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Post by Terminator Force on Dec 21, 2018 21:50:13 GMT
That's just your assertion. not so much my assertion but reality. We both know that you will not be convinced by evidence thru History, Religion or Science regardless how reliable they are.
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Post by Space Cowboy on Dec 21, 2018 22:21:25 GMT
not so much my assertion but reality. We both know that you will not be convinced by evidence thru History, Religion or Science regardless how reliable they are. Argumentum ad Populum
Yes, it was a popular belief amongst bronze age sheep herders. So what? That doesn't make them right. They thought the flu was caused by demons too. Do you go to an exorcist when you have the sniffles?
Just because it was a common belief in the bronze age, doesn't mean we need to believe it now.
Also, if someone said no one ever thought the earth was flat, they were wrong. I've never heard anyone claim that, so 'debunking' a claim that no one ever made here is a bit pointless.
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Post by Space Cowboy on Dec 21, 2018 22:34:20 GMT
That’s an assertion Twisting things again, having already stated several times I'd concede if a logical argument to the contrary presented itself. Meaning since there is no 'as of yet' a logical argument to the contrary... No you didn't. Actually you did say that. Scroll up. Taking it out of context. Because there is no logical argument to the contrary, there's no logical reason to believe the contrary. OK, in context Spoilering that mess was a good idea, lol. And why should anyone do that? You know you'll just trot out some ''disproof' video or diagram as an excuse to reject it. Also, as others have noted, repeatedly, you have the burden of proof, and science does not work with proof, it works with evidence and coming to the most likely cause of an observable fact.
What people have been indoctrinated to believe science is, is pseudoscience in science clothing. Yes, pseudoscience can't prove anything, but science, science can. Not the one making a claim, to me Earth is obviously and observably flat. That's the neutral starting ground position without any presuppositions. And there is no logical thought process that would lead me to believe otherwise. is that in context enough for you?
Claiming the earth is observably flat is a claim. You can keep denying it if you like, but that doesn't change the fact. So is the claim that mainstream science is pseudoscience. You have done nothing to prove these claims you keep making.
The default/neutral position, by the way, is "I don't know". Flat earth is just another assertion.
----
So in summary:
having already stated several times I'd concede if a logical argument to the contrary presented itself Taking it out of context. Because there is no logical argument to the contrary, there's no logical reason to believe the contrary. And there is no logical thought process that would lead me to believe otherwise.
Make up your mind.
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Post by Phantom on Dec 21, 2018 22:36:43 GMT
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Post by Terminator Force on Dec 21, 2018 22:40:57 GMT
Twisting things again, having already stated several times I'd concede if a logical argument to the contrary presented itself. Meaning since there is no 'as of yet' a logical argument to the contrary... No you didn't. Taking it out of context. Because there is no logical argument to the contrary, there's no logical reason to believe the contrary. OK, in context What people have been indoctrinated to believe science is, is pseudoscience in science clothing. Yes, pseudoscience can't prove anything, but science, science can. Not the one making a claim, to me Earth is obviously and observably flat. That's the neutral starting ground position without any presuppositions. And there is no logical thought process that would lead me to believe otherwise. is that in context enough for you?
Claiming the earth is observably flat is a claim. You can keep denying it if you like, but that doesn't change the fact. So is the claim that mainstream science is pseudoscience. You have done nothing to prove these claims you keep making.
The default/neutral position, by the way, is "I don't know". Flat earth is just another assertion.
----
So in summary:
having already stated several times I'd concede if a logical argument to the contrary presented itself Taking it out of context. Because there is no logical argument to the contrary, there's no logical reason to believe the contrary. And there is no logical thought process that would lead me to believe otherwise.
Make up your mind.
Obviously and observably flat is self evident and the neutral position in the debate. We don't all open our eyes and see Earth curve and unicorns.
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Post by Space Cowboy on Dec 21, 2018 22:57:26 GMT
No you didn't. OK, in context is that in context enough for you?
Claiming the earth is observably flat is a claim. You can keep denying it if you like, but that doesn't change the fact. So is the claim that mainstream science is pseudoscience. You have done nothing to prove these claims you keep making.
The default/neutral position, by the way, is "I don't know". Flat earth is just another assertion.
----
So in summary: having already stated several times I'd concede if a logical argument to the contrary presented itself Taking it out of context. Because there is no logical argument to the contrary, there's no logical reason to believe the contrary. And there is no logical thought process that would lead me to believe otherwise. Make up your mind.
Obviously and observably flat is self evident and the neutral position in the debate. We don't all open our eyes and see Earth curve and unicorns. <header> Reductio ad Absurdum</header> reductio ad absurdum (also known as: reduce to absurdity)
No it is not self evident. You only see a tiny dot on the surface of the earth, regardless of its shape. Your eyes are not enough to judge anything on that scale, therefore the default position is "I Dont Know".
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Post by Terminator Force on Dec 21, 2018 23:59:47 GMT
Obviously and observably flat is self evident and the neutral position in the debate. We don't all open our eyes and see Earth curve and unicorns. <header> Reductio ad Absurdum</header> reductio ad absurdum (also known as: reduce to absurdity)
No it is not self evident. You only see a tiny dot on the surface of the earth, regardless of its shape. Your eyes are not enough to judge anything on that scale, therefore the default position is "I Dont Know". Misrepresenting. It's not what I 'know' it's what I 'see.' And I've never seen anything to assert people bellow my feat are upside down.
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Post by Space Cowboy on Dec 22, 2018 0:07:56 GMT
<header> Reductio ad Absurdum</header> reductio ad absurdum (also known as: reduce to absurdity)
No it is not self evident. You only see a tiny dot on the surface of the earth, regardless of its shape. Your eyes are not enough to judge anything on that scale, therefore the default position is "I Dont Know". Misrepresenting. It's not what I 'know' it's what I 'see.' And I've never seen anything to assume people bellow my feat are upside down. It is not misrepresenting at all. You claimed your position is the default. I disagreed.
I don't know how one 'bellows a feat', but funny typos aside, how would you explain the fact that if you travel to Australia, or some other place we call south (regardless of earth shape) you see a completely different set of stars from the north?
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Post by Terminator Force on Dec 22, 2018 0:14:05 GMT
Misrepresenting. It's not what I 'know' it's what I 'see.' And I've never seen anything to assume people bellow my feat are upside down. It is not misrepresenting at all. You claimed your position is the default. I disagreed.
I don't know how one 'bellows a feat', but funny typos aside, how would you explain the fact that if you travel to Australia, or some other place we call south (regardless of earth shape) you see a completely different set of stars from the north? So lets say I don't know is the default, you open your eyes and what do you see?
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Dec 22, 2018 0:17:53 GMT
Then that's a different cause, but because you can vary and manipulate heat, you can prove that heat is a cause for boiling water. No, it's a cause for angry fairies.
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Dec 22, 2018 0:22:50 GMT
Obviously and observably flat is self evident and the neutral position in the debate. How can a conclusion be the neutral position? The neutral position is absolute and total uncertainty. A priori, literally nothing is known. All conclusions, therefore, require evidence. Nothing is self-evident. Even "I think therefore I am" rests on circular reasoning.
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Post by Space Cowboy on Dec 22, 2018 0:24:40 GMT
It is not misrepresenting at all. You claimed your position is the default. I disagreed.
I don't know how one 'bellows a feat', but funny typos aside, how would you explain the fact that if you travel to Australia, or some other place we call south (regardless of earth shape) you see a completely different set of stars from the north? So lets say I don't know is the default, you open your eyes and what do you see? Houses and trees.
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Post by Terminator Force on Dec 22, 2018 0:25:36 GMT
So lets say I don't know is the default, you open your eyes and what do you see? Houses and trees. Do you see any Earth curve?
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Dec 22, 2018 0:28:41 GMT
Agrippa's Trilemma
There are three ways to justify an assertion:
1. Arbitrarily. Whatever the basis for the assertion, something about that basis itself has no basis, and is thus arbitrary and foundationless. This is incompatible with logical reasoning, because there is no reason to hold the arbitrary starting point in the first place.
2. Infinite regress. Every level of justification has itself another level of justification below it, without end. This is incompatible with logical reasoning, because there is no starting point, so it is impossible ever to reach any point in the chain without going backward (which would amount to rationalization).
3. Circular reasoning. This is a subset of infinite regress, but in a finite set. This is similarly incompatible with logical reasoning as there is no way for reasoning ever to lead you into the circle in the first place.
This is why you can't ever know anything with certainty.
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Post by Space Cowboy on Dec 22, 2018 0:31:39 GMT
Do you see any Earth curve? I see neither curved or flatness. maybe some hills.
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Post by Terminator Force on Dec 22, 2018 0:35:01 GMT
Agrippa's TrilemmaThere are three ways to justify an assertion: 1. Arbitrarily. Whatever the basis for the assertion, something about that basis itself has no basis, and is thus arbitrary and foundationless. This is incompatible with logical reasoning, because there is no reason to hold the arbitrary starting point in the first place. 2. Infinite regress. Every level of justification has itself another level of justification below it, without end. This is incompatible with logical reasoning, because there is no starting point, so it is impossible ever to reach any point in the chain without going backward (which would amount to rationalization). 3. Circular reasoning. This is a subset of infinite regress, but in a finite set. This is similarly incompatible with logical reasoning as there is no way for reasoning ever to lead you into the circle in the first place. This is why you can't ever know anything with certainty. Agrippa's Trilemma is a belief system written by a philosopher.
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Post by Terminator Force on Dec 22, 2018 0:35:30 GMT
Do you see any Earth curve? I see neither curved or flatness. maybe some hills. So why assert it's curved?
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Post by Space Cowboy on Dec 22, 2018 0:40:16 GMT
I see neither curved or flatness. maybe some hills. So why assert it's curved? Why assert it's flat?
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Dec 22, 2018 0:40:37 GMT
Agrippa's TrilemmaThere are three ways to justify an assertion: 1. Arbitrarily. Whatever the basis for the assertion, something about that basis itself has no basis, and is thus arbitrary and foundationless. This is incompatible with logical reasoning, because there is no reason to hold the arbitrary starting point in the first place. 2. Infinite regress. Every level of justification has itself another level of justification below it, without end. This is incompatible with logical reasoning, because there is no starting point, so it is impossible ever to reach any point in the chain without going backward (which would amount to rationalization). 3. Circular reasoning. This is a subset of infinite regress, but in a finite set. This is similarly incompatible with logical reasoning as there is no way for reasoning ever to lead you into the circle in the first place. This is why you can't ever know anything with certainty. Agrippa's Trilemma is a belief system written by a philosopher. Is it wrong? Is there an error there? Do you have some other means to justify an assertion? Agrippa's Trilemma (as described by Pyrrho of Elis) also predates Christianity, so it's clearly not part of some elaborate anti-Christian conspiracy.
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Post by Terminator Force on Dec 22, 2018 0:44:59 GMT
So why assert it's curved? Why assert it's flat? Alright, I'll play along too to make it fair. So I go to a beach and see the flat horizon, followed by grabbing some water in my hand and observing it always find it's level.
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Post by Terminator Force on Dec 22, 2018 0:51:07 GMT
Agrippa's Trilemma is a belief system written by a philosopher. Is it wrong? Is there an error there? Do you have some other means to justify an assertion? Agrippa's Trilemma (as described by Pyrrho of Elis) also predates Christianity, so it's clearly not part of some elaborate anti-Christian conspiracy. Says it was written by some ancient Greek philosopher. Looks like a belief system to me.
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Post by Space Cowboy on Dec 22, 2018 0:52:30 GMT
Alright, I'll play along too to make it fair. So I go to a beach and see the flat horizon, followed by grabbing some water in my hand and observing it always find it's level. Draw a circle with paint or something. Then zoom in so only a tiny portion of the line is visible. Then zoom in some more. Guarantee you it will look flat.
Perspective. You can't trust what you see on such a small scale, in order to understand the big picture.
You imagine the horizon looks flat, but that tells you absolutely nothing except you see a very small section of something, that appears flat. Want the whole picture, fly up high enough. Either you bump into the 'firmament' or you enter space. At leas then you'll know. Good luck!
While we are on the subject of observing what you see. I tried to do this before and you refused to play along.
Imagine you are in a field. Int he field is one tree. It's dark. Slowly, over time, the sky in the east lights up intil a sliver of the sun is visible. What's happening?
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Post by Terminator Force on Dec 22, 2018 0:58:23 GMT
Alright, I'll play along too to make it fair. So I go to a beach and see the flat horizon, followed by grabbing some water in my hand and observing it always find it's level. Draw a circle with paint or something. Then zoom in so only a tiny portion of the line is visible. Then zoom in some more. Guarantee you it will look flat.
Perspective. You can't trust what you see on such a small scale, in order to understand the big picture.
You imagine the horizon looks flat, but that tells you absolutely nothing except you see a very small section of something, that appears flat. Want the whole picture, fly up high enough. Either you bump into the 'firmament' or you enter space. At leas then you'll know. Good luck!
While we are on the subject of observing what you see. I tried to do this before and you refused to play along.
Imagine you are in a field. Int he field is one tree. It's dark. Slowly, over time, the sky in the east lights up intil a sliver of the sun is visible. What's happening?
You're not playing along. I took you through my logical steps for my point of view. Now want to see your logical steps of your point of view.
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Post by Space Cowboy on Dec 22, 2018 1:06:27 GMT
You're not playing along. I took you through my logical steps for my point of view. Now I want to see your logical step of your point of view. It was not logical. It was an assertion and an over simplification fallacy. And my post was trying to walk you through my point of view.
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Post by Terminator Force on Dec 22, 2018 1:12:47 GMT
You're not playing along. I took you through my logical steps for my point of view. Now I want to see your logical step of your point of view. It was not logical. It was an assertion and an over simplification fallacy. And my post was trying to walk you through my point of view. How was it not logical? Just seen flat water horizon and observed water always finds it's level. Didn't assert or assume anything. Now your turn, take me through your logical steps.
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