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Post by gaycaravaggio on Jan 6, 2019 7:03:48 GMT
I have been summoned. I will add to the chorus of people who want a less fluffy f/f romance. At least give the f/f romances some more teeth to them, with complicated dynamics and tensions that arise due to the story or their respective backstories. And don't chicken out by making it result in an ultimatum either! Give us the option to force the characters to work through it or even continue down a destructive romantic path. As for whether we'll get that... It's probably unlikely, but it could happen. After all, we had Merrill and Isabela's rivalmance paths (and arguably some of that in Isabela's friendship romance too). There were some shades of that in Sera's, although her romance annoyed me for multiple reasons. I also support the idea of a lesbian romance where we're ultimately betrayed, Solas/Anders-style. That might be the only situation where I think a fluffy romance could work in my interests. Even better if she knows what she's doing isn't morally upright but feels the need to because it aligns with her ideals and she's not willing to sacrifice that for her significant other.
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Post by davkar on Jan 6, 2019 7:04:32 GMT
Since when did this thread become a sausage fest? Time to even things out! But how? Oh I know! BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOBS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Post by Artemis on Jan 6, 2019 7:21:37 GMT
I have been summoned. I will add to the chorus of people who want a less fluffy f/f romance. At least give the f/f romances some more teeth to them, with complicated dynamics and tensions that arise due to the story or their respective backstories. And don't chicken out by making it result in an ultimatum either! Give us the option to force the characters to work through it or even continue down a destructive romantic path. As for whether we'll get that... It's probably unlikely, but it could happen. After all, we had Merrill and Isabela's rivalmance paths (and arguably some of that in Isabela's friendship romance too). There were some shades of that in Sera's, although her romance annoyed me for multiple reasons. I also support the idea of a lesbian romance where we're ultimately betrayed, Solas/Anders-style. That might be the only situation where I think a fluffy romance could work in my interests. Even better if she knows what she's doing isn't morally upright but feels the need to because it aligns with her ideals and she's not willing to sacrifice that for her significant other. Oh man, this is really interesting. Because it's making me wonder why Isabela's romance is the only one that's really had a deep, emotional impact on me. Merrill was sweet but I think I only played through it once. I was never interested in Leliana, and I still haven't made it through my Josie or Sera playthroughs. But I loved Isabela. There was such tension, such passion, so many feelings... betrayal, passion, love, etc. That seems to be generally missing in f/f romances in BioWare. Morrigan is probably the only other woman who exhibits similar traits (and I would've loved to romance Morrigan). No, it's mostly the guys who pull that stuff it seems... Anders, Blackwall, Solas... well, I don't know. 3 v. 2, so... but only one for f/f. So yeah, I agree with this. EDIT: Dare I say it, this probably goes hand in hand with straight romances generally being the most closely connected to the main story, and thus having more emotional impact and choice...
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jan 6, 2019 7:25:56 GMT
I have been summoned. I will add to the chorus of people who want a less fluffy f/f romance. At least give the f/f romances some more teeth to them, with complicated dynamics and tensions that arise due to the story or their respective backstories. And don't chicken out by making it result in an ultimatum either! Give us the option to force the characters to work through it or even continue down a destructive romantic path. As for whether we'll get that... It's probably unlikely, but it could happen. After all, we had Merrill and Isabela's rivalmance paths (and arguably some of that in Isabela's friendship romance too). There were some shades of that in Sera's, although her romance annoyed me for multiple reasons. I also support the idea of a lesbian romance where we're ultimately betrayed, Solas/Anders-style. That might be the only situation where I think a fluffy romance could work in my interests. Even better if she knows what she's doing isn't morally upright but feels the need to because it aligns with her ideals and she's not willing to sacrifice that for her significant other. Welcome back.
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Post by gaycaravaggio on Jan 6, 2019 7:38:37 GMT
I have been summoned. I will add to the chorus of people who want a less fluffy f/f romance. At least give the f/f romances some more teeth to them, with complicated dynamics and tensions that arise due to the story or their respective backstories. And don't chicken out by making it result in an ultimatum either! Give us the option to force the characters to work through it or even continue down a destructive romantic path. As for whether we'll get that... It's probably unlikely, but it could happen. After all, we had Merrill and Isabela's rivalmance paths (and arguably some of that in Isabela's friendship romance too). There were some shades of that in Sera's, although her romance annoyed me for multiple reasons. I also support the idea of a lesbian romance where we're ultimately betrayed, Solas/Anders-style. That might be the only situation where I think a fluffy romance could work in my interests. Even better if she knows what she's doing isn't morally upright but feels the need to because it aligns with her ideals and she's not willing to sacrifice that for her significant other. Oh man, this is really interesting. Because it's making me wonder why Isabela's romance is the only one that's really had a deep, emotional impact on me. Merrill was sweet but I think I only played through it once. I was never interested in Leliana, and I still haven't made it through my Josie or Sera playthroughs. But I loved Isabela. There was such tension, such passion, so many feelings... betrayal, passion, love, etc. That seems to be generally missing in f/f romances in BioWare. Morrigan is probably the only other woman who exhibits similar traits (and I would've loved to romance Morrigan). No, it's mostly the guys who pull that stuff it seems... Anders, Blackwall, Solas... well, I don't know. 3 v. 2, so... but only one for f/f. So yeah, I agree with this. EDIT: Dare I say it, this probably goes hand in hand with straight romances generally being the most closely connected to the main story, and thus having more emotional impact and choice... I think, with Merrill, the reason why it lacked that sort of resonance is because (I think) Mary Kirby isn't super huge on romances. Which, fair, not everyone is going to want to write romances or be skilled at writing them, and I hope she finds more Bioware stories to write that don't have that element. Sheryl Chee is probably more willing to go out on a limb and write the tension required in a romance story, at least one that sticks with you, anyways.
It's probably no coincidence that she wrote both Isabela and Blackwall, two characters whose romances held some narrative weight and again had that tension you need in a romance.
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Post by cankiie on Jan 6, 2019 11:22:07 GMT
EDIT: Dare I say it, this probably goes hand in hand with straight romances generally being the most closely connected to the main story, and thus having more emotional impact and choice... Having more emotional impact, possibly. More choice? Nooooooopeh. You are not derived of any content just because the love-interest is not tied to the overall plot. I think we should have a straight female as the "plot-relevant" love interet next. Afterall, straight males have had really had such a love interest since DA:O Maybe we should try and think less about "plot relevant" romancables and focus on ideas with great romances. "Plot relevant" is a terrible term anyhow, and hardly defined at all. People trying to claim that Cassandra is plot relevant. She is about as plot relevant as Cullen, Josephine and Leliana. Josephine who is into both genders, and a female, so hey! We had plot relevant love interest for f/f and m/f in DA:I and m/m m/f f/f in DA2 Oh dear god.... the demand for plot relevant romancables has just become worse as I sit here and joke about it.
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Post by arvaarad on Jan 6, 2019 11:48:24 GMT
You know what, I’m convinced. There should be a plot-relevant straight LI in DA4. She’s one of Weisshaupt’s griffons, her name is The Wider Context, and no one believes she exists.
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Post by cankiie on Jan 6, 2019 11:57:20 GMT
You know what, I’m convinced. You should be! You know what, I’m convinced. There should be a plot-relevant straight LI in DA4. Eh, not necessarily. I was actually looking through notable Tevinter characters, to see if I could somehow find some characters within there that could be suited for certain things. I am afraid I have not exactly read the books, so my knowledge of characters around in the world of Thedas is limited. I kinda thought about Vaea as a f/f character. And Tallis as a bisexual option, but that is two female elf rogues. I would suggest Maevaris Tilani for either side, problem here is that she is a transgender character.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jan 6, 2019 12:23:57 GMT
I'm of the opinion that ALL party members (at the bare minimum) should be inextricably linked to the main plot, and how you interact with them (or not) should have an impact on how it plays out. It's fine to have personal goals that provide fodder for side content, but they all each need to have a personal, compelling reason for choosing to join me, at this time, in this place, to oppose whatever it is we're opposing. DA:O I thought mostly did a good job of this. DA2 not so much, but it was a different kind of story from the start. In DA:I however, almost nobody has any personal investment in the events. For around half of the major characters, it boils down to being forced, paid, or just randomly deciding to join up because it's "the right thing(tm)". Realistic, perhaps, but it hardly makes for a compelling story.
But then, for a long time now, I have found myself preferring smaller, personal, more focused stories set in fantasy worlds, rather than big, sweeping "epics". I'm not interested in prophecies or long lost princes. I'm much more drawn in by characters from humble origins, and especially the criminal element. A big part of why I prefer DA2 over the other games in the series is because it is, at its core, about personal struggles and relationships.
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Post by witchcocktor on Jan 6, 2019 12:28:18 GMT
It's just a neat bonus if the LI is relevant to the plot, but that doesn't take away from an actually good romance/character. I love Sera and Blackwall, and would be content if Blackwall was bi/gay and Sera was a dude n gay, but no one can say that they are in any way relevant lol.
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Post by cankiie on Jan 6, 2019 12:33:46 GMT
Personally I just hope that Bioware can actually come up with a good story for the companions in the first place. The reason the bisexual and homosexual characters may feel very badly stereotyped to some, is most likely because it is bioware with their "forced diversity" status quo. Forced diversity calls for improperly developed characters as is noted with various games and media in the past.
That is also why tolkien's words on matters like these should be taken to heart by all writers.
“I cordially dislike allegory in all its manifestations, and always have done so since I grew old and wary enough to detect its presence. I much prefer history – true or feigned– with its varied applicability to the thought and experience of readers. I think that many confuse applicability with allegory, but the one resides in the freedom of the reader, and the other in the purposed domination of the author.” - J.R.R. Tolkien
The matter should not come forced but should be naturally developed from the ground up. This is also especially hard when it comes to specific love interests, I believe.
Giving ideas I believe is a good way to help the bioware writers here.
However, I am strongly opposed to anything that has the notion of a strong demand - this can potentially result in a poor state for the game. So history has shown us. I am, at any time now, afraid that the lead director of DA4 comes out any time now and says: "Don't like it, don't buy it." This was the final stroke that now destroyed BF5
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Post by SofaJockey on Jan 6, 2019 12:52:24 GMT
The reason the bisexual and homosexual characters may feel very badly stereotyped to some, is most likely because it is bioware with their "forced diversity" status quo. I'm not sure I really want to take the conversation very far down this rabbit hole, because this is a thread about romance, but may I share this thought: If the starting point is that game romances may be experienced by male and female characters and straight and gay characters, then simply from a practical perspective you need to have sufficient male, female, straight and gay romances in the game. In that context, arguing about 'forced diversity' makes no more sense than saying that allowing Rogue characters (the least played class I understand) to have as many skills/abilities as any other class is 'forced gameplay'. A much more relevant and interesting conversation, in my view, would be whether characters are well written, interesting, attractive or enjoyable to romance. I would urge the thread to focus on the romance and not to get too derailed on other side-issues.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jan 6, 2019 13:03:27 GMT
Tolkien sucks tho.
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Post by cankiie on Jan 6, 2019 13:20:37 GMT
If the starting point is that game romances may be experienced by male and female characters and straight and gay characters, then simply from a practical perspective you need to have sufficient male, female, straight and gay romances in the game. In that context, arguing about 'forced diversity' makes no more sense Yeah, fair point I do not retract what I said about forced diversity, because it is still a very real danger in storytelling. But you are correct, in context with the Dragon Age franchise's romances it makes sense. (what you wrote I mean, of course)
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Post by arvaarad on Jan 6, 2019 13:21:47 GMT
You know what, I’m convinced. You should be! You know what, I’m convinced. There should be a plot-relevant straight LI in DA4. Eh, not necessarily. Already my griffon LI and I are parted! Farewell, sweet Context, for you were taken away all too soon.
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People are too forgiving when it comes to video games, and their focus is malplaced.
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Post by cankiie on Jan 6, 2019 13:23:36 GMT
Already my griffon LI and I are parted! Farewell, sweet Context, for you were taken away all too soon. I want to post so many google images for the griffon idea. But... they are not exactly rule-friendly for these forums
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Post by Catilina on Jan 6, 2019 13:25:48 GMT
If the starting point is that game romances may be experienced by male and female characters and straight and gay characters, then simply from a practical perspective you need to have sufficient male, female, straight and gay romances in the game. In that context, arguing about 'forced diversity' makes no more sense Yeah, fair point I do not retract what I said about forced diversity, because it is still a very real danger in storytelling. But you are correct, in context with the Dragon Age franchise's romances it makes sense. (what you wrote I mean, of course) Okay, investigate the chance of the very real danger... conclusion: drop the diversity, let's just have gay romances.
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Post by SofaJockey on Jan 6, 2019 13:30:04 GMT
drop the diversity, let's just have gay romances. Any suggestion that will stand in the way of my passionate liaison with Lace Harding is going to get a no from me, sorry...
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People are too forgiving when it comes to video games, and their focus is malplaced.
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Post by cankiie on Jan 6, 2019 13:33:58 GMT
Any suggestion that will stand in the way of my passionate liaison with Lace Harding is going to get a no from me, sorry... Just flirt with her throughout DA:I and never romance anyone else! It is, afterall, implied that she has been courted and even taken out on dates, or about to be asked out on a date!
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Post by arvaarad on Jan 6, 2019 13:35:57 GMT
Already my griffon LI and I are parted! Farewell, sweet Context, for you were taken away all too soon. I want to post so many google images for the griffon idea. But... they are not exactly rule-friendly for these forums Alas, we shall be forced to imagine the sight as both she and her many-feathered brother, The Point, fly majestically over our heads. Truly, they will both be missed! T-T
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Post by Catilina on Jan 6, 2019 13:36:51 GMT
drop the diversity, let's just have gay romances. Any suggestion that will stand in the way of my passionate liaison with Lace Harding is going to get a no from me, sorry... Oh, sorry, I just wanted to help to eliminate that very real danger!
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Post by SofaJockey on Jan 6, 2019 13:39:21 GMT
Just flirt with her throughout DA:I and never romance anyone else! Ha. I was not so oblivious to Sera, Josie and the Iron Bull's charms to ignore them. But in the next game? Yes. (Come on BioWare, don't let me down )
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Post by Son of Dorn on Jan 6, 2019 13:42:53 GMT
Yeah, fair point I do not retract what I said about forced diversity, because it is still a very real danger in storytelling. But you are correct, in context with the Dragon Age franchise's romances it makes sense. (what you wrote I mean, of course) Okay, investigate the chance of the very real danger... conclusion: drop the diversity, let's just have gay romances. As Sten would say: No.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jan 6, 2019 13:48:28 GMT
"Forced diversity" is a lie people tell themselves because they don't want to face the infinitely more terrifying possibility that there might be diverse people working within the various creative industries, who genuinely want to write stories with diverse characters.
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Post by Dirk on Jan 6, 2019 14:07:55 GMT
It's great to see that you have returned gaycaravaggio From what I've gathered here, it looks like f/f romance could do with less fluff while m/m romance could do with more. I suppose we can make a trade deal and send it to Bioware haha Regarding "forced diversity," I don't really think it is an issue at all. Just give everyone great romance options and I will be happy.
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