me completely. With that, it's not even that I'm annoyed about it, I just move past it without being the least bit tugged in its direction, and if I wasn't on a forum dedicated to Bioware games I wouldn't speak a single word about it.
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