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Post by Reznore on Oct 29, 2018 14:13:04 GMT
Inquisition had a number of design choices, you're a holy hero of salvation and you're going to save the world, and the Inquisition is going to be popular. You have a couple of failed mission/failed inquisition screen during some main missions...it was kind of a neat idea although it could be frustrating. You could have a mildy ruthless inquisitor, as in chopping heads and being an ass. But those are self contained stuff, mostly it just influence companions.
There's no ending where the Inquisition/Inquisitor is feared...I don't think it would have been too possible mainly because you're stuck with Josi, Cullen, Leliana and Cass. You can have a ruthless Leliana but that's it.
I hope in DA4, we'll have less structure, meaning for example main goal = stop Solas, but Tevinter is a playground. You're not there to "restore order" or even make things better as an end goal.
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Post by parsival on Oct 29, 2018 17:54:18 GMT
One problem I think Bioware games tend to have is that there is no reason to be ruthless. It is hard to play an ends justify the means character, who is willing to make sacrifices for a better outcome, when you can be friendly, and take all of the idealistic choices and face no consequences for it.
Remember that the ability to return to a previous save point after getting killed is not available in real life. A lot of the more 'ruthless' options in the Dragon age games allow combat to be bypassed, thus enabling the leading character to progress more smoothly. Imagine if a player was on a harder difficulty level and had to start the whole game every time they were killed in combat, going back to the beginning. I suspect a lot more would start leaving Redcliffe to its fate or making deals with Imshael and other demons, if that were the case.
What I'm saying is that the impossibility (through the 'game save' mechanism) of actually failing in battle, is very easy to forget.
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Post by arvaarad on Oct 29, 2018 18:03:46 GMT
One problem I think Bioware games tend to have is that there is no reason to be ruthless. It is hard to play an ends justify the means character, who is willing to make sacrifices for a better outcome, when you can be friendly, and take all of the idealistic choices and face no consequences for it.
Remember that the ability to return to a previous save point after getting killed is not available in real life. A lot of the more 'ruthless' options in the Dragon age games allow combat to be bypassed, thus enabling the leading character to progress more smoothly. Imagine if a player was on a harder difficulty level and had to start the whole game every time they were killed in combat, going back to the beginning. I suspect a lot more would start leaving Redcliffe to its fate or making deals with Imshael and other demons, if that were the case.
What I'm saying is that the impossibility (through the 'game save' mechanism) of actually failing in battle, is very easy to forget.
This is a key point for sure! Siding with the templars in DA2 feels like a pointless dick move when you’re a player, because (1) you know the fights are the same and (2) you know you can win them all regardless. But as Hawke, without metagame knowledge, it could be their best shot at saving Bethany. Much easier to convince your allies to make one exception, vs. hoping you can defeat them all as enemies. And if Hawke sided with the mages, even if they win, Hawke and Bethany now have to go on the run for the rest of their lives. Yet from the player’s perspective, there are no benefits to the ruthless approach, because they’re not going to be the one living with the consequences of failing the noble path.
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Post by Walter Black on Oct 29, 2018 20:40:00 GMT
When the writers have the antagonist just sit on their ass while we take our time working to defeat them, that's just bad writing. When no one sees a totally benevolent PC as a naive schmuck and back stabs them for their own greed and/or prejudices, that's bad writing. When no one abandons us because they are simply too cynical, fearful, or broken to believe in the better future we propose, that's bad writing. When the ones who do have faith don't suffer heavy losses due to the enemies' superior numbers, resources and experience, that's bad writing. When the writers decide to completely ignore complex and strong personalities, centuries of ingrained cultural attitudes. logic, basic human nature and the tone and history of the franchise, all in the name of wish fulfillment and player entitlement, that is objectively bad writing. It's one thing to talk about the validity of "evil" PCs, but more often than not, ruthless decisions can just as easily be attributed to pragmatism and desperation. Within the context of the story, our characters do not have the luxury of multiple save states or looking up the wiki. Do you take the "moral" option that feels good, but risks everyone in that it might not work? Or do you take the ruthless option that, while grim and bloody, you know for a fact will work? Sometimes there are no Happy Third Option, only the lesser of two evils. "But the writers control the characters and plot, they can give us Megahappy options!" Sure, they could. But then they would no longer be creating an honest, adult story, but fantasy for children. And not even good children's fantasy, since learning to make hard choices, put up with people and situations you don't like, and accept loss are essential parts of growing up. In the end, the brutal calculus of war is just the ugly truth, and the notion that reality must bend for us just because we are the players is a beautiful lie. A convenient, comforting, and empowering lie, but a lie nonetheless.
Honestly, if among the all the slaving and blood sacrificing Magisters, totalitarian and brainwashing Qunari, vengeful revolutionaries, Machiavellian Ambassidoria, Solas and his forces, alien Titans and possible Evanris we don't suffer some negative consequences from obviously "good" choices, I will have lost what little respect for the Dragon Age writers I have left.
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Post by Iddy on Nov 23, 2018 14:11:58 GMT
It’s morally equivalent to performing a blood sacrifice of 100 non-hostile, helpful Qunari (plus any civilian casualties caused by the Venatori running amok) in order to save the lives of 7 friends. Even Petrice doesn’t have those numbers. That's really only if your Inquisitor doesn't see "helpful" and "Qunari" as oxymorons, though. If you see them as a powerful enemy force that's trying to play you, attempting to winnow your mercenaries and steal back the valuable asset that is Bull, playing the long game for an eventual hostile takeover of southern Thedas, then they're..... just a bunch of enemies and you may as well be blowing up a Venatori stronghold. There is also the option of having the Inquisitor only act based on evidence. Sure, s/he can think the Qunari have some plot but how would s/he know?
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Post by Catilina on Nov 23, 2018 14:35:24 GMT
Remember that the ability to return to a previous save point after getting killed is not available in real life. A lot of the more 'ruthless' options in the Dragon age games allow combat to be bypassed, thus enabling the leading character to progress more smoothly. Imagine if a player was on a harder difficulty level and had to start the whole game every time they were killed in combat, going back to the beginning. I suspect a lot more would start leaving Redcliffe to its fate or making deals with Imshael and other demons, if that were the case.
What I'm saying is that the impossibility (through the 'game save' mechanism) of actually failing in battle, is very easy to forget. This is a key point for sure! Siding with the templars in DA2 feels like a pointless dick move when you’re a player, because (1) you know the fights are the same and (2) you know you can win them all regardless. But as Hawke, without metagame knowledge, it could be their best shot at saving Bethany. Much easier to convince your allies to make one exception, vs. hoping you can defeat them all as enemies. And if Hawke sided with the mages, even if they win, Hawke and Bethany now have to go on the run for the rest of their lives. Yet from the player’s perspective, there are no benefits to the ruthless approach, because they’re not going to be the one living with the consequences of failing the noble path. Without metagame knowledge Hawke only knows, that Meredith wants to kill every mage – and Bethany stays with the mages. AGAINST the Templars, against Hawke, if siding with them. How Hawke knows, that in the battle the Templars – whom s/he allies – will not kill Bethany in the battle – or after... If s/he protects the mages – s/he will have a chance to keep an eye on Bethany. Not mentioned, Meredith not that reliable "ally" – seems totally mad when we meet her at the Gallows.
This is why mage Hawke's only reason to siding the Templars is Templar-Carver, if doesn't want to face with him in the battle, and wants to protect him. Not that strong reason like in Bethany's case, because Carver chose the Templar way, Bethany and mage Hawke didn't choose to being a mage, ut still a valid reason.
Not mentioned: to siding with Templars and having Bethany in the Circle is absolutely unrespectful toward Bethany. A rough betrayal. It means: "I know better what is the best to you – even if I should to fight with you, and no matter what do you want." Bethany's adult and not idiot, she knows, what she want. Hawke don't have to protect her, against her...
Hawke can chose the Templars, Meredith's madness – but can't say, that this was for Bethany's sake. This is only for Hawke. This is a selfish decision.
Without metaknowledge Templar carver the only reason to ally with Meredith. A strongly emotional and absolutely wrong valid reason. The most tragical end to a mage Hawke.
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Post by arvaarad on Nov 23, 2018 16:15:08 GMT
This is a key point for sure! Siding with the templars in DA2 feels like a pointless dick move when you’re a player, because (1) you know the fights are the same and (2) you know you can win them all regardless. But as Hawke, without metagame knowledge, it could be their best shot at saving Bethany. Much easier to convince your allies to make one exception, vs. hoping you can defeat them all as enemies. And if Hawke sided with the mages, even if they win, Hawke and Bethany now have to go on the run for the rest of their lives. Yet from the player’s perspective, there are no benefits to the ruthless approach, because they’re not going to be the one living with the consequences of failing the noble path. If s/he protects the mages – s/he will have a chance to keep an eye on Bethany. Only if they win. If Hawke sides with the mages and they lose, Hawke can’t keep an eye in Bethany... they’re dead. And so are the rest of Bethany’s allies. We as players have a really skewed idea of the cost/benefit analysis, because we only have to consider outcomes where Hawke’s side wins. In-universe, Hawke also has to weigh all the outcomes where they lose.
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Post by Catilina on Nov 23, 2018 17:30:40 GMT
If s/he protects the mages – s/he will have a chance to keep an eye on Bethany. Only if they win. If Hawke sides with the mages and they lose, Hawke can’t keep an eye in Bethany... they’re dead. And so are the rest of Bethany’s allies. We as players have a really skewed idea of the cost/benefit analysis, because we only have to consider outcomes where Hawke’s side wins. In-universe, Hawke also has to weigh all the outcomes where they lose. Not. Hawke fight on Bethany's side. S/HE have a chance to keep an eye on Bethany. If they lose, they can run together – or die. So: if the don't die, Hawke still can kepp an eye on Bethany. If Hawke side with Meredith, at the moment s/he doesn't know, what will happen with the mages, including Bethany. And again: Bethany is a mage, and wants to fight for the mages. If Hawke sides AGAINST her, only proves, that doesn't give a shit to her will, only interest to protect her, just for him/herself, not for Bethany: okay, sister, I saved your life, (I'm great as always), now go back to your prison and be a grateful, good girl, and I promise you, you will get cookie to your everyday lunch. This solution only serves Hawke's interest, never Bethany's. Hawke even don't know, that Meredith will let his/her sister alive... Hawke can side with Meredith but not for Bethany's sake, rather against it.
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Post by Lebanese Dude on Nov 24, 2018 1:48:42 GMT
The fact that ruthless options are often relegated to roleplaying does not diminish their value. You are animating your character in a way that demonstrates and reinforces the personality you picked for them.
Also there have always been consequences for ruthlessness, most evidently in major story arc and companion relationships, which are arguably the two most important aspects of Dragon Age games.
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theascendent
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
PSN: The Ascendent
Posts: 482 Likes: 629
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Post by theascendent on Nov 24, 2018 9:31:45 GMT
I think that we are faced with another example of when being "ruthless" is seen as being Chaotic Evil, or more affectionately known as "Chaotic Stupid". Being ruthless is ultimately pragmatism taken to the most extreme level.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Nov 25, 2018 21:01:54 GMT
I think that we are faced with another example of when being "ruthless" is seen as being Chaotic Evil, or more affectionately known as "Chaotic Stupid". Being ruthless is ultimately pragmatism taken to the most extreme level. Where do you get that definition from, exactly? There are plenty of practical benefits to being merciful or generous.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
PSN: The Ascendent
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Post by theascendent on Nov 25, 2018 23:08:58 GMT
I suppose pragmatism can be used in more 'good' ways, but in my mind pragmatism is almost always opposed by idealism. But that's just me.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Nov 26, 2018 2:42:11 GMT
I suppose pragmatism can be used in more 'good' ways, but in my mind pragmatism is almost always opposed by idealism. But that's just me. I mean, it's a very common perception, largely fuelled by "dark and gritty" media (looking at you, GoT) that claims to be realistic, but actually just arbitrarily makes every nominally "good" character behave incredibly stupidly, while rewarding naked sociopathy. IRL, the hypothesis that "ruthless = pragmatic/smart" isn't borne out by the facts. Ruling through intimidation and violence might get you by in the short term, but successful political leaders know that the best way to stay in power is to be liked, which is difficult (though not impossible) when you behave like an a-hole. Even ruthless leaders IRL understand the importance of creating a likeable image. WE all know that North Korea is a dictatorship, and that Kim Jong Un is a tyrant. But the people living there don't know that, and the government goes to great lengths to deceive them.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2018 4:24:19 GMT
I suppose pragmatism can be used in more 'good' ways, but in my mind pragmatism is almost always opposed by idealism. But that's just me. I mean, it's a very common perception, largely fuelled by "dark and gritty" media (looking at you, GoT) that claims to be realistic, but actually just arbitrarily makes every nominally "good" character behave incredibly stupidly, while rewarding naked sociopathy. IRL, the hypothesis that "ruthless = pragmatic/smart" isn't borne out by the facts. Ruling through intimidation and violence might get you by in the short term, but successful political leaders know that the best way to stay in power is to be liked, which is difficult (though not impossible) when you behave like an a-hole. Even ruthless leaders IRL understand the importance of creating a likeable image. WE all know that North Korea is a dictatorship, and that Kim Jong Un is a tyrant. But the people living there don't know that, and the government goes to great lengths to deceive them.That last part is actually wrong. The people do know what's going on but are too scared to do anything about it. Kim Jong Un (like his father and fathers father) keeps them under control through pure intimidation due to the fact that he just doesn't kill the individual, but their entire family also. North Koreans aren't as stupid as a lot of outsiders like to believe.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Nov 26, 2018 5:06:14 GMT
I mean, it's a very common perception, largely fuelled by "dark and gritty" media (looking at you, GoT) that claims to be realistic, but actually just arbitrarily makes every nominally "good" character behave incredibly stupidly, while rewarding naked sociopathy. IRL, the hypothesis that "ruthless = pragmatic/smart" isn't borne out by the facts. Ruling through intimidation and violence might get you by in the short term, but successful political leaders know that the best way to stay in power is to be liked, which is difficult (though not impossible) when you behave like an a-hole. Even ruthless leaders IRL understand the importance of creating a likeable image. WE all know that North Korea is a dictatorship, and that Kim Jong Un is a tyrant. But the people living there don't know that, and the government goes to great lengths to deceive them.That last part is actually wrong. The people do know what's going on but are too scared to do anything about it. Kim Jong Un (like his father and fathers father) keeps them under control through pure intimidation due to the fact that he just doesn't kill the individual, but their entire family also. North Koreans aren't as stupid as a lot of outsiders like to believe. Well I didn't mean to imply that they are stupid, merely that they are constantly subjected to propaganda, and are largely cut off from contact with other nations. But I'll concede that North Korea may have been a poor example, nevertheless, history is rife with tyrannical dictators, and I think it's fair to say that most of them got there by (at least initially) cultivating a likeable public persona, and claiming to be acting in the nation's interest, rather than behaving like Joffrey Baratheon.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
PSN: The Ascendent
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Post by theascendent on Nov 26, 2018 13:33:24 GMT
The issue wasn't that Joffrey was evil, he was a spoiled, stupid child who was never taught how to run a country. Tywin Lannister is an amazing example of a pragmatic, ruthless and effective ruler. He did a much better job running the Seven Kingdoms than Aeyrs ever did when he was Hand of the King. Of course his faults eventually caught up with him and resulted in his death, but no one is without flaws. A healthy mix of pragmatism and idealism would make an ideal ruler, but finding that balance is tricky if not outright impossible for certain individuals. Some of the greatest villains are those who are able to hide their flaws and deceive the public. Lex Luthor was elected as President of the United States, Norman Osborne (the Green Goblin) managed to take control of SHIELD.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Nov 26, 2018 23:47:01 GMT
The issue wasn't that Joffrey was evil, he was a spoiled, stupid child who was never taught how to run a country. Joffrey was a psychopath that derived pleasure from causing pain. He had no sympathy or empathy for anyone. You can be spoiled, stupid, and ignorant without also being a psychopath.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
PSN: The Ascendent
Posts: 482 Likes: 629
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Post by theascendent on Nov 27, 2018 0:51:10 GMT
The issue wasn't that Joffrey was evil, he was a spoiled, stupid child who was never taught how to run a country. Joffrey was a psychopath that derived pleasure from causing pain. He had no sympathy or empathy for anyone. You can be spoiled, stupid, and ignorant without also being a psychopath. Very true. I wonder if his psychopathy was a result of nature or nurture.
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Trouble-shooting Space Diva
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: melbella
Prime Posts: 2186
Prime Likes: 5778
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Trouble-shooting Space Diva
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Post by melbella on Nov 27, 2018 1:47:24 GMT
I wonder if his psychopathy was a result of nature or nurture. I'd say the latter. Ignored or berated by his not!father and coddled by his sociopathic mother. How the other two kids turned into decent human beings I have no idea.
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Post by alanc9 on Nov 27, 2018 14:02:09 GMT
I mean, it's a very common perception, largely fuelled by "dark and gritty" media (looking at you, GoT) that claims to be realistic, but actually just arbitrarily makes every nominally "good" character behave incredibly stupidly, while rewarding naked sociopathy. IRL, the hypothesis that "ruthless = pragmatic/smart" isn't borne out by the facts. Ruling through intimidation and violence might get you by in the short term, but successful political leaders know that the best way to stay in power is to be liked, which is difficult (though not impossible) when you behave like an a-hole. Even ruthless leaders IRL understand the importance of creating a likeable image. WE all know that North Korea is a dictatorship, and that Kim Jong Un is a tyrant. But the people living there don't know that, and the government goes to great lengths to deceive them.That last part is actually wrong. The people do know what's going on but are too scared to do anything about it. Kim Jong Un (like his father and fathers father) keeps them under control through pure intimidation due to the fact that he just doesn't kill the individual, but their entire family also. North Koreans aren't as stupid as a lot of outsiders like to believe. Do we have good data on that?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2018 14:23:39 GMT
That last part is actually wrong. The people do know what's going on but are too scared to do anything about it. Kim Jong Un (like his father and fathers father) keeps them under control through pure intimidation due to the fact that he just doesn't kill the individual, but their entire family also. North Koreans aren't as stupid as a lot of outsiders like to believe. Do we have good data on that? Actually yeah but I can't point to just one area. Many a people over the years have tried to escape through the border even though they know that if caught their entire family will be punished for it. Think about that...that doesn't sound like some type of drone to me. Plus we've had dozens (if not more) of people get in to North Korea and study their culture (of course under the watchful eye of the government) and report back on there findings. I'm sure there are some people who are mind fucked so to speak but that's everywhere (even here in the US). When I was in South Korea we got a secret clearance security briefing that delved into this subject some. It basically broke down NC's military capabilities, how long they could keep the war going and the people overall. I can't get in to most of it but I can say that the people are a lot smarter than most outsiders give them. When your entire family is under threat you tend to keep in line...
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