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Post by themikefest on Apr 10, 2018 17:47:40 GMT
When did the benefactor learn about the reaper invasion, and when did the benefactor decide to give Garson resources to finish her project? How much of the project was completed before the benefactor stepped in?
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Iakus
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Post by Iakus on Apr 11, 2018 3:43:57 GMT
Their first mistake, (among many, many others)
True. But, then the mistake was introducing ME3's ending ( ) without having a plan to move forward.
False. The AI was in place years before anyone outside of Saren had even heard of the Reapers. The problem was it was running out of funding.
First it wasn’t a mistake. The endings were fine and the MW is done. Second they never intended a direct sequel and third yes at first it was established just to explore beyond our galaxy then it became about survival. 1) It become a e mistake the moment they decided to do another Mass Effect game. Well, it was a mistake long before that, but for other reasons 2) And yet they did. 3) Then it wasn't the WHOLE reason, was it? Hell, most of the AI were there simply because TO EXPLORE! (read: "FOR SCIENCE!") since they didn't even know about the Reapers.
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Post by Andrew Lucas on Apr 11, 2018 4:06:13 GMT
The move to Andromeda could have happened either way, they didn't have to make a post ME3 game. It's the decision they took, and was by far the least important issue about the game. It's not a sequel. Shepard's story is done, and it makes a lot of sense to go far away from that. Nothing will ever top it. There isn't a 4 in MEA. Going to Andromeda never made Mass Effect initially bad, but the "game" in it, that's for sure.
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Post by Sanunes on Apr 11, 2018 4:43:08 GMT
I think BioWare damaged a lot of interesting things about the Milky Way due to how The Reapers were designed and their entire backstory. I don't see interesting conflict happening there because of what we know. The Asari probably are the most advanced civilization because they were seeded by the Protheans so they were given a head start. We know the majority of races that might have been on par with them would have been wiped out by the Reapers with the Prothean era. So maybe there is a race that might be as strong as the Asari if they found a Prothean beacon, but why haven't they been found for The Reaper plan was to make civilizations dependent on the Relay technology and it seems that Humanity was the choose species so I can't see another race breaking that without feeling contrived.
The other thing that I think of is business wise. To me to go back to The Milky Way it will take extra development to develop a new story and "bible" which could add a year or two to the development cycle which would increase the chances of being an unsuccessful game for the financial expectations would be higher. Unlike Heleus where BioWare has developed a new story and ideas that lead into other games already. So that would cut down the development time and the financial risk. One other argument I see on different places is that "if they go back to the Milky Way I will come back", but that doesn't consider that there might be people that won't buy another game set in the Milky Way especially if they don't want BioWare to touch their choices. So that leaves risk losing people versus the hope of at least the same number coming back.
To me I hated the Reapers, if they go back to that well I am just not sure I would be interested in the game especially after the big reveal of them, their plan, and their backstory.
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Post by dmc1001 on Apr 11, 2018 7:20:01 GMT
To me I hated the Reapers, if they go back to that well I am just not sure I would be interested in the game especially after the big reveal of them, their plan, and their backstory. Agreed. I've said many times that we already know the story of the Reapers and how it ends. Why rehash it? If people complain about the writing now, what makes them think it will be any better going forward?
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Post by griffith82 on Apr 11, 2018 10:28:52 GMT
First it wasn’t a mistake. The endings were fine and the MW is done. Second they never intended a direct sequel and third yes at first it was established just to explore beyond our galaxy then it became about survival. 1) It become a e mistake the moment they decided to do another Mass Effect game. Well, it was a mistake long before that, but for other reasons 2) And yet they did. 3) Then it wasn't the WHOLE reason, was it? Hell, most of the AI were there simply because TO EXPLORE! (read: "FOR SCIENCE!") since they didn't even know about the Reapers. You need to accept that this is simply your opinion not fact. I never had a problem with the endings of 3 and I’m not alone in that. Second show me proof that they intended a direct sequel to ME3 or you are simply assuming. Finally I already said that and so what? It’s human nature to want to explore.
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Post by Iakus on Apr 11, 2018 12:18:17 GMT
1) It become a e mistake the moment they decided to do another Mass Effect game. Well, it was a mistake long before that, but for other reasons 2) And yet they did. 3) Then it wasn't the WHOLE reason, was it? Hell, most of the AI were there simply because TO EXPLORE! (read: "FOR SCIENCE!") since they didn't even know about the Reapers. You need to accept that this is simply your opinion not fact. I never had a problem with the endings of 3 and I’m not alone in that. Second show me proof that they intended a direct sequel to ME3 or you are simply assuming. Finally I already said that and so what? It’s human nature to want to explore. *sigh* 1) The endings broke the base, there are a LOT of people who felt badly burned by them. You need to accept THAT. But that's beside the point that deciding to continue the series after those endings was a MISTAKE. The endings could have been universally adored, and it still would have been a mistake. 2) Whether they intended a direct sequel or not is irrelevant. They made one. It was a mistake. 3) Moving the goalposts.
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Post by griffith82 on Apr 11, 2018 13:02:21 GMT
You need to accept that this is simply your opinion not fact. I never had a problem with the endings of 3 and I’m not alone in that. Second show me proof that they intended a direct sequel to ME3 or you are simply assuming. Finally I already said that and so what? It’s human nature to want to explore. *sigh* 1) The endings broke the base, there are a LOT of people who felt badly burned by them. You need to accept THAT. But that's beside the point that deciding to continue the series after those endings was a MISTAKE. The endings could have been universally adored, and it still would have been a mistake. 2) Whether they intended a direct sequel or not is irrelevant. They made one. It was a mistake. 3) Moving the goalposts. I remember very well the vitriol about the endings and most was unjustified and uncalled for. It was just the same situation as here. Some people were being entitled jerks because they didn’t get exactly what they wanted. Things went downhill from that. Also plenty of people weee satisfied and you need to accept that! It was a not a mistake that is an OPINION and I don’t share it.
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Post by Sanunes on Apr 11, 2018 13:45:56 GMT
You need to accept that this is simply your opinion not fact. I never had a problem with the endings of 3 and I’m not alone in that. Second show me proof that they intended a direct sequel to ME3 or you are simply assuming. Finally I already said that and so what? It’s human nature to want to explore. *sigh* 1) The endings broke the base, there are a LOT of people who felt badly burned by them. You need to accept THAT. But that's beside the point that deciding to continue the series after those endings was a MISTAKE. The endings could have been universally adored, and it still would have been a mistake. 2) Whether they intended a direct sequel or not is irrelevant. They made one. It was a mistake. 3) Moving the goalposts. 1) That is not a universal truth and you need to accept that. Until you can find a way outside of the people complaining on the internet to give a good universal sample that is just basing your opinion on a skewed sample. Besides even going by the internet there are plenty of people that I have seen over the years being indifferent to the endings. I don't think there are many people that think they are amazing, but serviceable I think is a good way to describe the way I feel about them. 2) Again that is not a universal truth, that is your opinion. There is enough people out there that were begging for the game and pestering non-stop about it. Just because you think they shouldn't have gone beyond the Reaper storyline doesn't mean it was a good or bad thing. It was just something you didn't want. If nobody wanted another Mass Effect game it wouldn't have happened because EA wouldn't have made a game that people were not interested in.
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Post by Iakus on Apr 11, 2018 14:02:19 GMT
*sigh* 1) The endings broke the base, there are a LOT of people who felt badly burned by them. You need to accept THAT. But that's beside the point that deciding to continue the series after those endings was a MISTAKE. The endings could have been universally adored, and it still would have been a mistake. 2) Whether they intended a direct sequel or not is irrelevant. They made one. It was a mistake. 3) Moving the goalposts. I remember very well the vitriol about the endings and most was unjustified and uncalled for. Opinion Opinion Strawman Opinion Show me where I said otherwise Good for you?
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Post by Iakus on Apr 11, 2018 14:11:37 GMT
*sigh* 1) The endings broke the base, there are a LOT of people who felt badly burned by them. You need to accept THAT. But that's beside the point that deciding to continue the series after those endings was a MISTAKE. The endings could have been universally adored, and it still would have been a mistake. 2) Whether they intended a direct sequel or not is irrelevant. They made one. It was a mistake. 3) Moving the goalposts. 1) That is not a universal truth and you need to accept that. Until you can find a way outside of the people complaining on the internet to give a good universal sample that is just basing your opinion on a skewed sample. Besides even going by the internet there are plenty of people that I have seen over the years being indifferent to the endings. I don't think there are many people that think they are amazing, but serviceable I think is a good way to describe the way I feel about them. What part of "divided base" is so hard to comprehend? I can provide just as much anecdotal evidence that the endings were reviled as you can bring that says they were "serviceable" But even so, that wasn't my point. My point is creating a direct sequel from such DIVERGENT ENDINGS was a mistake. Even if the endings were universally praised as the most awesome endings ever, it would be a mistake to do so. Like trying to continue the Bhaalspawn's story after Throne of Bhaal. It was like unto Deus Ex: Invisible War. The endings and how it broke the fanbase simply compounded an already inherent problem. I said creating a direct sequel was a mistake. Not that they shouldn't make any more Mass Effect games (though I do believe that they should have let the franchise sit for a few more years, get more distance from the endings, but that is, as you say, my opinion)
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Post by dmc1001 on Apr 11, 2018 14:17:15 GMT
I'm not sure I'd call MEA a direct sequel. Sure, it takes place after, but it is so far removed from events in ME3 that it doesn't even matter what happened in the Milky Way. You can argue that the motives for going to Andromeda (original motives, before the MB got involved) were lacking. Yes, exploration is valid, but much of the MW was already unexplored. Heck, we know a lot of relays were locked and whatever is beyond them would have been worth exploring. It's only in context of knowing about the threat of the Reapers from the start (which Jien Garson did not) that the AI makes sense.
Just to be clear, I don't hate MEA but I can still see fault with it. I also don't hate ME3, but still use MEHEM (largely because I find it tedious to listen to the Catalyst).
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Post by griffith82 on Apr 11, 2018 16:12:00 GMT
*sigh* 1) The endings broke the base, there are a LOT of people who felt badly burned by them. You need to accept THAT. But that's beside the point that deciding to continue the series after those endings was a MISTAKE. The endings could have been universally adored, and it still would have been a mistake. 2) Whether they intended a direct sequel or not is irrelevant. They made one. It was a mistake. 3) Moving the goalposts. 1) That is not a universal truth and you need to accept that. Until you can find a way outside of the people complaining on the internet to give a good universal sample that is just basing your opinion on a skewed sample. Besides even going by the internet there are plenty of people that I have seen over the years being indifferent to the endings. I don't think there are many people that think they are amazing, but serviceable I think is a good way to describe the way I feel about them. 2) Again that is not a universal truth, that is your opinion. There is enough people out there that were begging for the game and pestering non-stop about it. Just because you think they shouldn't have gone beyond the Reaper storyline doesn't mean it was a good or bad thing. It was just something you didn't want. If nobody wanted another Mass Effect game it wouldn't have happened because EA wouldn't have made a game that people were not interested in. Amazing? No but I was satisfied with the endings. Decent pre EC good post EC. In the end I was satisfied and felt it was a good conclusion.
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Post by griffith82 on Apr 11, 2018 16:13:20 GMT
I'm not sure I'd call MEA a direct sequel. Sure, it takes place after, but it is so far removed from events in ME3 that it doesn't even matter what happened in the Milky Way. You can argue that the motives for going to Andromeda (original motives, before the MB got involved) were lacking. Yes, exploration is valid, but much of the MW was already unexplored. Heck, we know a lot of relays were locked and whatever is beyond them would have been worth exploring. It's only in context of knowing about the threat of the Reapers from the start (which Jien Garson did not) that the AI makes sense. Just to be clear, I don't hate MEA but I can still see fault with it. I also don't hate ME3, but still use MEHEM (largely because I find it tedious to listen to the Catalyst). I wouldn’t call it a direct sequel either. I haven’t used MEHEM but I’ve seen it and don’t care for it. But I respect that others do.
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Post by alanc9 on Apr 11, 2018 16:32:22 GMT
But even so, that wasn't my point. My point is creating a direct sequel from such DIVERGENT ENDINGS was a mistake. Even if the endings were universally praised as the most awesome endings ever, it would be a mistake to do so. Like trying to continue the Bhaalspawn's story after Throne of Bhaal. It was like unto Deus Ex: Invisible War. The endings and how it broke the fanbase simply compounded an already inherent problem. I'm not happy with drawing big conclusions from a sample size of two, particularly when both examples chose the same approach to the design issue. (TES after Daggerfall is the other one.) And I'm not convinced that Deus Ex: IW proves much of anything, since that game had design problems unrelated to the setting. My personal view is that RPG choices should not survive the particular PC. Games set in that universe after that PC's time should use whichever set of PC choices create the most interesting situation for the sequel. Would this work for enough players? Beats me. I'm not aware of it being tried.
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Post by Iakus on Apr 11, 2018 17:07:24 GMT
But even so, that wasn't my point. My point is creating a direct sequel from such DIVERGENT ENDINGS was a mistake. Even if the endings were universally praised as the most awesome endings ever, it would be a mistake to do so. Like trying to continue the Bhaalspawn's story after Throne of Bhaal. It was like unto Deus Ex: Invisible War. The endings and how it broke the fanbase simply compounded an already inherent problem. I'm not happy with drawing big conclusions from a sample size of two, particularly when both examples chose the same approach to the design issue. (TES after Daggerfall is the other one.) And I'm not convinced that Deus Ex: IW proves much of anything, since that game had design problems unrelated to the setting. My personal view is that RPG choices should not survive the particular PC. Games set in that universe after that PC's time should use whichever set of PC choices create the most interesting situation for the sequel.
Would this work for enough players? Beats me. I'm not aware of it being tried. I'd go so far as to say that RPG choices should not survive the game they were made in. It simply creates too much baggage for the developers to deal with. Neverending character cameos is just the beginning. It's probably not an unpopular opinion, but I think save imports should be done away with entirely.
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Post by Iakus on Apr 11, 2018 17:09:32 GMT
I'm not sure I'd call MEA a direct sequel. Sure, it takes place after, but it is so far removed from events in ME3 that it doesn't even matter what happened in the Milky Way. You can argue that the motives for going to Andromeda (original motives, before the MB got involved) were lacking. Yes, exploration is valid, but much of the MW was already unexplored. Heck, we know a lot of relays were locked and whatever is beyond them would have been worth exploring. It's only in context of knowing about the threat of the Reapers from the start (which Jien Garson did not) that the AI makes sense. Just to be clear, I don't hate MEA but I can still see fault with it. I also don't hate ME3, but still use MEHEM (largely because I find it tedious to listen to the Catalyst). The motives are stupid. The tech used is wtf-inducing, AND they tied the AI to the Reapers, complete with Liara cameo (or at least her voice)
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Post by Elfen Lied on Apr 11, 2018 17:34:48 GMT
I'd go so far as to say that RPG choices should not survive the game they were made in. It simply creates too much baggage for the developers to deal with. Neverending character cameos is just the beginning. It's probably not an unpopular opinion, but I think save imports should be done away with entirely.
Agreed. Stand alone games with separate storylines should be the way to go. No need for retcons, no more useless cameos, no more plotholes and no more loose end which are always tied up in a unsatisfactory way (when they're not tied up at all). Save import was funny at first, but after a while it turns out that the cons are more than the pros.
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Post by KaiserShep on Apr 11, 2018 18:01:12 GMT
I dunno. I'm convinced that the trilogy's lack of any real planning for its overarching plot hurt it way more than any inherent issue with save imports. That they created the Council and Collector Base decisions with what turned out to be no real way to properly implement them in the story later is more a fault of the writers, not the system. If a character who can die in a previous game feels poorly written and tacked on, is that a writing fault, or the fault of the ability to carry a decision over? How is this reconciled when another character can feel meaningful to the story, even if there's a playthrough choice where they're dead, and then have a stand-in feel meaningful too?
Seems to me that in some examples in the trilogy, BioWare seemingly straight up forgot some things in the carry-over details, like Thane and Jacob.
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Biotic Booty
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by dmc1001 on Apr 11, 2018 20:02:00 GMT
I'm not sure I'd call MEA a direct sequel. Sure, it takes place after, but it is so far removed from events in ME3 that it doesn't even matter what happened in the Milky Way. You can argue that the motives for going to Andromeda (original motives, before the MB got involved) were lacking. Yes, exploration is valid, but much of the MW was already unexplored. Heck, we know a lot of relays were locked and whatever is beyond them would have been worth exploring. It's only in context of knowing about the threat of the Reapers from the start (which Jien Garson did not) that the AI makes sense. Just to be clear, I don't hate MEA but I can still see fault with it. I also don't hate ME3, but still use MEHEM (largely because I find it tedious to listen to the Catalyst). The motives are stupid. The tech used is wtf-inducing, AND they tied the AI to the Reapers, complete with Liara cameo (or at least her voice) I'm not going to disagree. Plus, not a Liara fan and her voice acting wasn't even up to par with the audio we did hear. It's like they just HAVE to stick her in at all costs.
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Post by cypherj on Apr 11, 2018 21:26:46 GMT
I'd go so far as to say that RPG choices should not survive the game they were made in. It simply creates too much baggage for the developers to deal with. Neverending character cameos is just the beginning. It's probably not an unpopular opinion, but I think save imports should be done away with entirely.
Agreed. Stand alone games with separate storylines should be the way to go. No need for retcons, no more useless cameos, no more plotholes and no more loose end which are always tied up in a unsatisfactory way (when they're not tied up at all). Save import was funny at first, but after a while it turns out that the cons are more than the pros. I don't agree with this. A third ME game with a third storyline would have been a lesser experience for me that actually feeling the satisfaction of curing the Genophage, or making peace between the Geth and the Quarians. Seeing Jack the loner in ME2 turn into a teacher and caring about her students. The scene in ME2 when you see Wrex and he's like 'Shepard' anf you're both pushing through people to get to each other. Just the romances or the friendship with Anderson that carried through all the games. It would have been a lesser experience. I remember once just for fun I chose the default world state at the beginning of ME2, was terrible, absolutely terrible, it was almost like they were trying to make you go get ME1. I think it all comes down to execution. ME1 was close-ended, so I don't think they had planned it out at that point. If someone paths it all of it out beforehand it could be great mechanic.
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Post by SofaJockey on Apr 11, 2018 22:01:07 GMT
...hear that EA is pretty much abandoning ME?! I don't believe EA or BioWare have said any such thing. There are at least two other games in the pipe first before Mass Effect gets revisited. BioWare doesn't normally comment on what's in future development, and frankly, all the focus is on Anthem right now, with something Dragon Age related after that if Anthem goes well. Personally I think the series will continue but will be a way off (and may not be a direct sequel to MEA).
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2018 21:45:04 GMT
I'm not sure I'd call MEA a direct sequel. Sure, it takes place after, but it is so far removed from events in ME3 that it doesn't even matter what happened in the Milky Way. Spinoff works pretty well for me.
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Post by KaiserShep on Apr 13, 2018 23:20:53 GMT
Agreed. Stand alone games with separate storylines should be the way to go. No need for retcons, no more useless cameos, no more plotholes and no more loose end which are always tied up in a unsatisfactory way (when they're not tied up at all). Save import was funny at first, but after a while it turns out that the cons are more than the pros. I don't agree with this. A third ME game with a third storyline would have been a lesser experience for me that actually feeling the satisfaction of curing the Genophage, or making peace between the Geth and the Quarians. Seeing Jack the loner in ME2 turn into a teacher and caring about her students. The scene in ME2 when you see Wrex and he's like 'Shepard' anf you're both pushing through people to get to each other. Just the romances or the friendship with Anderson that carried through all the games. It would have been a lesser experience. I remember once just for fun I chose the default world state at the beginning of ME2, was terrible, absolutely terrible, it was almost like they were trying to make you go get ME1. I think it all comes down to execution. ME1 was close-ended, so I don't think they had planned it out at that point. If someone paths it all of it out beforehand it could be great mechanic. For any faults I could find in the ways the trilogy handled its import structure, I just about loved every bit of it in spite of all its flaws. Some cameos were middling to meh, but others were kind of awesome. I personally loved Grunt's appearance, and Mordin, to me, was rather sublime. This mechanic kept me playing the trilogy for years. The default world state of ME3 is pretty damn depressing too. Man, there is nobody on the friggin Normandy, or anywhere. Some rando krogan on Utukku gets his in the end. An argument can be made for Grissom Academy. The students fending for themselves by themselves is actually rather compelling. I love Jack so I'd prefer her in it, but the appeal of the alternative is undeniable. In any case, the defaults are just a downer and I won't stand for it!
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Post by helios969 on Apr 21, 2018 8:30:01 GMT
Will Mass Effect as a universe continue, definitely. Will there be a sequel to MEA...doubtful. But I do see one viable way to move forward with the latter and recapture enough interest. Allow the player character to be any of the races and set the game about 50 years into the future...introducing the next generation of "Pathfinders." They would absolutely need to produce a dlc/expansion to tie up the loose ends of MEA...even if it's a break even proposition. Obviously they would need to put more effort into their storytelling on the next go.
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