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Post by Pounce de León on Dec 20, 2018 11:28:55 GMT
NP, try to find something why the direct laser / directed radio connection between New York and Land's End doesn't work. That should give the flat earth sceptics some headache.
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Post by Terminator Force on Dec 20, 2018 11:34:32 GMT
NP, try to find something why the direct laser / directed radio connection between New York and Land's End doesn't work. That should give the flat earth sceptics some headache. Is that how we've known the Earth was a globe for 2000 years? Because that's the question you have to ask yourself. How did we figure out the shape of the Earth pre-flight days?
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Post by Pounce de León on Dec 20, 2018 11:49:46 GMT
NP, try to find something why the direct laser / directed radio connection between New York and Land's End doesn't work. That should give the flat earth sceptics some headache. Is that how we've known the Earth was a globe for 2000 years? Because that's the question you have to ask yourself. How did we figure out the shape of the Earth pre-flight days? No, it's how we'll know it's flat.
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Post by Pounce de León on Dec 20, 2018 11:53:27 GMT
Or rather, to appease Sylvius, too, we'll know it's not curved.
Edit: In a non-hollow-Earth-sense. Wossat? Concave? Convex? You get the idea.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by Terminator Force on Dec 20, 2018 12:51:28 GMT
Was reluctant to share these two vids, as they're pretty boring, but if Pounce de León is knowledgeable in this area, wouldn't mind hearing his thoughts on it if he can manage to sit through these vids. If not, no worries and understandable. The first video you just need to skim through to see the equipment, but it still shows some interesting information where I timestamped it as it points to an article where Ubiquiti airFiber Sets New World Record for Long Range Wireless Broadband. (highlighted link takes you to Ubiquiti article) So even if you don't believe flat Earthers, there's already plenty of mainstream information for large distances. Testing and trying to figure out things is something flat Earthers love doing because it's exciting trying to figure out where we live and how things really work.
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Sylvius the Mad
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 686 Likes: 740
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Dec 20, 2018 20:00:41 GMT
The Eratosthenes sticks and shadow thing is also fallacious (begging the question by assuming the outcome) as it also can also prove a flat Earth with a much closer and smaller local sun. Since this story is proof of nothing and there is no other mention of Eratosthenes in history (for comparison Jesus is referenced at least 30-40 times in history by others, which is 4 more times then most popular Roman guy in Jesus' time), flat Earthers speculate it's just a fabricated story to drive a narrative. Just ask yourself why is a proof of nothing story being taught as proof? It's not a proof. It's evidence. There's no such thing as proof. And while the Eratosthenes results can be explained with a lower sun and a flat earth, that's only true with two sticks, not three. As soon as you add a third stick, you need a curved earth for the results to make sense. So the flat earth is easily falsified by the stick experiment. And the cool thing about science is that it doesn't matter who does it. It doesn't matter if Eratosthenes was real; it matters whether we can replicate his alleged results. And I still haven't seen a decent explanation of apparent stellar motion consistent with a flat earth.
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Sylvius the Mad
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 686 Likes: 740
inherit
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686
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sylvius
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Dec 20, 2018 20:01:50 GMT
NP, try to find something why the direct laser / directed radio connection between New York and Land's End doesn't work. That should give the flat earth sceptics some headache. Is that how we've known the Earth was a globe for 2000 years? Because that's the question you have to ask yourself. How did we figure out the shape of the Earth pre-flight days? By looking at the sky.
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terminatorforce
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
TerminatorForce2
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Post by Terminator Force on Dec 20, 2018 20:30:40 GMT
The Eratosthenes sticks and shadow thing is also fallacious (begging the question by assuming the outcome) as it also can also prove a flat Earth with a much closer and smaller local sun. Since this story is proof of nothing and there is no other mention of Eratosthenes in history (for comparison Jesus is referenced at least 30-40 times in history by others, which is 4 more times then most popular Roman guy in Jesus' time), flat Earthers speculate it's just a fabricated story to drive a narrative. Just ask yourself why is a proof of nothing story being taught as proof? It's not a proof. It's evidence. There's no such thing as proof. And while the Eratosthenes results can be explained with a lower sun and a flat earth, that's only true with two sticks, not three. As soon as you add a third stick, you need a curved earth for the results to make sense. So the flat earth is easily falsified by the stick experiment. And the cool thing about science is that it doesn't matter who does it. It doesn't matter if Eratosthenes was real; it matters whether we can replicate his alleged results. And I still haven't seen a decent explanation of apparent stellar motion consistent with a flat earth. It's based on 5 assumptions, therefore proof of nothing;
One of which is the distance of the sun, and according to how we're taught we've figured out the distance of the sun it's based on parallax and Earth curve maths (and assumption that Venus is same size as Earth). And to get the Earth curve maths you need to know the distance & size of the sun. It's a circular reasoning fallacy (where A is because of B, and B is because of A).
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N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 686 Likes: 740
inherit
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sylvius
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Dec 20, 2018 20:38:37 GMT
It's not a proof. It's evidence. There's no such thing as proof. And while the Eratosthenes results can be explained with a lower sun and a flat earth, that's only true with two sticks, not three. As soon as you add a third stick, you need a curved earth for the results to make sense. So the flat earth is easily falsified by the stick experiment. And the cool thing about science is that it doesn't matter who does it. It doesn't matter if Eratosthenes was real; it matters whether we can replicate his alleged results. And I still haven't seen a decent explanation of apparent stellar motion consistent with a flat earth. It's based on 5 assumptions, therefore proof of nothing;
One of which is the distance of the sun, and according to how we're taught we've figured out the distance of the sun it's based on parallax and Earth curve maths (and assumption that Venus is same size as Earth). And to get the Earth curve maths you need to know the distance & size of the sun. It's a circular reasoning fallacy (where A is because of B, and B is because of A). The experiment doesn't need Alexandria to be due north of Syene as long as both measures are taken at the same local time. As long as the sun is bigger than the earth, the sun's rays are parallel. The actual distance between the two, Syene's precise location, and whether the earth is a perfect sphere, are not relevant to determining whether the earth is flat. Those only matter if you're trying to use the results to calculate the size of the earth, which we are not. And you still can't produce a flat earth model which explains the results of a three-stick experiment.
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Sylvius the Mad
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 686 Likes: 740
inherit
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sylvius
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Dec 20, 2018 20:44:35 GMT
I sometimes think flat-earthers cling to their model because they don't understand non-Euclidean geometry.
Euclidean geometry - the sort taught in schools - only works on a flat plane. As soon as you start doing calculations on the inside of the sphere (aka: the sky) Euclid doesn't help you, and the math becomes more complicated.
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terminatorforce
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
TerminatorForce2
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Post by Terminator Force on Dec 20, 2018 20:47:42 GMT
It's based on 5 assumptions, therefore proof of nothing;
One of which is the distance of the sun, and according to how we're taught we've figured out the distance of the sun it's based on parallax and Earth curve maths (and assumption that Venus is same size as Earth). And to get the Earth curve maths you need to know the distance & size of the sun. It's a circular reasoning fallacy (where A is because of B, and B is because of A). The experiment doesn't need Alexandria to be due north of Syene as long as both measures are taken at the same local time. As long as the sun is bigger than the earth, the sun's rays are parallel. The actual distance between the two, Syene's precise location, and whether the earth is a perfect sphere, are not relevant to determining whether the earth is flat. Those only matter if you're trying to use the results to calculate the size of the earth, which we are not. And you still can't produce a flat earth model which explains the results of a three-stick experiment. Can't prove parallel sun rays; Not to mention our atmosphere would act like a concave lens;
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Sylvius the Mad
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 686 Likes: 740
inherit
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Sylvius the Mad
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sylvius
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Dec 20, 2018 20:53:10 GMT
The experiment doesn't need Alexandria to be due north of Syene as long as both measures are taken at the same local time. As long as the sun is bigger than the earth, the sun's rays are parallel. The actual distance between the two, Syene's precise location, and whether the earth is a perfect sphere, are not relevant to determining whether the earth is flat. Those only matter if you're trying to use the results to calculate the size of the earth, which we are not. And you still can't produce a flat earth model which explains the results of a three-stick experiment. Can't prove parallel sun rays; Not to mention our atmosphere would act like a concave lens; Proof isn't a thing. How do you figure it would be concave? On a globe it would be convex, and only half the lens, since the observers (us) are inside the lens. And again, the flat earth does an even less good job of explaining the results if we add a third stick. Do the math. You can see it yourself.
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terminatorforce
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
TerminatorForce2
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Post by Terminator Force on Dec 20, 2018 21:04:12 GMT
Can't prove parallel sun rays; Not to mention our atmosphere would act like a concave lens; Proof isn't a thing. How do you figure it would be concave? On a globe it would be convex, and only half the lens, since the observers (us) are inside the lens. And again, the flat earth does an even less good job of explaining the results if we add a third stick. Do the math. You can see it yourself. According to the globe model the atmosphere has a curve to match the curved Earth. Curved atmosphere acts as a lens and bends light.
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Son of Dorn
Fortifying everything.
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doomlolz
Dragon Age Inquisition
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Post by Son of Dorn on Dec 20, 2018 21:05:30 GMT
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Sylvius the Mad
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 686 Likes: 740
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sylvius
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Dec 20, 2018 21:14:59 GMT
Proof isn't a thing. How do you figure it would be concave? On a globe it would be convex, and only half the lens, since the observers (us) are inside the lens. And again, the flat earth does an even less good job of explaining the results if we add a third stick. Do the math. You can see it yourself. According to the globe model the atmosphere has a curve to match the curved Earth. Curved atmosphere acts as a lens and bends light. Yes, that's why the apparent sunset happens after the actual sunset. But that's a convex lens, not a concave lens. And again, only half of one, because we're inside the lens. And the bend is gradual, since the atmosphere doesn't have a clear edge (and the atmosphere is substantially less round than the earth is, because it's a fluid).
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terminatorforce
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Post by Terminator Force on Dec 20, 2018 21:23:09 GMT
According to the globe model the atmosphere has a curve to match the curved Earth. Curved atmosphere acts as a lens and bends light. Yes, that's why the apparent sunset happens after the actual sunset. But that's a convex lens, not a concave lens. And again, only half of one, because we're inside the lens. And the bend is gradual, since the atmosphere doesn't have a clear edge (and the atmosphere is substantially less round than the earth is, because it's a fluid). Look, we're not debating yet. Have provided enough evidence to back my claims, let the audience draw their own conclusion.
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Post by Terminator Force on Dec 20, 2018 21:26:00 GMT
There's a better your mama joke; But not a fan of your mama jokes, see no reason to disrespect someone's mama, so otherwise wouldn't post them if I didn't have this message attached.
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Sylvius the Mad
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 686 Likes: 740
inherit
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Sylvius the Mad
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sylvius
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Dec 20, 2018 21:29:22 GMT
I'm slightly worried that TF and I vote similarly. We're both in Canada, and I actually met some flat-earthers at a meeting I recently attended to set up a new political party.
(I'm not actually worried - if we do, I welcome his vote)
I'm pretty sure TF also believes in a deity. That's something I have even more trouble understanding than flat-earthers. At least there exists some evidence which, when misinterpreted, supports a flat earth. But a god... that's well beyond my ability to comprehend.
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Son of Dorn
Fortifying everything.
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doomlolz
Dragon Age Inquisition
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Post by Son of Dorn on Dec 20, 2018 21:32:22 GMT
There's a better your mama joke; But not a fan of your mama jokes, see no reason to disrespect someone's mama, so otherwise wouldn't post them if I didn't have this message attached. Really now, how... Interesting... 😈
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Son of Dorn
Fortifying everything.
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doomlolz
Dragon Age Inquisition
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Post by Son of Dorn on Dec 20, 2018 21:41:11 GMT
I'm slightly worried that TF and I vote similarly. We're both in Canada, and I actually met some flat-earthers at a meeting I recently attended to set up a new political party. (I'm not actually worried - if we do, I welcome his vote) I'm pretty sure TF also believes in a deity. That's something I have even more trouble understanding than flat-earthers. At least there exists some evidence which, when misinterpreted, supports a flat earth. But a god... that's well beyond my ability to comprehend. Wonder what's next after these flat earthers. Will we see people worshipping nuclear warheads next?
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Sylvius the Mad
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 686 Likes: 740
inherit
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Sylvius the Mad
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sylvius
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Dec 20, 2018 21:53:37 GMT
I'm slightly worried that TF and I vote similarly. We're both in Canada, and I actually met some flat-earthers at a meeting I recently attended to set up a new political party. (I'm not actually worried - if we do, I welcome his vote) I'm pretty sure TF also believes in a deity. That's something I have even more trouble understanding than flat-earthers. At least there exists some evidence which, when misinterpreted, supports a flat earth. But a god... that's well beyond my ability to comprehend. Wonder what's next after these flat earthers. Will we see people worshipping nuclear warheads next? Pure subjectivism, I suspect. Insisting that reality exists only as you perceive it, which will eventually become as they prefer it. This already seems to be appearing some some progressive groups.
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Son of Dorn
Fortifying everything.
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doomlolz
Dragon Age Inquisition
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Post by Son of Dorn on Dec 20, 2018 22:11:09 GMT
Wonder what's next after these flat earthers. Will we see people worshipping nuclear warheads next? Pure subjectivism, I suspect. Insisting that reality exists only as you perceive it, which will eventually become as they prefer it. This already seems to be appearing some some progressive groups. Well, guess I should get started on the 'crazy cultist' fallout shelter then...
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Terminator Force
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terminatorforce
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
TerminatorForce2
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Post by Terminator Force on Dec 20, 2018 22:17:15 GMT
You guys love to start with the outcome, not very logical.
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Champion of Kirkwall
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Post by Sifr on Dec 20, 2018 23:02:24 GMT
Yo Flat-Earthers, if gravity doesn't exist, how come your momma weighs so damn much. You guys love to start with the outcome, not very logical. Isn't that a common approach when you're investigating anything?
When a detective investigates a murder, they already know the outcome, but they need to work backwards to figure out how and why?
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Sylvius the Mad
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 686 Likes: 740
inherit
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Sylvius the Mad
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sylvius
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Dec 20, 2018 23:19:35 GMT
You guys love to start with the outcome, not very logical. You're right. That wouldn't be logical. In logic, the reasoning must always precede the conclusion. To do otherwise is rationalization, which I consider to be the greatest human failing. In my opinion, rationalization is an abrogation of sapience. But science isn't just logic. Science uses logic, but there needs to be a non-logical component to create the hypotheses, which can then be tested. This testing, and the interpretation of results, occurs in a logical framework, but the hypothesis itself cannot be reached logically because we don't know that it's true. That's why we're testing it. But what this means is we can NEVER know that a scientific hypothesis is true. We can only know that it's false, because those are the only logical conclusions available. I expect you, TF, have no formal training in logic. The important thing about logic isn't what conclusions it can draw, bit what conclusions it can't draw. Logic is brilliant at formalizing uncertainty. Science is an investigation of uncertainty. That's all it is. Science doesn't ever eliminate uncertainty, it just narrows it down.
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