Pokemario
N3
First of the Dalish
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda
XBL Gamertag: Pokemario
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Post by Pokemario on Oct 3, 2018 13:42:41 GMT
I'd always try to avoid that situation, because it'd feel like you'd be missing out on content. I'd love it, however, if they did something more similar to how they handled Alistair in DAO, who leaves the party if you recruit Loghain.
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TabithaTH
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Post by TabithaTH on Oct 3, 2018 13:44:53 GMT
I'd always try to avoid that situation, because it'd feel like you'd be missing out on content. I'd love it, however, if they did something more similar to how they handled Alistair in DAO, who leaves the party if you recruit Loghain. This is exactly how I feel. I'd be afraid of loosing out on content because of it.
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Elfen Lied
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Post by Elfen Lied on Oct 3, 2018 17:22:14 GMT
In my opinion it made more sense in their old games where you could choose between a wider range of moral behaviors, and where you had the option to play the character you wanted, from the sacred paladin to the most evil piece of **** ever. At those times I found perfectly normal that good characters won't follow you anymore if you made too many heinous actions, and viceversa because you were judged by your moral meter across the whole game. Nowadays companions liking or disliking you is more of a personal matter, almost entirely affected by how you treat them, how often you agree with what they say/think/believe and how willingly you are to help them making their chores. In DA:I I could talk to Vivienne and tell her that mages are dangerous, that the chantry must control them in order to rise her approval and 2 minutes later I could go telling the opposite things to Leliana and get her approval too. Each companion is a single entity that you must handle in the more appropriate way if you want him or her to like (or dislike) you. They have slowly shifted from "companions are going to like or dislike me for the person I am" to "companions are going to like or dislike me for the person I make them believe I am" and this always seemed to me a bit unnatural somehow.
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melbella
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Trouble-shooting Space Diva
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by melbella on Oct 3, 2018 19:12:17 GMT
They have slowly shifted from "companions are going to like or dislike me for the person I am" to "companions are going to like or dislike me for the person I make them believe I am" and this always seemed to me a bit unnatural somehow. I'm sure part of the reason for that is games can take so long to finish now, they don't want to force people to play multiple times in order to see all the companion content. For those who like to play multiple times anyway, they can then tailor later PTs to recruit or not as they see fit.
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Post by Elfen Lied on Oct 3, 2018 19:41:02 GMT
They have slowly shifted from "companions are going to like or dislike me for the person I am" to "companions are going to like or dislike me for the person I make them believe I am" and this always seemed to me a bit unnatural somehow. I'm sure part of the reason for that is games can take so long to finish now, they don't want to force people to play multiple times in order to see all the companion content. For those who like to play multiple times anyway, they can then tailor later PTs to recruit or not as they see fit. I think it's more a matter of resources and how they cannot afford wasting them too much. In the days of Baldur's Gate things such voice acting and cutscenes were very very limited therefore it wasn't a big deal to create a bunch of companions that you could use or not, giving birth to a roster of characters that would befit every kind of moral behaviour, from the most pious to the most vicious. Things began to change with DA:O where you were bound to become The Hero of Ferelden no matter what, even if at least you were still able to do a lot of butchering in the process. With each subsequent game this moral compass has became more and more tighter to the point of DA:I where the most evil action that you could do is to let the chargers die or tell Cullen to keep using lyrium, which imho are just cold hearted decison, but far from being plain evil actions. Here is why the specific critical points where companions may leave you if you do (or don't do) a certain thing always feel detached from the rest of the game because it is all reduced to "If you don't do as I say I am going to leave, no matter what you've done until now or what you're going to do from this moment on". I am obviously talking about Alistair, Leliana and Sebastian. DA:I was slightly better from this point of view, because at least some companions would leave you only if you used to be a constantly A-hole towards them but still, it's a process which remain totally centered on your 1 vs 1 relationship with each companion and that's partially detached from the rest of the game and from the relationship between companions themselves.
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Post by biggydx on Oct 3, 2018 22:05:46 GMT
I'd always try to avoid that situation, because it'd feel like you'd be missing out on content. I'd love it, however, if they did something more similar to how they handled Alistair in DAO, who leaves the party if you recruit Loghain. So for you, does it boil down to gaining something in return; to make up for the loss (ie. a companion)?
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Post by shriekalpha on Oct 4, 2018 0:44:31 GMT
I actually really enjoy it when your companions turn on you. It adds to immersion and role playing when a companion leaves or attacks you by creating a powerful character moment, as well as showing the consequences of their behavior. I would rather the game be created in a way that it is impossible to complete the game without losing companions, to add weight to your decisions, and for the game not to end up like the ME2 suicide mission, where beyond the first play through, the only way to get people killed was to intentionally try to.
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Post by Walter Black on Oct 4, 2018 20:49:15 GMT
I mostly liked how they handled companions in DAI. With the exception of Solas, Varric and Cassandra (and Vivienne if recruited) who are there for thier own personal feelings of responsibility, most other companions have the potential to leave you if you go too far in earning thier disapproval. But I like how that disapproval can be mitigated if the player goes through the trouble of either talking to them or completing certain side quests. Gives a nice sense of reward for that effort I put in. There were some characters who were set in thier mindset and beliefs, and those who had thier beliefs change or alter overtime due to personal crisis. Still though, it could be improved upon: How about allowing use to kick companions out? As of right now only Sera had that option, and they could even have consequences for it for certain companions. For example, if I kicked out Vivienne the Inquisition could have suffered a massive influence reduction, war table operations, or additional difficulties durring certain main quests.
And even though I approve of allowing the player to mitigate disapproval for some companions, there should be some rare options that instantly make a companion want to leave you regardless of the approval you had with that companion previously. I agree that kicking out Companions should cost you resources and story branches, but I slightly disagree with your Vivienne example. Throughout Inquisition, she tells us of her vast influence with loyal Circle mages and the nobility. But outside of a few War Table missions (missions which IMO, Josephine or Leliana could've handled just as easily) and minor NPCs, we rarely see anyone backing up her claims. In hindsight, it struck me as Fridge Brilliance that the Iron Lady talks a big Game, but doesn't necessarily have the clout to back it up. Which is why she needs us more than we need her .
I've never understood this argument, since you can always see the alternate paths on your next characters. Do you have have to see everything on every playthrough ?
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N6
Just a flip of the coin.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by Sanunes on Oct 5, 2018 5:43:00 GMT
I've never understood this argument, since you can always see the alternate paths on your next characters. Do you have have to see everything on every playthrough ? You are making the assumption that people play a game more then once. Its the minority that do that and I think that is why BioWare hasn't had a lot of branching paths in their games because BioWare as a company has a high percentage of people that finish their games if my memory is working tonight and that is a 50/50 shot I think BioWare has around a 40% completion rate for their games. Compared to an expectation of 10% to 20% for most games. So a lot of people would want to see everything on each trip through the game because they only play the game once, if they complete it at all. Edit: I forgot Links they are old, but this isn't something reported all the time. BioWare completion rates pre-Inquisition2011 Kotaku article on game completion
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Pokemario
N3
First of the Dalish
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda
XBL Gamertag: Pokemario
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Post by Pokemario on Oct 5, 2018 19:37:59 GMT
I've never understood this argument, since you can always see the alternate paths on your next characters. Do you have have to see everything on every playthrough ?
The Loghain/Alistair situation in Origins leads to alternate paths, which I'm more than okay with. Not recruiting someone or having them leave doesn't lead to an alternate path whatsoever, it simply deprives you of content. Especially since a a lot of the focus that is put into BioWare games goes into their characters.
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Pokemario
N3
First of the Dalish
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda
XBL Gamertag: Pokemario
Posts: 311 Likes: 540
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Post by Pokemario on Oct 5, 2018 19:49:13 GMT
I'd always try to avoid that situation, because it'd feel like you'd be missing out on content. I'd love it, however, if they did something more similar to how they handled Alistair in DAO, who leaves the party if you recruit Loghain. So for you, does it boil down to gaining something in return; to make up for the loss (ie. a companion)? Hmm, not exactly. I didn't have a problem with how DA2 handled companions leaving either, since they only actually left your side at the very end of the game, once their story arcs were pretty much complete. In the end, what matters to me is to not feel like I'd be missing out on content. DAO did that when it came to Alistair leaving by giving me Loghain, DA2 did that by making companions leave only once everything was already said and done.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Oct 5, 2018 21:37:44 GMT
Not recruiting someone or having them leave doesn't lead to an alternate path whatsoever, it simply deprives you of content. I think players should be allowed to decide for themselves whether losing that content matters to them. I don't recruit Zevran in DAO, Iron Bull in DAI, and I allowed Isabela to leave (without even doing the book quest) in DA2. Similarly, I don't hear a majority of banter in the game because I take around my preferred crew. In a recent DAO play, I didn't bother with gifts and missed out on several follower quests because I never became friendly with them. I don't feel like I'm deprived of anything; I didn't care about that content in the first place. Or, related, that method of play suited my RP and I allowed the chips to fall where they may. I don't need many grand, sweeping choices that shape the world. I would like smaller choices that allow me to RP in the manner I choose.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Oct 7, 2018 3:01:28 GMT
There's no such thing as a "morally good" Templar, so he can feel free to hit the bricks.
In fact not only should companions be free to leave, I should be able to eject them from the party. Also life.
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Post by fylimar on Oct 7, 2018 20:11:40 GMT
Looks like I'm on the other side here. I think it's incredibly stupid that Oghren, Sera and whoever else will just up and leave because they don't like you. It's the end of the world and I made you mad? Oooh diddums. GET OVER IT. That's always how I've felt. I much prefer them to stay out of duty, but hate you. Give me an argument. Give me snark. Let them mutter under their breath as banter and make an alternative cutscene (like Cass being drunk in the tavern). I think that's much better than just leaving and not being in the game anymore. I agree to some extent. I think it fits some characters to just leave, like Dorian or Viv, who are very proud people. But otherwise I agree with you: it's the end of the world, so buckle up and get over it .
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Post by witchcocktor on Oct 8, 2018 14:43:31 GMT
I feel like if the story is about saving the world, these companions that joined me to specifically save the world, can't just disappear just because we don't agree on mage rights. A good middle ground would be like your companion leaving, but being available for main story quests that deal with saving the world. If you are teaming up with me with the same goal in mind, the goal can't just disappear just because we don't agree on something.
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Post by Walter Black on Oct 8, 2018 18:59:27 GMT
There's no such thing as a "morally good" Templar, so he can feel free to hit the bricks.
So who exactly are supposed to protect innocent mundane citizens when Abominations and/or psychotic mages go on rampages? There will never be enough "good" Mage Cops since mages are a genetically recessive minority, so that's out. If bringing down the Veil does make all survivors mages, then the previous mages are no longer special snowflakes, but just more spoiled nobles and layabouts that need to get real jobs . Or do all normals who had nothing to do with mage oppression need to pay along with the ones that actually did? That simple self defense, when against a mage, is now automatically a hate crime ?
Oh really? What if the "mandatory and protected" Gay Knight in Shining Armor opposes your decisions ? Or are your PCs automatically perfect, so anyone who disagrees with them are evil by default ?
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Post by Noxluxe on Oct 8, 2018 21:30:11 GMT
I love the idea of companions holding us accountable for our actions, but it's kind of contingent upon us being able to make informed decisions about what our characters do and say beforehand.
If dialogue and action was chosen in the form of, say, a wheel with vague and sometimes misleading summaries of their different natures, it'd be hard to know when your character may randomly decide to do or say something that could mortally offend a party member without you ever meaning to or having any way to control it beforehand.
Likewise, in the real world there are such things as tact, clear and versatile communication and shared reasoning. Things that might and should help you navigate sensitive topics and situations without making the people affected feel like you're undermining their causes or values or feelings just because you have to do something that, on the surface, may seem to contradict them. Communication in the form of aforementioned wheel would also make such finesse very hard to achieve, even though they're things we all do every day to make the world go round and should come into play any time an apparent conflict of interest arises.
If dialogue came in the form of... well... a tree, with different branches growing clearly and distinctly and intertwining near-organically to form a complex web of expression and responsiveness... Yeah, that might work and be awesome.
And yes, if they were allowed to hold us responsible, then it should go both ways. We should be able to call companions on their behavior, and kick them out of the party if they did more harm than good to our minds.
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Post by Walter Black on Oct 8, 2018 22:32:41 GMT
Looks like I'm on the other side here. I think it's incredibly stupid that Oghren, Sera and whoever else will just up and leave because they don't like you. It's the end of the world and I made you mad? Oooh diddums. GET OVER IT. That's always how I've felt. I much prefer them to stay out of duty, but hate you. Give me an argument. Give me snark. Let them mutter under their breath as banter and make an alternative cutscene (like Cass being drunk in the tavern). I think that's much better than just leaving and not being in the game anymore. I agree to some extent. I think it fits some characters to just leave, like Dorian or Viv, who are very proud people. But otherwise I agree with you: it's the end of the world, so buckle up and get over it . Really? If Earth was being invaded by seemingly hostile aliens, and the allied commander of the human resistance turned out to be another Hitler or Bin Laden, you'd buckle up and get over it? If they committed war crimes, threw away troops and needlessly sacrificed civilians when better alternatives were available, and first and foremost tailored his or her strategies to make sure they and their cronies personally came out on top in the end, you wouldn't think you could do a better job fighting the aliens on your own?
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Post by pessimistpanda on Oct 9, 2018 0:05:28 GMT
There's no such thing as a "morally good" Templar, so he can feel free to hit the bricks.
So who exactly are supposed to protect innocent mundane citizens when Abominations and/or psychotic mages go on rampages? There will never be enough "good" Mage Cops since mages are a genetically recessive minority, so that's out. If bringing down the Veil does make all survivors mages, then the previous mages are no longer special snowflakes, but just more spoiled nobles and layabouts that need to get real jobs . Or do all normals who had nothing to do with mage oppression need to pay along with the ones that actually did? That simple self defense, when against a mage, is now automatically a hate crime ?
Oh really? What if the "mandatory and protected" Gay Knight in Shining Armor opposes your decisions ? Or are your PCs automatically perfect, so anyone who disagrees with them are evil by default ? If templars ever actually did anything to protect "mundane citizens", you might have a point. But they don't do that. From the moment of their conception, they have always been a private army built to safeguard the interests of the chantry. Pre-emptively enslaving people for things they MIGHT do, btw, is not "self-defense". Also, I have no particular interest in a gay "knight" archetype, you're just lumping me in with other gay posters who wanted one. And a character being gay would not prevent me from taking action if I found their speech and actions reprehensible. You think I wouldn't kick Milo Yiannopoulos into the sun if I had the power to do so? I fucking would.
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Post by BearKingReborn on Oct 9, 2018 0:17:11 GMT
A post has been edited to remove a personal attack/insult.
Keep that kind of thing out of here, thank you.
Believing an attack to be accurate does not confer dispensation to carry it out.
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melbella
N6
Trouble-shooting Space Diva
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: melbella
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Post by melbella on Oct 9, 2018 0:21:26 GMT
Or are your PCs automatically perfect, so anyone who disagrees with them are evil by default ? My PCs are perfect and anyone who disagrees with them needs to get stuffed. Or at least stfu.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Oct 9, 2018 4:40:55 GMT
Oh really? What if the "mandatory and protected" Gay Knight in Shining Armor opposes your decisions ? Or are your PCs automatically perfect, so anyone who disagrees with them are evil by default ? That's rather presumptuous of you. You took a remark about templars and turned it around to romance when (1) you have no idea of Panda's preferences for romance, and (2) the discussion had nothing whatsoever to do with romance, sexuality, tropes, or the gay KISA (that some gay players want). In fact not only should companions be free to leave, I should be able to eject them from the party. Also life. Extending the thought here: does this mean you're not one of those that wants followers and/or LI to have plot relevance? Here I'm thinking of the Alistair/Morrigan/Anders/Solas types. I don't believe you can have plot relevant followers/LI while also being allowed to kick them out or kill them at will. The missing person would require too many resources to work around. It worked out decently for Anders. And I believe you can kick out Morrigan, but she still sneaks into your room and offers the ritual because she's a "sneaky witch-thief" and can do that. But I think it requires a particular set of circumstances. There's no way of working around Alistair's involvement, for example.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Oct 9, 2018 7:21:41 GMT
Extending the thought here: does this mean you're not one of those that wants followers and/or LI to have plot relevance? Here I'm thinking of the Alistair/Morrigan/Anders/Solas types. I don't believe you can have plot relevant followers/LI while also being allowed to kick them out or kill them at will. The missing person would require too many resources to work around. It worked out decently for Anders. And I believe you can kick out Morrigan, but she still sneaks into your room and offers the ritual because she's a "sneaky witch-thief" and can do that. But I think it requires a particular set of circumstances. There's no way of working around Alistair's involvement, for example. Well I'm not that invested in the issue, tbh. If Dragon Age was being produced exactly to my specifications, it would be a 100% completely different game. To an extent, I have to either accept that the company has a particular vision they want to pursue, or not purchase the game.
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Post by fylimar on Oct 9, 2018 7:55:22 GMT
I agree to some extent. I think it fits some characters to just leave, like Dorian or Viv, who are very proud people. But otherwise I agree with you: it's the end of the world, so buckle up and get over it . Really? If Earth was being invaded by seemingly hostile aliens, and the allied commander of the human resistance turned out to be another Hitler or Bin Laden, you'd buckle up and get over it? If they committed war crimes, threw away troops and needlessly sacrificed civilians when better alternatives were available, and first and foremost tailored his or her strategies to make sure they and their cronies personally came out on top in the end, you wouldn't think you could do a better job fighting the aliens on your own? Yeah well, in that case, they should still do something against the alien invaders and deal with wannabe Hitler after that. But your example is exaggerated from what I know of the ability to play an evil inqui. Many players were complaining that you can't play a truely evil inqui, so I don't think mini Hitler inqui is a thing. I could be wrong though, I normally don't play evil characters, selfish sometimes, but not downright evil ones. And hey, I would have loved if a character, that leaves the inquisition, would have build his or her own troop against Cory, but sadly, that probably won't happen in the new game too.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 9, 2018 18:16:40 GMT
I could be wrong though, I normally don't play evil characters, selfish sometimes, but not downright evil ones. Neither do I and it seems to me from what I have seen on You Tube that it was more a case of Inquisitors who did things that certain people objected to strongly but were not necessarily immoral. To take a case in point is what you do in the Temple of Mythal. Now clearly if you are playing safe, you are going to waste time dancing around on the pretty tiles rather than go straight after Cory's lieutenant, particularly if you are a Dalish Inquisitor, but the fact is that while you are doing this Cory's squad could be getting to what they seek before you and outside your troops are still dying fighting not only Venatori and Red Templars but the Sentinels as well. So instead of dancing on the tiles, many choose to jump down into the basement after the lieutenant. This means it is impossible to come to terms with Abelas. Even if you do dance on the pretty tiles you can still turn down Abelas' offer, fight the sentinels and kill him. Two people who seem to strongly object to this are Solas (unsurprisingly) and Dorian. If your previous actions have resulted in negative approval by these two, then it is possible to punch them for what they say to the Inquisitor at this point. Yet none of those previous actions could downright be described as evil, more ruthless but is that sufficient reason to abandon the fight against Corypheus? Mind you, is punching someone really justified simply because they speak their mind? Of course, despite being punched, Solas doesn't because he is working to his own agenda but Dorian does. I don't think there was anything the Inquisitor could do as evil as the Warden trading the soul of a young boy for the knowledge of blood magic, or letting a slaver walk away with his elven captives for similar power. This to me was far worse than corrupting the ashes, yet whilst you get disapproval from characters I don't believe anyone actually leaves you for it (although of course they wouldn't know about the deal with the demon since it takes place in the Fade but they do see you using blood magic). However, presumably the majority of the time they did seem to feel that working with the "Hitler" Warden was necessary to save the world. Hawkes companions though had no such excuse. I still feel that certain characters, in particular Sebastian, should have walked away if Hawke gives Fenris back to his master or becomes a blood mage. Saving Kirkwall from the Qunari does not seem sufficient justification for doing these things in the eyes of a Chantry faithful person.
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