Are the asari just not trustworthy as a species?

I suppose but I always kind of thought Liara must also have had the cipher given that she was in his head multiple times.  Of course, ME3 says, no, she doesn't because she couldn't understand Javik until he learned...whatever they speak in the galaxy at large.

Interesting you mention that. Here's a post, from another thread, mentioning the cipher.

Interesting read.  Well, comes down to bad writing, I guess, or the asari not being as useful in this area as they beleived.

The thorian should have been contained, and it's hold over the colonists neutralized, but flat out killing it, the only known specimen of an alien species, because it threatened a colony of what twenty or thirty people? That just screams rash decision. Sure, that type of outlook is rather Renegade on the surface, but even Paragon Shepards could have seen the value in retaining the fungoid alien once he or she spoke to it.

Shepard didn't automatically try and kill Legion when it showed up despite it being a member of an AI collective that nearly genocided an entire species after all.

The thorian specifically mentions that it is reacting the way it did because of Saren's betrayal and subsequent attempt to kill it. This means two things: 1) It has the capacity to reason, and possibly negotiate, especially when it's well-being is at stake. 2) It's not something that automatically "assumes direct control" of all other organic life around it, otherwise it wouldn't have talked with Saren, it would have just enthralled him.

With those facts in mind, it could have been an easy fix to have the player fight through the defending creeper forces (and Shiala clone) and then hold a gun to one of the thorian's central 'nodes' and forced a surrender at gunpoint. Once the chaos of combat was resolved Shepard could have brokered an tentative truce; which wouldn't have been out of character for him/her seeing as how Shepard talks to countless other hostiles to try and deescalate things; even Saren. From there, Shepard could have forced the thorian to relinquish control of the colonists and allow Lizbeth and the 'good' portion of Exo-Geni to contain the alien until the Council and/or Alliance could be notified. And this is all before the thorian's ability to counter-act indoctrination is realized.

Who wouldn't want a guaranteed cure for indoctrination, one the reapers' greatest weapons, on hand once their presence and threat to the galaxy was revealed to everyone? Shepard is willing to work alongside the reapers very own creators to stop the cycles, asking/forcing the thorian to help the galaxy in the face of invasion would be way easier to swallow. I can just picture the interaction with it in ME 3: "Thorian, you are going to help us in the fight against the reapers by cleansing us, and anyone else of indoctrination. And before you think about using those spores of yours to try and take control of us, consider that the reapers know you exist and know that you are a direct threat to their plans. If we die, you die."

Plus, it's not like the thorian was hedonistic with it's thralls. Sure the loss of self-determination is concerning, but the codex specifically mentions how the thorian cared for those it enthralled not unlike a professional carpenter would his tools. It's calloused, but the colonists on Feros certainly had a better time of things compared to leviathan or reaper captives; they even get to live their own lives to a degree, provided they don't work against the thorian's interests. Again, a far better fate than those under the sway of the reapers or leviathans.

There's even the fact that the "hive-mind" aspect of the thorian's control could help bolster defenders across the galaxy. Imagine a single, well trained soldier, working in tandem with civilians across the galaxy and pulling off tactics and maneuvers otherwise impossible to achieve without thorian spores. 



I mean the game lets us have the choice to spare the rachni queen or kill her, why not the thorian?

Never mind that Shiala was doubly indoctrinated; first by Sovereign, then by the thorian.

It's possible, I suppose, that getting the thorian's thralls off of Feros and away from the spores could reduce the effect over time, but the sidequest on Nodacrux suggests otherwise.


Liara had trained her biotics, and had used them to defend herself before. She wasn't completely bereft of experience; she just didn't have a lot and was lacking confidence, thus panicked at the dig site on Therum. She gained that experience and confidence traveling with Shepard.


Assuming you're referring to the geth, I don't see any case that they'd "bested galactic special forces". They mostly disappeared behind the veil after the Morning War and were rarely seen/encountered.


That naive, virginal scientist is also presented as being unusually perceptive - she'd already figured out the cyclic extinction patterns and was determined to gather enough evidence to convince the rest of the scientific community. I don't know that she was ever especially naive, just shy with others and not very experienced with things outside of xeno-archaeology and her own culture.

Speaking of which, the role of a xeno-archaeologist is to collect, sort, organize massive amounts of data - directly and via the work and reports of others in the field - and make connections, create hypothesis and seek to find additional corroborating evidence to prove or disprove theories. The same methodology can be applied to any collection of data, including the sort of intel that an information broker would handle.  One can only guess how she managed to recognize Ilos from the mind-meld with Shepard - apparently, there'd been some ancient obscure study or survey of it buried in some research notes she'd reviewed at some point in her life (the Mu relay had supposedly been lost for ~ 4,000 years).

Her initial impetus for that involvement was the retrieval of Shepard's body. Having crossed the Shadow Broker, her life was at stake - so her survival instincts kicked in and drove her to do the rest.

Yeah, I admit the character change was extreme, but not completely unfounded when you look at all the facts. The other characters changed quite a bit from ME1->ME2, too.


Why? Because she was an asari commando?

Shiala became involved with Saren (who was looking for/needed other agents) because she was an acolyte of Benezia and chose to go along with her, and became indoctrinated.

How?

Did you not talk to any of the colonists and see how much they were suffering? Even the ones who did not appear to be in obvious pain would not answer Shepard's questions about the colony, instead referring her to Fai Dan. The best Fai Dan could do was kill himself instead of following the thorian's orders.

And, BTW, according to the wiki there were 300 people on Feros.

Post Feros, there is a Citadel elevator announcement saying that the colony has finally become profitable.

Oh I don't know, I'd trust Samara certainly. She may operate by an unusual set of values, but she's pretty straight up.

Which is why I called the unavoidable killing of it a tragedy of the story telling. We are presented with all these nuanced approaches for aliens like the rachni and geth but the throian is mandated by plot to be permanently placed in the "kill it with fire" category.


And that is true for the queen and Legion, but we only get that information because the game's narrative allows us to. They could have just as easily been converted into monster boss fights knowing everything we know of them prior to that point (i.e the Rachni Wars and Morning War). I appreciate the fact that the game didn't go with such a lowbrow approach to them, but I have to wonder why it did with the thorian.


And if the cure for indoctrination from a race of beings hellbent on the destruction of all advanced life in the galaxy was reviled to be an over-riding form of control by another species, except by one not hellbent on the destruction of all advanced life in the galaxy and willing to work with the races of the galaxy to stop the former race I would still say that's a more than acceptable trade off. Victims of reaper indoctrination are ultimately no use to the allied forces; and most have to be neutralized to prevent them from sabotaging this cycle's efforts at stopping the reapers. But if one could place an indoctrinated person in a room with thorian spores, who could then be freed of reaper control, then they would still be useful for the galaxy. Imagine grabbing afflicted engineers or scientists who were studying reaper tech and then inoculating them with the thorian. Think of all the advancements and uncovering of reaper weaknesses that could have been made if the galaxy didn't have to worry about its people falling to enemy control just by being near their technology.

Well - the rachni and geth were entire populations that had a significant role in galactic history and ongoing events. The thorian was a complete one-off - outside of the indoctrination and cipher, it had no more role in galactic events than shifty-looking cows. It did, however, present a significant danger.

I suppose they could have given Shepard a choice about whether to kill it, but then there should have been consequences to the Feros colony.  Even with it destroyed, the colonists suffered long-term, ongoing effects. The writers apparently didn't see it as worthwhile to do anything differently.  It was a boss fight, and those aren't usually ended with the participants kissing and making nice.


What the thorian did to those colonists was not a cure for reaper indoctrination. Its purpose was to serve as a foreshadowing, a demonstration of what indoctrination could do. I see no evidence that the thorian could have assisted with the reaper war. I mean, the writers could have taken a completely different approach to it, but they didn't.

What it did for Shiala was though. If she was still vulnerable to indoctrination then the moment the reaper forces showed up on Feros in ME 3 she should have slit the throats of all the remaining colonists, or some other grand act of sabotage. She didn't, she actually helped fight off the invasion, thanks in a large part to the thorian spores and the link it gave her with the rest of the colony. Indoctrination is not tied solely to a single reaper, thralls under command of Sovereign could have easily been used by Harbinger, or any other mecha-cuthulu.

And all things considered, thorian control is far, far, far preferable to the effects of leviathan and reaper control. Obviously not being controlled is ideal, but consider how the thorian didn't destroy the minds of those under it's sway. The people of Feros were able to think and reason and carry on their lives (with restrictions), certainly a better fate that those that were reduced to gibbering vegetables after only a week under Sovereign's care. 

Only if the reapers were actively trying to control her to do that - and we have no evidence that they were.  Also note that Benezia was able to break free of reaper control long enough to give Shepard the location of the Mu relay.


No, the thorian didn't destroy their minds, only their will and ability to act independently.  That's no different than what Sovereign did with its thralls.

Saren, Benezia, Rana Thanoptis, Dr. Kenson, TIM, Kai Leng, etc. were no more gibbering vegetables than the thorian's thralls.  Sovereign and the thorian both elected to allow (some of) their thralls to remain functional, for obvious reasons.

Note, too, that reaper indoctrination results in the victim being susceptible only to the reapers.  No reapers pestering them, no effect.  Thorian spores connect everyone with enough exposure to them to one another, and they remain so influenced long after the thorian's demise.