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Post by Terminator Force on Dec 15, 2018 12:56:31 GMT
The debate is on the shape of the Earth, not conspiracy. But you're free to speculate about the conspiracy of it all if you'd like. It's called random flat Earth chit chat for a reason. You made the argument of conspiracy with your "knowledge is power" assertion as to why people would keep the "real" shape of the Earth a secret. You fail to justify who is behind the conspiracy and what gain is made. As has been pointed out, ships gradually disappear as they go below the horizon does show the Earth is not flat. You can observe that with your own two eyes. Or are the ships sinking into the water and only give the appearance of going below the horizon? I'm sure the people behind the global conspiracy also created ships that go underwater and get everyone aboard every ship to lie about it, crew and passengers alike. You're just asserting ships go over the curvature of the Earth, can you back this claim up?
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Post by dmc1001 on Dec 15, 2018 14:28:20 GMT
You made the argument of conspiracy with your "knowledge is power" assertion as to why people would keep the "real" shape of the Earth a secret. You fail to justify who is behind the conspiracy and what gain is made. As has been pointed out, ships gradually disappear as they go below the horizon does show the Earth is not flat. You can observe that with your own two eyes. Or are the ships sinking into the water and only give the appearance of going below the horizon? I'm sure the people behind the global conspiracy also created ships that go underwater and get everyone aboard every ship to lie about it, crew and passengers alike. You're just asserting ships go over the curvature of the Earth, can you back this claim up? I've watched it happen, much like the experiments people have done that makes them believe the world is flat. I've seen the ships dip down as they got further away. Here, video proof.
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Post by Terminator Force on Dec 15, 2018 17:40:55 GMT
You're just asserting ships go over the curvature of the Earth, can you back this claim up? I've watched it happen, much like the experiments people have done that makes them believe the world is flat. I've seen the ships dip down as they got further away. Here, video proof.
Ah, that video takes me back. You see, ol' Termi was baller too once. Proud too, so proud that I dared not watch any of the flat Earth YT suggested nonsense. So when this video suggestion came up, I was all "Ah, a ball Earth proof I've heard about. Now's my chance to see video footage of it in action." But you won't believe what happened next after seeing that video... the next suggested video in line was this one; (Timestapped to relevant point. But can just skim through it quickly to get gist of it) And that's where my eyes finally opened with the thought "Maybe flat Earth isn't so crazy after all?" And fell down the rabbit hole of 24-7 non-stop research from every source I could find.
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Post by dmc1001 on Dec 15, 2018 18:01:11 GMT
Ah, that video takes me back. You see, ol' Termi was baller too once. Proud too, so proud that I dared not watch any of the flat Earth YT suggested nonsense. So when this video suggestion came up, I was all "Ah, a ball Earth proof I've heard about. Now's my chance to see video footage of it in action." But you won't believe what happened next after seeing that video... the next suggested video in line was this one; Actually, you're incorrect. I watched a lot of FE videos in an attempt to see what it was all about. Quite unconvincing.
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Post by Terminator Force on Dec 15, 2018 18:50:27 GMT
Ah, that video takes me back. You see, ol' Termi was baller too once. Proud too, so proud that I dared not watch any of the flat Earth YT suggested nonsense. So when this video suggestion came up, I was all "Ah, a ball Earth proof I've heard about. Now's my chance to see video footage of it in action." But you won't believe what happened next after seeing that video... the next suggested video in line was this one; Actually, you're incorrect. I watched a lot of FE videos in an attempt to see what it was all about. Quite unconvincing. You're always welcome to discuss any of it with me and see if your arguments hold up.
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Dec 15, 2018 19:35:35 GMT
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. The globe earth has extraordinary evidence supporting it - thousands of years of evidence.
The flat earth theory is far less at predicting astronomical observations, including shadow length. The flat earth theory is far less good at predicting EMR transmission range. The flat earth theory is far less good at predicting gravitational effects.
Every argument I have ever seen in favour of flat earth ignores some relevant and testable confounding factor (such as refraction, or parallax) in order to reach its conclusions.
This is just like how most ethical theories ignore the is-ought problem.
The world is complex, and it behooves us to imagine it complexly.
The capacity of people to believe what they prefer to be true rather than what the evidence shows to be likely (or even possible) seems to be without limit. A simple and comforting lie seems to be much more persuasive than a complex truth, and I don't see how to defeat that.
I hold degrees in both Philosophy and Astrophysics, so I find flat earthers extremely irritating: They use terrible reasoning to avoid easily available evidence.
But my biggest problem with flat earthers (and creationists) is that they argue against science as if science is some sort of ideology. It is not. Science is a process. There's no body of belief associated with science, and indeed belief only gets in the way.
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Post by Terminator Force on Dec 15, 2018 19:56:51 GMT
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. The globe earth has extraordinary evidence supporting it - thousands of years of evidence. The flat earth theory is far less at predicting astronomical observations, including shadow length. The flat earth theory is far less good at predicting EMR transmission range. The flat earth theory is far less good at predicting gravitational effects. Every argument I have ever seen in favour of flat earth ignores some relevant and testable confounding factor (such as refraction, or parallax) in order to reach its conclusions. This is just like how most ethical theories ignore the is-ought problem. The world is complex, and it behooves us to imagine it complexly. The capacity of people to believe what they prefer to be true rather than what the evidence shows to be likely (or even possible) seems to be without limit. A simple and comforting lie seems to be much more persuasive than a complex truth, and I don't see how to defeat that. I hold degrees in both Philosophy and Astrophysics, so I find flat earthers extremely irritating: They use terrible reasoning to avoid easily available evidence. But my biggest problem with flat earthers (and creationists) is that they argue against science as if science is some sort of ideology. It is not. Science is a process. There's no body of belief associated with science, and indeed belief only gets in the way. What's you're fave ball Earth proof?
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Post by dmc1001 on Dec 15, 2018 23:45:51 GMT
So, here's the thing. You want proof. Yet, when photographic and video evidence is provided, you claim it's fake. When astronauts say they've been to space, you say they're lying. When scientists outright tell you the Earth isn't flat you, again, say they're lying. Physics is a lie. Gravity is a lie. Astrophysics is a lie. Astronomers are covering things up. Cartographers, geographers, just spouting lies. Thing is, when we disregard science, all of our modern day buildings, electronics, nuclear power plants, airplanes can't exist. We wouldn't know why the sun shines. We wouldn't know how to treat cancer, diagnose illnesses, create video games, develop sports equipment. Math? Forget it. Have you really thought through the domino effects of what it means to have a flat Earth? I don't think you have. Life as we know it today would not exist. I know this won't get through to you. This conspiracy theory of yours runs so deep. The real issue here is that you believe everything you know is wrong. Secret organizations are behind strange plots for Reasons. Flat Earthers: Belief, Skepticism, and Denialism The sub-title reads: "When people reject facts, what do they really believe?" You deny all facts and insert stuff you made up. Even when the evidence is so overwhelming, you say it's wrong, it's a cover up and can provide no reason why anyone would do this. I tried to give you the benefit of doubt that logic and reason existed somewhere in your brain. It doesn't. It can't when you reject every single piece of evidence that proves the Earth is spherical. Go spend some time in psychotherapy. It'll help. Unless therapists are also in on the conspiracy.
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Dec 16, 2018 0:16:26 GMT
What's you're fave ball Earth proof? That's the wrong question, and it's the wrong question for two reasons: 1. Science never offers proof. Math has theorems. Science does not. Science can falsify, and falsify only. 2. The body of scientific evidence is sufficiently complex to prevent a neat and easily consumed package that works in an internet argument. In the absence of conclusive evidence, the only rational path leads to no conclusions. I encourage you to back up, discard any notion of a flat earth, and see if you can construct a body of evidence that can convince you of the earth's flatness. Failing that, does it matter to your life particularly if the earth is flat or round? Why do you care? Do you even know?
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Post by Terminator Force on Dec 16, 2018 0:48:32 GMT
What's you're fave ball Earth proof? 2. The body of scientific evidence Reification fallacy.
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Post by Terminator Force on Dec 16, 2018 1:07:34 GMT
So, here's the thing. You want proof. Yet, when photographic and video evidence is provided, you claim it's fake. When astronauts say they've been to space, you say they're lying. When scientists outright tell you the Earth isn't flat you, again, say they're lying. Physics is a lie. Gravity is a lie. Astrophysics is a lie. Astronomers are covering things up. Cartographers, geographers, just spouting lies. Thing is, when we disregard science, all of our modern day buildings, electronics, nuclear power plants, airplanes can't exist. We wouldn't know why the sun shines. We wouldn't know how to treat cancer, diagnose illnesses, create video games, develop sports equipment. Math? Forget it. Have you really thought through the domino effects of what it means to have a flat Earth? I don't think you have. Life as we know it today would not exist. I know this won't get through to you. This conspiracy theory of yours runs so deep. The real issue here is that you believe everything you know is wrong. Secret organizations are behind strange plots for Reasons. Flat Earthers: Belief, Skepticism, and Denialism The sub-title reads: "When people reject facts, what do they really believe?" You deny all facts and insert stuff you made up. Even when the evidence is so overwhelming, you say it's wrong, it's a cover up and can provide no reason why anyone would do this. I tried to give you the benefit of doubt that logic and reason existed somewhere in your brain. It doesn't. It can't when you reject every single piece of evidence that proves the Earth is spherical. Go spend some time in psychotherapy. It'll help. Unless therapists are also in on the conspiracy. “Arguments from authority carry little weight – authorities have made mistakes in the past. They will do so again in the future. Perhaps a better way to say it is that in science there are no authorities; at most, there are experts.”― Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the DarkLogic and reason is avoiding logical fallacies.
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Dec 16, 2018 7:55:33 GMT
2. The body of scientific evidence Reification fallacy. I was EXPLICITLY not using the abstract "body of evidence" as evidence. I was pointing out how that doesn't work. So don't accuse me of doing the thing I was actively avoiding doing. It's like you have this bag of fallacies ready to pull out whichever one fits bets without actually trying to have a discussion. (Incidentally, the popular school test instruction "choose the best answer" infuriates me - truth is a binary state). I see that you didn't even pretend to attempt to answer any of my questions.
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Dec 16, 2018 8:02:33 GMT
Logic and reason is avoiding logical fallacies. This is one of the worst definitions of "logic and reason" I have ever seen. Logic is a specific type of reasoning, one adhering to a formally defined system of inference. All possible such systems are incomplete (Gödel); in any given logical system, some answers are guaranteed not to be available. You are engaging in logical reasoning if and only if you are drawing conclusions every time the rules of inference permit it, but never any other conclusions.
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Post by Terminator Force on Dec 16, 2018 11:14:41 GMT
It's like you have this bag of fallacies ready to pull out whichever one fits bets without actually trying to have a discussion. Logical fallacies are non-arguments. Non-arguments. You can think of arguments as ways to gather information and to acquire new beliefs. ... But stating beliefs is not giving arguments! Things that may look like arguments but are not, and are thus misconstrued as arguments, are explanations, reports, instructions, and so on.
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Post by Terminator Force on Dec 16, 2018 11:27:57 GMT
Logic and reason is avoiding logical fallacies. Logic is a specific type of reasoning, one adhering to a formally defined system of inference. All possible such systems are incomplete (Gödel); in any given logical system, some answers are guaranteed not to be available. You asserting there's no guaranteed answers to the shape of the Earth?
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Post by Space Cowboy on Dec 16, 2018 12:35:51 GMT
It's like you have this bag of fallacies ready to pull out whichever one fits bets without actually trying to have a discussion. Whenever he can't "debunk" a "proof" he claims its just an assertion, or we are assuming something is true, then we point this out, he trots out his bag'o'logical fallacies, blissfully unaware of all the fallacies he commits, and all the assumptions he makes. He likes to claim something as "fact" that he has done nothing to prove in any way. Or he posts 'evidence' in the shape of graphs and videos that he thinks prove his point, but do not even come close. It's just like arguing with a creationist, because, that is what it is, biblical literalism. They can't admit the writers of their favourite book made a mistake, so they make up nonsense to defend it. As for people who are not religious but believe this nonsense anyway.. well, I wouldn't want to commit an ad hominem fallacy. Personally I think he's trolling us, and doesn't believe this nonsense he's spouting. But that's just me giving him the benefit of the doubt.
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Post by Terminator Force on Dec 16, 2018 12:53:40 GMT
It's like you have this bag of fallacies ready to pull out whichever one fits bets without actually trying to have a discussion. Whenever he can't "debunk" a "proof" he claims its just an assertion, or we are assuming something is true, then we point this out, he trots out his bag'o'logical fallacies, blissfully unaware of all the fallacies he commits, and all the assumptions he makes. He likes to claim something as "fact" that he has done nothing to prove in any way. Or he posts 'evidence' in the shape of graphs and videos that he thinks prove his point, but do not even come close. It's just like arguing with a creationist, because, that is what it is, biblical literalism. They can't admit the writers of their favourite book made a mistake, so they make up nonsense to defend it. As for people who are not religious but believe this nonsense anyway.. well, I wouldn't want to commit an ad hominem fallacy. Personally I think he's trolling us, and doesn't believe this nonsense he's spouting. But that's just me giving him the benefit of the doubt. I'm not claiming anything other then the world is obviously and observably flat. Wasn't arguing creationism either, just said the bible is a flat Earth book and other people's thoughts on it because this is the random flat Earth chit chat. You all are free to discuss anything flat Earth, don't have to debate or provide any evidence if you don't like to. Just post what makes you happy (even logical fallacies. But just know they're proof of nothing). And if I by chance make you unhappy, then let me know and I'll refrain.
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Post by Space Cowboy on Dec 16, 2018 13:28:44 GMT
Whenever he can't "debunk" a "proof" he claims its just an assertion, or we are assuming something is true, then we point this out, he trots out his bag'o'logical fallacies, blissfully unaware of all the fallacies he commits, and all the assumptions he makes. He likes to claim something as "fact" that he has done nothing to prove in any way. Or he posts 'evidence' in the shape of graphs and videos that he thinks prove his point, but do not even come close. It's just like arguing with a creationist, because, that is what it is, biblical literalism. They can't admit the writers of their favourite book made a mistake, so they make up nonsense to defend it. As for people who are not religious but believe this nonsense anyway.. well, I wouldn't want to commit an ad hominem fallacy. Personally I think he's trolling us, and doesn't believe this nonsense he's spouting. But that's just me giving him the benefit of the doubt. I'm not claiming anything other then the world is obviously and observably flat. You keep stating things like this as if they are facts. They aren't. It's a tad hypocritical to call others out on their 'asseertions' while constantly making your own.
You insist this "fact" is observable, yet you dismiss other observable evidence like the sun providing light and heat, in favour of some whackjob theory video you found on youtube.
And you've hand waved away any discussions of time zones and solar eclipses, presumably because you can't find any flat earth 'debunk' videos for it.
I'm not trying to have a debate, nor am I trying to prove anything, so couldn't care less if my 'arguments' are fallacies according to you. *shrug* I actually agree the Bible is a flat earth book. Millions of Christians disagree with us. lol.
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Post by Terminator Force on Dec 16, 2018 13:49:17 GMT
I'm not claiming anything other then the world is obviously and observably flat. You keep stating things like this as if they are facts. They aren't. It's a tad hypocritical to call others out on their 'asseertions' while constantly making your own.
You insist this "fact" is observable, yet you dismiss other observable evidence like the sun providing light and heat, in favour of some whackjob theory video you found on youtube.
And you've hand waved away any discussions of time zones and solar eclipses, presumably because you can't find any flat earth 'debunk' videos for it. The inverse square law of light is a natural law of nature. You're going to have to debunk this law of nature for the sun to work as the heliocentric model claims.
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Post by Space Cowboy on Dec 16, 2018 17:45:55 GMT
You keep stating things like this as if they are facts. They aren't. It's a tad hypocritical to call others out on their 'asseertions' while constantly making your own.
You insist this "fact" is observable, yet you dismiss other observable evidence like the sun providing light and heat, in favour of some whackjob theory video you found on youtube.
And you've hand waved away any discussions of time zones and solar eclipses, presumably because you can't find any flat earth 'debunk' videos for it. The inverse square law of light is a natural law of nature. You're going to have to debunk this law of nature for the sun to work as the heliocentric model claims. Or you simply don't understand why it doesn't apply in that case.
how about you prove that it does first, before asking me to 'debunk' it?
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Post by Terminator Force on Dec 16, 2018 17:58:09 GMT
The inverse square law of light is a natural law of nature. You're going to have to debunk this law of nature for the sun to work as the heliocentric model claims. Or you simply don't understand why it doesn't apply in that case.
how about you prove that it does first, before asking me to 'debunk' it?
Already proved it to you. Take your palm up close next to a light, but not too close so you can see your palm. Now while looking at your palm, slowly back away from light with your hand. Inverse square law of light in action.
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Post by Space Cowboy on Dec 16, 2018 18:07:54 GMT
Or you simply don't understand why it doesn't apply in that case.
how about you prove that it does first, before asking me to 'debunk' it?
Already proved it to you. Take your palm up close next to a light, but not too close so you can see your palm. Now while looking at your palm, slowly back away from light with your hand. Inverse square law of light in action. How is that at all relevant to the sun?
If that were in fact the case, is the sun hovering around ground level in order for light to reach us?
Stop asserting things you have no proof for.
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Post by Terminator Force on Dec 16, 2018 18:13:19 GMT
Already proved it to you. Take your palm up close next to a light, but not too close so you can see your palm. Now while looking at your palm, slowly back away from light with your hand. Inverse square law of light in action. How is that at all relevant to the sun?
If that were in fact the case, is the sun hovering around ground level in order for light to reach us?
Stop asserting things you have no proof for.
Further away you are from a light, the dimmer it gets. Therefore sun being 93 million miles debunked. Ditto for claim that we can see light years away.
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Post by Space Cowboy on Dec 16, 2018 19:08:25 GMT
How is that at all relevant to the sun?
If that were in fact the case, is the sun hovering around ground level in order for light to reach us?
Stop asserting things you have no proof for.
Further away you are from a light, the dimmer it gets. Therefore sun being 93 million miles debunked. Ditto for claim that we can see light years away. Nonsense. Stop asserting things as fact. You can't reach that conclusion based on the available evidence. I posted links to explanations of how these values are used. How far away do you calculate the sun to be then? Show your work.
And you are throwing out a red herring in order to avoid my original question.
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