apocalypticham
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Post by apocalypticham on Dec 18, 2018 6:48:21 GMT
Why hasn't NASA/SpaceX organised one-way space trips for flat-earthers? I'd say round them up and send them all up there, let them see for themselves.
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Post by Lavochkin on Dec 18, 2018 7:18:02 GMT
Vsauce did an interest vid on the concept of a flat Earth and how gravity and such would be like.
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Post by Sifr on Dec 18, 2018 12:15:57 GMT
Yeah, it's finally here, pull up a seat!
Flat earth debates are always fun to sit and watch.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2018 17:36:47 GMT
Yeah, it's finally here, pull up a seat!
Flat earth debates are always fun to sit and watch. Welcome. Grab your popcorn
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Sylvius the Mad
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Dec 18, 2018 20:47:06 GMT
Since you mentioned 19th century, I take it you infer that science and technology are the same thing. A popular mistake. You can "take" that all you want. You'd be wrong. Have you ever read any Philosophy of Science? I'd even accept Thomas Kuhn's The Structure of Scientific Revolutions, even though I hate that book. If I claim that the world is is obviously and observably round, I've made a claim equivalent to yours. Why is yours persuasive when mine is not?
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Post by Terminator Force on Dec 18, 2018 22:18:22 GMT
Since you mentioned 19th century, I take it you infer that science and technology are the same thing. A popular mistake. You can "take" that all you want. You'd be wrong. Have you ever read any Philosophy of Science? I'd even accept Thomas Kuhn's The Structure of Scientific Revolutions, even though I hate that book. If I claim that the world is is obviously and observably round, I've made a claim equivalent to yours. Why is yours persuasive when mine is not? Don't have to read it because I'm well aware what science is and it's most certainly not philosophy as that book title suggests. Believe I am familiar with the The Structure of Scientific Revolution; the cycle where science gets hijacked by pseudoscience deception over time and it takes the death of old generation(s) for new generation to expose the corruption/lies of what gets passed off as science. You've misinterpreted pseudoscience as wrong science, because science is never wrong. Because I don't have to assert anything if the world is obviously and observably flat. But you do if your claim is anything but obviously and observably flat, why you need to back your assertion first.
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LogicGunn
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I'll relinquish one bullet. Where do you want it?
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by LogicGunn on Dec 19, 2018 2:29:55 GMT
If the earth is flat, show me the edge.
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Sylvius the Mad
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Dec 19, 2018 4:46:44 GMT
Because I don't have to assert anything if the world is obviously and observably flat. But you do if your claim is anything but obviously and observably flat, why you need to back your assertion first. You're the one making an assertion. You assert the world is obviously and observably flat, and I am unconvinced. If I have yet to decide what the shape of the earth is, how would you convince me? Or, to use my model of science (the correct one), what are your falsification criteria? What evidence, were it to exist, would convince you you were wrong about the earth being flat? You also seem to be under the misapprehension that I'm trying to change your mind. I doubt that's possible, and it's also not something I particularly care about. You are not my audience. In any internet discussion, the largest part of the audience is the non-participants. I'm not trying to convince you. I'm trying to convince them. You're not even my opponent. You are merely the tool I am using to make my argument, and the deeper you back yourself into that corner the more useful a tool you become.
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Post by B. Hieronymus Da on Dec 19, 2018 7:57:17 GMT
Because I don't have to assert anything if the world is obviously and observably flat. But you do if your claim is anything but obviously and observably flat, why you need to back your assertion first. You're the one making an assertion. You assert the world is obviously and observably flat, and I am unconvinced. If I have yet to decide what the shape of the earth is, how would you convince me? Or, to use my model of science (the correct one), what are your falsification criteria? What evidence, were it to exist, would convince you you were wrong about the earth being flat? You also seem to be under the misapprehension that I'm trying to change your mind. I doubt that's possible, and it's also not something I particularly care about. You are not my audience. In any internet discussion, the largest part of the audience is the non-participants. I'm not trying to convince you. I'm trying to convince them. You're not even my opponent. You are merely the tool I am using to make my argument, and the deeper you back yourself into that corner the more useful a tool you become. (As always, I admire your patience and crystal clarity. ) Now, I'm totally convinced of that T.F. is a Troll. However, I'm also convinced that he's trolling from a delusional, arrogant and highly conceited point of view. And I think, he has absolutely no grasp of the philosophy that is underpinning science. His point is not that the Earth is flat. I don't think he really believes that. I think he believes that science is flawed. And from his perceptions he has made up some private philosophy, from which he believes he can make good arguments to make all of it into nonsense.
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Post by Terminator Force on Dec 19, 2018 8:57:52 GMT
Because I don't have to assert anything if the world is obviously and observably flat. But you do if your claim is anything but obviously and observably flat, why you need to back your assertion first. You're the one making an assertion. You assert the world is obviously and observably flat, and I am unconvinced. If I have yet to decide what the shape of the earth is, how would you convince me? Or, to use my model of science (the correct one), what are your falsification criteria? What evidence, were it to exist, would convince you you were wrong about the earth being flat? You also seem to be under the misapprehension that I'm trying to change your mind. I doubt that's possible, and it's also not something I particularly care about. You are not my audience. In any internet discussion, the largest part of the audience is the non-participants. I'm not trying to convince you. I'm trying to convince them. You're not even my opponent. You are merely the tool I am using to make my argument, and the deeper you back yourself into that corner the more useful a tool you become. Again, I don't assert anything, we always see the world as obviously and observably flat. We never see any curvature. Ever. Therefore flat is the neutral starting point without any assumptions. If you don't agree with this, you're going to have to provide a proper counter-argument. I've provided my definition of what science is off the top of my head, your counter argument was to show me where my definition of science was wrong.
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Post by Terminator Force on Dec 19, 2018 9:08:01 GMT
You're the one making an assertion. You assert the world is obviously and observably flat, and I am unconvinced. If I have yet to decide what the shape of the earth is, how would you convince me? Or, to use my model of science (the correct one), what are your falsification criteria? What evidence, were it to exist, would convince you you were wrong about the earth being flat? You also seem to be under the misapprehension that I'm trying to change your mind. I doubt that's possible, and it's also not something I particularly care about. You are not my audience. In any internet discussion, the largest part of the audience is the non-participants. I'm not trying to convince you. I'm trying to convince them. You're not even my opponent. You are merely the tool I am using to make my argument, and the deeper you back yourself into that corner the more useful a tool you become. (As always, I admire your patience and crystal clarity. ) Now, I'm totally convinced of that T.F. is a Troll. However, I'm also convinced that he's trolling from a delusional, arrogant and highly conceited point of view. And I think, he has absolutely no grasp of the philosophy that is underpinning science. His point is not that the Earth is flat. I don't think he really believes that. I think he believes that science is flawed. And from his perceptions he has made up some private philosophy, from which he believes he can make good arguments to make all of it into nonsense. So why not point out where my misunderstanding of science is with a counter argument instead of just asserting it? And have never said science is flawed, on the contrary, claimed true science is 100% proof and provided my explanation as to why.
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Sylvius the Mad
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Dec 19, 2018 9:35:18 GMT
I think he believes that science is flawed. See, that would be an interesting discussion, because that's arguably true. Many aspects of modern and popular science have gotten away from the falsificationist core that makes science something other than glorified guesswork. Many of the larger inter-disciplinary sciences do rely on just the sort of verificationism T.F. is saying doesn't work. And he's right about that, but it's not true of all sciences, and it's not true of the fundamental science underpinning our basic understanding of the universe.
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Dec 19, 2018 9:40:30 GMT
Again, I don't assert anything, we always see the world as obviously and observably flat. You, not we. You can't speak for "we". You are one person, and one person only. You are assuming your perception is correct. That's an assumption. If I perceive the world as round (for example, because of the apparent motion of stars), how is that less convincing than your assertion when the two have logically equivalent justification?
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Sylvius the Mad
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Dec 19, 2018 9:44:16 GMT
And have never said science is flawed, on the contrary, claimed true science is 100% proof and provided my explanation as to why. Could you point me in the direction of that explanation? 100% proof is demonstrably impossible. Given that, you're arguing against a straw man. I suggest you familiarize yourself with Russell's Teapot.
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Post by Terminator Force on Dec 19, 2018 9:45:47 GMT
I think he believes that science is flawed. See, that would be an interesting discussion, because that's arguably true. Yes, interesting discussion if you would back any of your claims up and stop using the argument from ignorance fallacy.
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Post by Terminator Force on Dec 19, 2018 9:49:31 GMT
You are assuming your perception is correct. That's an assumption. If I perceive the world as round (for example, because of the apparent motion of stars), how is that less convincing than your assertion when the two have logically equivalent justification? Affirming the consequent fallacy. Therefore your justification is not logical.
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Post by Terminator Force on Dec 19, 2018 9:50:45 GMT
And have never said science is flawed, on the contrary, claimed true science is 100% proof and provided my explanation as to why. Could you point me in the direction of that explanation? 100% proof is demonstrably impossible. Given that, you're arguing against a straw man. I suggest you familiarize yourself with Russell's Teapot. Was trying to clarify this further by getting you to define your understanding of science.
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Post by Space Cowboy on Dec 19, 2018 10:40:27 GMT
Again, I don't assert anything, we always see the world as obviously and observably flat. We never see any curvature. Ever. I don't have to assert anything, the world is obviously and observably flat. Just open my eyes and that's what I see. You're the one asserting our eyes don't work. And yet you refuse to trust your eyes on the question of daylight in relation to time zones across the planet. Which is it? You trust your eyes or not?
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Post by Terminator Force on Dec 19, 2018 11:12:59 GMT
Again, I don't assert anything, we always see the world as obviously and observably flat. We never see any curvature. Ever. I don't have to assert anything, the world is obviously and observably flat. Just open my eyes and that's what I see. You're the one asserting our eyes don't work. And yet you refuse to trust your eyes on the question of daylight in relation to time zones across the planet. Which is it? You trust your eyes or not? I do trust my eyes. And my eyes observe the inverse square law of light to be true (among other things). If light traveled forever, why isn't the thumbnail of this video fully and evenly illuminated by the sun?
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Post by Space Cowboy on Dec 19, 2018 12:34:38 GMT
And yet you refuse to trust your eyes on the question of daylight in relation to time zones across the planet. Which is it? You trust your eyes or not? I do trust my eyes. And my eyes observe the inverse square law of light to be true (among other things). If light traveled forever, why isn't the thumbnail of this video fully and evenly illuminated by the sun? Stop with the nonsense videos.
The sun obviously hasnt risen yet.
If you stare at your kitchen light for 60 seconds, what happens? How do your eyes feel?
Now, I think you know enough not to actually do this, but what do you suppose happens if you stare at the sun for 60 seconds? Why do you suppose that is?
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Post by Terminator Force on Dec 19, 2018 17:16:49 GMT
I do trust my eyes. And my eyes observe the inverse square law of light to be true (among other things). If light traveled forever, why isn't the thumbnail of this video fully and evenly illuminated by the sun? Stop with the nonsense videos.
The sun obviously hasnt risen yet.
If you stare at your kitchen light for 60 seconds, what happens? How do your eyes feel?
Now, I think you know enough not to actually do this, but what do you suppose happens if you stare at the sun for 60 seconds? Why do you suppose that is?
Don't just assert sun is going over Earth curve, show me Earth curve. Otherwise it's just a begging the question fallacy.
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Post by Space Cowboy on Dec 19, 2018 17:23:39 GMT
Stop with the nonsense videos.
The sun obviously hasnt risen yet.
If you stare at your kitchen light for 60 seconds, what happens? How do your eyes feel?
Now, I think you know enough not to actually do this, but what do you suppose happens if you stare at the sun for 60 seconds? Why do you suppose that is?
Don't just assert sun is going over Earth curve, show me Earth curve. Otherwise it's just a begging the question fallacy. I said nothing of the sort. Or are you denying the sun appears every morning in the east and disappears every night in the west?
Stop changing the subject.
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Post by Terminator Force on Dec 19, 2018 17:27:53 GMT
Don't just assert sun is going over Earth curve, show me Earth curve. Otherwise it's just a begging the question fallacy. I said nothing of the sort. Or are you denying the sun appears every morning in the east and disappears every night in the west?
Stop changing the subject.
You said sun hasn't risen yet, implying it rises over Earth curvature.
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Post by Space Cowboy on Dec 19, 2018 17:32:20 GMT
I said nothing of the sort. Or are you denying the sun appears every morning in the east and disappears every night in the west?
Stop changing the subject.
You said sun hasn't risen yet, implying it rises over Earth curvature. Stop changing the topic, I was talking about the brightness of the sun, not where it rises.
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Post by Terminator Force on Dec 19, 2018 17:40:35 GMT
You said sun hasn't risen yet, implying it rises over Earth curvature. Stop changing the topic, I was talking about the brightness of the sun, not where it rises.
Well the brightness of the sun does visibly get dimmer as it moves further away, so not sure what your claim is.
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