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Post by azarhal on Jun 13, 2018 17:36:59 GMT
I got motion sickness and I love 1st person games. ![:lol:](//storage.proboards.com/6576594/images/GRiOTZriToMzTsZhruCr.png) Sometimes it take a while to adjust my game settings, some I can't endure more than an hour beside having to take a long pause though, but I think developers are getting more sensible to the issue and it's getting easier to make it work for me. I had no issue in Subnautica and Kingdom Come this year for example. I remember having awful headaches and nausea while playing Morrowind back in the days though. I ended up making it work, I actually think I only get the issue when I start a new game and the more I play the less it affect me..or something. Technically all you have to do is imagine you are the guy standing behind Geralt, but I get your point. However while 3rd person view may be better for wide open environments the environment in Cyberpunk 2077 is very different to that of the Witcher 3, much more claustrophobic with tighter corners and streets, much more verticality with towering Skyscrapers and dark alleys, for this I think the first person view is more suitable. This makes me think though. I really hope there’s a photo mode. Photo mode was confirmed to be in on the official CP2077 discord. Sounds like Cyberpunk's cut scenes (not sure if that extends to conversations?) are 3rd person, but the rest is 1st person. For Anthem, everything in Fort Tarsis is 1st person (even cut scenes), but then 3rd person outside the hub. Cyberpunk has 1st person cutscenes as well and they are apparently totally seamless (so kinda what was shown for Anthem I guess).
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Post by luketrevelyan on Jun 13, 2018 17:56:15 GMT
Sounds like Cyberpunk's cut scenes (not sure if that extends to conversations?) are 3rd person, but the rest is 1st person. For Anthem, everything in Fort Tarsis is 1st person (even cut scenes), but then 3rd person outside the hub. Some of Anthem’s cutscenes are third person. Not according to this tweet: Edit: ok, not sure how to include tweets. Need Hrungr for this, lol. @biomarkdarrah No Mark Darrah added, Lawrence Kenneth @sporingl0 @biomarkdarrah Will cutscenes in Fort Tarsis be in 3rd person perspective? 11:44 AM - 13 Jun 2018
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Post by midnight tea on Jun 13, 2018 18:42:30 GMT
But Lord of the Rings is a movie, Cyberpunk 2077 is a video game, video games aren't movies. If you think our brain is not treating games as basically interactive movies you're just fooling yourself. Human perception is an interesting beast and you learn quite a lot about it when you have an opportunity to study art. The fact that games have unique storytelling tools in their toolbox doesn't mean that they're in any way tied to FPV - which is what we're discussing now, not other things - nor is FPV uniquely tied to video games. Here's a little problem - as much as games can venture into places movies can't, there's no escaping the fact that both movies and games are predominantly VISUAL MEDIUMS. Both movies and games use cameras (virtual as they may be) to frame actions and shots, both use characters/actors, light and color (and sound) and it will be true for a long time from now. The games simply don't stray too far away from other well-established mediums and the fact that that they offer unique storytelling opportunities, like non-linearity or gameplay elements serving the narrative, merely add new dimensions to already well-established storytelling repertoire, rather than morphs games into something that can totally escape its confines. In time, it may be different as culture and society shifts with the rise of new technologies. But it is how it is now, especially so long as we predominantly view both movies and games on the same screen and treat it as a 'window' into the story. Interactivity existed in art before games or even movies, even if it wasn't so widespread. And tabletop RPGs are basically entirely about shaping events to some degree based on actions, to a point which video games are still hardly capable of emulating. You mean like all stories do, from games to movies and books? None of what you're saying is unique to games. And the fact that games have new tools or are attempting to give us new means to empathize or understand characters doesn't mean that all their attempts are successful or immersive (or even connected to FPV) - which is why many people have issues with the first-person view. It isn't always working, especially if you take into account what has been said earlier - including a pervasive uncanny valley effect that pushes people away from empathizing or understanding, but instead finding the experience irritating or incomplete. Nevermind all the moments where narrative IMPOSES something on us that we don't want, or is too intense, or we have no way or responding the way we, or our imagined characters, would. Keep in mind that not all people like sharing 'one mind' with the character or self-insert to any significant degree into stories. If you do and enjoy that - that's alright, but understand that it's one of the things that can push people away from enjoying the story. I personally don't like when the game or any other medium is trying to impose it's POV on me and especially when it's going as far as to suggest it IS me. It can even feel intrusive at times. In my case, most of the time TPV is enough, because I can simply empathize with characters I see on screen just like I can empathize with real fellow humans that aren't me once I know them enough or their story enough or see what they're going through - that's just a natural thing to do for a social species like a human. I just don't have to mind-meld with a character or for the game to pretend that it's doing things specifically to me to understand how that feels.
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Post by Shinobu on Jun 13, 2018 23:08:22 GMT
Some of Anthem’s cutscenes are third person. Not according to this tweet: Edit: ok, not sure how to include tweets. Need Hrungr for this, lol. @biomarkdarrah No Mark Darrah added, Lawrence Kenneth @sporingl0 @biomarkdarrah Will cutscenes in Fort Tarsis be in 3rd person perspective? 11:44 AM - 13 Jun 2018 This is interesting. This could partly explain why there are no romance scenes. Sexy times in FPP would just be... no.
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Post by QuizzyBunny on Jun 13, 2018 23:34:55 GMT
Wait, so all cutscenes are in first person? Not gonna lie, that's a pretty big turn-off for me. Right now I feel that I'm mostly playing this to play with my friends, but there's a risk I will stop playing the moment they move on to other games. ![:unsure:](//storage.proboards.com/6576594/images/epOE0yTAeIBqVBexbFqw.png)
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Post by isaidlunch on Jun 13, 2018 23:41:51 GMT
Imagine if they add romances with first-person cutscenes ![:o](//storage.proboards.com/6576594/images/aCYreiXWLepPDsSBAqBw.png)
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Post by Frost on Jun 14, 2018 0:28:40 GMT
To be clear I am not saying that first person view is objectively better, I can see why people would have their preferences and depending on the type of game different viewstyles may be more suited depending on what the developer is going and what type of experience they want to give the player, personally I would have liked the option to switch between view styles but if I had to pick one for this type of game I am glad it is first person. I get why some people might prefer a 3rd person view however unless you get motion sickness I don't see what it is that 3rd person view provides that not having it is a deal breaker? For me a third-person view provides a connection to the character. In first-person view I find it difficult to imagine the character is me, especially when exploring and walking around the world, and that leaves me disconnected from the game and main character -- it is not me, but there is no character to see. (I am fine with first-person in VR, though, from what little I have seen.)
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Post by midnight tea on Jun 14, 2018 0:40:58 GMT
Imagine if they add romances with first-person cutscenes ![:o](//storage.proboards.com/6576594/images/GwPXMCiyBJsTThCnxdre.png) ![](https://st.deviantart.net/emoticons/s/stare.gif) Nuuuuu...
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Post by Queen Skadi on Jun 14, 2018 1:05:26 GMT
But Lord of the Rings is a movie, Cyberpunk 2077 is a video game, video games aren't movies. If you think our brain is not treating games as basically interactive movies you're just fooling yourself. Human perception is an interesting beast and you learn quite a lot about it when you have an opportunity to study art. Maybe your brain treats a video game like an interactive movie, others treat it like an experience or a simulation, I know I personally engage with video games on a much different level than I engage with movies, I know you like to flaunt your fancy art degree as if it is somehow useful in today's society however for all your study of art have you ever considered that you are only viewing art as it was seen through the eyes of whoever wrote your lesson plan for your courses and are not allowing yourself to consider what art can be? The fact that games have unique storytelling tools in their toolbox doesn't mean that they're in any way tied to FPV - which is what we're discussing now, not other things - nor is FPV uniquely tied to video games. Technically I wasn't specifically talking about FPV here, was talking about the difference of how people engage with their characters as opposed to characters within a movie, maybe to you there isn't a difference but then I would probably say you have a shallower view of what video games are and are either not allowing yourself to view games on a deeper level or incapable of it. Here's a little problem - as much as games can venture into places movies can't, there's no escaping the fact that both movies and games are predominantly VISUAL MEDIUMS. Both movies and games use cameras (virtual as they may be) to frame actions and shots, both use characters/actors, light and color (and sound) and it will be true for a long time from now. The games simply don't stray too far away from other well-established mediums and the fact that that they offer unique storytelling opportunities, like non-linearity or gameplay elements serving the narrative, merely add new dimensions to already well-established storytelling repertoire, rather than morphs games into something that can totally escape its confines. In time, it may be different as culture and society shifts with the rise of new technologies. But it is how it is now, especially so long as we predominantly view both movies and games on the same screen and treat it as a 'window' into the story. Isn't life largely a VISUAL MEDIUM as well? Most of us that don't suffer from poor eyesight identify a lot of what we see in the environment through sight and sound, sure there is also touch and smell that video games have yet to replicate but I never said video games were a facsimile of real life, I only said that we (or at least I and others) interact with video games in a different way that we do to movies. I mean sure the world within a video game is still an artificial construct but that does not mean that we cannot interact with that world and make things happen based on what we do within those worlds and the rules that govern that world, something we simply cannot do with movies. Not sure what your point is here or if you even have one? Interactivity existed in art before games or even movies, even if it wasn't so widespread. And tabletop RPGs are basically entirely about shaping events to some degree based on actions, to a point which video games are still hardly capable of emulating. Yeah nothing beats the human imagination for interactivity, so what? Does not change the fact that video games have far more potential for interactivity than movies could ever hope to have, not sure why this is such a foreign concept to you? You mean like all stories do, from games to movies and books? None of what you're saying is unique to games. And the fact that games have new tools or are attempting to give us new means to empathize or understand characters doesn't mean that all their attempts are successful or immersive (or even connected to FPV) - which is why many people have issues with the first-person view. It isn't always working, especially if you take into account what has been said earlier - including a pervasive uncanny valley effect that pushes people away from empathizing or understanding, but instead finding the experience irritating or incomplete. Video games aren't perfect and sometimes they miss the mark, that is true of any medium, that does not change however what the medium is capable of. Nevermind all the moments where narrative IMPOSES something on us that we don't want, or is too intense, or we have no way or responding the way we, or our imagined characters, would. I would say this is more a flaw in the design of the individual game itself rather than something that inevitably will happen in all video games, I would say it comes from the writer treating the player character like a character in a movie rather than a vessel for the player. Keep in mind that not all people like sharing 'one mind' with the character or self-insert to any significant degree into stories. If you do and enjoy that - that's alright, but understand that it's one of the things that can push people away from enjoying the story. I personally don't like when the game or any other medium is trying to impose it's POV on me and especially when it's going as far as to suggest it IS me. It can even feel intrusive at times. In my case, most of the time TPV is enough, because I can simply empathize with characters I see on screen just like I can empathize with real fellow humans that aren't me once I know them enough or their story enough or see what they're going through - that's just a natural thing to do for a social species like a human. I just don't have to mind-meld with a character or for the game to pretend that it's doing things specifically to me to understand how that feels. It isn't about the game forcing the character's POV on you (unless you are talking about the first person view and not so much how the character perceives things from an emotional point of view) but you providing the point of view and direction for your character, sure there might be some concessions to make to get into the mindset but video games make it possible for that deeper connection, maybe you are incapable of that deeper connection but it still does not change the fact that video games aren't movies and should not be treated as such.
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Post by bshep on Jun 14, 2018 1:24:56 GMT
Wait, so all cutscenes are in first person? Not gonna lie, that's a pretty big turn-off for me. Right now I feel that I'm mostly playing this to play with my friends, but there's a risk I will stop playing the moment they move on to other games. ![:unsure:](//storage.proboards.com/6576594/images/cZo0xxbuePb0ekWIyOcz.png) The ones inside Fort Tarsis yes. THe ones on the world cutscenes are made in 3rd person. ps: don't like the new emoticons. Want my personnal ones back... ![:FeelsBadMan:](//storage.proboards.com/6576594/images/PlhcvjzZhGZKQCccXmfS.png)
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Post by midnight tea on Jun 14, 2018 7:07:03 GMT
Maybe your brain treats a video game like an interactive movie, others treat it like an experience or a simulation, I know I personally engage with video games on a much different level than I engage with movies, I know you like to flaunt your fancy art degree as if it is somehow useful in today's society however for all your study of art have you ever considered that you are only viewing art as it was seen through the eyes of whoever wrote your lesson plan for your courses and are not allowing yourself to consider what art can be? I only said that I'm a professional graphic artist before in a completely different context (you specifically asked me about my profession!) and now I only said that you can learn a lot about perception when studying art, which is something people can do without any degree (especially today, with so many resources on the Web) and with no mention of my academic credentials. So chill and drop the ad hominem and insulting my profession, it's really unnecessary and doesn't make you look good. Anybody who thinks that going to art schools means parroting teachers or courses clearly demonstrates their ignorance on the matter and probably needs a bit of self-reflection on their art perception themselves. The rest is spoilered due to length: Well, so far the one thing I see someone being seemingly incapable of is having a discussion without trying to crudely strawman or disparage who they respond to... And if we're talking specifically about Points of View then don't suddenly change the topic, because it makes this part of discussion a big effing non-sequitur. And it's just silly to talk about people engaging differently with characters in games and movies when people engage with characters differently across different movies and across different games. It's weird that you seem to think that I - generally, as a whole - think of games and movies as some sort of monolith, when I don't even think about different games or movies as monoliths, given the vast array of genres and creative tools at their disposal. But we aren't talking about games and movies as a whole: we are talking about things that connect both movies and games from narrative standpoint and that is the usage of PoV, so can we please not derail this thing? It's getting pretty convoluted. The fact that humans are predominantly visual/auditory creatures doesn't yet make life a 'visual medium' ![](https://st.deviantart.net/emoticons/s/stare.gif) A 'visual medium' or 'visual art' obviously takes cues from how humans see things and oft closely follows what we're familiar with (which is actually the gist of a point I was making about FPV/TPV), but life as a whole is not a work of art in which an artist consciously arranges visuals to evoke emotional or intellectual reactions from the audience. And if you think that 'visual medium' is just 'seeing or hearing things' rather than at least 'arranging things we see in specific ways to achieve desired effects and impact the viewer' then... well, sorry, but you're not filling me with confidence that we can have meaningful discussion here - it's hard to address anything when even most basic artistic or storytelling concepts or categories seem to be misconstrued into something meaningless or incoherent. I mean, I talk about storytelling techniques, about using cameras to frame actions and shots, or using characters/actors with whom we engage and how games and movies in that regard share a lot of DNA (at least when it comes to games with a classic narrative structure), and you're suddenly jumping out with 'replicating reality' and ability to interact with in-game world which is... entirely not what I was talking about in the above paragraph. The only thing I can decipher from this is that you're trying to simplify this whole thing to 'a-ha! But you can interact somewhat with game world and you can't in movies!", as if I didn't already state that adding new dimensions to an already existing storytelling repertoire ain't enough to qualify games as a medium wholly separate from their predecessors, even in a crazy scenario where we would want to do that. No medium is wholly separate, because there are storytelling techniques that simply work or we're deeply attached to them across different media/different visual media and thus connect them all, which is my point. Never mind that movies have long flirted with adding new, crazy dimensions to the movie experience, to a point that now we have even 12D cinemas that use different means to make people feel, smell or sense the experience what they see on screen. And as technology marches on, don't expect for neither games or movies to stay as they are now. That's my line! If you understand that games have far more potential for interactivity than movies can ever hope to have I expect you to stop acting like at the beginning of this response to me and making it seem as if calling games 'interactive movies' means that they're the exact same thing as movies. They're not - but they share enough DNA for there to be enough similarities in many aspects; at least those games that have a narrative structure similar to those in other mediums (containing characters, worlds, linear or semi-linear structure). What such games are is simply a natural step in the evolution of our 'moving pictures', rather than a new, separate thing, hence I don't expect for them to ever lose that DNA or points where we can compare, analyze or critique the two. Please show me in the above where exactly I was wholly questioning what video games are capable of? Stop acting as if I am attacking games and doing so wholesale. Pointing out that making certain narrative decisions, especially in regard of PoV, isn't always working or is a mixed bag is certainly not that, and I'm fairly sure that my English is understandable enough for it to be pretty clear. First - treating a character as a character isn't a 'flaw'. Not all characters in a game have to be vessels for players. Second - it doesn't matter whether the character is a character is a vessel. My sister, for example, refuses to play any 3D games where combat is involved, because once when she was young she hated all the 'jump scares' from her character's peripheral vision resulting with the camera going crazy and enemies leaping at the screen and sudden, jarring visual indicators that she's being hit an hurt. It has little to do with a character, but all with presented visuals, obscured field of view and camera work. And no, these things don't necessarily happen in ALL games, but depending on chosen methods on presentation some things can have pretty consistent problems. Can you please read what you're responding to? How many times and how much more clearly I have to state that I DON'T HAVE TO be inserted into character's head to feel the connection? Really, ask yourself who has problems with 'deep connection' here - a person who can easily empathize with a character without having to enter their heads or a person who needs to be inserted into character's head to gain a deeper understanding of them? You realize that this is what I was talking about when I said in an earlier comment that FPV can feel 'too close'? If I like the character and the story is compelling then my connection is already deep and I don't need more because it feels excessive or uncanny or both . That is true regardless whether it is a game or a movie, or a book (you seem to keep forgetting that I mention those, even though PoVs aren't really storytelling tools exclusive to just games or movies and they present similar problems... but it may be too abstract of a concept for a discussion on this level of discourse).
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Post by fchopin on Jun 14, 2018 9:09:48 GMT
I like watching everything in third person not just my character like in films. The only time i change to first person in Skyrim is when i searching for something which is not easily seen in third person. What you should be asking is what is so good in playing a camera as that is what it is like in first person, if i wanted to play a camera i would go and buy one and take pictures. To be clear I am not saying that first person view is objectively better, I can see why people would have their preferences and depending on the type of game different viewstyles may be more suited depending on what the developer is going and what type of experience they want to give the player, personally I would have liked the option to switch between view styles but if I had to pick one for this type of game I am glad it is first person. I get why some people might prefer a 3rd person view however unless you get motion sickness I don't see what it is that 3rd person view provides that not having it is a deal breaker?As for the benefits of a first person view, I would say it is more immersive looking through the eyes of the character rather than watching them through some invisible hovering camera, the first person view also allows you to get up closer to the environment and allow you to inspect objects within the game world a bit better, shooting guns is a lot more comfortable from a first person perspective, better aim and you don't have your character blocking the view of what is in front of you. In general the first person view just allows you to get better immersed in the world around you, also reading a lot of the preview information it is not like the decision to go first person this time around was made lightly, it seems a lot of the systems were designed and really complimented by the first person view, even things like the heads up display is tied to your character's augmentations which allows the hud to be more that little bit more immersive in first person view. Maybe it is not a deal breaker and i may get the game but i will wait until the game is out and see what the community says.
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Post by Pounce de León on Jun 14, 2018 10:04:26 GMT
Imagine if they add romances with first-person cutscenes ![:o](//storage.proboards.com/6576594/images/klWqparKFLzwnMtUzMgb.png) Nah, player on player action is 3rd person.
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Post by Queen Skadi on Jun 14, 2018 10:42:17 GMT
Maybe your brain treats a video game like an interactive movie, others treat it like an experience or a simulation, I know I personally engage with video games on a much different level than I engage with movies, I know you like to flaunt your fancy art degree as if it is somehow useful in today's society however for all your study of art have you ever considered that you are only viewing art as it was seen through the eyes of whoever wrote your lesson plan for your courses and are not allowing yourself to consider what art can be? I only said that I'm a professional graphic artist before in a completely different context (you specifically asked me about my profession!) and now I only said that you can learn a lot about perception when studying art, which is something people can do without any degree (especially today, with so many resources on the Web) and with no mention of my academic credentials. So chill and drop the ad hominem and insulting my profession, it's really unnecessary and doesn't make you look good. Anybody who thinks that going to art schools means parroting teachers or courses clearly demonstrates their ignorance on the matter and probably needs a bit of self-reflection on their art perception themselves. Whoa chill out brah! Wasn't insulting your profession at all and if you can make a living as a graphic artist then all the more power to you, merely making a point that merely studying art as it is isn't really enough and that art is an ever evolving thing, it is not simply enough to copy what came before, you need to develop your own unique spin and your own techniques, something that moves the medium forward instead of just imitating what came before, video games are a relatively new medium and while some of the techniques of other art forms still apply there are a lot of techniques used in other mediums that simply hold the video game medium back by mirroring them too closely. I am sure we have all studied art to some varying degree and while it is good to study other pieces of art to figure out what works and what doesn't you also need to build apon that foundation yourself with your own unique techniques and style sometimes even throwing some of the more traditional techniques out the window and trying something new. Well, so far the one thing I see is someone being seemingly incapable of having a discussion without trying to crudely strawman or disparage who they respond to... And if we're talking specifically about PoV then don't suddenly change the topic, because it makes this part of discussion a big effing non-sequitur. And it's just silly to talk about people engaging differently with characters when people engage with characters differently across different movies and across different games. It's weird that you seem to think that I - generally, as a whole - think of games or movies as some sort of monolith, when I don't even think about different games or movies as monoliths, given the vast array of genres and creative tools at their disposal. But we aren't talking about games and movies as a whole: we are talking about things that connect both movies and games from a narrative standpoint and that is the usage of PoV, so can we please not derail this thing? It's getting pretty convoluted. Thing is the post I was responding to was claiming that the only way that they can empathize with a character is by being able to see the character and their facial expressions like you do in a movie thus that is why a 3rd person camera is better, however to me it would seem the person fails to grasp how others relate to their characters in video games and the unique opportunities video games offer to form a connection between the player and the character, and this is a discussion that does not relate purely to the benefits of first over 3rd person view angles, maybe you consider it going off topic however it really isn't something that can be discussed relating purely to camera angles, it goes a bit deeper than that. The fact that humans are predominantly visual/auditory creatures doesn't yet make life a 'visual medium' ![](https://st.deviantart.net/emoticons/s/stare.gif) A 'visual medium' or 'visual art' obviously takes cues from how humans see things and oft closely follows what we're familiar with (which is actually the gist of a point I was making about FPV/TPV), but life as a whole is not a work of art in which an artist consciously arranges visuals to evoke emotional or intellectual reactions from the audience. I mean... if you think that 'visual medium' is just 'seeing or hearing things' rather than at least 'arranging things we see in specific ways to achieve desired effects to impact the viewer' then... well, sorry, but you're not filling me with confidence that we can have meaningful discussion here - it's hard to adress anything where even most basic artistic or storytelling concepts or categories seem to be misconstrued into something meaningless or incoherent. I mean, I talk about using cameras to frame actions and shots, or using characters/actors with which we engage and how narrative games and movies in that regard share a DNA (at least when it comes to games with a classic narrative structure), and you're suddenly jumping out with 'replicating reality' and somehow confusing it with me making a point here about games being 'facsimiles of real life'... Just making a point of how we interact differently with video games than we do with movies, I get that video games are an artificial construction and that the artist creating it can arrange things in specific ways to lead a player down a specific path or attempt to make them feel a certain way or come to a specific realization, but do you understand that the techniques learned in the construction of movies aren't the only ways to do these things and in some ways aren't always conducive to the video game medium? If you understand that games have far more potential for interactivity than movies can ever hope to have I expect you to stop acting like at the beginning of this response and making it seem as if me calling games 'interactive movies' means that they're the exact same thing as movies. They're not - but they share enough DNA for there to be enough similarities in many aspects; at least those games that have a narrative structure similar to those in other mediums (containing characters, worlds, linear or semi-linear structure). What such games are is simply a natural step in the evolution of our 'moving pictures', rather than a separate thing, hence I don't expect for them to ever lose that DNA or points where we can compare, analyze or critique the two. Is a flight sim an interactive movie? Or is it a simulation built to emulate real life scenarios for the pilot to experience and train on? I simply do not share your opinion that video games are merely "interactive movies", I mean sure some games like the uncharted series are but that in my opinion is why those games suck, however the video game medium as a whole can be so much more than that. Please show me in the above where exactly I was wholesale questioning what video games are capable of? Stop acting as if I am attacking games and doing so wholesale. Pointing out that making certain narrative decisions, especially in regard of PoV, isn't always working or is a mixed bag is certainly not that, and I'm fairly sure that my English is understandable enough for it to be pretty clear. well here is the quote I was responding to Here it seems to me you are saying that sometimes a video games attempts to empathize and understand characters don't always succeed or are all that immersive and to that point I can only say that not everything is going to resonate with everyone and sometimes things are going to fall flat altogether, this is true of any medium so I am not sure what your point is? Perhaps the first person view doesn't work for you but for others it does, you can't really please everyone nor should you really try. First - treating a character as a character isn't a 'flaw'. Not all characters in a game have to be vessels for players. Second - it doesn't matter whether the character is a character is a vessel. My sister, for example, refuses to play any 3D games where combat is involved, because once when she was young she hated all the 'jump scares' from her character's peripheral vision resulting with the camera going crazy and enemies leaping at the screen and sudden, jarring visual indicators that she's being hit an hurt. It has little to do with a character, but all with presented visuals, obscured field of view and camera work. And no, these things don't necessarily happen in ALL games, but depending on chosen methods on presentation some things can have pretty consistent problems. To respond to your first point, no not all characters within the game need to be a vessel for the player and for most games not all characters should be treated as a vessel for the player, only one character needs to serve as a vessel for the player and that is the character the player controls, generally I feel they should be more of a fluid character that allows the player to project their own thoughts and views on and experience the world through. The rest of the characters can be created like your usual characters in fiction. Of course this is my preference of how the player character should be handled in a game and you can still have a playable character that is more defined and feels things irregardless of what the player is feeling but then I don't think you can really form that deeper connection with that character beyond being an outside observer. As for your second problem that is a valid reason to not like first person viewpoints however it also points to something that can be a positive or a negative depending on your disposition and preferences, some people may prefer the more intense scares that a first person view point can provide while others who do not like scares may not appreciate that as much. Can you please read what you're responding to? How many times and how much more clearly I have to state that I DON'T HAVE TO be inserted into character's head to feel the connection? Really, ask yourself who has problems with 'deep connection' here - a person who can easily empathize with a character without having to enter their heads or a person who needs to be inserted into character's head to gain a deeper understanding of them? You realize that this is what I was talking about when I said in an earlier comment that FPV can feel 'too close'? If I like the character and the story is compelling then my connection is already deep and I don't need more because it feels excessive or uncanny or both . That is true regardless whether it is a game or a movie, or a book (you seem to keep forgetting that I mention those, even though PoVs aren't really storytelling tools exclusive to just games or movies and they present similar problems... but it may be too abstract of a concept for a discussion on this level of discourse). No I get you, you can empathize with a character without being in their head, but does casually observing a character truly compare to walking a mile in their shoes? Video games to a degree allow the player to do that where movies and books cannot, sure they can show you and tell you what that character might be feeling but they don't really put the audience into the situation where they are the ones who have to react and make decisions that can potentially drive the narrative or the gameplay experience, it is very different to watch somebody or read about somebody making a difficult decision than being forced to consider and make that decision yourself.
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Post by Queen Skadi on Jun 14, 2018 11:26:04 GMT
Angry Joe interview gives a little bit of insight into why they chose the first person view and may give some insight into what I am talking about for those who don't get it.
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Post by Kappa Neko on Jun 14, 2018 11:35:26 GMT
I've always seen in this way: First person - let's player immerse themselves better IN THE WORLD.
Third person - let's player have a more movie-like experience where the focus is on THE CHARACTERS.
Hence FP is the predominant choice for shooters. You become the person on the battlefield. You feel like you're there. FP is great for exploration. It's ALSO great for getting up close and personal with NPCs. Cutscenes have been introduced to get the same level of emotional response when the gameplay is TP.
FP let's the player experience their characters on a "physical" level. Meaning any action has greater impact. Which is why I personally would never play a horror game in first person or even VR. It's too much in my face. Too "real".
But none of that has anything to do with an emotional connection to the character. In fact, it makes sense that FP takes away from that because the intended effect is the opposite. Nobody plays FPS games to feel more emotionally connected to their character. FP turns the character into a vessel through which YOU interact with the world. That is intentional and what people enjoy about FP I think. Make-believe that it's you.
So, first person provides a more intimate connection to THE ACTION on screen than movies. That is "all".
So when a developer choses one over the other I think they do so with that in mind. Do they want people to focus on the action/environment or the characters (and the protagonist in particular)?
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Post by Queen Skadi on Jun 14, 2018 11:42:49 GMT
I've always seen in this way: First person - let's player immerse themselves better IN THE WORLD. Third person - let's player have a more movie-like experience where the focus is on THE CHARACTERS. Hence FP is the predominant choice for shooters. You become the person on the battlefield. You feel like you're there. FP is great for exploration. It's ALSO great for getting up close and personal with NPCs. Cutscenes have been introduced to get the same level of emotional response when the gameplay is TP. FP let's the player experience their characters on a "physical" level. Meaning any action has greater impact. Which is why I personally would never play a horror game in first person or even VR. It's too much in my face. Too "real". But none of that has anything to do with an emotional connection to the character. In fact, it makes sense that FP takes away from that because the intended effect is the opposite. Nobody plays FPS games to feel more emotionally connected to their character. FP turns the character into a vessel through which YOU interact with the world. That is intentional and what people enjoy about FP I think. Make-believe that it's you. So, first person provides a more intimate connection to THE ACTION on screen than movies. That is "all". So when a developer choses one over the other I think they do so with that in mind. Do they want people to focus on the action/environment or the characters (and the protagonist in particular)? Just wondering what you mean by emotional connection to the character because I am not sure it is the same as what I mean? Being able to empathize with the character as an observer or taking on the role of the character yourself and becoming that character?
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Post by Shinobu on Jun 14, 2018 11:53:12 GMT
I've always seen in this way: First person - let's player immerse themselves better IN THE WORLD. Third person - let's player have a more movie-like experience where the focus is on THE CHARACTERS. Hence FP is the predominant choice for shooters. You become the person on the battlefield. You feel like you're there. FP is great for exploration. It's ALSO great for getting up close and personal with NPCs. Cutscenes have been introduced to get the same level of emotional response when the gameplay is TP. FP let's the player experience their characters on a "physical" level. Meaning any action has greater impact. Which is why I personally would never play a horror game in first person or even VR. It's too much in my face. Too "real". But none of that has anything to do with an emotional connection to the character. In fact, it makes sense that FP takes away from that because the intended effect is the opposite. Nobody plays FPS games to feel more emotionally connected to their character. FP turns the character into a vessel through which YOU interact with the world. That is intentional and what people enjoy about FP I think. Make-believe that it's you. So, first person provides a more intimate connection to THE ACTION on screen than movies. That is "all". So when a developer choses one over the other I think they do so with that in mind. Do they want people to focus on the action/environment or the characters (and the protagonist in particular)? Interesting point. I wonder if this will affect how Anthem's decision to have TPP in combat and FPP in noncombat situations is experienced. Will people feel less or more engaged with NPCs in Fort Tarsis? I feel as though they could not have done anything other than TPP for combat in Anthem as the limited FOV of FPP would be murder in a flying shooter. People would die without knowing what hit them because they wouldn't see those shots coming from behind and above them in FPP.
I'm glad that the FPP I've seen so far does not have TES-like floating hands. It seems much more realistic and I don't get that eye-boob feeling.
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Post by Kappa Neko on Jun 14, 2018 15:38:35 GMT
Just wondering what you mean by emotional connection to the character because I am not sure it is the same as what I mean? Being able to empathize with the character as an observer or taking on the role of the character yourself and becoming that character? By emotional connection I guess I mean empathize. Being the observer of their actions and emotions rather than becoming that person. But it's much more than that. When it comes to a character I created I connect with them on a personal level, maybe not unlike the way parents gush over their beautiful children. It's our innate narcissism I guess to adore our own creation. I just love looking at my characters and making up in my head what kind of people they are. They are very much NOT me. In Bethesda games I go into third person when I want to reconnect with my character, so to speak. Because running around in first person for hours looting everything in sight kind of makes me forget that I'm playing a character with their own background and motivations, and not just disembodied eyes and arms that are the means to an end. For me anyway FP can feel like just a camera that lets me look at stuff. It helps roleplaying to remind myself that this character (of possibly different gender) is their own person. Making choices that might not align with my own morality. (I wouldn't ever want to be a soldier so the whole idea of pretending that killing machine is me is totally ridiculous and unimmersive.) There are pros and cons to each viewing angle which is why I prefer to freely switch to suit my immediate needs. The more I can shape my character's appearance the more I want to look at it. I think that's a natural impulse. By making the character my own, looks and skills, I form an emotional connection. That connection fades the less I get to actually see that character. Maybe kind of like how you feel less connected with people in real life you don't interact with much. Out of sight, out of mind. My first Shepard for example became like a friend and my emotional reaction to loading her into ME2 and ME3 for the first time after not seeing her for a couple of years was very strong. Very much like seeing a real old friend again. Does that make sense to you?
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Post by Queen Skadi on Jun 14, 2018 16:10:06 GMT
Just wondering what you mean by emotional connection to the character because I am not sure it is the same as what I mean? Being able to empathize with the character as an observer or taking on the role of the character yourself and becoming that character? By emotional connection I guess I mean empathize. Being the observer of their actions and emotions rather than becoming that person. But it's much more than that. When it comes to a character I created I connect with them on a personal level, maybe not unlike the way parents gush over their beautiful children. It's our innate narcissism I guess to adore our own creation. I just love looking at my characters and making up in my head what kind of people they are. They are very much NOT me. In Bethesda games I go into third person when I want to reconnect with my character, so to speak. Because running around in first person for hours looting everything in sight kind of makes me forget that I'm playing a character with their own background and motivations, and not just disembodied eyes and arms that are the means to an end. For me anyway FP can feel like just a camera that lets me look at stuff. It helps roleplaying to remind myself that this character (of possibly different gender) is their own person. Making choices that might not align with my own morality. (I wouldn't ever want to be a soldier so the whole idea of pretending that killing machine is me is totally ridiculous and unimmersive.) There are pros and cons to each viewing angle which is why I prefer to freely switch to suit my immediate needs. The more I can shape my character's appearance the more I want to look at it. I think that's a natural impulse. By making the character my own, looks and skills, I form an emotional connection. That connection fades the less I get to actually see that character. Maybe kind of like how you feel less connected with people in real life you don't interact with much. Out of sight, out of mind. My first Shepard for example became like a friend and my emotional reaction to loading her into ME2 and ME3 for the first time after not seeing her for a couple of years was very strong. Very much like seeing a real old friend again. Does that make sense to you? Yeah that makes sense and is honestly how I always thought you (and others like Midnight Tea) interacted and formed connections to your characters, and to clear things up I am not saying that this is not a valid way to play an RPG or video games in general however what people in this thread seem to fail to understand (or at least midnight tea in particular) is that this is not the only way to form a connection with the character and I feel video games can provide a stronger experience if they let the player actively step into the role of that character rather than merely being the puppeteer making it dance, the way you connect to your characters sounds more like the way I connect to characters I create in games like Xcom or the Sims, I am not stepping into the roles of those characters I am just ordering them around, however in an RPG I like to step into the shoes of the character I am playing and make decisions as if I actually was that character, I like to experience the world as if I was that character rather than as merely an observer. I guess it comes down to the difference in how we play games.
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Post by Wulfram on Jun 14, 2018 17:13:09 GMT
The first person view for Fort Tarsis just seems like a way to avoid having to animate the player characters face.
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Post by MarilynRobert on Jun 14, 2018 18:03:36 GMT
Kind of surprised that the first person perspective is what so easily turns people off? Is that seriously the deal breaker in spite of everything else? Yes. Many of us physically cannot play first person due to motion sickness issues. Just a minute or two can send us running for the bathroom. Myself included. I get so motion sick with first person that it take hours to get over...can't stand up, want to throw up. Rules out games I want to play because I have no choice in the manner.
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Post by maximusarael020 on Jun 14, 2018 18:11:43 GMT
Yes. Many of us physically cannot play first person due to motion sickness issues. Just a minute or two can send us running for the bathroom. Myself included. I get so motion sick with first person that it take hours to get over...can't stand up, want to throw up. Rules out games I want to play because I have no choice in the manner. Honest question, just because I really don't know: Does speed of play make a difference in the motion sickness? Like FPS such as Call of Duty you are running around, ducking, vaulting, etc. Changing view very quickly. If it were much slower, just walking through a crowd and you could shift your view very slowly, would that make a difference? That's a real bummer that something beyond your control would not allow you to play games you want. Xbox recently revealed a game controller system for people with alternate control needs, increasing accessibility to those in need. I wonder what the thoughts are for adding software settings to make games more accessable for people with severe motion sickness and the like.
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Post by MarilynRobert on Jun 14, 2018 18:20:47 GMT
I get so motion sick with first person that it take hours to get over...can't stand up, want to throw up. Rules out games I want to play because I have no choice in the manner. Honest question, just because I really don't know: Does speed of play make a difference in the motion sickness? Like FPS such as Call of Duty you are running around, ducking, vaulting, etc. Changing view very quickly. If it were much slower, just walking through a crowd and you could shift your view very slowly, would that make a difference? That's a real bummer that something beyond your control would not allow you to play games you want. Xbox recently revealed a game controller system for people with alternate control needs, increasing accessibility to those in need. I wonder what the thoughts are for adding software settings to make games more accessable for people with severe motion sickness and the like. Speed makes it worse but it's so bad that just standing still and looking around at all makes me sick. I tried to work through it on some games and got so sick I thought I'd never get over it...at the time it felt like I'd be sick forever ![:sick:](//storage.proboards.com/6576594/images/VhbbJOxdgapOwskrOaaE.png) I get car sick (unless I'm driving), airsick, sea sick, ferris wheel sick (so embarrassing on a date, as a teen), so it's not just the fault of games.
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Post by OhDaniGirl on Jun 14, 2018 18:25:52 GMT
I get so motion sick with first person that it take hours to get over...can't stand up, want to throw up. Rules out games I want to play because I have no choice in the manner. Honest question, just because I really don't know: Does speed of play make a difference in the motion sickness? Like FPS such as Call of Duty you are running around, ducking, vaulting, etc. Changing view very quickly. If it were much slower, just walking through a crowd and you could shift your view very slowly, would that make a difference? That's a real bummer that something beyond your control would not allow you to play games you want. Xbox recently revealed a game controller system for people with alternate control needs, increasing accessibility to those in need. I wonder what the thoughts are for adding software settings to make games more accessable for people with severe motion sickness and the like. If I am able to move very slowly (I mean like snail pace), and other motion on the screen (people walking around and such) is very limited, I can tolerate it. But there aren't many games where that is feasible.
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