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Post by azarhal on Aug 13, 2018 23:23:22 GMT
But either way, if the legends were right, and Fen'Harel sealed the Evanuris away in the heavens (fade) then is it too much of a stretch to say that they were right when they claimed he sealed the Forgotten Ones in the abyss (deep roads)? The abyss is interchangeable with the Void in the lore. Saying that something is in the abyss is similar to saying it is dead, technically. Although, recently I realized this part of the legend might just refers to the elves who were part of the rebellion who go sealed in the real world or the crossroad or died when Solas raised the Veil. The Dalish would considers those rebel elves the bad ones hence the maligned pantheon who went against the Creators. That idea is based on "Anaris" being the greeting the rebels used to recognize each others and Geldauran's message literally saying he was forgotten. I'm not saying Geldauran was a nice dude though. I think the dragons that turn into archdemons are a magical lock system that predate the Veil, they aren't the actual "old gods" (minus the soul fragment probably belonging to some of the Enuvaris or something like that). They are a lock for the door that old whispers want opened (italic is what Cole says about the song red lyrium whispers to the Red Templars).
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 14, 2018 13:25:15 GMT
But either way, if the legends were right, and Fen'Harel sealed the Evanuris away in the heavens (fade) then is it too much of a stretch to say that they were right when they claimed he sealed the Forgotten Ones in the abyss (deep roads)? This does seem very plausible. It would also account for why he was wetting himself about the Grey Warden proposal to try and locate and kill the final two, since it is evident he knows exactly who they are. I think that it was Merrill who added an extra piece into this legend and said that he persuaded them into the respective prisons not through means of a truce but by suggesting he knew the location of an ultimate weapon to defeat their enemies. I wouldn't be at all surprised to discover that ultimate weapon was a reality and it was red lyrium but Solas ensured that was locked away too - the collapse of caves and sealing with magic. However, over time the magic has been weakening allowing Hawke's party to breach the wards on the ancient thaig and discover it.
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Post by wickedcool on Aug 14, 2018 14:40:45 GMT
Is solas an old god? Little confused on the hierarchy
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Post by Reznore on Aug 14, 2018 15:22:47 GMT
Is solas an old god? Little confused on the hierarchy We don't know what the old gods are.
The official story is there are Tevinter ancient pagans gods, and they lured some magisters in the Golden City. Then they got corrupted, started Blights, got shanked by Grey Wardens.
But we don't know the old gods relationship to the ancient elves. Solas and Flemythal are aware of them. Solas seems to think the wardens aren't the brightest killing them, and Flemythal saved an old god soul.
There's a number of bizarre things however. There are 7 old gods. There were 7 Evanuris that got trapped by Solas. There's rumors the golden city had 7 gates, and when those are broken, chaos will ensue.(Chant of Light) There are dragons the "animals", and the Evanuris could turn into dragons, so shapeshifters.
Mythal had dragons pets. And there's also Coryphanus who put a piece of his soul into a dragon.
Dragons, true ones, are also said to be able to contain the blight up to a point into some tissue into their bodies. So lots of dragons stuff...but no idea if shady shapeshifters, or dragons dragons having some anti blight effect up to a point. Or possessed dragons. So yeah. It's a bit complicated.
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Post by Walter Black on Aug 14, 2018 18:57:17 GMT
Having the Old Gods already be tainted would be thematically redundant, since we already know what happens. Encountering an uncorrupted OG would have the potential to move the story in several different directions.
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Post by TabithaTH on Aug 15, 2018 11:22:47 GMT
There are 7 old gods. There were 7 Evanuris that got trapped by Solas. There's rumors the golden city had 7 gates, and when those are broken, chaos will ensue.(Chant of Light) Could it be that the 7 elven “Gods” are behind the 7 gates and if they are freed, then they’d continue on their path of destruction? I mean, it wouldn’t be the first time the humans “borrowed” from ancient elven culture and made it their own.
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Post by xerrai on Aug 17, 2018 21:50:59 GMT
Having the Old Gods already be tainted would be thematically redundant, since we already know what happens. Encountering an uncorrupted OG would have the potential to move the story in several different directions. Well there is still the possibility of an uncorrupted Old God. We still don't know who or what actually sealed them (despite the theories), but I think it is safe to assume that something like sealing the Old Gods for millenia was monumental in scope, something that wasn't exactly common in history. Which meant that the rate of success was dubious at best. Particularly if certain variables were altered (which I imagined the veil did). So things like seal failures or prison break-ins/break-outs were reasonable for at least some of the prisons. But perhaps not all.
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Post by sageoflife on Aug 24, 2018 20:03:03 GMT
A couple things I think are worth considering.
The first is Hakon. It was said that Hakon rivaled Dumat in power. While it is wise to be skeptical of anything the Chantry says, the fact that Hakon is a god-like spirit that was pulled out of the Fade and fused to the body of a high dragon lines up suspiciously well with the Chantry's claim that the old gods were powerful spirits that crossed the Veil and took the form of dragons. If there is a connection, then each old god may actually be two separate beings: the spirit and the dragon it is inhabiting, very much like Urthemiel after he was fused with Kieran.
There's also an important detail that I think is being left out in the seven gates for seven gods idea: Draconis. According to in-universe speculation, there may actually be eight old gods rather than seven. While the elves added a god to their pantheon, the tevinters apparently subtracted one for an as-yet unknown reason. Of course, it can be argued the elves also subtracted a god when the rest of the evanuris murdered Mythal. These facts may or may not be connected.
What if the old gods in their original spirit forms were servants of the evanuris? That would give Solas yet another reason to dislike them considering what he says to Dorian about magisters binding spirits and having them perform mundane tasks. The old gods reaching out to humans may have been a long-term plan to free their masters from the Golden City, but it resulted in them somehow being tainted and sealed away. Pulling them out of the Fade and into the bodies of dragons may have been necessary for their original plan. However, the old god that served Mythal would have a very different plan than the other seven. If Draconis opposed the others either because Mythal ordered him to or out of revenge for her death, that would have led to his erasure from the pantheon. Draconis may even have been the one to seal the others away after they were tainted like Andruil seems to have been after spending too much time hunting in the Abyss.
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 25, 2018 8:29:37 GMT
I think Jaws of Hakkon did give us a number of clues about the nature of the Old Gods, particularly considering the presence of Tevinter Ruins in the Frostback Basin. In the Journal of one of the Jaws they state that:
In the old times, the first Jaws of Hakkon spoke with the great spirit himself. He opened their eyes that they might see the elfstones hidden across the world, and they entered the old cave and learned the mysteries of winter.
Hakkon has been silent all our lives. He cannot speak to us in dreams or open our eyes, and we remain blind to the elfstones. The lowlanders, though, have found a new way to see them. The skull of a dream-slain, set with the right magicks, can bring the elfstones to our sight.
So the spirit of Hakkon spoke to the mages of the first Jaws of Hakkon and gave them the knowledge to locate the shards that would open the old cave with the mysteries of winter. In that cave we also find a codex from Gelduran, one of the Forgotten Ones.
Since a powerful spirit of the Fade was able to give a group of Avvar the knowledge of how to find the shards that did not require the use of tranquil (or maybe it did) and this allowed access to an ancient cave sealed with elf magic, it would seem entirely possible that an earlier powerful spirit of the Fade did the same thing that allowed ancient Tevinter mages to access caches of old elven artefacts. Hence explaining how they came by the foci that Dorian recalls seeing in picture depicting that time.
Then the Journal of their leader states:
We have found it. Hakkon himself welcomed us..............We have found Hakkon, bound in silence where the lowland warrior trapped him for ages uncounted. Our trials have not been in vain. They were a test.
The lowland warrior trapped our god in some strange magic the mages cannot understand. They say time is twisted upon itself, a knot inside a knot. They say it may be the old Tevinter magic of this place that made it possible, spirits and old Tevinter power like blood and wine.
So the magic that trapped Hakkon also made it impossible for him to contact people in the outside world. His mages also believe that Ameridan was using an old magic that the Avvar mages did not understand. Was it Tevinter magic or something even older?
The spirit of Hakkon remains in the dragon. That much is clear. In the tales, the Jaws of Hakkon tamed it like a hold-beast, then fed it demonweed and other herbs the healers use to bring spirits. We cannot unravel the magic binding the dragon, but perhaps we can bring forth Hakkon himself and bind him anew to some other worthy beast.
I will eat the herbs myself. The mages say I may not be strong enough to bear such a great spirit as Hakkon. I would rather die trying than fail. I will not abandon my people. I will bring death to the lowlands.
So this clearly explains how a spirit can be summoned into a hold beast that has been specifically been prepared to be its vessel. Originally, with no dragon available, the Jaws were going to use Storvakker the Bear but when she was freed, the leader decided to attempt the ritual himself. However, his mage advisers thought he might not be strong enough to survive the ritual, suggesting that in ancient times the choice of dragon was that it had the constitution to withstand the ritual besides being a very powerful creature in its own right.
Also that magic could be used to draw the spirit from one such creature to another, by-passing the magic which holds its mortal body. This has shades of the soul jump of the old god soul from one blighted vessel to another due to the similarity between the two and how the dark ritual seems to work. Since Hakkon was not in a blighted vessel and no other suitably prepared vessel was to hand, when the Inquisitor kills the dragon, Hakkon is able to return to the Fade.
So whether the Old Gods were created by mages calling spirits into a dragon, or spirits being able to possess a dragon through their own power, or a spirit shape-shifting into dragon form, it does seem that they were originally spirits that were able to enter the mortal world in dragon form and then were later imprisoned. Given which part of the world that Andraste heralded from and her links to the Avvar and other barbarians that shared their lore, it is hardly surprising that her assertions about the Old Gods were that they were demons that were worshipped as gods that were subsequently imprisoned, thereafter only able to communicate from their prisons with the most powerful Dreamer mages.
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Post by azarhal on Aug 25, 2018 11:22:18 GMT
Hakkon has been silent all our lives. He cannot speak to us in dreams or open our eyes, and we remain blind to the elfstones. The lowlanders, though, have found a new way to see them. The skull of a dream-slain, set with the right magicks, can bring the elfstones to our sight.[skip] We have found it. Hakkon himself welcomed us..............We have found Hakkon, bound in silence where the lowland warrior trapped him for ages uncounted. Our trials have not been in vain. They were a test. Ooooh. Hakkon first talked to them, but after he was trapped in time/stasis magic he wasn't able to communicate anymore despite being physically in the world. That's quite similar to what seems to have happened to the Old Gods. They were talking/whispering to their priests and then stopped, as hinted at in Cory's memories and the notes around the Temple of Razikale in Jaws of Hakkon. It is possible someone cast a similar spell on the Old Gods (a few years? timeline is fuzzy here) before the Golden City was breached or that they were trapped that late on the timeline. Why encase dragons in stasis magic? Magic linked in-lore to augurs (Razikale via Avexius/Ameridan and the Lady of the Skies via what happens in the Still Ruins) too, so we might have a clue of who did it.
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