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Post by anarchy65 on Dec 22, 2018 2:06:07 GMT
I was thinking what they could do different in companions side quests and interactions, and what about that for the next ME or DA:
A companion that, if you treat him badly and make certain decisions on his side quests, will commit suicide. Not like Tali, because her race was exterminated, but you just enter one day on his room on the castle/ship and he hanged or something. He could be a person that makes lot of stupid jokes but give hints that it's all actually to hide depression.
Too heavy for Dragon Age? I think it could be shocking, could call attention to issues like depression, and make people realize how deep can be the consequences of their behavior, in game an IRL too.
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Post by river82 on Dec 22, 2018 2:09:28 GMT
The fundamental purpose of these sorts of games is to entertain, it's not to educate. After I get home at the end of the day, after facing the bullshit of the world, I want to kick up my feet and relax with a heavy dose of escapism. I don't want developers to be shoving moral lessons down my throat with depressing shit, kthnx.
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Post by anarchy65 on Dec 22, 2018 2:11:54 GMT
The fundamental purpose of these sorts of games is to entertain, it's not to educate. After I get home at the end of the day, after facing the bullshit of the world, I want to kick up my feet and relax with a heavy dose of escapism. I don't want developers to be shoving moral lessons down my throat with depressing shit, kthnx. Again you show how you really don't understand fiction by thinking there are actually games (or any fictional stuff) with no moral lessons.
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Post by river82 on Dec 22, 2018 2:13:23 GMT
The fundamental purpose of these sorts of games is to entertain, it's not to educate. After I get home at the end of the day, after facing the bullshit of the world, I want to kick up my feet and relax with a heavy dose of escapism. I don't want developers to be shoving moral lessons down my throat with depressing shit, kthnx. Again you show how you really don't understand fiction by thinking there are actually games (or any fictional stuff) with no moral lessons. I didn't say that games have no moral lessons, thanks for the strawman. I said the fundamental purpose of these sorts of games is to entertain and not educate.
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Post by anarchy65 on Dec 22, 2018 2:14:20 GMT
Again you show how you really don't understand fiction by thinking there are actually games (or any fictional stuff) with no moral lessons. I didn't say that games have no moral lessons, thanks for the strawman. I said the fundamental purpose of these sorts of games is to entertain and not educate. Having a companion like that won't change the "fundamental purpose" of any game
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Post by vertigomez on Dec 22, 2018 2:16:13 GMT
Ouch. Weeeell I don't think walking in a person who committed suicide via hanging is something I want to see without a warning first. At least do it like Doki Doki Literature Club with a fair warning upfront, as real people are affected by such things. That said I think the games do a fine job of "happy, lighthearted character uses humor to hide their pain". Alistair's that way, so is purple Hawke (especially after Leandra dies), Zevran straight-up says he took the contract on the Warden because he wanted to die after killing Rinna, Anders asks Fenris if he ever considered killing himself to escape slavery, Iron Bull's war-time PTSD and wanting to be "repaired or destroyed"..... these games have never shied away from people being more than they appear, and their pain being deeper than you'd guess at first glance.
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Post by river82 on Dec 22, 2018 2:18:31 GMT
I didn't say that games have no moral lessons, thanks for the strawman. I said the fundamental purpose of these sorts of games is to entertain and not educate. Having a companion like that won't change the "fundamental purpose" of any game When your educational lessons starts getting seriously in the way of the game's entertainment, I would say it does. People do awful shit in games. The whole idea of RPGs is based around combat, which means the whole idea of RPGs is based around killing. You want a game about killing to try and educate gamers on how to behave like decent citizens? Really?
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Post by anarchy65 on Dec 22, 2018 2:20:52 GMT
Ouch. Weeeell I don't think walking in a person who committed suicide via hanging is something I want to see without a warning first. At least do it like Doki Doki Literature Club with a fair warning upfront, as real people are affected by such things. That said I think the games do a fine job of "happy, lighthearted character uses humor to hide their pain". Alistair's that way, so is purple Hawke (especially after Leandra dies), Zevran straight-up says he took the contract on the Warden because he wanted to die after killing Rinna, Anders asks Fenris if he ever considered killing himself to escape slavery, Iron Bull's war-time PTSD and wanting to be "repaired or destroyed"..... these games have never shied away from people being more than they appear, and their pain being deeper than you'd guess at first glance. Well, I think while you are right when you say many characters "hide" who they are, I think what they have in common is that they have specific reasons to feel sad. Zevran killed the girl he liked even if she was guiltless, Fenris was a slave, Alistair had his family issues, Hawke loses his mother, etc. But depressed people don't really have a reason to feel sad. One bad reaction from someone they care sometimes is enough to pull a trigger. But you are right about triggering peple who had loved ones that commited suicide. Don't know how they could "warn" first though. Also we saw people commiting suicide in Bioware games before (Tali, the guy at the side quest from Dragon Age: Awakening, he actually hanged).
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Post by vertigomez on Dec 22, 2018 2:28:40 GMT
Ouch. Weeeell I don't think walking in a person who committed suicide via hanging is something I want to see without a warning first. At least do it like Doki Doki Literature Club with a fair warning upfront, as real people are affected by such things. That said I think the games do a fine job of "happy, lighthearted character uses humor to hide their pain". Alistair's that way, so is purple Hawke (especially after Leandra dies), Zevran straight-up says he took the contract on the Warden because he wanted to die after killing Rinna, Anders asks Fenris if he ever considered killing himself to escape slavery, Iron Bull's war-time PTSD and wanting to be "repaired or destroyed"..... these games have never shied away from people being more than they appear, and their pain being deeper than you'd guess at first glance. Well, I think while you are right when you say many characters "hide" who they are, I think what they have in common is that they have specific reasons to feel sad. Zevran killed the girl he liked even if she was guiltless, Fenris was a slave, Alistair had his family issues, Hawke loses his mother, etc. But depressed people don't really have a reason to feel sad. One bad reaction from someone they care sometimes is enough to pull a trigger. But you are right about triggering peple who had loved ones that commited suicide. Don't know how they could "warn" first though. Also we saw people commiting suicide in Bioware games before (Tali, the guy at the side quest from Dragon Age: Awakening, he actually hanged). I'm less worried about triggering people who've lost loved ones to suicide than I am worried about people with suicidal ideation... Having bad things happen in your life and being clinically depressed isn't mutually exclusive, either. I have depression and there's been a lot of tragedy in my life... the depression wouldn't be gone if those things hadn't happened, and my having experienced those things doesn't negate the imbalances in my brain chemistry.
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Post by thats1evildude on Dec 22, 2018 2:39:22 GMT
NO, MARCIE! YOU DIDN’T HAVE TO DO THAT!
It’s funny you say that this idea may be too dark for Dragon a Age, because we’ve seen a shitload of NPCs either commit suicide or asking to be killed. Hell, every Grey Warden ends their career by committing darkspawn-assisted suicide. And it’s not even the worst way to die in Dragon Age.
Even so, the idea is a little cheesy, in an “after school special” kind of way. What’s the point in this character arc? To show that a cheerful facade may mask suicidal depression? Honestly, who doesn’t know that at this point?
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Post by anarchy65 on Dec 22, 2018 2:40:44 GMT
Well, I think while you are right when you say many characters "hide" who they are, I think what they have in common is that they have specific reasons to feel sad. Zevran killed the girl he liked even if she was guiltless, Fenris was a slave, Alistair had his family issues, Hawke loses his mother, etc. But depressed people don't really have a reason to feel sad. One bad reaction from someone they care sometimes is enough to pull a trigger. But you are right about triggering peple who had loved ones that commited suicide. Don't know how they could "warn" first though. Also we saw people commiting suicide in Bioware games before (Tali, the guy at the side quest from Dragon Age: Awakening, he actually hanged). I'm less worried about triggering people who've lost loved ones to suicide than I am worried about people with suicidal ideation... Having bad things happen in your life and being clinically depressed isn't mutually exclusive, either. I have depression and there's been a lot of tragedy in my life... the depression wouldn't be gone if those things hadn't happened, and my having experienced those things doesn't negate the imbalances in my brain chemistry. I didn't say it is mutually exclusive, I said it probably is on the cases of these characters. Zevran wouldn't want to die if he hadn't killed the girl, for example.
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Post by anarchy65 on Dec 22, 2018 2:43:45 GMT
NO, MARCIE! YOU DIDN’T HAVE TO DO THAT! It’s funny you say that this idea may be too dark, because we’ve seen a shitload of NPCs either commit suicide or ask to be killed. It could be heavy because of the context, you just walking on your ship, which is supposed to be safe and a nice place and someone just killed himself. Context creates a vibe as much as the act itself. An example I always remember when I talk about that is Call of Duty. We have a lot of violence in games, where you go around murdering people. But in a specific CoD you go shooting innocent people in an airport. The problem is not only the "killing innocent people", but the context, the airport, the terrorism, etc, and so it got a really bad response.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Dec 22, 2018 2:47:46 GMT
I think Bioware would get a lot of criticism for using suicide in this way.
Aside from that, I am not interested in such a follower. I prefer that they be generally more independent minded, so having one kill him or herself as a result of my choices seems like the ultimate control, which I want no part of.
To be frank, I find this idea just as disturbing as the guy who suggested that we have the ability to commit rape in a post on Ye Olde BSN.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Dec 22, 2018 2:57:02 GMT
This is up there with the wackadoo on OG-BSN who wanted the Inquisitor to be able to commit rape because "armies have done that in history".
Edit: I see I've been beaten to it. I thought only I would remember that guy. Lol.
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Post by phoray on Dec 22, 2018 2:58:50 GMT
No. Why No? Because I already think it's BS that Cassandra becomes a drunk (for one night or many) if we don't live up to her expectations. They should punch me and leave, but no one better kill themselves. Edit Add: Unless their arc is a "no matter what you do, they were going to Suicide." As in, nothing I do or say would have stopped them from it (which mimics reality way more than your weird "guilt the player for not being nice enough" BS) And only if they have some other actually good story to them. I felt that Dorian was too much about his dad not accepting his sexuality and should have been that plus something else. But like vertigomez said, Zevran literally suicided himself in front of your blade. If you kill him there after the battle, you were his noose. And that whole suicide arc is subtle, and doesn't even come off anywhere close to his Primary Schtick.
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Post by anarchy65 on Dec 22, 2018 3:07:57 GMT
This is up there with the wackadoo on OG-BSN who wanted the Inquisitor to be able to commit rape because "armies have done that in history". Edit: I see I've been beaten to it. I thought only I would remember that guy. Lol. Seriously now, making that comparison is way out of hand.
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Post by anarchy65 on Dec 22, 2018 3:10:25 GMT
No. Why No? Because I already think it's BS that Cassandra becomes a drunk (for one night or many) if we don't live up to her expectations. They should punch me and leave, but no one better kill themselves. Some characters do just that , you can't want all characters to react the same way.
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Post by phoray on Dec 22, 2018 3:12:01 GMT
This is up there with the wackadoo on OG-BSN who wanted the Inquisitor to be able to commit rape because "armies have done that in history". Edit: I see I've been beaten to it. I thought only I would remember that guy. Lol. Seriously now, making that comparison is way out of hand. Nah, I don't think it is. YOU see it as teaching people this message, "Being an imperfect person who can dislike some people enough to be an asshole could trigger someone with suicidal depression into killing themselves. And they'll learn they shouldn't have been assholes." What will really happen: Oh my god, I hate that character so much. His only purpose is to be an after school special and he's whiney and clingy. I will INTENTIONALLY BE MEAN TO HIM/HER so they kill themselves and I won't have to deal with them. I mean hell, if I ever get round to playing ME2 again, I plan on intentionally making the choices to get Jacob killed. If I could simply ask him to get off my ship, I would have been satisfied, but no. Have to kill him to get him out of my game. Conclusion: the inclusion of this after school special will not glean you what you want by a long shot.
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Post by bshep on Dec 22, 2018 3:12:23 GMT
I am okay with how Bioware handle their characters (most of the time), i have no desire for some "the walking dead" type of characters that can go crazy or suicidal because of game actions.
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Post by phoray on Dec 22, 2018 3:14:07 GMT
Some characters do just that , you can't want all characters to react the same way. Yes. Sometimes I could ask them to leave. Sometimes I could punch them and they decide to leave. sometimes they could just frown at me and then leave after a smug speech. Sometimes they do something awful and I get to play judge and exile or execute. Since I want Tevinter to be darker, maybe they should even add in, "I intentionally betray THEM for once and just kill them myself." Those are all different options that don't involve them being weak minded enough that someone they know being a jerk causes them to off themselves.
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Post by anarchy65 on Dec 22, 2018 3:19:02 GMT
Aside from that, I am not interested in such a follower. I prefer that they be generally more independent minded, so having one kill him or herself as a result of my choices seems like the ultimate control So you don't like Tali, Garrus, Leliana or Alistair?
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Post by pessimistpanda on Dec 22, 2018 3:20:33 GMT
Hey! Maybe we can voice dislike of this idea WITHOUT also shitting on clinical depression, and sufferers thereof?
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Post by anarchy65 on Dec 22, 2018 3:21:06 GMT
Seriously now, making that comparison is way out of hand. Nah, I don't think it is. YOU see it as teaching people this message, "Being an imperfect person who can dislike some people enough to be an asshole could trigger someone with suicidal depression into killing themselves. And they'll learn they shouldn't have been assholes." What will really happen: Oh my god, I hate that character so much. His only purpose is to be an after school special and he's whiney and clingy. I will INTENTIONALLY BE MEAN TO HIM/HER so they kill themselves and I won't have to deal with them. I mean hell, if I ever get round to playing ME2 again, I plan on intentionally making the choices to get Jacob killed. If I could simply ask him to get off my ship, I would have been satisfied, but no. Have to kill him to get him out of my game. Conclusion: the inclusion of this after school special will not glean you what you want by a long shot. I didn't suggest this just for the "message" "don't be an asshole to people", that's pretty obvious. I think it could have a deep emotional impact, it would be something unexpected, it would be something realistic, it could have a deep story. If that's how you handle your gameplay, fine, that's your problem. And this whole big "explanation" made absolutely no argument as for what this is the same as suggesting we should be allowed to rape, LOL>
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Post by anarchy65 on Dec 22, 2018 3:22:39 GMT
Some characters do just that , you can't want all characters to react the same way. Yes. Sometimes I could ask them to leave. Sometimes I could punch them and they decide to leave. sometimes they could just frown at me and then leave after a smug speech. Sometimes they do something awful and I get to play judge and exile or execute. Since I want Tevinter to be darker, maybe they should even add in, "I intentionally betray THEM for once and just kill them myself." Those are all different options that don't involve them being weak minded enough that someone they know being a jerk causes them to off themselves. Ok, now you just shitted on people who have depression calling themselves "weak-minded". You're a terrible person and I just won't answer you anymore.
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Post by phoray on Dec 22, 2018 3:22:58 GMT
Tali, Garrus, Leliana or Alistair? Tali kills herself because she just witnessed the death of her people. Ya, she should have died trying to stop Shepard in the first place. But her suicide actually had nothing to do with Shepard at that point. No idea what you speak of with Garrus. Leliana is mentally unwell to begin with and her suicide is completely ignored as a possibility in all world states. It isn't canon. Alistair never kills himself, I have no idea what you're talking about.
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